Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 21 - From Social Rugby to International Star: Ben Donald's Brazilian Journey

From UK to Brazil via NZ & Ireland: Ben Donald's Unlikely Rugby Journey | Rugby TTL Podcast

In this episode of the Rugby TTL Podcast, we sit down with Ben Donald, a fully capped Brazilian international rugby player who shares his extraordinary journey from the UK to Brazil and New Zealand. Ben discusses his unique upbringing in Brazil, his late introduction to rugby at age 23, and how one Facebook message changed everything, leading him to represent Brazil on the international stage. Learn about the challenges and triumphs of Brazilian rugby, the impact of different rugby cultures, and Ben's plans for the future both on and off the field. Tune in for an inspiring story about passion, perseverance, and international sport.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:40 Ben's Brazilian Roots and Rugby Journey
02:22 First Steps in Rugby and Brazilian National Team
03:51 Challenges and Experiences in South American Rugby
05:35 Transition to Professional Rugby and International Matches
08:18 Cultural Differences in Rugby Across Countries
17:29 Mental Toughness and Team Dynamics
26:21 Coaching Changes and Future Plans
28:41 Discussing Future Plans in Rugby
30:00 Balancing Rugby and Career Aspirations
32:07 Challenges in Sports Partnerships
33:35 Brazil Rugby's Growth and Opportunities
35:12 The Future of Rugby in South America
40:32 Global Rugby Development and Challenges
53:00 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
• 0:40 Ben's Brazilian Roots and Rugby Journey
• 2:22 First Steps in Rugby and Brazilian National Team
• 3:51 Challenges and Experiences in South American Rugby
• 5:35 Transition to Professional Rugby and International Matches
• 8:18 Cultural Differences in Rugby Across Countries
• 17:29 Mental Toughness and Team Dynamics
• 26:21 Coaching Changes and Future Plans
• 28:41 Discussing Future Plans in Rugby
• 30:00 Balancing Rugby and Career Aspirations
• 32:07 Challenges in Sports Partnerships
• 33:35 Brazil Rugby's Growth and Opportunities
• 35:12 The Future of Rugby in South America
• 40:32 Global Rugby Development and Challenges
• 53:00 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby TTL Podcast. This week we are welcoming an international rugby star. We're actually gonna be talking Brazilian rugby and you'll probably be looking at our guest and wondering, he probably doesn't look too Brazilian, as we will probably class it. But Ben, Donald, you are fully capped, fully blooded Brazilian international player just off the back of the World Cup qualifiers.

Ben, really appreciate your time mate for joining us, and if you can enlighten everyone how we've got to this journey so far. Good day everyone. Uh, pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me onto the show, Carl. Um, yeah, obviously don't look too Brazilian. Um, but yeah, my, um. My identity definitely revolves around the Brazilian sort of culture.

I, um, my parents, my parents moved to Brazil when I was, well, they were already in Brazil when I was born, so Wow. I was actually born in the uk but I moved to Brazil when I was only a week old. Um, and [00:01:00] from there I stayed in, in Campina, which was in the sim Paolo area until I was 13 before moving back to New Zealand where my dad's from.

So half my, well, most of my life now I've spent in Brazil, which is, um, one of the main reasons why I chose to represent. Brazil on the, on the national stage, uh, international stage, sorry. And, um, yeah, definitely enjoyed the experience so far of being, being a part of that journey, um, to try and get to a World Cup.

Unfortunately, we didn't quite make it, but it's all part of the, um, all part of the experience. Right. Uh, what game I was, I was watching, I watched it, so obviously watched it all the time and wrote a few articles around it, and there was, there was moments that it could, it could have easily gone your way, but.

I've got different opinions about the World Cup qualification situation, which I'm sure you have as well, but you probably don't want to put too many heads above parapets while you're still currently playing. We were actually briefly talking about this beforehand. You, I actually saw [00:02:00] you play in the, in your de uh, well, the week after your debut.

So your second game, you obviously played at Vere, which I talk quite fondly of down, down here as well. So how did that call up come about for Brazil when you, when you said, we've got a game but it's in Spain, do you fancy come and play two back to back? What was, uh, how did that all come about? Yeah. Yeah, it actually, um, it all started, um, quite a bit before that actually.

Um, about an year and a half before I was playing in New Zealand Club Rugby. Um, so it was actually, I only started playing rugby when I was 23. Just turned 23. And, um, I was playing club for Mount Monga Sports Club. Yeah. In, um, in Tonga, New Zealand. And all of a sudden in my second year rugby, one of my teammates, he saw a rugby ad come up on the, one of the, um, the rugby agents Facebook pages.

And he said, Brazil rugby are looking for Brazilian eligible players, um, from New Zealand and contact this person if [00:03:00] you're interested. And I was like, oh, my second year of rugby, I'm just playing for mates, I'm playing for, you know, the social side of it. Yeah. Um, and I thought, ah, we'll do it. I wanna go back to Brazil at some stage and experience it as an adult again.

And, um, I said, oh, what the heck? So I got into touch with Josh Reeves, who's the director of Rugby for Brazil, and we hit it off from the beginning and he was very, very keen on getting me over at some stage. And, um, it coincided perfectly 'cause most of my family was leaving New Zealand for other work opportunities around the world.

So I was like, oh yeah, let's do it. Um, so I managed to get that move over to Brazil in November of 2022. And it was just before a tournament that we played in Paraguay. Um, so that was an unca. That was actually my first time that I played for Brazil. It was uncapped though, so I had to wait another year for my first test matches.

Uh, so yeah, I came over for those games against Paraguay. We did a, to give you an idea of what, you know, the budgets a like in South America, especially for tier two and tier three teams. We had to bus from Sao [00:04:00] Paulo all the way to Ason and Paraguay, which was like a 24 hour bus ride. We'd only stop for, you know, for dinner or breakfast or whatever.

Overnighter on the bus get there. And I think it was the next day we had our first game. Wow. So we stayed there for I think 10 days. And during those 10 days we play three matches against two Argentinian provincial teams and then basically a Paraguay 15, um, which was an awesome experience. Gave me my first taste of what Brazilian rugby and rugby culture is like.

So yeah, it was, that was, um, an awesome experience that I look back on with really fond memories. Um, it kept me, enlightened me to the realities of internet, well at rugby at this level. Um, and then part of that deal was also that I come back and play for the cobras in the Super Rugby Americas the following season.

