Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 17 - Mike Friday - No Holds Barred!

Rugby Insights: Mike Friday on Sevens, World Rugby Politics & More | Rugby Through the League Podcast

In this episode of Rugby Through the League's podcast, we welcome Mike Friday, an iconic figure in the world of rugby. Host and guest delve into Mike's extensive career, from his playing days with London Wasps and Harlequins to coaching England and USA teams in the Sevens and Fifteens formats. The conversation covers the evolution of rugby, the role of Sevens in player development, and controversial changes in the World Rugby Sevens Series. They also touch on the impact of private investment in rugby, the future of the women's game post the recent Women's World Cup, and offer candid critiques and hopeful solutions for the sport's future. Join us for an in-depth discussion that seeks to put world rugby to rights.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:40 Mike Friday's Rugby Journey
03:18 The Role of Sevens in Player Development
04:55 Challenges and Opportunities in Rugby Development
11:05 Financial Models and Rugby's Future
18:29 Women's Rugby: Growth and Challenges
28:32 Red Bull's Potential Impact on Rugby
32:45 World Series and Sevens Rugby
36:20 The Challenge of Monetizing Rugby Sevens
37:32 Struggles of Emerging Rugby Nations
38:55 Inconsistencies and Moral Issues in Rugby Governance
39:32 The Impact on Team GB and Event Hosting Challenges
40:50 Proposed Solutions for Rugby Sevens
42:41 The Future of Rugby Sevens and World Rugby's Role
50:57 The State of Rugby Fifteens and World Cup Concerns
54:59 Complicated Qualification Processes and Their Impact
58:59 Potential Reforms and the Role of Developing Nations
01:11:19 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Transcript

Ep17 Audio

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby through the League's podcast. I hope you enjoyed the other week when we had James Kent on obviously talking about all things Luxembourg. We now also welcome another great guest this week. For those that are aware, Mike Friday will not be pulling any punches today.

We will be putting world rugby and everything to everything to bed. Every, every issue in the world will probably be resolved today on this podcast. So Mike, I really appreciate your time, mate, and, uh, thank you for joining us. And yeah, let's, uh, let's try and put world rugby to right Chewy. It could take a while.

All solvable. All solvable, but there we go. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So for those that aren't aware who you are and what you do, can we just have a quick roundup of your rugby life so far? 'cause you've, you've had a fair journey so far, haven't we? Uh, yeah, I mean, I've, I've. I was a former player.

Um, I was part of the lot but became amateur to became pro back in the late [00:01:00] nineties or mid nineties, so I'm that old. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I was London wasps and Harlequins, um, and Black Heath as well, um, as a player. I see. And then, um, charter surveyor by trade. Um, yeah, that was my proper job back in the day.

Um, but obviously of. Coached, uh, a lot of fifteens and sevens, so coached, um, on, in the world of fifteens at London, wels, London, Scottish helped out wasps as well as USA fifteens. Um, and have have done some done pathway stuff as well. Um, for England, obviously I was part of the, the National Academy, junior National Academy Coaching crew back, back in the day when it first started with the likes of a very young perform, perform Danny Care performer, uh, Ben Foden, um, Ben Youngs, um, and Ray, Matthew Tate, all of all of those kind of golden generation boys that came through in the, in the early thousands.

Um, but obviously known more as a perform as, as a, as a person performer on the seventh Circuit, which is about performance, performance, developing young stars, [00:02:00] um, to, to potentially go onto fifteens. Back in the early days, and I was a. An England Sevens player, captain team, 98 Commonwealth Games, um, as well as the 2001 Rugby Sevens World Cup.

And then went on, became a coach for England Sevens, um, also coach Kenya Sevens perform, um, back from relegation to top 14 perform. And then most recently, the last kind of 10 years performance perform up until the Paris Olympics. I, I coach USA from relegation to nearly winning the World Series one year in 2019 and perform three Olympics.

But ultimately, kind of all of that selling stuff is about holistically developing young players to become the best version of themselves on the pitch and off the pitch, which is a big part for me. Uh, and yeah, also, you know, the underdog. Always kind of suited me. Um, even back in the England days when we were under dogs, we weren't taking seven seriously.

And we, we ended up Yeah. Turning that into a, uh, a development plan. Machine performance. So performance, yeah. Perform. It's been interesting. Life. I perform, I've seen a lot of countries performance, performance, interacting with a, with a, with a lot of [00:03:00] performance, different cultures. Um, you know, just recently last summer I was in the RPL, the inaugural RPL perform.

