Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 19 - Inside Spanish Rugby: Progress and Potential

Raw Reactions: Spain's Rugby World Cup Draw & Future Prospects | Rugby TTL Podcast

In this week's episode of Rugby TTL podcast, host Carl catches up with rugby enthusiast Edward Anderson, also known as Senior Huevo. They discuss Spain's rugby scene, Edwards journey with rugby in Spain, and their raw reactions to Spain’s draw for the Rugby World Cup. The conversation touches on Spain's remarkable progress, the quality of leagues, and the promising future of rugby in the country. From the intricacies of the Spanish divisions to the potential of upcoming young talents, this episode delves deep into the heart of Spanish rugby. Tune in for insightful discussions about the challenges and excitements lying ahead for the Spanish rugby lads vying for their mark on the international stage. Don't miss their discussions on World Cup prospects, strategic gameplays, and how Spain can transcend to even greater heights in the sport!

00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement
01:22 Getting into Rugby in Spain
03:09 Challenges and Growth of Spanish Rugby
05:37 Spanish Rugby's Path to Professionalism
07:28 The Impact of International Players
09:37 Spanish Rugby's Competitive Landscape
12:15 The Future of Spanish Rugby
21:47 Rugby Europe Super Cup and Development
27:55 World Cup Draw and Implications
37:37 Debating the Future of Rugby Tournaments
38:45 Challenges and Opportunities for Emerging Rugby Nations
40:03 Predicting Outcomes for Upcoming Rugby Matches
41:39 Analyzing Team Strategies and Player Performances
47:54 The Evolution and Potential of Spanish Rugby
49:31 Comparing Rugby Levels: Spain vs. England
52:00 World Cup Predictions and Reflections
53:16 Spain's Rugby Development and Future Prospects
01:12:33 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Transcript

Ep19_Video

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Rugby through the Leagues podcast. We have actually found one of those rare unicorns as well. Uh, English speaking, Spanish loving rugby rugby fan here, bumped into him over at the Island Day game alongside Keith. And we've been planning this all the way through the November Internationals, and we're doing this off the back of the, the World Cup draws.

This's gonna come out a few, about a week or so afterwards, but this is a raw reaction to how Spain have done and how we now feel Spain will do at the World Cup, obviously, as long as it's based on current form. So Sevo really appreciate your time for joining us. For those that don't understand Sevo, what's your real name again and who you are, what do you do and what's the, what's the love of the game?

Um, yeah, so name's obviously Edwards Edward Anderson. Um, although. In my, everyone in Spain calls me Edward Stewart. Perfect. 'cause obviously in Spain [00:01:00] your middle name's your actual surname. Yeah. Or Gidi Gidi. Yeah. Which for people who don't know, just means foreigner. Yeah. Or eng English. So that's my name.

English L is usually what we get called down here. So yeah, I've, well, I've not, um, you know, I've got a flatmate who's from Spain who is Spanish and will defend Nedon to the death. So I've not done balcony yet, but there's still time. Carl. Yeah. So in terms of just getting into rugby here in Spain, in kind of, not post pandemic, but the autumn of the pandemic, if you will, in maybe February, March, 2021.

Um, I was, obviously, I'd moved to Madrid. I'd been watching a few games in Santander when they had, Cantabria had two teams in the top division then, which is kind of. Ridiculous to imagine. Now, um, also get me to explain things 'cause I'm talking to you, assuming you know these places, which you do. Yeah. But people listening in Cantabria might as well be bloody Narnia for some people.

Yeah. So, um, [00:02:00] it's in the north of Spain, outside of what was the traditional rugby heartland. Um, so there were signs of growth even five years ago. Yeah. Um, what happened? What happened? Well, we know what happened. The pandemic happened. I moved to Madrid, but there were still bits of rugby going on. And the way I kind of discovered Rugby and Madrid and how, what was there was through a sevens tournament that Spain were hosting.

You weren't allowed fans in, but you could go as press. Perfect. I was desperate to get out of the house and do something anyway. And it's at Cisneros. If anyone's not been to Spain to watch rugby or been to Madrid, to El Central, it's incredible. I just, it, the second I was there, I could not believe that somewhere that beautiful in the middle of a city that they couldn't touch existed.

Yeah. And since then I've kind of followed it around and the Spanish Federation keep giving me press passes because until you popped up Carl, they didn't have anyone at press conferences [00:03:00] to ask the opposing managers or coaches questions in English. Yeah. So you're doing me out of a job here, mate. That right.

But yeah, that's how I've, that's how I've came into it. Yeah. And we've been following it ever since through the bitterness of. A qualification for a world rugby cup in France that wasn't, yeah. Um, the time before that when they should have gone, and they didn't, people forget this, but if they hadn't been booted out in Japan, the first game at that rugby World Cup would've been Japan versus Spain.

Awesome. 'cause Japan played Russia and Russia with a team who replaced us. Yeah. Um, so it's like Spain have always been there, and now it's just nice that, well, people like you and hopefully a few more people who are trying to, you know, give it the publicity that it deserves and a bit more awareness about the quality of Spanish rugby.

Yeah. And it's actually, it's getting there. It's getting there car. Exactly. That and obviously I, I now sort of fully embrace the, the weekly [00:04:00] updates of the division, Onor the elite. Obviously the division OB, we've got the copper de rate, we've got plenty of rugby available within Spain that people don't realize the quality that is there.

And obviously we've now got the Iberians actually being taken seriously by the federation because they obviously, with the centralized contracts, bringing international players back to the top league of Spanish, Spanish rugby, even though they don't play in there most of the weeks because of the Iberians and obviously November internationals.

But yeah, we can get, we can get onto that. Yeah. But the development is there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and you can see by the, the quality of the games and like the school lines and the most leagues, apart from probably Division On or B Group A with get, so at the minute anyone could win those leagues at certain times.

There's larger, there's larger packs and there's separation, but you've got players that are still playing international level rugby. But [00:05:00] playing in the second tier in the division and stuff, and there isn't many, obviously you'll go back to England, you'll, you, you'll see in the championship there's tears down.

But outside France, which has got obviously got four pro divisions, Spain seems to be one of the quickest growing parts within Europe of, of, of actual development. Of, of clubs and availability. 'cause you look at the, the under 23 model and everything like that as well is literally some of those could easily flip straight into a, a first team with no issues.

As, as you've probably seen as well. Obviously our bread and butter is the club game. Yeah. Right. The division, honor, I think is a great, is a great fund lead. We've got genuine competitive now there's problems with it. Is it too concentrated in Madrid and Via lid? Maybe. But you know, there's strength in that nucleus there.

And what people might not be aware is we had a cup [00:06:00] final in May for, you know, the Spanish Rugby Cup final. Yeah. Okay. Not big. Whatever. There's 20,000 people there. Yeah. Like people are now losing their minds about, oh, Newcastle have got eight, 9,000 fans now. Isn't it fantastic? Yeah, yeah. You've got a global conglomerate behind you with hundreds of millions of pounds.

You've got 8,000 Spanish rugby outside of the Sevens program. It's not run down the back of the sofa. It's run by a lot of hardworking sponsors, but there's not huge money in this. Um, to get 20,000 people. The, the market's there, you know, it's so, it's not, it's not just one offs. Um, but what Spain's always lacked is the exposure.

I think your point about the under 20 threes is true. Um, Spain qualified for the under twenties when they got through in the sevens kind of anywhere that Spain is allowed to reach their natural level. Yeah. Their natural level is the top tier. Yeah. And we look at the under eighteens who beat Georgia [00:07:00] Yeah.

Uh, in November as well. I think that may be the biggest result of November actually, to be fair. Nevermind. Yeah. England so close to winning Fiji, running them to the last minute. But in that under eighteens team who beat Georgia, there was eight lads playing in France like so. Spain might have the kind of perfect model of a product now where maybe in the past we talked about how can we professionalize the league.