So. That's, um, yeah, it used to be called sl. Yeah. Which is, um, super leaguer Americana rugby. And then it got rebranded, had to take on the Super Rugby Pacific sort of branding, uh, which was great actually. And then that [00:05:00] kicked off in March and we played until the end of May, beginning of June. And that was awesome.

We got to travel around the whole of South America playing rugby and, um, the states where they had the American Raptors in, in the league at that time. Yeah, that was cool, you know, going from playing in, you know, 35 degree. Humidity and then going up to the states and playing in, in the snow, basically. It was Wow.

Pretty cool experience. And most of our, most of my teammates hadn't seen the snow before, so you know, as much as, you know, it's a high performance environment, it's, it's pretty cool. 'cause then you get to see a lot of people having new experiences, um, that they probably wouldn't have had because of rugby.

Um, and then, so yeah, we finished off that season. Didn't do too well. We only won I think, two or three games. That was during the, that was the World Cup year, so that was 2023. So we didn't have a lot of test matches that year. So. I think, um, all we had was, I believe before the L Villa Tournament in November.

There was only three matches and only two of them were test matches and they were against, they were gonna be against Paraguay or Columbia, something like that. And I thought, look, I'm, [00:06:00] I don't really wanna stay in Brazil and just train for six months and play three or four games. I'd rather go somewhere else and develop my rugby and keep playing games.

Um. To keep, yeah, just keep getting better in different experiences. So I ended up getting, signing for a club in Ireland, Sligo, um, not a very high division team, but I had loads of connections there. What teammate of mine from Cobras played over there? Irish fellow. And our strength conditioning coach also came outta Sligo and it seemed like a great place to go, go play rugby, enjoy it, and um, be more of a leader, leader in the team, um, and work in those skills.

So I did that. Play the rest of the year up there until the end of December. And part of my deal over there was that I'd get to leave and play those test matches, um, for, for Brazil against, um, well it was gonna be the, the US first and then whoever. Whoever won those games, we'll meet in the final. We ended up losing, and we played Canada in that second game, which I believe is the one you probably watched.

Yeah. So yeah, that was how I came to play my, um, my first test matches. It [00:07:00] wasn't, it wasn't just out of the blue, it was something that was kind of worked on over a long period of time and I had to kind of be patient and, you know, wait for my moment. Um, but yeah, it was, it was awesome. Like I, I came off those game, I came off the bench for those two games.

Wasn't expecting to start or anything like that straight away. We had some awesome locks in at the time. And, uh, yeah, just, it's just an amazing thing. But you always remember your first game because it's that sort of adrenaline that courses through your veins. Mm-hmm. You know, no other game is like your first one.

And when I came on, I just felt like I keep running and running and running the whole time, but. Then after, afterwards when there's a water break, so you gas and like, okay, I need to calm down a little bit, you know? But yeah, that was, that's how it, my first cap came. That's amazing. But that's proper tier two, tier three rugby at the, at how it sort of comes about and yeah.

So you, as we've got a few bits to sort of unravel here. So you started rugby really late by the sounds of it, obviously. Yeah. [00:08:00] I'm, I'm, I'm assuming Brazilian rugby for when you grew up for the first 13 years wasn't really a thing or wasn't as well publicized, wasn't something on your radar potentially.

But do you say, you said you didn't start properly till you're 23. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Uh, well, so growing up in Brazil, obviously there was very li other than in the main city of Sao Paulo. Yeah. There aren't any like clubs, um, that were readily accessible for me back then. My dad's massive rugby supporter, obviously.

Yeah. We used to wake up, we wake up at four o'clock in the morning and watch, you know, the, the super rugby matches most. He was a Hurricanes fan at the time. And yeah, I was supporting the Crusaders because I liked Dan Carter and Richie MCC or something. So can't blame you for that. We wake up, watch those games.

Yeah. Wake up, watch those games and whatnot. And that's kind of how my, I sort of, that was my first interaction with rugby. That's how I kind of developed an affinity to it. Mm-hmm. But because there was no rugby available, I took up football. And to be fair, I [00:09:00] loved football. I was mad about it at the time.

Brazilian culture's absolutely crazy for it. That must be unreal. It's really difficult to grow up playing football in Brazil, like. Yeah, I love football as well. I, I've, I've got my, my team back in England and stuff, and you, you, I watch, I grew up watching that era of the Premier League with Orry and like you've got the plo.

I grew up watching Italian football in that sort of sense, and but to be able to grow up in Brazil to do that, you must be probably the best. Uh, the best sort of second row, uh, player with the best, best feet possibly. You, you line yourself up to take any kicks as well. Is the, is the 10 trying to keep you away or, yeah.

Oh, um, I'll get to that story actually, but, um, yeah, it's, yeah. Funny enough, when I first started playing, um, I did. End up taking the kicks from my development team. Yeah. Back home. So I, when I first started, like the first few games of play were in development and then our, our fallback, he was the [00:10:00] kicker at the time, and he kept getting groin injuries and we didn't really have anyone else who could kick.

And, um, they saw me m mucking around at training, you know, taking kicks, just putting it like close to the 50 and stuff and getting it in. And they're like, oh, what? This is crazy. So when the moment came in the, in the match, I was like, I just put my hand up. I was like, oh, I can take the kicks, who you guys want?

You know, and so I ended up taking the kicks, the conversions and stuff like that. Yeah. Um, I remember there was one game I got a little bit full of myself with the kicks. Um, I took one kick, like, you know how Dan Carter did? He took it with his wrong foot in the World Cup final. Yeah. I did that once in one of the games.

He took it with my left foot and right footed. And then there was one, there was one we scored right under the posts and it was towards the end of full time. Ended up taking the ball all the way back to the 50 and absolutely missed it. I got so much crap for it after the game, but. Yeah, that's, um, the story of my, my kicking career.

But after that, when I came to Cobras, I never got to kick again because all the boys can kick here as well. They all have footballing backgrounds Yeah. And stuff like that. So [00:11:00] then my influence in the kicking game went down a little bit. Um, but yeah. In terms of, in terms of, you know, like you were saying, in terms of footwork and developing those skills.

I was very, very lucky to have played multiple sports growing up. Uh, I played football, I played cricket, I played basketball, tennis, a very, I suppose, yeah, diverse range. Mm dive a diverse skillset that I was able to accumulate over time and that definitely helped with the transition to rugby so late on.