Yeah. In India, which again, was another experience, you know, performance Sri Lanka back in the day perform. So yeah, it's, it's been a, it's been a great career. Perform, um, perform performance, hopefully hopeful. There's a few more chapters in it. Um, but we, we'll see. Yeah. 'cause we, we caught up at the London City Sevens just before you flew off to the, uh, the RPL and that, and those little tournaments, like the London City Sevens, we saw an absolute plethora of young talent and, well, obviously it's quite apparent now, obviously it was the, uh, the, the S'S lad glory in that to Yeah.

Noah played. In the, in the to, in the tournament at looked quality and then goes and scores five tries on his debut. There's there, there must be something that adds together. And it's something that I've asked previously on the podcast as well that why isn't Sevens being used more [00:04:00] as that development model?

Like it used to be, as you said, that I've, we, we know we've, we've got plenty to get into in this anyway, but yeah, like it is, it is the perfect in-between like for players that are exceptionally talented but also need to find a way of being blooded in a little bit. Yeah. On a world stage or even on a sort of a corporate stage.

Like, 'cause there was a period of time that they did, um, prem Sevens as well weren't there 'cause I was speaking to the late great, uh, Warren Abrahams on here. Yeah. Even been on the, as a previous guest and we, I, we spoke to him about the sevens and potentially being. Branded a sevens coach as well, which obviously we'll get onto to you as well on that, on that sort of model.

But he said about the development model there. Do you agree that something as rugby we've completely come away from and it's a wasted resource? I, I I think it's all about language, if I'm honest with you because you, you know, you've hit, you've hit on a [00:05:00] lot of points there. And let's talk about the mature nations.

Let's just talk about England, Scotland, Wales, right? Ireland, yeah. Well, less so Ireland. 'cause it's not really part of their model, but, um, if you, if you, if you take like a Noah Calori, right? It's a great example. He was exposed, um, at that city sevens as part of his rugby. Yeah. Um. Diet, let's just call it.

Yeah. Different experiences, different circumstances, but ultimately playing rugby it and in, in a way where he is gotta solve problems. But I look at it a little bit more differently, right? So I look at my son, Lucas, right? Who's Harlequins, yeah. Again, same as y, same year ahead of Noah and so forth. Perform England, twenties, blah, blah, blah.

Perform seven performance, perform, you know, performance. He's, he's enjoying it. Perform, perform, perform. But all of these players, right, they go into the England twenties performance perform and so forth. Performance. Performance and you know, England profess performance that, yeah, look at us developing all of these players perform performance and they are developing them and they are getting experiences and they are going to the World Cups and so forth.

But what. People seem to not realize is that for one [00:06:00] term, from the ages of 10 to 18, all of these players are exposed to a different form of the game called sevens, which culminates in Rosalyn Park Sevens, which is a few, a full term of rugby development, doing something different to achieve the ultimate aim.

So when we talk about sevens and the player pathway piece perform, we have to talk about seven performance as it's an investment performance. It's not the performance, the whole answer, it is part of the pathway perform. It's part of the answer. Performance, performance, performance. But the, the bean counters at the RFU look at well performance.

We can't afford to spend 2 million to, to on a seventh team to take them round the world because we need to spend it on all of these other things. Exactly. You know, we have to do England Day and we have to do. Perform, we've got the women's going to invest in and so forth. So as a consequence, it's deemed that, well, it doesn't give us a return on investment, therefore we're not doing it when actually it's part of the whole holistic development perform of a player that we'll get a better version of itself perform.

So yes, we saw no glory, great going, perform forward on the high ball catching kickoffs, [00:07:00] perform, but that's only part of the game. Perform like no one's gotta learn performance. The, the realms of defending space perform and dealing with, with high boys going backwards and so forth, perform. And part of that be fifteens and sevens perform and they all have perform performance.

Performance. So I say to to the powers that B in these rugby mature nation, stop looking at the perform the perform, perform the bottom line on your sevens and start looking at it as an investment performance. And the reality is, is that perform in England, we are very fortunate perform, let's just say.

And the fact performance that we've got a very mature academy system and, and those guys come through, but they come through in a very insular. Granular way rather than a holistic, rounded way like they did in the old days where you're experienced, yeah. Perform, you understand how to tour, perform, you meet other cultures performance, perform as well as perform, you perform performance.

This intense pressure as a perform, as a rugby player, performance, performance perform. So I would, I I I think them perform them, perform missing a trick. Perform, perform, they're performance, dressing up to suit them. Performance, perform, um, perform. I also perform think when you look, perform in, in the eng in England as an example, right, with our university development, this can be another route [00:08:00] back into rugby perform where you create positive role models at the top of the game.