Yeah, definitely. There's things that can be done on infrastructure. Yeah. But the Argentinian model looks every year more and more likely for Spain. A great quality, semi-professional game. Yeah. That really keeps hold of that tradition, but a clear pathway now for boys. Yeah. To be like, well if you are good enough, the Spanish League is the proving ground and then you go and get your contract in France.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, obviously I had the pleasure of sitting down with uh, Mario Bacardi as well before he moved over to over to France and he obviously explained the [00:08:00] situation. Being in England. England, obviously wasps then obviously ending back at Alend, the opportunity to go and still be dabbling your toe, even in the third tier of France with the option to get to the produ was, was a big draw, but.

I believe if the division Onor carries on the way it's going, that draw for those players that are still looking in the second and third tier of French rugby, they're gonna want to come and play back in the top tier of Spain. And there's gonna be other options for other, other nations, other rugby Europe options there.

There's enough players out there that are still able to play at a level now this season, and obviously in the future as it grows. I think it's, uh, it's only good for Europe as well as as that, and as we know the, the Spanish issue with French availability, the more players we keep in Spain, the the better.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's that kind of. That kind of vicious and virtuous circle, [00:09:00] right? Mm-hmm. You know, I remember doing a, a piece for rugby journal a a couple of years back when we were at Alcon Bend. Yes. Taking some photos with uh, nacho Hernandez. Fantastic. Yeah. Photographer in general, but also for Spanish rugby.

We were speaking there and they were talking about historically we've all just played at university and then that was that. Mm-hmm. So they went from uni and then it stayed part-time. Is it a negative that players are in France? Obviously in a perfect world, yeah. Give me 50 million. Yeah. Quid and uh, I can set up a Rugby Uni team and Zara Gotha will get one in asterisk and lads can play.

Yeah. That virtuous circle of Spain qualifying is gonna grow the interest. And I think your point is valid, not about the top tier, but no one's competing. No. With France, in terms of the club game, no. And in a way that's a blessing. I've got no sympathy for people in England who whine about lads going over to France.

I can't blame it. Or the lads may be from Wales who are gonna Exodus. It's [00:10:00] like you couldn't give a rat's ass when our players were never available for us. So we welcome to the new world. And what it has done now is it's given lads that were, as we can see, who were just as good as that under eighteens and maybe under 20 ones.

But after that real life. Yeah. And getting a real job gets in the way, but now there is a pathway for them. Yeah. So I think it's gonna be, it is a negative and not holding them. But now that you can show lads there is a clear pathway that should change mentalities. And if the focus is on youth development.

You're not gonna have to worry about the professional contracts 'cause France will do that for you. Yeah. Oh well I was obviously Mar when I was speaking to Mario, he is managed to actually get it written into his agreement that he's available for all Spain games. I think that's gonna be way more common.

Yeah. And, and obviously that was the reason why he explored that and the option come up and he, he bit, he bit bit their hand off and took the opportunity 'cause he wants, he's [00:11:00] got bigger aspirations as, as you saw probably in the episode that I did with him, that he wants to be that captain at the World Cup.

He wants to be able to be available for Spain. He wants to be able to be that start in six. He wants to be able to pull that shirt on every opportunity. But there's also massive competition and I think that's also exciting to see at 10. Obviously we've got Vinessa who plays exceptional exceptional rugby at times.

You've got Bon Tempo that's obviously just got a cannon at 12, but then you've got. Lucy on the ardi, that is it in a volley for nearly a 50, 22 off his left. P And you think the talent that we've got available as a nation now is who's the next superstar that's coming in behind? Because there, there is, yeah.

I mean, I love, we are claiming Spain, but we should, I think, um, you know, and it's not just, obviously I was looking at the England game, you [00:12:00] know, I've got the, I've got the squad in front of me. You're talking about Bonti Gonzalo Typo, who's played before. He wasn't available in that game. But where is he playing at Massey?

They're in the playoffs of the French third division. Yeah. Right. So. Uh, you know, you know Yeah. Obviously John Merker, it's unfair. Yeah. That, that lad should not be allowed to play against tier two nations. Genuinely. When I watched him for the first time against Holland. Yeah. For the qualifier last year, right?

Yeah. Or or this year. Yeah. The right rugby, you can't remember. It feels like a life member. Yeah. The Rugby Europe champion. He was different gravy. Yeah. Like absolute animal. He just, just needed to win one game. Now. Yeah. Again, I'm not a fan of that, but you watched him and I do mean literally. Yeah. I know.

If anyone listens to the egg chasers, you can clip this one. He had literally people grabbing his legs and he was carrying them Yeah. Carrying two lads on the floor. You just think Yeah. The, the standard. Yeah. And people say, okay, that's only one player. It's not one player. Alro Garcia [00:13:00] who ran holes through England Day.

Yeah, absolutely. Punching holes. Yeah. Um, whereas he Stad Fran say, and coming back to your point about Mario. He's good enough to play now in France, but again, he was on the losing side of a semi-final in division to honor last year. Yeah. So if he's good enough to be there now. Well, how many other lads are good enough to be there and as the salary cap hurts other nations like England.

Yeah. Because they're not gonna be able to compete with France. Where are you gonna get your other players from? Well, I can think of a market. Yeah. That's relatively untapped. You know, we've got the lying bugger to me. Um, Alejandro Laga, AKA Chino. I did an interview with him when he was playing for Cisneros a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah. Uh, capped at fifteens, like really good player. [00:14:00] He's playing for free. He's playing for him free at Cisneros. Like, it does amaze me why no one's looking at this league and going, okay, we'll have him, him and him. Mm. He's a captain International, so you should be able to get him in. You know, these players should be available a, a fraction of the cost.

But, um, I don't think, as your point is, I don't think we're far away from people seeing the depth and, and picking up these players. Like, you know, and again, the fact that Mario could bounce back here and the quality of the Spanish division is sufficient enough now Yeah. To be seen as a place that you can play to go and get a contract in France, it doesn't hurt.

Oh, no, exactly. And as we've, we've seen firsthand the amount of players that could probably walk into. Easily a tier three sided France, or obviously you've got other options like whales are gonna have to find some other option to field some of these players. 'cause the Welsh internationals aren't gonna stay for the last two [00:15:00] regions.

So there's gonna be play, where are they gonna go? Where are they gonna come to Spain? Are, is there an option for them to come and play in the division? Onor? Is there, are they gonna be looking, trying? Because if they go and fill the boots in tier two, tier three in, in France, then more players are gonna stay here.

More players are gonna stay in Portugal. And like, I also had the, uh, the luxury of chatting with Thomas Appleton, the Portuguese captain, and he stayed at Kaul for, for his career. He did a little bit in England, explored other options, but he wanted. He'd become a doctor and everything like that and they, they've managed to look after him by staying there.

There's plenty of options for Spanish players probably to do a similar model here. I think there are, but the geography makes it almost undeniable, like, you know Yeah. With so many good lads playing in the bass country. Yeah. You know, if I'm in San Sebastian or I'm in Bilbao, definitely San Sebastian or in and around that area.

Yeah. You know, they're not living in the city, they're in the countryside. Yeah. You know, the [00:16:00] farmers' boys, you could do that commute in a day to go to France. So I think I've kind of got to a point where I just accept that they're gone Agree that, that you're not gonna hold onto that middle tier, but as Argentina showed, you don't have to.

Yeah. You don't. You don't have to. Everyone's gonna have to deal with the problem. Losing players Wales, as you said. Well, it's gonna hurt them until they change their model. England are getting hurt by it. Yeah. They lost, um, Willis, wasn't it? You know, I'm not an English rugby expert, so I don't pretend to be one, but I think they had a lad who was already given a central contract though.

Yeah. And and he he still bounced to France. Yeah. You know, so I think the difference is as the depth for teams like England and Wales weakens because if they're not playing in that country, they're not available. And if you are on that edge of being available for an international, you're just gonna leave and go and get guaranteed money.