The only thing that was different to me in rugby was the, the physical side of it. The tackling. Yeah. So I didn't know if I was gonna enjoy it 'cause of, um, 'cause of that. And so into going into my first game, I was like, well, I'm either gonna love this or I'm gonna hate it. So I went into the first one and just like, I remember actually my first tackle, like it was a kickoff and we were kick, we were chasing the ball, and then it got straight down, straight to the guy in front of me and I was like, holy crap, I'm just gonna like absolutely gas it straight towards 'em and try to try to just hit 'em as hard as I can.

I hope I don't get hit. So I did that [00:12:00] and ended up nailing him and I was like, oh, this is actually kind of fun. Yeah. Just closed my eyes in the tackle and got him down and yeah, that's kind of how the, um, the spark for it kind of, you know, got, got lit. Um, so yeah, that's kind of how it all started. But as you said, you kind of started for the social aspect of rugby, which we all know and love.

One Facebook message suddenly becomes an international passion career. Look, they obviously, you must have naturally had enough of an ability within rugby to, to sort of take that transit. How does it go from one Facebook message playing social rugby to play in. In an international side on a, with the Cobras as well.

Obviously Super Rugby Americas. For those that aren't aware, I, I'm, I'm a big advocate for it. I cover it for a TR as well, and I, they've got some exceptional players down there and obviously we, [00:13:00] it's a growing base as well. It's getting bigger, obviously they just added the eight franchise, et cetera. So to go from that one Facebook message to where you are now, how's that?

Development transitioned. How have you had to change from, I'm going for a few beers to actually, I've gotta take this seriously. Like were you able to do that with your job role, et cetera? Was it just not a case of you were able to flip the switch or how, how did that work? Yeah, it's, um, it's a good question.

Uh, so I always had a desire to play, um, to play sport at a highest level. Mm. Um, so like whether that was football. At one stage and then after that came to an end, I was always looking for something else to fill that void. And then came rugby. And the idea, like you said before, like it was just to go out for a few pints with the boys, have a good time, um, expand my social skills a little bit.

I was a little bit awkward before rugby, so that was [00:14:00] another benefit of it. Brilliant. And um. Yeah. And then when that opportunity, well, I guess my first year of rugby was a bit of a, like we lost a lot of games and then the second year I saw the power of how high performance cultures work and how a really tight knit group working towards a goal a shared.

A shared cause. Can really transform the team's fortunes and with the luck of a couple of good players as well. But mm. Um, we focused on the culture side. Yeah. And in the second year, we ended up going from last to first place within an ear, and that kind of transformed my sort of attitude towards playing rugby.

Mm. Going from, you know, just, you know, taking the person on the weekend, having, having a bit of fun to actually like training hard, you know, going after it and realizing, oh, maybe I do have a future in this sport. Um, so I was, I was, I think halfway through that stage I was keen on getting into the Bay, plenty steamers.

The one of the NPC teams Yeah. In New Zealand. And then at the same time, uh, that [00:15:00] opportunity with Brazil came up. So I was tossing and turning, oh, do I try to stay here and, you know, get a shot at NPC or do I, um, go back to Brazil and try to forge a different sort of pathway? And I decided to go from Brazil a lot, well, a lot because I had that desire to go back to Brazil.

And also be a full-time rugby player and really test my limits as an athlete. And also because, and also there was the uncertainty of whether I would've been an NPC or not. So that opportunity to go to Brazil would've passed by. So I decided to go to Brazil and it was a great decision. Like I got so much game time in my first year, you know, traveling around to different countries and stuff.

And regarding your, your comment about, you know, the different mindsets. Like, I think just think that achieving that childhood sort of dream, you know, of being able to live and breathe sport and just test yourself to the limits every day, it really, um, it really didn't make a difference. It didn't change, [00:16:00] you know, it didn't make it too hard to transition into it, um, because I really enjoyed it.

But the thing is with rugby preseason in the heat and 35 degrees, it really changes your perspective. Sometimes. It's really like, not every day I'm gonna enjoy this. There's gonna be times that I absolutely hate it, you know, but you just gotta keep pushing through and it'll build character, um, mental resilience.

And all those attributes that, that come along with playing rugby and prepare you well for matches. Um, so I really gained an appreciation for it. And I remember, I remember thinking that for my first preseason in Brazil, I was like, oh, this, this is not enjoyable. Maybe this isn't for me. You know, and stuff, all those, all those doubts come into your head and stuff.

Um, but then I remember, you know, like with anything, it takes a time, a bit of time to, you know, adapt to it, adapt to the, to the reg regime, and pick up those habits. And I remember, yeah, the following year when I came back, I was a lot more prepared. I was a lot more, you know, mentally, uh, ready for those challenges to come up and I [00:17:00] wasn't caught by surprise.

Yeah. You know, and, um, I took a lot, lot better care of my body, uh, in terms of nutrition, recovery, all that sort of stuff. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, um. It's something that's gonna serve really well for other things in life as well, I think. A hundred percent. Um, obviously you've also experienced, uh, New Zealand rugby culture, Brazilian rugby culture, and obviously dabbled over in Ireland for a bit as well.

What's the key differences between all of them? What's, what did you find stood out? As you said, obviously you've gone to Brazil, there's budgetary issues. New Zealand's probably a little bit. They've, they've got budgets, but they probably play a different way. Is how, how did the culture sort of fit between the three when you sort of got involved in all of them?

Yeah, it's culture. Culture is definitely one that, that stands out. Um, two very, very different, [00:18:00] uh, rugby cultures. Um, I think in, in New Zealand, from my, my perspective. It's a lot more, it's a very positive culture. Everyone's got each other's backs. Mm. You know, it's very, you know, like everyone's tight knit.

You're all mates with each other off the pitch as well. Yeah. Kind of a thing. Um, it's okay to have a beer after training or something like that. Not, not too often, but you know, you pick your moments and there's a lot more team bonding and I think the coaching staff and the management, you know, buy into that process as well.

Yeah. Of enjoyment of having fun on the field and off the field as well. Yeah. And then know that connects the team more. And I think we're really good at instilling values in the team towards achieving a shared goal. I think that's a big thing. So we're all, you know, pushing towards the same thing and we, uh.

We also are not afraid to, you know, put responsibility on each other to, to achieve certain, certain standards. Right. And New Zealand does really well with [00:19:00] setting the standard and driving those things. And that always comes from leadership from the top. Um, we're, and obviously in New Zealand, I think into, apart from the culture side, there's the skillset side.