Perform, perform. If you don't quite make in the academy at 1819, perform is your journey over. No. Well, Don Branch wasn't perform. He went to, to Cardiff met, perform, perform, you know, north Wall, Cardiff Met, perform, and there there are many others. Perform that them find their way back into the system.

Perform, perform. If you hit our university model, perform, perform, we can perform, we can cradle to grave this perform performance, perform from five year olds through the school system, perform into university. Ultimately then to create a. Perform an international Sevens side perform, whether it's Team gb, perform, whether it's the British Lions, or whether it's England, Scotland, Wales, I think is all to be perform considered, perform probably in a, in a firm question that you've probably asked me.

Perform. Performance. Performance. But I think it performance, performance, performance, it's performance, perform. It's, it's mad. Performance to performance. Performance. Allow the international sevens to be killed off in, in team TB of what they're doing at the moment where they've turned it into a part-time team.

The only full-time players seem to be Scottish players because New Sephora sees value in it. Funny enough, smart man performance, perform, perform, and the [00:09:00] other nations can't be bothered to invest in it, perform, perform, perform. And I think that's dangerous perform because I think you can have knock on effects, perform performance, perform in the wider game the communities came.

And I think there's an opportunity to grow this game in our geography, say in in in England, as well as around the world performance. So that it's, uh, performance, performance, it will bring your audiences in because ultimately appeals to the younger audience performance perform. And we are an aging perform audience performer, um, at international level fifteens and the ship performance.

So, I, performance, performance, I thinks a bit of a long-term investment play that we need to look at here. Performance. Performance as well as the natural player development pieces that historically has shown performance. It continues to show with, you know, all of these young under 20 boys that are coming through now, performance, you know, the golden generation that they're talking about, perform.

They've all played, sevens perform for at least one term since the age of 10 through to 18. Perform, perform. And that's when you have that acceleration of learning. But ultimately you're not the waiing perform, yes. Perform you need to become a 15 player. Perform Sevens [00:10:00] will enable them performance to do that perform.

So performance perform. I think there are so many different layers to this that, uh, performance that, that performance we're missing. And, and as you say, you, you ship it right back to the city sevens right. Performance. That is a perfect segue for performance. All people that come through the perform, perform wherever it is.

They've been discarded. They come through the club pathway, they come through the perform, perform the Seventh Circuit, perform, perform the National Sevenths Plan, perform, um, you know, like the Lit seven circuit perform. And all of a a sudden they, there's a forum for them to, to compete on a level playing field and, and show their wares and perform.

Now I know it was Quinn Sarason final perform, performance perform, but the two semi-finals, which were against two kind of let's just say quality sevens imitation teams, um, created opportunity for both sides to experience different things and develop, perform. And everybody performance perform went away in a, in, in a positive way.

And, and corporately perform, perform investment, money wise and so forth. Perform performance, performance, performance. These people are, are exposed, um, both ways. So performance, performance perform, I just [00:11:00] think there's an opportunity there. Perform that we are not perform maximizing performance.

Performance. And I think that's the point. Performance. Correct. So I'm gonna hit you with this one then. R 360. Obviously they're trying to push forward with the fifteens model. Yeah. Are they doing it the wrong way and should, have they targeted the sevens model to start with and open that corporate model and then loan players into the model that need that development, rather than go and say, we're gonna try and steal players from everyone else.

Yeah. Well, I think the R three six model is, is, is about. I mean, again, this, it's controversial, right? And people can agree, disagree. I think interestingly, R 360 is just trying to solve a financial issue in the 15 game. Agree. Yeah. And the reality is, is, hey, it's for me, the king is dead long lived the king.

You take the top a hundred players. You know, we didn't know about Marcus Smith in his 18, 19. We all rave about him now, but there'll be another guy coming through and he'll, he'll become a superstar. And that's what you want, one in, one ready. I think that's the, yeah, that's the challenge for all these Premiership [00:12:00] clubs.

So if you lose your top players, like if you're a Harlequin supporter, you are a Northampton supporter, you just want your team to win and compete. Right? And yeah, the stars are the stars. So I think R 360, and what they're trying to do is they're just trying to solve a monetary issue. Whether or not I agree with it or not, I mean.

The reality is, is if you can play R 360, but you are available for your country then and, and it, and it takes a burden away from the clubs and the country, then why wouldn't you consider that? So I think, I think the model there for the fifteens is what is, I think there is an opportunity in the RPL showed us this, um, yeah, with, with a way that you can.