Yeah. You're just gonna leave and get guaranteed money. [00:17:00] Especially after wasp go bust, Irish go bust. Whereas Spain, are we gonna have more or. You know, fewer players who are playing in the top 14 in the next two years. Yeah. Well I think it's only going one way. Yeah, agreed. And obviously we've got the, we've got the depth, we've got the availability of, of other clubs and, but it, as you said, the geography of the division Onor is very similar to the way the English prem set up at the minute is it's, it you got, you got the perfect pocket with Madrids and effectively London and then you've got a couple of clubs obviously up in via the lids, which is similar to the west country.

Then you've got bits that have kind of mist and Yeah, it, the geography doesn't sit, but the way that, I think, the way that they're trying to set the new promotion relegation model out, that will settle itself out pretty sharpish as well. Yeah. So, um, for me. In, [00:18:00] in England, always more of a rugby league fan.

Yeah, fair enough. Happy, happy to say it. So it always, you know, Spanish rugby always looks more similar to Rugby League to me and having, as you said, these kind of very isolated pockets of intense fandom, like the fans here in vitally are just as passionate as you'd get anywhere else. Yeah. In fact, even more so.

'cause there's no glamor in getting pissed on in the middle of November in a fan zone that looks like a water bark. Yeah. But they're still there. Yeah. Um, yeah. On the, on the model of two tens. Yeah. I think. You know, do who wants to talk about franchising? No one. Okay, fine. But when you've got a city the size of, say, Zara Gotha, which has got half a million people.

Yeah. It, for people who don't know, it's directly in between Barcelona and Madrid. And it's probably gonna be with the available land, with the data centers, it's probably gonna be the fastest growing city. Yeah. Outside of those two places in Spain, there's almost, I'm not saying [00:19:00] there's nothing, but there's no team at that level.

As I said before, we lost two teams in Can Ria, you got, you got Fen fighting in the, the division on, uh, on or Elite and doing well, but are they gonna be that next level up? Probably not straight away, but they, they've got a good enough sort of team banging the drum. But as you said, there's normally a couple of teams there.

You've got, and as we've seen all the way already through the transfer window, effectively this, this season, you've got players that do well in the division, do Unor Elite. Already snatched and grabbed one lad got taken from Division on B, and he's now playing for CIAs in, uh, in the division Onor. And you think, hold on a minute, where does that come from?

I think the other reason why I consider it similar to more to rugby league is the lack of infrastructure. Yeah. For a lot of teams. Um, the player base is there, but you know, even Barcelona, rugby, yeah. They're playing in a, I don't wanna say like a park pitch, but it's, it's not far off, you [00:20:00] know? And I can't blame any lad.

You know, I've not played rugby. You've played rugby, you know, a, a, a higher level if you will. Yeah. But, you know, I'm just a, an ex-football fan. Yeah. You know, I came from chop, jet rugby was not a big thing. Nah. Then caught a bit of rugby league. So, and this is why getting to a world Cup, not to bring it back rain, but it's so important 'cause of the level of exposure that this could get for the sport.

Okay. If it was France, it would've been perfect. Yeah. Same time zone. Easy for fans to go. We'd have been the exciting, colorful team that everyone's talking about. Yeah. But the fact that Spain qualified and then a week later they were on. Oh, what's that bloody TV show called? Um, oh, it's on that T Zt Man Dresses TV or something That is, yeah.

No lados. No, I'm talking about the chat show. Ah, yeah, the chat show, which had about a million viewers. Spain's on there doing a mock scrum. Yeah. In that one, two minute clip that got more coverage for the sport than it's had in four years. Yeah. You know, so [00:21:00] qualifying gives the exposure and it's, how do you look at it?

Do you look at it as a chicken or an egg? Okay. Those young lads who are playing, you might lose them if you're say, Otha, but would they be coming are, were you more likely to get them. If they couldn't get a career in France or if they could, the fact that there is now a pathway should make it a hell of a lot easier to keep hold of these lads till they're adults.

Because we used to lose all of these lads, not to rugby, but to a job. Another job. Yeah. Because there was no money in it. But you are holding onto them now. Okay. Maybe you're not holding them at your club, but you're holding them within the sport, which is creating that depth. Um, the two 10 should work fine.

It'll keep it clean. Yeah. We can come onto why I think maybe the Rugby Europe Super Cup probably is not the way to go anymore. Some of that's TV and some of that's, [00:22:00] I think Spain are just above that level now. But this is your, this is your, this is your show, Carl. Oh, I, your leader. So I, I obviously know a few people within Rugby Europe as well, and.

I dunno if I should be probably saying some of this, but the expiration date, just use the word allegedly. Yeah. So the, the expiration date of the Rugby Europe Super Cup may not be very long lived because of how poor it's been being viewed. It's not been taken seriously. Obviously the black lions dropped out, other clubs signed up for a certain period to make it feasible this season.

If that doesn't project the way that they've hoped. Does that continue, is it probably best of you that more as a development nations model, rather than worrying about the likes of Spain, [00:23:00] Portugal, and Georgia? Do you leave that sort of to the other, the other nations that won't have the availability of a.

A decent under twenties or under eighteens or have got a, an option to be. It is effectively an A team, but it's not an A team because you're playing all your, your main, your main players. The people that I've spoken to, the the plan for the Rugby Europe super cut from Rugby Europe and from the world rugby refunding it, uh, was basically that this has gotta be utilized as a development, not a, you put your strongest team out and then they go and play, play in the the Rugby Europe championship.

Yeah. And I think maybe Spain is just a victim of timing as well. You know, if George had still been in with the teams you have now. Yeah. Okay. These are leg, I think, proper game. You could say they're legitimate games a hundred percent. But we also have to look at it from a product perspective. Right? Yeah.

When were the games played. Six o'clock in Lencia on Friday. I cannot get to that game. You know, I'm, I'm based in [00:24:00] Madrid. I'm always probably gonna be based in the north of Spain. Yeah. Or down in the south. Yeah. Um, so, you know, it's really difficult. Also, the other thing we have to realize is Movie Star are not paying for it.

No. That movie Star are covering division Divisioned Honor. Yeah. Right. Which is huge for the game. For people who dunno what Movie Star is, think of it kind of as. I would say Sky Sports in the late nineties, early two thousands. It's largely got most of the sports. Yeah. Okay. Boxing and maybe other things are on Daan, but Movie Star are giving Spanish rugby a game every week on TV as a fixture.

And what did we do the first week of the season? Well, none of the best players who are Spanish internationals who play in Spain were available because they were playing in this. Yeah. I think we've just surpassed it, you know, and in a, in an honest way. And it happens, you know, we, I think playing in Division honors, you've said in terms of the quality of the competition is better than what they're gonna [00:25:00] get playing in the Rugby Europe Super Cup.

That's a product we can control and we can sell. Yeah, right. You can build a narrative every week through the season having these boys available and it becomes a cyclical thing, you know, starting this season with a bang and then having those lads taken out. Not great. I can get the argument that. It's giving them a kind of professional development.

It's bringing those players together. And Pablo Boer, who is the Spanish coach, when he picks his strongest team, they're all coming from France anyway, I don't wanna keep going on about France, but it's the kind of, it's true, it's the, you know, it's the, it's the center of gravity that's drawing everything into it.

And I think having a product that we can control, which is divisioned on it, and making that as good as possible and actually having a neutral venue for a final, and then saying to lads, go and get your contract in France if you can. I think that's far more long term viable. 'cause it doesn't depend on world rugby.

And we've seen that [00:26:00] when world Rugby has to choose between appeasing tier one nations or keeping funding that we already know the decision that's gonna be made. Yes, it's going to America. It's gonna go to the MLR. Yeah. That's crazy. That's absolutely crazy, isn't it? Um, six, six clubs being held together by 250 million.

Great work. But we also need to remember a portion of that money is not actually going to America. It's going to tier one nation's, two host games in America. Mm-hmm. Which is doubly bad. Yeah. I mean, I did ask this in the press conference with. Pablo today, or if you're listening to this last week? Yeah. Um, when, um, we've got Argentina in, we've got Uruguay in, we've got Chilean, we've got Spain in, I think that's the most Hispanic teams.