I think just in terms of catch pass, you know, basic skills. New Zealand's really far ahead, um, of, of, uh, Brazil and most South American countries in that case. Most places in the world, obviously, well, most, most Kiwis are born with a ball in their hand from like, literally they come out the womb and then it's sort of there, isn't it?

It is pretty much they're born, born with a footy in their hand to make sure that Yeah, they can throw, catch and pass straight away. That's exactly, and I think, I think it's also, it's also that thing in, in New Zealand, which, um, builds that culture going into high performance sport. There's also, you know, you have a rugby ball to play with during lunchtime, during after school activities.

Perfect. You know, if you're not playing full contact rugby, you're playing touch. Yeah. You know, and touch was all about getting the ball, moving, getting into space, you know, looking up and using your footwork. And it built, so it builds all sorts of different skill sets. Um, whereas [00:20:00] in Brazil there was never that a lot of the boys, they started playing rugby when they were 15 or you know, closer to 18 or something like that.

Yeah. And they went straight into a high performance. You Wow. You know, into this. Got straight into the pathways. 'cause obviously it's not a big pool, so as soon as you see someone with some sort of athletic skill, you're gonna put them in the pathway and try to develop that skill afterwards. Yeah. But they miss out on all that fun and all that.

Um, unorganized sport. Yeah. Um, development, which is hugely important, um, for building Well, those, those skills that you can't really teach. Yeah. Um, 'cause no one's gonna teach you in practice how to goose step. No one's gonna do those. Those are things that were built off the field outside of coaching, you know.

And Brazil just hasn't had that opportunity yet. It hasn't been, the sport hasn't been, you know, mainstream long enough for it to, to have that effect. Um, so coming back to the culture side in Brazil, I found, found that Brazilians, we, it's a, yeah, it's a difficult thing to speak about 'cause Brazilians are so much fun off the field.

Like love to have fun, love to do. Yeah. You know, have positive vibes and [00:21:00] stuff like that. But once you're on the field and things kind of go down. People's heads drop. Um, there's some negativity, there's blaming on other people at times, you know, so that's something that I've noticed personally from when I came in and it's something we're working really hard on to, to, to face and, and try to make better.

And I think a really big part of that is getting a psychologist or a performance coach involved, um, which could change those, that sort of environment. Mm. Um, and getting, yeah, getting those kind of people involved is gonna make a huge difference in the future. But yeah, in terms of the, the culture within, you know, within the group, we're all very tight-knit and very, um, very happy, happy people and very supportive of each other.

It's just when the pressure, the pressure gets put on us, um, some people just dunno how to deal with it. And you've probably seen that in some of our results We've been leading for most of the game, or we've come back and we're leading and then all of a sudden, like something happens and yeah, the floodgates open, you know?

So one of those things I, I, I think. I think that's probably [00:22:00] come from, as you said though, going straight from nothing to a high performance there, there is no middle ground and obviously that Brazilians are so passionate as well. They, they, they, it is the same as any South American that talk with their hands a lot don't, and like very vocal mm-hmm.

About their opinions and very, but I think probably the, probably the standout performance to show that that is. Is turning, was that Belgium game in the World Cup? Qualifiers? Yeah. Obviously that could have easily gone flip, reverse. Obviously Belgium were running away with it. The crazy red card. Then the comeback every, that whole mixture.

Could have easily gone completely against Brazil in any other fixture, but I, I think that is, is on the turn. Is that something you guys have been working on a lot to, to try and not drop? Because it could, it can. I, I, I love watching Brazilian rugby 'cause. When it's on, it's on, and when it's off [00:23:00] it, it's got lights off and it, it's like, there, it's, it's entertaining either way.

It's our, it is brilliant. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's definitely something we're working on. Um, I, I, yeah, it's, it's, our mindset is definitely our biggest sort of achilles heel. It has been for the last few years anyway. We lost a Paraguay in the, in the playoffs for the South America when we thought we were gonna just, you know, walk, walk over them.

Yeah. And yeah, there was already chat about, oh, like. You know who were gonna get the World Cup qualifiers. Yeah. In, in Dubai and stuff. So we got way too ahead of ourselves. And then when we got stunned by Paraguay, it was kind of like a shock to the system. And that first game that we played in Paraguay, there was people walking all over the place.

Like you could just see like, uh, like everyone, even though we were down by, I don't know, seven points at one stage, everyone thought, ah, we're gonna still gonna walk over them. And no one really took the, the ownership of that game, right. To stand up and lead the team in that way. It was extremely hot. It was difficult conditions, but like they were running so we could have run as well, you [00:24:00] know?

Yeah. And um, so the whole focus over the next few games, especially going to that second Paraguay game was just run, run as much as you can. Like we got a bollocking from Josh at the end of that match about not running our s and c coach was showing us all the stats and stuff like that. And guys who usually off the charts in terms of, um, in terms of meters, uh, high-speed, high speed meters as well.

You know, they were down like with the props kind of thing, you know, and it wasn't, wow. Yeah, it wasn't too pretty. And so the whole message going into the next week was just run more, run more work rate, work rate. And um, yeah, it showed when we got to, when we came to Dubai, that was also the focus and it was really ingrained in us and we were able to, you know, put in a lot better performances.

I think it also helps that we got our players back from overseas. The one thing that. Tier two and tier three team struggle was to get their best team out, you know? Yeah. Match every match. And yeah. We were with that parallel [00:25:00] game, we didn't have our best players back. Not saying that, that would've made a difference in the, in the results.

Um, but for the Dubai matches, we had most of them back by a couple players. Mm. And you could see that we just looked up at a, a different team out there. Yeah. You know, um, with a different mentality, especially when you get a couple of, you know. Pro, uh, sorry, pro D two players, um, who have top 14 experience.

You know, you get, um, a lock back who's got exceptional leadership in Italy is 15 year pro, you know? Yeah. So those things make a huge difference, not just to the performances, but to the team environment as well. Yeah. And that's con that contributes to culture, um, and to the mentality of the team. So yeah, there's been a huge focus on our mental side of things.

There's a lot of work to be done. We've acknowledged it. And I think the first, the first, um, step to. Changing those behaviors is knowing that we need to, that it needs to be done. Was the, was the gaffer departed just before the first Parago game as well? So there, there was probably a lot of issues. There was obviously, um, [00:26:00] as you are part of the setup, I'm sure you can't probably say too much.