Create credible livings for sevens players, um, whereby the superstars who might not be the superstars in the fifteens, you know, you, you, Marcus Manetta isn't a star in the fifteens, but a star in the sevenths Perry Baker we would never have heard of. Yeah. If you hadn't been for the sevens. Um, yeah. The reality is I think that you, if you can create that type of [00:13:00] opportunity, be that on a single geography like India did, you know we could do that in the UK for sure.

Or whether that's a cross border one. Um, yeah, it's best of the best on a franchise as long as it compliments the World Series. Let's say on the seventh front, we're in business. 'cause the World Series is the key because that's the key to our Olympics and that allows. To then build other competitions and tournaments to leverage new audiences and new money and new opportunities into the world.

So R 360 I think is a model that is very, very like, that you could do on the sevens, but I think the sevens is a unique opportunity because we build around the World Series. I think, I mean, again, whether we think the World Series in its current state is the right way, is is another point. But I think there's opportunity to commit to create commercial leagues that compliment the World Series, don't compete.

'cause if you compete then you are, you're, you're causing problems. But I think to compliment, and I [00:14:00] think that's probably the argument on the R 360, they think it will compete with the domestic league rather than compliment. Um, and I think it depends what way you look at that. The strength of the premiership, I think is tribal.

So I think that the, the traditional, um, supporter base will stay true to their. To their roots. And I think the reality is it's just the in and out of the players. But as I said, the king is dead long lived, the king. I'm a, I'm a great believer that, you know, times stands still for nobody in rugby. When you're an old player.

Yeah, you are. You're in, you're gone. And somebody's news in, and I think it will, it'll create depth in our, in our talent pool as well. I think obviously Ben Young's made it quite clear on the love of rugby when he said, um, if he was offered it at 33, he'd probably explore the option, but when he was 21, he wouldn't be interested at all.

'cause obviously he had goals to set. Yeah. Because obviously they're pretty ev everyone's basically said every nation apart from cer like Fiji have basically turned around and said, you're not, you are not able to go and play [00:15:00] in 360. And play for your national sites. So, but that's the point. That's the point though, is you're not, like, that's the point is like, why are the countries doing that if it doesn't commit, if it doesn't, if it doesn't conflict with the international windows.

And I think the interesting question for Ben Youngs would've been if you were 21, 22, 23 and you could play for England and play R 360 or Leicester, what, what would you do? And you know, back in the day when Ben Young's probably started loyalty Ha um, and loyalty's a two way thing, um, right. Would've said, I'm a Lester boy through and through.

Right. And he might have been. 'cause that's who he's grown up on. The terrace he's watching, but he, three or four years in, he's 24, 25. I've, I've only got, I, I need to maximize my earnings. Um, and R 360 are offering him, I don't know, I'm making the numbers up here. Right. They offer him a million a letter offering him 300 grand.

Yeah, I I I'm sorry. He's going to R 360 because he can still play for England. And I think that's the, is that a restriction of trade? I dunno. Um. And I think that that's probably the, that's probably the next path that's gonna come in. Oh my [00:16:00] Lord. Is how many, well, look, you look at what's happening in football, like Lasana, Diara, he got, obviously got stuck in the middle of the, the major issue when Russian, uh, wrote, uh, football stopped because of COVID and obviously the, the war and everything.

He wasn't allowed to free transfer in between. And there's a massive lawsuit that's going on in football that's basically gonna bring the whole transfer system crashing down. Yeah. And they had the Bosman rule, everything like that. So it's, it's coming. But who's gonna put their hand in the pocket to go and speak to the lawyers?

That's the, that's, that's the other one. Well mean the R 360 boys have got money, right. They've got deep pockets. But I, I mean, hopefully it doesn't come to that. I think, I think that No, I have not. I mean, you know, there are, you can argue it both ways. R 360, like the, the, the, the unions will say, you, you're gonna hit the community game.

You're gonna hit the this, you're gonna hit that. And, you know, there's, there, there's a plausible way to look at that. But ultimately, at the top of the game. There's a, there's a, there's a financial hold that at the moment owners are filling, [00:17:00] um, correct. And, you know, the unions are making big money, so it, it's, it, it's an easy, it's a difficult one.

Um, and I, and I think, you know, world rugby don't want to obviously lose control because obviously the fifth 15 World Cup is a. Huge money maker. Um, yeah. And that, that does underpin the game at na at a nation's level. And, and ultimately we, we want to find a way to create more opportunities for more countries to play.

And, and again, we're probably getting to how, how best to do that, but ultimately that's the only, yeah. Um, but, you know, world rugby will, will hold very tightly onto anything on the 15 side. So it is very much, Turkey's vote for Christmas for sure. Um, and, and R 360 have probably got a fair bit to do on their admin and, and so forth side to ensure that all of their ducks are in a row.