Yeah. There's ever been, don't quote me on that, but I think if it's not a draw, then it's certainly up there. But Argentina, east Spain is only the third Hispanic game that has ever taken place at a Rugby World Cup. Yeah. That's gonna be [00:27:00] the only third one, but that's where the growth of the sport is. A hundred percent.

That like you can have an amazing competition there in a couple of years. Chile with Uruguay, with Argentina. Okay. If it's an Argentina 18 fine. Um, I, what I would really love to see is basically a five team tournament and Spain just gets in it. We do it in July, bin off the nations thing. You have Spain, Argentina, play that game in Europe, cheerly, Uruguay, Paraguay, you know, that would be incredible.

But yeah, I mean, we can come onto that, but there's, I asked Pablo. About the kind of anglosphere centric nature of rugby union. Um, yeah. Which, okay. It's understandable. It came. It's an empire sport. We get that. Yeah. But I don't see how the growth of the game is in the United States. You've put a lot of money into it.

You're still putting a lot of money into it. I mean, we can come onto the draw now. Yeah. They're not getting outta that group. No, they are not getting outta that group. No. They've got, [00:28:00] who have they got? Japan, Samoa. Yeah. France, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're go, you are gone. You're gone. You, I mean, they're not even gonna make a whisper even with, even in current form, they are dreadful at best.

Um, apart from, they actually finally turned up against Georgia. They, they gave 'em a bit of a rattle, and then obviously they did the, but. It was a very limp reaction to what they had in the Nation's Cup. They had a poor run of form going into everything else. But the, the problem is everyone thinks that America's just gonna grab rugby like it has the NFL, and that's gonna be the be all and end all.

We're gonna save rugby through Americans don't, pardon my French, they don't give a fuck about rugby. Like, they just don't care. And it, there's a similar situation in Australia, so we're kind of going there off the back of a lion tour where rugby union's probably about the fifth or [00:29:00] sixth sport in Australia.

A lot of people that I know went down there, didn't even know that the fuck what the lines was. They thought it was some somewhere else. They, they, they weren't even, they didn't even know it was going on. They the, you know, I don't want to, we're not gonna turn this into a, a Rugby league International Exactly.

Podcast. 'cause that's, that's even more depressing. Listen, um, I just watching, I know people would've watched the draw. Yeah. There wasn't as much of the world rugby there as I thought there'd be, be It was okay. Australia's hosting it fine, but they're talking about, you know, one guy was talking about how it created great memories, players for life.

Like, we are missing out the elephant in the room. They're just all playing the NRL boys like you are getting these lads coming in because they'll play for a World Cup and they'll go back. Do you think the NRL gives a rat's ass if Sue Lee, he goes for two years? No, because all of that exposure is gonna go back to the NRL.

It's, it is just gonna, they'll go back to the NRL and then you'll see them maybe [00:30:00] three years later. Whereas, and your point about the nr um, America's True because if you have a product that's the biggest in the world, why would you trade it? Why would India give a rat's ass about football? Now they have the biggest cricket product in the world and it's big enough to be a self-contained market.

Yeah. There's no need. Likewise, America, I'm not saying it's impossible, but the way their development is set up, which is, I think it's Title IX in America. No. So, um, obviously in the UK you've got box super rugby, which is basically is becoming a, a backdoor to other academies for other clubs and indeed a second academy and a pathway, yeah.

A fantastically useful product that they could actually grow and, you know, market. Um, whereas that can't happen in America. 'cause all the scholarships are for American football. So where is it gonna happen? I'm not against it, [00:31:00] but you, you can't look at those numbers as a rational person and say. But whereas in South America, you already have an elite nation who you can use to help all the others.

Yeah. You've already seen it work. You've got local rivalries that you can build. Uruguay vi, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, and as all of these nations improve yet football's king everywhere. Yeah. Congratulations. Okay. Maybe not in Australia at CRL India Cricket, whatever. Yeah. But in rugby nations, if you want, you are competing with football.

Yeah. So just, I mean, it's glaring, but as Pablo said in the interview, I asked him, do you know, do you think this World Cup will change that mentality? Well, who knows? Maybe get people who get paid full time to cover rugby, bothering to learn Spanish. Who knows? Um, but he was very blunt about it. He said, look, the only way that you change that mentality is winning on the field.

Yeah. That's it When Argentina get respect now, [00:32:00] before it used to be surprise, now it is a respect. People are slowly turning their mentality from, oh, we've lost to Argentina, to, yeah, we should lose to Argentina. Yeah. So, you know, it kind of brings us onto the World Cup draw, but winning on the field is gonna be the best way to change that narrative.

Yeah. So I think perfectly timed to get onto the draw. Um, we'll leave our draw till last year. We obviously group, uh, Paul c we'll leave that one till last. We've obviously got what looks like the opening game of the tournament's gonna be New Zealand The Wallabies is the highly likely first game. That is a hell of a game to start the tournament with.

Yeah. I mean. Uh, the World Cup being in Australia one, it's gonna be a massive game. Again, not here to say I'm an expert on either of those teams probably know more about Australia 'cause of the amount of NRL players they're bringing in. Yeah. But, um, and there will be a few more that come in. You've got Lomax who was gonna sign for Rugby 360 in the [00:33:00] same way that I was going to marry Scarlett Hansen.

Uh, didn't happen, but he could be in there. So the quality of that Australian team, I think this is a point we can make about lots of them. Yeah. The, the teams that we're looking at now are probably not the teams that we're gonna see in two years, especially for these kind of middle ranking nations. But that Yeah, that'll be fantastic.

And this World Cup plus the Lions tour, it is keeping Australian rugby on life support. Yeah. Because they were in a massive black hole financially. Wow. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I don't wanna say it's rigged, but they gave them Hong Kong. The first game, like the first person out the draw in Australia. Yeah. I'm like, well done boys.

Like you are making sure Yeah. That you are getting there, you know? Um, but yeah, it, that is gonna be a huge game to kick off. Um, and then Chile Chili's in the mix as well with 'em, aren't they? So, yeah, I think for Spain it's all about the third place teams, isn't it? You know, you don't have to win these games, [00:34:00] you just need to steal bonus points.

Yeah. That's gonna be the tough thing. Do I see Chile getting bonus points off New Zealand? No. No, no. But if they, if New Zealand get far enough out ahead do, are they gonna give a rat's ass about conceding two tries with 10 minutes to go if they pull their team off? No. For me it's all about the third place teams.

I'm looking at some of these groups looking for favors like Island, Scotland. They need to do Spain some favors by keeping points away from Uruguay. Yeah. Bonus points. Um, wh which for you, which group do you think is gonna be the closest group in terms of, wh if I ask you to pick now, who are your top two?

That's the hardest to do. I'll probably sound biased, but I'd honestly say Spain or Fiji. I think that's the only one that's the hardest one to flip for. I honestly think there is a Georgia, Italy. No, I don't, I don't, I think that's convincingly Italy. Like I, I, that's easily, easily Italy all day long.

Romania. [00:35:00] Romania or Romania. We know what Romania offer Georgia. I, I honestly don't think they've moved forward. I I don't think they've improved outside of the Rugby Europe model that like you put 'em up against other nation. They got caught, they got caught out. Um, obviously la late in the, the last November International, they, they should have lost to the USA.

They looked pretty terrible against Canada. There's a lot of questions being asked and there's a lot going on behind the scenes in Georgia, especially with the investigations and the captain being suspended and six year bans, et cetera, et cetera. There's, there's a lot happening in that nation and whether we see Georgia where they are currently in two years time, I am.

So, I'm not so sure about that either. I mean, two quick points on that. 'cause obviously we want to get through these groups and then we can bring it all around, but I think that's a cause of not being able to, not being allowed to progress. Right. You, we saw the [00:36:00] crowds when they were playing against Japan, like there's only so many years that you can keep playing Spain or battering people in the Rugby Europe championship.