Yeah. But was that a bit of a shock or was that an expectation that that happened? Or how did that all come about as well? And then your next thing, you go into Paraguay to already think that you've won. To get into Dubai? How, how did that all sort of fold around the situation? Yeah, it was, um, it was definitely a shocking, a shocking dismissal.

Um, like certainly the players didn't see it coming and Yeah, to do it just the one week before the match was, yeah, it was a little bit, it was tricky, obviously, like we weren't in a good spot. We, we hadn't won many games this year leading up to those Paraguay games. Yeah. It was just the, the timing of it that was a bit strange.

Um, like if you're gonna do something like that, you'd expect to do it potentially after Paraguay or a few months before, you know, to, to, you know, have the ability to make those changes that you wanna see. Um, but I guess at the end of the day, the union saw that Josh could pick up the mantle and he'd [00:27:00] already ko us before and they probably thought he could make a, a pretty, a positive sort of change leading into those Paraguay games in potentially Dubai as well.

So, hey, they made a pretty ballsy call and hey, not sure if they don't think it paid off, but. Like, I don't know if it would've been any better if, um, the previous gaffer was there. Um, that's hard to say. But yeah. I enjoyed my time with, with both of them, to be fair. Mm-hmm. A week before is, uh, that is a proper ballsy call.

And yeah, then obviously the only saving grace was Paraguay can't do paperwork by the seams of it. So it's, um, it's a big risk to, yeah. Big risk to run that, isn't it? But. So that wasn't, that was just literally outta the blue. That was a, that was a federation decision. That was not player led. There was no external pressure for it to to be happen.

It was just one day. Next thing you know, you've got a new gaffer, you've gotta go and make sure you get to World Cup. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the ins and outs of the, of the situation, but yeah, for [00:28:00] me, I remember I was walking, my dad was over in Brazil visiting and um, I remember I was going out to meet him at a restaurant.

And as I was walking over to the, to the restaurant, I just get a text, you know, say. Um, saying that he's been sacked, you know? And I was just like, oh my gosh. It's kind of like just stopped there in the middle of the street and I was like, holy crap. Like, that's crazy. That is mental. So obviously you, you were playing at the Cobras.

Are you still with the Cobras now? 'cause you are actually now in the UAE, aren't you? So we are obviously talking in a completely different time zone again. So you are, you've been on the road again. What's, what's the current plan of, of rugby for you? At the minute? Yeah. At the moment, the, the slate's pretty, um.

Pretty clean at the moment. Um, in the UAE 'cause my parents live here, so I'm just visiting them. Nice. For Christmas. Lovely. Um, and I haven't made any decisions yet. On next year I would like to keep playing rugby, but as you know, in the tier three and tier two side, like the, the, the financial side of things isn't great.

Like in Brazil, I'll give you an [00:29:00] idea. We get six month contracts at time. So there's no real, you know, stability involved with it. You can get moved in and out different apartments all the time, and you're not really sitting down some real roots. Um, so yeah, I've, I've decided that I'm not gonna go back for cobras next year.

Not to say that I won't go back in the future, but at the moment I would just be considering my, my options. Um, whether that's I continue, you know, looking for full-time rugby opportunities or, um, or finding work and playing amateur rugby just to stay in it. I always be involved in rugby. I love it. Yeah.

So, you know, whether that's, you know, playing for the local club or, um, or finding opportunities overseas. Again, I'm not sure. I do have a partner now, so I need to think about her. Yeah. Can't just keep moving around the world every, you know, year or six months, you know, it's a, it's, that's a young man's game and, you know, I'm still young, but I'm not, like, I'm not 21 or 22.

I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. So many different factors to consider. Unfortunately, when you grow up, [00:30:00] um. But yeah, I'm definitely looking, looking to get into, stuck into a bit of work next year and, um, find that balance between rugby and, and work and career building a career. So what is, what is your target career outside of rugby?

'cause uh, uh, as we all know, rugby Yeah. Rugby players aren't gonna be retired off most of their salaries. Not, not all of them. So what, what's, what's the, what's the one thing outside that sort of does. Wake you up every day and think, this is, this is actually something I wanna do. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great, great question.

Um, I always thought it was to be involved in high performance sport. So when I went back for my second year in Brazil, I took up a job as well alongside my playing duties as a player development manager. Um, so a lot of, a lot to do with off field player development. Mm-hmm. Um, so that, whether that's, you know, educational side of the vocational side of things or, you know, if it's targeting specific programs to keep players involved in, in rugby.

Um, so I had a different, few different experiences in there, and then I also, I realized during that moment [00:31:00] how much all the ideas that I had really rely on funding. So alongside that, I also started working within the commercial sort of space. Nice. Um, so within, you know, sports partnerships, finding different, you know, revenue streams to bring in money for the union.

Um, and I really enjoyed it, to be honest. And I did that, I did that role for about two years with them. That's kind of the area I wanna stay in. So either sports management or sports commercial partnerships. You know, that's, that's the area I'm really passionate about and I really wanna stay in and develop a career in.

Um, so yeah, it's, uh, it's one of those, those jobs as well that. Is really relevant to rugby because in rugby, you know, yeah. You become a bit of a social animal, you know, you know, you're building connections with everyone, you know, it's, um, and that's what sports partnerships are about. It's building connections.

Yeah. And finding a way to work together and that's mutual in a mutually beneficial way. So that's what I really want to do, and that's what I enjoy doing. Lovely. Obviously. So [00:32:00] you, you sort of did that for two years for Brazil, as you said. Yeah. What was when you sort of took that on? How, what's the biggest, what's the biggest red flag for you with trying to raise commercial awareness and funding within rugby?

What's the one We know it's difficult as it is. Yeah. But what's the one thing that potentially holds the game back that we all love? Yeah. It's a great question. I think, well, from, from my point of view with my experience with Brazil rugby is that we really look at sports partnerships not as partnerships.

We see them as sponsorships, so more as donations. So we're always, you know, you're going to sponsors and you are asking for money, but you don't really, you're not really saying what you have to offer in return. Yeah. And if we change that mindset from a sponsorship to a partnership, I really think it'll open up a lot of doors, especially at this level.

I know that people think, probably think, oh, we're only attract, you know, a few thousand people of crowds for every game. We don't really have an audience for them that they can engage with. But Brazil rugby have 84,000 social media [00:33:00] followers. You know, we get. We're having the sevens, um, circuit next year in Sao Paulo.