Yeah. Which historically they have done, now they're gonna get even fewer games. At that kind of top level. They've actually been, they've lost games. All this bollocks about, I don't know what they're calling it, the Nation's Trophy or Nation's Cup. Nation's cup or Yeah, whatever is bollocks. Just, it's just the cartel again.

'cause there's no way you can get promotion relegation. No. So it's, it's just so people don't understand how difficult it is to generate that interest. And as an investor, as a sponsor, you know, if Spain have got, um, KPMG have come on board, um, not for a lot of money, I wouldn't have thought, but they've come on board.

No, but if I'm an investor, but that what, and we get really good, well, you're fucked anyway. Like you're not allowed to progress. So I think some of that is, it is stagnation, but it's kind of being designed to do [00:37:00] that. Which is, which is disappointing. But if Spain can overtake them, it certainly changes the conversation around six nations.

'cause we know why Georgia don't get in because they're not a TV market. If Spain can. Turn that clock. I think it changes the conversation. I, I don't be, I don't, the six nations is a sealed shut. Never gonna happen. Doesn't matter who's there. It's this private boys club. We've bought rights, we've done all this.

Unless a massive, massive check is put on the table to offer somebody to step in, which I'm pretty certain Georgia had on the table as well. I can't see it ever happening. Like the closest we are gonna get to a, a version of the Six Nations is what they've done in football back in England with the j uh, the Johnston Paint Trophy where they started allowing Premier League 18 clubs.

Yeah. No one, that's the, no one's watching that, that's the problem. Correct. But that's the closest we're gonna ever be allowed to, are six [00:38:00] nations with. Tier one nations involved with anyone like Spain, Georgia, or anything like that. 'cause that's why there's conversations that Italy a are gonna be allowed to be involved in the Rugby Europe championships.

I mean, it's just, yeah, I can, I can get it. I mean, in a, in a perfect world, I win the Euro Millions and set up a rugby league team in Spain and then suddenly Spain starts getting tier one internationals. Exactly. So certainly that's why France got allowed back into what was then the home nations. Yeah. And then the Five Nations people kind of don't know or don't care to know.

France got booted out. Yeah. And then rugby leagues started getting popular in France and then France relayed back in, you know, but it's, it's that stupid mentality because I think I've mentioned this to you before. The day we were invited to LID to watch that game, I opened my newspaper on Monday after Spain had ran England really close.

Um, back in the newspaper wall to war coverage, it was the NFL. Why? Because there was an NFL game in Madrid, Madrids. [00:39:00] Yeah. You know the idea, there's still that mentality that other nations, like Spain or Georgia or even Argentina, should be grateful to take part. Mm-hmm. Whereas Spain, no, they'll just bin you off for, um, a, the, a product.

Yeah. You know, the NFL isn't bringing their, their c team games. No. They're bringing their real product. Yeah. Formula One is bringing their real product. I mean, if Wales keep getting worse, then maybe it, maybe it can change, but we're still waiting for Spain to win that. Prove it game. Yeah. I think, I think it's legit.

I think it's a hope and it's legitimate not to say anything at the moment. And they are a victim of geography being in Europe. If they're in South America. Oh, the, the game's against Argentina. Yeah. Like a three match test series. You'd be printing money, right? Yeah. Um, but. I don't think it's, I think it's highly unlikely, but when Spain beat Wales in the knockout reigns at the next World Cup in the 16, then who knows?

Who knows? [00:40:00] Anyway, let's roll it on. Carl. Roll it on us, man. Yeah, I, I honestly think though, we've, we've probably got the most favorable draw for a potential second place. Um, yeah. Who else? Maybe Japan. Japan would've been maybe the only team, but it depends how many foreigners that they can bring in. I think Ja in who are, I think in that group, nearly eligible Japan looked favorable in there anyway.

France, Japan, samo would probably be the only one if they turn up with a full strength side and whoever manages to. Real allegiance himself. The same with Tonga. Obviously Tonga, they might rob seconds 'cause the Vona Polo Brothers might suddenly pull on a Tonga shirt in two years time. We've got all of these, yeah, all these bits.

And then what Jack Willis is potentially gonna be able to pull on a shirt for France because he is been out of the, out of it. That would be incredible. Out of England for so long. So I hope that, I mean that would be amazing though. Just, you know, it would, it's a unreal And thanks to the RFU Yeah. For running, you know, three clubs.

[00:41:00] Well was it the RFU or was it Premiership teams running themselves into the grind? Um, I'll be all of it. Yeah. Samoa will probably stock up with lads. Yeah. Um, even if it's lads from the NRL or as you said, lads switching. Yeah. Is that a negative, is that a positive for the tournament itself? It's probably a positive to have competitive games In terms of development, is it a positive No, because they're on sabbatical.

You know, they're on sabbatical. Whereas this is why, again, south America, you can get these lads in and they're not going anywhere. They're, they're not gonna hop it back to the NRL in two years time. I mean, who are your, who are your top, who are your four to go through? That's the question I wanna ask you.

So I'm not fus about your top two unless you've got some surprises in there. You are saying Italy have nailed on against Georgia, but we know that four teams who finish in the top three are going through. If you had to pick four now, [00:42:00] who, who would you have? I think you'll require a banker to, to finish third in their group.

Get enough points to qualify. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I think they do. I think they, obviously they've already beaten Portugal. Portugal were in full rebuild mode. That's not gonna suddenly change by the World Cup. I think they run Scotland closer. Yeah. So disappointing, isn't it? Yeah. I see them running Scotland closer than probably Scotland would hope.

And then Scotland. Ireland's gonna be a big one to decide how that goes. That, that, that could go however way Chile are gonna get himself through in, in third, quite comfortably. Probably with a big win over Hong Kong, China. That will obviously make them fairly comfortable. Uh oh really? Yeah. Yeah. Chin. Chin.

'cause I think you're gonna need more than five points. I think you're gonna need more than five points, right? Mm-hmm. Because you know, they're saying every, every, you know Tonga are gonna bat a Zimbabwe. [00:43:00] Yeah. Everyone's gonna fancy beating the USA. Spain should beat Canada, Georgia, Romania have got worse consistently every year now, unfortunately.

So I think you have to, I think if you want to qualify in the third position, you have to beat that every team and get your bonus five points. Yeah, but I wouldn't have Chile myself. Not Well, I'll let you give your four and I'll go through mine, man. Um, Chile, obviously Georgia will probably, well Georgia will do a number in Romania.

They, that will be that, uh, either Spain or Fiji, however, that falls on, on that game. That will obviously be one of them two will go through in that group. Uh, I, I can't see Canada turning, turning full circle in that period. I honestly think Wales may potentially finish third in that group. Oh my God. Big call.

Big call. Yeah, they obviously can you imagine, I can't see 'em beating England [00:44:00] unless there's a ma there's a minor miracle. They'll beat Zimbabwe comfortably or they'll get a, a bit of a rumble. Uh, toga would do a number on them potentially with the, with the new players being, I think they'll be closer than they, they probably would like to think.

And then Tonga should obviously be Zimbabwe quite, quite comfortably, which would potentially, yeah. Yeah. Put 'em above him, in my opinion. So I'm, I'm not far off you. I, I think the only one I would switch out is maybe, I'm probably gonna switch out Chile. 'cause only four. Only four of the teams that finished third go through.

Yeah. Obviously. So two have gotta miss out. Someone's gonna get six points or something. I've got Spain. I think they can do enough. Depends how the game's for, right? Yeah. I don't want them to have to play Argentina and them play Fiji. No. You want Argentina last, what happen is the one that is the last game.

Well, as long as you get Canada before, so you can get those points on the board [00:45:00] and you know what you need from that game. Yeah, yeah. If, if we don't give a shit about being Argentina, but we just need a bonus point, fuck it. I don't think you're allowed to do this, but give Tanny Bay a bucket load of acid Yeah.

Before the game. Yeah. And just tell 'em to run everything and We'll, we'll lose 90, 36. Yeah. But we'll get our four points. Yeah. My worry is that they exhaust themselves out playing against Argentina. Get really close, but not enough tries. Yeah. Do the same against Fiji. Get really close and not enough tries in the right.

But I've got Spain going through, I've got Georgia going through, I think. Okay. You may think they're gonna get battered by Italy, but I think there's a bonus point in there for them. So I think it's six points. I think six is the six points is what you're gonna need. Mm. I've got some moa. Being the other team that get enough and then Tonga and then, but similar to you, I think Tonga could do it because, I mean, it's so hard with [00:46:00] those Pacific nations about who's available, but when you look at the talent pool of lads, they could pull in from the NRL.

Um, yeah. You know, even if it's three or four ads, that would make a massive difference. And I don't think Chile and Uruguay are gonna be able to get points outside of their Pot four team. I think Australia and New Zealand will not be generous in giving enough, getting enough tries for Chile to get that, to get that tri bonus point.

And I think, I dunno, I mean you, you know why in Scotland I can't see it, I can't see Euro guy doing it. I'd love to see it obviously, but not at our expense. Why is, why have they done the World Cup draw now this far out? I know that's how rugby do it and obviously, but then you've got the FIFA World Cup.

Draw being done on Friday, which is six months beforehand, based on actual current form rather than the typical biased. We've made sure we, we got everyone qualified that we want to qualify. [00:47:00] Let's go into a well cup draw. I think some of it comes back to the, they next year, they want the elite nations all playing each other.

You know, it's the elite nations. They want their cake and to eat it too. Yeah. They wanna be able to play each other all for money. Yeah. But what happens if they all play each other? Will they start losing? Right. And so what happens to that ranking? Well, it comes lower and lower and lower. And they're not gonna go a year without playing good nations.

'cause they need the money. You know, they're all trapped in this circle now of we need to make this much money. Why? Because we're spending way too much more than we can afford. Yeah. That, that's the reality. The game is living beyond its means and has done for a very long time. Um, and should just spend less.

There's, there's only so much juice you can get out of this. Um, I would say that as a rugby league fan from the north of England, wouldn't I? Yeah. You know, just pay everyone five quid place, you know? Um, so I think that's it. They, they want it both ways. Yeah. They want to pay all [00:48:00] of each other. But if not, and again, the annoying thing about this nation's thing now is, you know, it, this would've made perfect sense.

I think this would've made perfect sense if they'd have done it two years out. Why? So that next November and July. Nations, like Spain or Georgia could get those tier one games. So Spain, Spain could have had Italy in November as a, as the fourth week of the game. That's the game that we get the lads back from France.

Yeah, thank you. You know, Georgia could have had a game and Fiji, Fiji kind of already in there, but the teams that are on that cusp could have got those legit games and there's a reason to watch it. Yeah. But that's why they've done it. So I, I've got no sympathy for when I don't know, you know, people complain about, you know, Ireland complain about getting the Scotland draw or South Africa complain about they might get New Zealand this game.

Like you keep changing through your tournaments to make sure you play each other all the time anyway for money. Yeah. So I [00:49:00] really don't have any sympathy with you if it inconveniences you once every four years. So that's me being cynical, that's it. If you're gonna hang your, hang your hat on it, who's gonna win it?

It's really hard to look past South Africa, isn't it? Yeah. Um. It's amazing how many people have become Rugby league fans in Ireland recently. You never would've thought that Andy Farrell obviously being the coach, but now they don't want contested scrums. You know, they're coming over to the dark side car.

Um, you know, I wanna ask you a few more before obviously I'll let you go. Yeah. Because it's, well, I've had you for an hour now, but, um, you know, you played in the UK obviously you played in England, Danien, but you were in Pomino. Yeah, Portsmouth. Yeah. Goss. Golfport. So just across the little water, you probably know more about kind of championship level if you had to, thinking about where you played, and then we'll finish at the World Cup.

Thinking about where you played, if you were to put division to honor on a tier [00:50:00] in the UK or in England, we should say, sorry, in England, where, where would you put it? Are we saying. Championship or is that just a bit too high at the moment? Or what clubs do you think might be able to go in the championship?

It's kind of between the championship and NAT two, where obviously there's, there's quite, we obviously got nat one, but if there's probably some clubs that would do well in one bit and if you had the full strength division on, or you're probably closer to upper end in that one bottom end of the championship.

But in the current stability where most of the internationals are away, you're probably looking closer towards mid to lower NAT one, some NAT two teams. 'cause you've got, you've got Nat two teams that have got international players still rolling around in. So like down in Campbell you've got Sam Bati rolling out as their DOR playing week in, [00:51:00] week out.

Rather than playing Hooker, who's the hooker's? The, I believe the Navy Hooker plays for them as well. So he also plays it. He's playing Flanker. His brother Joel Vey, ISS playing its center. He got the other Vey brother there as well. And they're all just carving it up in, in Na too. So I think the English game's got enough about it.

But the Spanish, the Spanish model, I, I, I think is probably at the minute, probably lower end than that one because of the unavailability. If the internationals are there all season, you'd be there. I don't, I think any like Burgos, uh, VRAC potentially Cisneros on some days depend on which Cisneros turns up.

Yeah. Which one can be asked? Yeah. Yeah. They, they normally perform really well against the teams at the higher end of the table. Yeah. And then when they're playing the lower end, they [00:52:00] don't have it. Exactly. So your prediction mate, who, if you had to pick a World Cup winner, who are you going for? I'm gonna, like, I can, it's very hard to see the way the rules are set up currently, where you can just get, you can get penalty after penalty in the scrum.

Yeah. Like who, who's, who's beating that? Who's not even beating it? Who's surviving against it? You know, uh, I think it'd have to be between, oh, obviously if South Africa have a blip, if it would have to probably be between France and England, to be honest, would be the other two. Uh, in current form. Oh really?

Yeah. Okay. I really, uh, France or France, France will blow up doing France things. They'll pick and choose if they want to win it. Um, I think England have got enough depth, but it also depends on what England turns up, how we turn up in what format. And, but I think a after, [00:53:00] apart from Spain's November Internationals, England obviously had a absolute blind, A four from four could have easily blown up.

Could have lo a couple of, a few months ago. We'd have probably lost them a lot more. Um, but that's, that's where it is. But I honestly think outside of, outside of that Spain, I know the results don't show it, but I think they had an absolute. Barnstorm of a November International period. I think there's a lot more answers than there are questions outta what Spain produced outta that.

I think that's a great way, that's a great way of putting it, that we went in like, oh, can we compete with these teams? You know? You know, every team can say, oh, Fiji didn't have their best players. We can do the exact same for Spain. Yeah. You know, the six or seven of the lads in the top 14 weren't there.

Yeah. And they're taking it to the end. In terms of, in terms of what I liked, which was a [00:54:00] change. You know what would've concerned me is the way they played against Ireland. And that was a very experienced island. 18. Yeah. And they did get tonged. Yeah. You know, it was a, and and it was not good to watch. Um, I mean, it was a great day.

Like off the field, they got it right. I think the, it looks good on tv. The officiating was terrible. That was probably one of the worst officiating displays I've seen in a long time at a national level on both sides. Don't get me wrong, I thought, I thought the official on the day was horrendous. Not that it would've stopped Ireland, like I Ireland.

Yeah. Looked phenomenal. But there would've, I think the gap wouldn't have been a wa as wide, I think there was a lot of things that a, potentially a better level referee would've picked up. You could see why they got that job, because the amount of other bigger games that are on of, that's how I viewed it from pitch side.

Uh, like watching some of the breakdown stuff. The amount of stuff that was missed there was. The absence of the TMO, [00:55:00] I dunno if there was a TMO there wa uh, whether he was just in his ear, but there was no screen. It was a pretty poor display. Um, but not take anything off. Ireland would phenomenal. Ireland could have gone through another gear.