Wow. We're having a big event in September, um, against the New Zealand team at some stage. I can't really tell you who it is just yet. Nice. Um, until it gets announced. But, you know, we have some things coming up that will be really attractive for, for sponsors or partners to get involved with. Yeah. And I think we really have a really compelling story, especially with our girls doing amazing things on the world stage.

Um, our men's team obviously working towards trying to qualify for a World Cup. So there's some great opportunities for partners to get involved with and grow with us and find some alignment with our values. So, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important that unions, um, not professional sport team, sports teams, I'm saying, but unions really need to invest more in their commercial side of things.

Mm. Because if you're just relying on funding from, you know, the, the governing bodies from world rugby, from the Olympic committee. You're never really gonna be able to compete at the highest level. No. You need to find a way to get a competitive advantage, and that's from going out [00:34:00] on your own and trying to build up your brand, um, and attract some awesome partners to, to buy into your, what you're trying to do.

Yeah. Awesome. I've, uh, I've had the pleasure of seeing the Brazil women's as well over here in Spain against the, the Leon us and exciting, eh? Oh, unreal. Again, like I was just stood there and just, I was like. They don't half run and they just go forward. Everything's going forward and managed to chat with, uh, Larissa Henwood afterward after the game.

Yeah, lovely. Great player as well. Exceptional player and, mm-hmm. Yeah, they're, uh, they're a very exciting side to watch Jen and to see how they develop within, uh, women's rugby as well. I can't wait to see that grow. Obviously. Back to the drawing ball for the men's team after the World Cup. Um, miss out.

What's, what's the, the new gaffer? Is he, is he now been confirmed the new gaffer? Is he the long-term one or they got bigger plans? What's the, what's, what's [00:35:00] Brazil rugby looking like going forward? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a great question. Um, I can't say too much because it's more speculation and I don't know exactly what's been, been done at the moment.

Um, but I know that there's a few opportunities to build relationships with other. Other unions around the world to be able to, you know, import some players, um, to really up the level in cobras because we keep finishing last in that competition. And it's not a great look for the Brazilian public who love to see their sports teams winning.

Yeah. So if we can attract, you know, a few, you know, pretty class player, world class players. Um, maybe players that have a lot of experience, great leadership skills and have been there and done that to, to the cobras, it'll certainly add value to our team. Yeah. We've had Argentinians obviously come over.

Um, every year we have about four or five that that joined the team. Yeah. And they, they're brilliant players, you know, but a lot of them are either trying to get himself, it's their first time playing in super rugby Americas and they're just [00:36:00] trying to, you know, impress to get back into Argentinian.

Argentinian system. Yeah. Or it's players that are towards the end of their career and they're looking just to come over for a little bit of a holiday, you know, um, and fair play to them. Yeah. 'cause they have a great time. But in terms of development and the best thing for Brazilian rugby, we need those guys who, you know, are really passionate about rugby, who really want to help Brazil rugby develop at the same time.

Yeah. And it could even be players that are looking for, you know, a player and coaching sort of opportunity, um, where they, they get something out of it as well, you know, so. Yeah, I think there's, there's lots of opportunities on the, that's been presented. Um, and now it's just whether we can kind of capitalize on that.

I just hope it doesn't come down to money, to be honest, because when it comes down to money, it's just, it just sucks, mate. Yeah. It sucks. That's, that's rugby, that's how rugby seems to think rather than in Yeah. In other mindsets. 'cause now that obviously the Capi Baras have now been added as well, so that's the fourth, uh, Argentinian franchise.

Yes. I think [00:37:00] that's, I'll just comment on that quickly. I think that's huge because one thing that Brazil struggles with is having a proper domestic competition. Mm. We do have one, but the standard isn't very high. So that your, your guys that you pick up from those comps to come up to Cobras, it's a massive jump.

Yeah. Like it's going from, it's going from NPC to the All Blacks kind of sort of standard, you know, not comparing us, but yeah. And, um, so it makes it really difficult for those guys to, you know, gain confidence because they're going in from a competition that they're, they're dominating to a team where they're not getting that much game time.

And then when they do, they're thrust into the deep end. Yeah. And expect to perform straight away and they lose a lot of confidence before of course, because of that. So getting an extra two games in the super rugby marriage competition is another two opportunities for guys to get that experience. Um, so 14 games instead of 12 is, is massive for us.

And just going back to the other thing that we spoke about, about next year, what we're gonna add in. I know that we're adding in a, so going back to the mental skills side, uh, and psychology, [00:38:00] we're getting in a very experienced performance coach, um, in terms of sports psychology. Yeah. Who's gonna be working with the team next year.

So I'm really excited to see, I really believe that that's the missing the link sort of key for the boys. Yeah. Yeah. The missing link. Exactly. And he'll be in working with the boys, um, you know, in different periods of throughout the year. And I think it'll make a massive difference, mate. Yeah, that'd be awesome.

I'll obviously be covering the, the Super Rugby Americas 'cause it's awesome. Probably the best, probably the best league outside of the top 14, alongside other, other bits, but I think it's just so excited. Obviously the MLR is in. MLR mode trying to play with six, six franchises. We've now got an additional franchise added onto the Super Bowl.

It's probably the perfect blueprint outside of every other, every other league at the minute, because the continued growth player availability, player progression, players going up to bigger leagues, getting blooded [00:39:00] in an international level. It literally is the perfect footprint. The only thing we're now missing is a World Cup in South America to bookend how that that runs and yeah, I think that'd be huge.

If it, it'd obviously have to probably be Argentina. It's not gonna go anywhere else in South America, but you could share it, you could share it around, but you could do Yeah. Argentina's your, that's the, your place to do it. That's the heartland at the minute. Yeah. Obviously four. Four franchises is a massive.

Top, top 12 teams underneath that as well. And then you've got the amateur, we, we obviously cover a lot of it on the, on the channel with one of our lads that's based in Argentina and Ah, cool. Like the, the coverage on it. He, he just in interviewed INE P show, we've got Rod Garrow lined up Santa Carrera.

Mm-hmm. Saw to come on. Just to, and I, I, I train with a lot of Argentinians here and just to understand their passion for the game. [00:40:00] And it is obviously, it's starting to spread out, it's rippling out within South America as well, which is, which is great to see. It's, it's just funding as we know. And well rugby have gone and put a large amount of funding into America for the well cut to make sure that doesn't collapse.