I they were different gravy, but I think Spain wouldn't have been as widely the, I don't think the gap would've been as wide if the officiating was of a better level. It's not something I'd say I'd noticed against Ireland. I got frustrated with it against England with the constant TMO. Yeah. In the referees.

Bloody bloody year. You know, and it's a huge problem in rugby league as well. Yeah. Every game talks about speeding up the game, speeding up the game, but then you allow the referees to have five minutes in a frame by frame. Yeah. You know, and the other issue is games are finishing out in two hours. Like that's a lot of TV time.

Yeah. Now that you know people, you're not gonna keep casuals by constantly doing that. In terms of the positive changes, the [00:56:00] kicking from when they played island at the last two games was absolutely night and day better. Yeah. You know, when they played island, they were booting it away and not allowing themselves to compete for it.

And island were just running back with 15, 20 meters to run into like giving someone that much momentum that's never gonna end well for you, but then against England. Okay. Conditions helped. Yeah. 'cause it was filthy. Yeah. But they did the same against Fiji. I don't think a single kick went up from Canny Bay when they were playing that last game and against England as well, that you couldn't compete for it and that made that game against Fiji so much more competitive because.

I mean, Fiji scored one of their tries, a few of their tries from broken play. Yeah. But when Spain had them set up, you know, in that Pablo author way, a lot more disciplined but not gonna be as open, the Spain were on it. And I think what's [00:57:00] really encouraging is Spain set piece, their scrum. It's, it's, you know, when you see John Merker, like the England lads fair play to him.

Like I spoke to a few of them when I was in Via lead. Yeah. You know, weather wasn't great for him, but you know, as they were, they were trying to g themselves up, you know, get in the face of John Meckler. There's a, there's a moment in the video. He just stands up. Yeah, no, I saw it. Laughs in their face. Just laughs in their face.

Phones them up. Like who? Like who do you think you are? Gets back into the scrum, they get a penalty off it. No clapping from Jo, nothing. Just looks at them and smiles again. Like who? Like do you know who I am? Yeah. I think that's the other positive thing for Spain. They've got so many players now who play at that top level that people talk about being overall and being on a big occasion.

Don't you think a top 14 finals a big occasion? Yeah, exactly. John Merkel has already won a few of those. Yeah, like a lot of the Spanish media is talking down Spain and I get why? 'cause they don't want to build up [00:58:00] expectations. Um. And it's about competing, but I honestly, I think we're past that kind of charity point now.

I think Spain, I hope. Right? Of course. I hope. But I, I look at the way they performed in terms of competing for the ball, A really strong set piece, which just gives you such confidence, right? Yeah. If you know that you're gonna be competitive in a scrum, if you know you've got lads who can carry it well and get you out of trouble, if you know you've got someone like Tanny Bay who can take off out of nowhere and maybe sneaky a try, then when you are looking around the field.

I mean, you've played, you probably, if you've got a guy who you know is not very good, you're probably try and overcompensate for him. Right. You're probably gonna try and do more to cover that lad. And that's where holes get made. Yeah. But you are looking around at this team, you know, you've got Alvar Garcia on your left, you've got John Merkel on your right.

You can trust that the lad's next to you are gonna do their job. Yeah. [00:59:00] Um, what for you was, in terms of the performance, obviously you're at the island game, had your own illness, I'm assuming you watched the Fiji game on Yeah. TV whilst you were nurse in your halls Yeah. For you in that Fiji game. 'cause we're gonna be playing them.

What were your main takeaways, mate? Uh, just, just the way that we were able to spread the play. Like the, the tray that the, the tried at Chino scored in the corner where he managed to, they, he just kept drifting out of the eyesight. And I, everyone could see it. Like, I could see it a mile of tanning by saw it rather than just pushing it early.

Tanny waited. It got a couple more, couple more, but we also run the risk of, at the, the pick and go times, we potentially go one or two too many times. I, I get where we try to play that way because of the physicality, but that comes with experience at that level. Sometimes you, depending on the [01:00:00] official, you'll go one or two too many times and you'll potentially hold on too long or et cetera.

But to see that opportunity and be able to throw that pass across the line, that wouldn't have worked against any other team than Fiji because Fiji weren't expecting it because they've done it himself. That's the sort of shit Fiji would do. And I think that, but I think, uh, the one bit for me was Tanny by went missing in the island game because he was, he was marked outta the game.

He was controlled out of the game. Ireland were on his toe. Everything was trying to push him out. They were trying to get him riled up. They'd literally shut him down. As soon as Nicholas infer, come on, we turned another gear. And there's tan's gonna be targeted by a lot of these nations because he is so explosive.

If you manage to find a way of shutting him out of the game, how does Spain then go forward? Yeah, I mean we should take the point that I don't want to keep qualifying it, but in that island [01:01:00] game, he didn't have those top 14 lads around him. But you know, so much does go. He did. He didn in the FI game, didn't have the Fiji game.

He didn't have That is true. That is the true, that's a fair point, mate. Yeah. Hold my hands up. And he didn't have him in most of the rugby. He ended Weldon. Yeah, but he didn't have him in most of the Rugby Europe championship last season either. So it, we can't base it off that one, but there will be teams that are able to manage him out of a game and we've gotta have another option.

And, and the fact that Fiji have played us means they know, is this the benefit or is this a negative? Right. Fiji have had a good look now at two, twice. Yeah. Of, uh, as twice in two years. Yeah. Okay. You've got a year off, but maybe Tanny Bay doesn't start. That might be the thing, you know? Who knows? You know, Chino, as you said, who, you know, I think I may have already mentioned it, but I did the interview with him and he said that when I asked him two weeks ago, are you thinking [01:02:00] about getting into the Spanish team?

You know, you're back playing for CI Says that in your mind. Straight to my face. I'm not thinking about it. He might not, I'm just focused. He might not think about it. He ain't gonna turn it down three weeks. Say you're bowling over. Fiji's liar. Absolute liar, isn't he? He never, never gonna turn it down. He might not think about it, but he's never turning it.

No, I'm, and I'm delighted for him. You know, he'd been injured for such a long time. Like this is, but there's so many stories like this of lads who. You know, who either missed out on the Last World Cup because of what happened. I mean, we had a whole generation of lads who qualified for two World Cups and didn't get to go, you know, tan Bay's gonna be, you know, that might be it for him, like after, genuinely after that World Cup.

He, that's probably thank, thanks to the memories. Yeah. So you want 'em to go out? Well, I'm, I'm really hopeful that the Fiji game just turns into an absolute fest. Yeah. And we just agree. [01:03:00] We just agree. Okay, boys, we're both gonna play open rugby game. Just go for it. It's gonna be 60 40. Everyone takes their bonus point and we all go home happy.

My fear, when Pablo played Fiji two years ago, the majority of Spain's points came off. Penalties. Yeah. Which is fine, but you're not gonna get a bonus point for that. You can get a losing bonus point, but whereas this time. It's not like hell or ever, but Spain has got that punch, you know? Yeah. Um, we've got different game plans.

That's the, that's the difference. That's the difference. There's different game plans because I was there for the Fiji game last year when it literally got to the last 10 minutes again and, uh, 10, 15 minutes and Fiji went through the gears. That's the problem with Spain at the minute. Spain are a 65, 70 minute team.

We're not quite at the point of making that full 80, uh, against most clubs we are, or nations. But I, I'm also quite excited by the players that are coming through. Obviously [01:04:00] under eighteens have just won the Rugby Europe, so there's gonna be some of these players there. Like, um, Lucas Gill, he's playing for cow in, uh, Valencia.

Mm-hmm. He's now part of the Iberians. So there's a, he's blood, he's being blooded in. He's only 18-year-old lad. Different gravy. Again, the only thing for me was with Chino. I, it sounds really harsh, but he didn't look physical enough for a winger for me. He got bounced off too many. There was a time there, he got too many tackles, bounced against the likes of Fiji that are, are that physical monster.