And for clubs to go and play an international side to go and play in America, rather than actually potentially solving the rest of the, the world. But that's, uh, governing bodies, isn't it? So that's, that never changes. That's, that's, yeah, that is the thing. And, and I guess the question is, um, obviously if you can unlock America, you're gonna unlock huge commercial value in a massive new audience.

My, the question is, is that even possible? You know, is it just too competitive over there? Will it work out? I don't, I don't know, to be honest. It's a, it's a big gamble. You talk about Brazil rugby, having, having, um, the courage to, you know, sack our coach a week before. Yeah. Um, Paraguay very [00:41:00] courageous from, or bold from world rugby as well to put all their chips in in America.

So it's gonna be very interesting to see how it develops. I still think they're looking at what they think NFL. And what they're never gonna be able to replicate that. And a lot of comments and stuff. I've done a lot of articles, I do a lot of stuff around the MLR as well, and obviously the, the franchise is collapsing, et cetera, et cetera.

And a lot of comments from American fans is stop bringing people over that are on, waiting for a payday, solve the college rugby and the path. And Americans wanna watch. Americans do well, they're not worried about. Boden Barrett retiring, coming over for his last five, five years or whatever, on a stupid payday.

They don't care about that. They want to see their own get better and better and better. And a, as we know, it's the same with Spain. It's the same with Brazil. It's the same with America. When they're at the top, given the [00:42:00] opportunity to be top of the game, the ceiling knows, no, knows no bounds, like Brazilian football, all of these, like obviously Spain, every sport they're in.

When they get that opportunity, they will go to the top end. And we've also gotta find a way of stopping that ceiling on rugby. And I know this is probably gonna be another thing that I'll rant on about somewhere else, but the Nation's Cup, obviously we've got the New Nation's Cup to take over. Mm-hmm.

The rugby championship, et cetera. That's gonna be back, not back. We've then got this half-assed attempt at a tier two Nations cup where apparently. The whole environmental policy of world. Rugby's been burnt in front of everyone because people can travel across the world to travel from Northern hemisphere, southern hemisphere, just because we wanna play some extra games.

Like how does that, from, from you playing within Brazil, when you see stuff like [00:43:00] that, the Pacific Nations Cup obviously being played in America. The commercial element, how does that even make it possible for nations like that to try and develop and aspire to that, that that spot, is that ever possible, do you think, or it's an interesting, yeah, it's, it's a difficult question to answer really.

Um, so for example, with America, I think the, the, without the, with the risk of stepping on toes and stuff like that, um, it hasn't really worked out commercially from, from what we've seen with teams folding and stuff like that. I think they've, they're starting to learn now that it's not about just simply bringing in good players from overseas and then capitalizing on that by winning games and whatnot.

Like you said, Americans wanna see Americans do well, so. I believe that they've changed their regulations where you're only allowed to start four overseas players or something like that in a match, I think. I'm sure. Anyway, it's tightened up. Yeah, they've sorted that because obviously the reduced six, they've got, they've, they've worked out something, so Yeah.

[00:44:00] No, and they're all the first country to do it though. That's the thing. It's, it's, but it's, it's suddenly classed as American is all sex. 50, upper one, around a hundred percent. But, um, I think, I think they starting to learn it's gonna take time to build it up. They probably realize that it's gonna be very difficult to achieve that commercial success straight away.

Yeah. So it's something that they're gonna, they're gonna have to develop long term. And I think the problem is, you know, when. People go into the American market, they expect a return straight away, you know, whereas Rugby's a little bit more difficult. Mm. You know, it's something that has to, it takes time to build, get fans, um, engage with the community, get players as well, because if you don't have the full ecosystem, uh, around the rugby team and it's never gonna work out properly.

Um, so there's a lot of things that South America, you know, have done differently to, to America. And, you know, that's. All the, all the teams over here, their pathways towards the national team and improving our chances of [00:45:00] getting to World Cups. Right? Yeah. That's the whole idea behind cobras. Yako rays from Paraguay, um, from Chile, all made up of mostly their own.

Their own players. Yeah. Um, and then Argentina as well. You know, they've got an abundant amount of players. And before the, the Slack competition, they only had what the ho the Jag was Juarez, right? Yeah. Who were, yeah. Juarez who were in, um, super rugby. And when that stopped, you know, they needed another way to, to breed players.

Mm-hmm. And then they came up with this LA competition and Hare were in it, and then they left. And then the puma, uh, sorry, the, um, the pumpers came in for them. Yeah. The Buenos Aires team. And so they had pumpers and Dogo is up until two years ago, um, until, well, actually until last year. And then Tarus came in from up in, uh.

In, uh, Kuman in Argentina. Great part of the world maybe. Yeah. You gotta go to there. And now they've got obviously the kada. So they've gone from, you know, having one team a few years ago to having four professional [00:46:00] teams. So it opens up huge amount of possibilities. And then the best players from these teams, they go overseas to Europe.

Yeah. And they're playing against the best players in the world, week in, week out, playing 30 professional matches in ear rather than what it was 12. Yeah. So they have a massive pathway. And Argentina, it's gonna be very difficult. To, to beat them, um, in that sort of sense for Brazil anyway, because that's something that's been embedded in them for years and years and years.

And they've built that infrastructure. Yeah, they've got a solid comp, domestic competition. Solid fan base. Yeah. And they have a differentiation for football, you know, and so they've been able to capitalize on that and they're doing very well. Like Argentina always punched above their weight on the international stage, and they're a lot better team than people give them credit for.

Whereas Brazil, we're, we're probably 20 years behind that at least, you know? Yeah. We've only got one team. We don't really have a solid domestic competition. Um, and our national team isn't quite performing just yet, so if we follow the Argentinian model, [00:47:00] I'm sure that we'll be able to get players, you know, going, getting big contracts overseas and that'll come back and contribute to, to Brazil as well.

I think it makes it impossible for nations to get towards there because again, it's another closed shop. Does that then stifle games? Does that, those opportunities for Brazil to go and play other, I think it's gonna be another way of stifling commercial opportunity by putting in a pretend bullshit made up nation's model that.

Is, is Ringfenced for the select view again? Yeah, I don't think the whole thing behind that, to be fair, to be fair to world Rugby, I think it's to prepare these teams the best way possible for the World Cup. You know, if it's the year before the World Cup next year and they have limited amount of matches before they get onto the World Cup scene.

Mm-hmm. And you're seeing with the, the World Cup draw that there's a lot of, you know, there's some really. Weak pools, I suppose, or mismatches, I would say. Yeah. [00:48:00] You know, um, uh, like even if Brazil were there, we get smoked by pretty much every team. Mm. Um, but to prepare these tier two teams, they need to be playing against good competition leading up to the, to the, to the World Cup.

And if you're playing against tier three nations, like Brazil for example, they're not gonna get the right development. So you need to give them. Teams that are on the on par with them that they'll be able to compete with and keep getting better so that they went, for example, with Hong Kong and Chile. So when they get to play Australia and New Zealand, they don't get absolutely pumped, you know, it's gonna probably happen anyway.

Yeah. But at least they'll be able to put in a performance that isn't, you know, a hundred nil. It might be, you know, 80 to 14 or something like that, um, or whatever. So yeah, I do. I don't. I don't know if it's the best for, you know, the global game, but it's certainly gonna help those teams who are in the World Cup, I think.

And I think it's also, I think it's also a fresh, it's a fresh, it's refreshes the, the international fixtures as well. Right. We're also used to, I agree, touring teams coming over in the, in the winter time, in the Southern Hemisphere [00:49:00] we're three matches. And then we do the Northern tour in, um, for the Autumn series, you know.

And it's become a little bit stale, to be fair. So I think it's kind of good that we freshened it up a little bit. I agree. Not sure if it's the right way to do it. No, exactly. Yeah, I, I think, I think the ideas there, I think we've just gotta refine it. I think. 'cause there's the, but again, the top tier nations, they're the ones that the tier twos need to be exposing themselves to.

Obviously Spain managed to play against England Day and Ireland Day. Mm-hmm. Got two different tests. I went to the Portugal Island Day game as well. That was a completely different level again. There's, yeah. That's the ones that the tier two nations need to be trying to expose themselves from. Yeah.

Rather than, oh, a hundred percent. That tier one pocket being completely blocked off. Again, that's, that's the, that's, yeah. It's, it's kind of like we've done this to protect the commercial pocket at the top here. Yeah. And done this as a token gesture. That's, that's how I see it. Mm-hmm. Rather than saying, actually they're gonna play this, there's gonna be this [00:50:00] promotion, this relegated this.

Yeah. It's just Right. You've qualified for the World Cup. Zimbabwe now managed to get three games in England. They'll probably get a little bit more of a commercial, but they're getting to play against the tier two nations that they're in the similar sort of sphere to, but they're not really gonna be playing at the World Cup.

So it's not, yeah, it's not a progression, it's, it's just there should have been options to explore commercial. Mm-hmm. And physical game options with, yeah. A teams they like obviously got the Pumas fifteens, what a team they are as well. Mm-hmm. To go and play someone like to play them. Yeah, exactly. Like to go and play against like the Zimbabwe, that would've been a bigger test.

England Day was a great test for Spain. Yeah. Ireland Day was a great test for Spain. They're the games that I think we now need to see, rather than George saying, oh, we can go and join the Six Nations. It's not happening. That's a great point. And you saw with Chile playing against Italy recently. Um, they only lost by 15 points.

Was it over [00:51:00] in Yeah, over in, um, roughly, yeah. They playing Italy. Yeah. Yeah, about 15 points. And that's a bloody good effort for Chile, I think. They haven't played a a match since qualifying. It was the only game they played. I think they only played, it was the only game. They only played their game. They, you know, so they didn't have any prep or anything like that.

And Italy were, I think it was their last game of the Nation series. Yeah. And maybe they didn't have their best team at all. They did rotate, but still, yeah, still bloody impressive though. And it shows that, you know, these tier two teams who are starting to get more appearances at the World Cup, they can compete at that level.

Mm-hmm. Um, especially if they have their best players available. And yeah, I agree with what you're saying about bringing more a teams to play against tier two teams. I think that would be, that would be fantastic. To be fair. You've got, you know, you've got the all black 15 England a Ireland A I'm sure you, well, you're never gonna get a French A because the clubs won't release it.

No, but you know, um, for example, with Argentina 15, like we played them and for me they, they were the, they're always the hardest game of our international calendar. Yeah. Like. You know, they're, they're, they're tougher than playing [00:52:00] Samoa, in my opinion. Yeah. You know, when we play them. So, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot of, I think it's worth considering potentially adding them to more fix your list around the world For sure.

I think what world rugby, what world rugby might be a little bit cautious of is, you know, having too many a teams and then all of a sudden. You know, your, your 10 to 11, 10 to 20 rankings, you know, they're not actually the number 10 to 20 in the world anymore. You know, it's the 18. Who are the, the, the thing was though, the, the Spain games against those were not classed as ranking points.

They weren't ranking games. Yeah. So, no, no, I know a hundred percent I know. But then there's that debate that you can have, you know, but there's no difference to Chile only playing one, one game. This, this AU international. So there, there's, yeah, Tonga only played one because it couldn't financially make it work.

They, mm-hmm. So it's, do you sacrifice ranking points for experience? I would every day. As long as if you qualify for the World Cup. Yeah. Like the ranking points in the World Cup should not matter where you are. That's the draw, the draws, the draw. Like that's, that's how we, we need to, to look at. [00:53:00] But Ben, I know you've gotta jump on another call, mate.

And, uh. It's been an absolute honor sitting here chatting with you, mate. And for those that obviously want to now keep a, an eye on, on your career, what's, what's the plan You still gonna be playing for Brazil? You still weighing up your options? How, how, how are we gonna be able to keep an eye on you?

Still weighing up the options. Um, I haven't closed the door on, on playing for Brazil in the future for sure. I think this year will be, it will like the next few months at least. Anyway. I won't be playing too much rugby. Um, but after that I should be hopefully back on the scene at some stage. Um, I'm not a big social media person, so I wouldn't try and go find me on Instagram or, or Facebook or whatever.

I'm on LinkedIn, so if anyone wants to connect there, I'm happy to. Um, but yeah, if, if not that just um, yeah, follow, follow Cobras Brazil. And follow Brazil rugby and then you might see me pop up in the next couple years again. Right? Absolute honor, Ben. Um, really appreciate your time. For everyone that's enjoyed this podcast, make [00:54:00] sure you like, follow, subscribe, all that sort of good jazz.

We'll keep an eye on Ben for you as well if you can't find him on social media. 'cause we've also struggled as always. But what a story, what a journey and what a pleasure to, to talk to. Such a passionate rugby fan as well, as well as playing at the highest level. For everyone that's enjoyed this podcast, make sure you share it everywhere you can, and t