You're gonna get the same in the game against Argentina. We're gonna get, he's gonna get exploited. And they, they teased up on him so many times because they knew he's gonna have to try and tackle one of them, but the other one's just gonna walk past. And that, that was, that was the only thing that when you've got Alberto, is Alberto Karma.

That's, uh, karma. [01:05:00] That's playing in. Um, he's over in France. He wasn't available for the last game, but he can play anywhere along the back, back three. Um, he's, he's a, he's a exceptionally good player, um, and a great option to have. But Chino, but this is the thing, it's like the competition is, you mentioned at the start, this is why it's to be really positive.

Yeah. The competition is there. And where's it gonna be in four years? You know? Yeah. When all of those boys from the under eighteens, they're 22, they're 23. I mean, we forget Joel Meckler, although he looks like a 50-year-old man who a, his younger brother. Yeah. And that's why he's the size of two men. He's in his mid twenties.

Yeah. Like, you've got a lot of these boy, okay. Alro, you know, the, um, the Jan Sala, who is the captain on the call today, um, he'll probably make another World Cup. Mm-hmm. Like Alvar Garcia is gonna make another [01:06:00] World Cup. Yeah. So I don't want this to be like, oh, we're glad to be that. I'm not, I think if Spain don't qualify for the 16, it is a disappointment.

Yeah. I'm hap I'm happy to say that I'm, I'm not, I don't wanna be one of these people who, oh, what a shock. It shouldn't be a shock anymore, I don't think. And when we spoke to John, he was happy with the group. Yeah, like the, the captain was happy 'cause they're not thinking about a holiday. No. A lot of the Spanish press were like, oh, you could have played New Zealand, you could have played South Africa.

They're not going for a holiday. No. These boys are thinking about qualifying. And that's kind of where Spanish rugby is now. No, that's good. The o the only thing that really worries me is who's our fallback gonna be? Obviously we've had to John vessel bells come back out of retirement. That was a very short-lived retirement, maybe a panic situation that we realized we actually haven't got a fallback to call upon.

Uh, Ardee looks great at 10, but not at fallback. That's the, that's the only position that really worries [01:07:00] me and hopefully will develop over the, sort of the next year or two. That's the, that's my only standout position. I think the rest of it, we've got tons of depth and vessel bells quality, don't get me wrong, but I just, you can't rely on one player that's.

Retired once, probably go into his last bit. Where's the future in that position? Go. And also, you know, the last thing we want world rugby to know is that we still have a South Ahan in our team. Mm-hmm. 'cause we're not Scotland. So if, if you're listening world rugby, John Vessel Bell is actually from, uh, Andrew Lucia.

Yeah. Um, you know that this is fake news. Yeah. He's not actually South African. Please do not kick us out of another tournament. Um, yes, I agree. And there were a few times against, definitely on your point about being a 70 minute team when I was in that press conference after they lost to England in the last minute, and they conceded two tries [01:08:00] in six minutes.

I've never seen him so dejected. I think if he had his time back, he would've left Merlow and Garcia on who came off in the last 10 minutes. Yeah. And that would've been your statement win. So there's definitely an element of, yes, there's depth, but there are levels to the, the caliber of player. Yeah.

Coming in and out. Fallback, maybe you pinch someone from sevens. What's the most concern about fallback for you? Because, you know, as someone who normally watches in the UK or England anyway, the, the kind of, I'm not saying fallback in rugby league and rugby union is a transferrable skill. There's more, there's more in common.

But whereas in Rugby league, it's all about making meters from fallback. Mm-hmm. A fallback in rugby union seems to be much more, you've got a, just a defensive, he's gonna take every high ball. Defense will after what we care way more about paradoxically, you know, [01:09:00] rugby league's all about defense. Right.

But it seems that in rugby union, if there's one position that you've gotta be able to take the high ball. Yeah. And you, you prioritize defense over attack. Yeah. Feels like the fallback position. Oh. And, and, but again, that's, that's what worries me is that, that back three, obviously you've got calm owner that can play any position across those back three fullback's probably not his best position, but he can play there.

Vessel bell, not the tall list, but great under the high ball when it goes his way, clearance kicks brilliant defensively. And then you've got Chino on the other side as well and a similar. Stature. That's, that's my only concern from me being, from coaching, from playing. It's a bit, maybe it's a bit small, it's too small in my opinion, to have two of those players.

Mm-hmm. And that back three should literally work like an arc they should be able to draw in. And [01:10:00] if you are caught, if you are caught on that other side and you've got Vessel Bell and Gino against the likes of a, say we get to England and you've got Freddy Stewart or other players coming that are obviously a sizable stature, like even escrow or Santi Carre coming through in that position against those two, I'd be quite concerned.

Yeah. There's um, there's kind of a thing for motor sport, which I don't really watch a lot of, but they talk about who are you racing, you know, if they're on a different strategy, changing tires, whatnot. If we're playing England at the World Cup. I could like play whoever you want. Yeah. Play, play, play wolves.

Play four foot wolves who run like Paceman. 'cause you've had the greatest Yeah. Ball cup of all time. Yeah. And everyone's gonna be talking about you. I'm more interested in the bonus point against Fiji. So I'd probably, I think it's a different conversation. Maybe if you get to the 16 or games against Canada where we, it is just about the win.

Yeah. But [01:11:00] if you, for me, if you are targeting a game where you're gonna get that bonus point, Fiji are gonna play open, you hope. Mm. Like do they know another way to play? Probably not. So you'd hope they keep it open. But if they keep it open, that's gonna give you chances losing by 40 points. But getting a bonus point is the priority.

So for me, I would sacrifice for that one game I'd sacrifice the defensive frailty. Mm. I'd happily trade. Um, you know, you. Him giving up three tries if he can get us two. Yeah, yeah. You know, 'cause I think that's the main thing for me. But yeah, there's plenty, there's plenty to be excited about, I think. And as I, as I said, there's more answers than there were questions out of it.

Uh, and I, I honestly think we probably had a great, a great November internationals. We've got a great draw in front of us, A growing product, a growing development model. And there's a reason why we sit here and [01:12:00] wax lyrical about the Spanish game from being inside it. Because it is, it is something, it is better than some of the products out there.

It's not the finished article. But when Spain go for something, they don't settle for bullshit, do they? They don't set for set. They go for the top. You look at the Spanish football, you look at everything else they go for, they make a proper statement. And once this is bought into by the mainstream, by the most, most people within Spain, this game here.

May, no, no limits, but we've just gotta get through that barrier. You know, a final point for me, and then I'm gonna bugger off to bear myself, um, is um, yeah, well to bring it back, every time that Spain have been allowed to compete openly, they've always gone to the next level. Yeah. They've always gone to the next level where it's the under 20 championship that was set up in a playoff to basically protect teams like Scotland who couldn't get relegated.

And when Spain had promotion relegation, they got in. So they're in there under [01:13:00] eighteens now they're beat in Georgia. The sevens when that program started. Okay. Last year they were the runners up on the circuit. So every time that Spain gets an opportunity, yeah. It tends to take it. And we've just gotta hope that in two years time, Spain.

Take this opportunity. I completely agree. I think it's probably the perfect note to, to leave that on Ed and really appreciate your time and for everyone that's joined us. Uh, obviously we've got everything on rugby TTL. This is gonna be shared on YouTube. We'll be able to share Ed's channel you predominantly on x on under Sen vo.

Is it? Are you on any other channels? Yeah. Sen vo Snr vo. You'll find it. We'll put it all in the links. Yeah. But um, yeah, if any of you suffered through. An hour and 25 minutes of my face. Well, you are the real heroes guys. Yeah. So thanks for your time as well, Carl. No, thank you. And hopefully we can get a [01:14:00] few more of these in this season.

And, uh, for everyone that wants to keep, keep abreast of everything we do, we're on Instagram, all the other platforms, we'll share everything that Ed does as well. And, uh, I hope you enjoy everything we do and we'll see you on another episode soon. Cheers.