So I don't think the story's over. I, I think fair play, the unions have all kind of circled the wagons. Um, [00:18:00] and, and as have the NRL as well. I mean, that's a Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean that's a, that's a major state. Yeah. 10 years, 10 year ban. Was it 10 year. 10 year ban. I mean, that's a restriction of trade as well, but Yeah.

But, but again, like you said, who's gonna pick up. Phone to the lawyer and, and underwrite it. Um, yeah, it's, it's messy, proper, messy. That's rugby though. It doesn't seem to go too easy, does it? People are very resistant to change, as we know. Like cha change is, is not a, a well known factor within rugby.

Getting onto obviously the world, the, the world scene as well as you said, the Women's World Cup we've just had in England was probably one of the, potentially one of the biggest spectacles of the turning point for the women's game financially. I was looking at some of the figures and I think we still made a significant loss, or world rugby lost a significant amount of money on that.

Nobody talks about it. 'cause obviously it was yeah, such a pivotal and important part of the game. How can we get that so wrong for something that had such a big hype, [00:19:00] such a big platform, such a big opportunity. The media rights weren't great, to be honest. Like, I think the media rights weren't sold in a, in a way for.

That to make money there. It was more of a, a tournament to create for the next one, or was it just they don't know how to make money and it was just a lost leader? I just think it's an evolution. I think you, you people need to remember that the women's game has only really been professional properly.

Right. And only with a few nations the last four or five years. So it's, we're kind of back 95 to 99 in the men's game, if we're honest. Yeah. Um, and you know, Nelson Mandela and, and that World Cup in 95, that, that was a pretty impressive spectacle. Um, yeah. And I think, look, we just gotta, we, we've gotta let it develop.

Everybody's in a hurry. Right. The women will get there. A lot quicker than I think they're doing brilliant. A lot quicker than the men did in terms of, um, in terms of potential. But you've gotta let it, you've only let it evolve. [00:20:00] I think there's a lot of inspiring that's gone on in this last World Cup, I think in terms of, you've gotta see it to be it.

And you, you know, the, the, the pitches in the stadiums of, of dads with daughters and moms with daughters, and when you listen in the stadium, it's a different feel and hear that you, you have, it's a different audience. So I think the girls have done an amazing job of marketing and inspiring a, um, and mobilizing the wi the women's game as a credible alternative for, yeah, for as, as a sporting piece and, and a, and a place where you can actually actively earn a living.

But in terms of, you know, when you look at the hard and fast commercial realities of it all, probably, it's probably not easy to make money commercially at the moment. It's just early days. It's evolution. So. Don't compare yourself to where the men's game is and the, the money that's been generated that I don't, no, not not yourself, but anybody.

Yeah. The reality is in, in understand, it's a, it's a journey and a process. They will get there a lot [00:21:00] quicker, but they, they just need time. And I think, yeah, I think the, the, the foundations have been laid. And it's, it's how they embrace and how they kick on and how they invest in that. You know, and to that point, that's probably where the, what's what's lacking in the women's game at the moment is depth and more nations that are able to compete.

Because what you are seeing is for every year that goes by where you've got France and England that are ultimately professional, that's every year that the tier two of the developing nations fall back, fall back, fall back, which is what happens in the men's game. And now you know that the, the, the gap between the nations is probably ir irreconcilable on the men's side and on the women's side.

We need to learn the lesson to make sure that doesn't happen. So the likes of Samoa and Fiji and things like that actually can keep up with the likes of New Zealand, Australia, England, France, and the home nations. So I think that's the lesson that we need to ensure, because what we want is in the women's game, you want.

10, 12 teams that can win the [00:22:00] fifteens world cup. We are never gonna have that in the men's game ever now. Um, so I, I think that's the opportunity for, for the women's game to embrace. I think things like R 360 don't necessarily work for the women's game, but we go for equality, right? What we do in the men's, we must do in the women's, but that the R 360 definitely would hurt the women's game right now because there isn't the.

The depth of world to be able to service the sevens and the fifteens a as well. Because if you think about the difference between the men's and the women's game is that the women's game, the players still are able to cross over to do both. Um, whereas the men's game, it's, it's, they've become two different player pools.

And who's to say that won't happen in the women's, but that's, it can't happen until you have enough depth across the board to do that. So I think it, I think it was an, an amazing tournament. I think they did. Oh, was, yeah. A fantastic job. The players in terms of what they put on, um, and [00:23:00] full STAs. I mean, I think that in itself tell, tells a story and I think the money will follow.

I just think that they need to be patient and not too greedy and just, you know, they're gonna leave it all in a better place. And, and that's, that's the reality. And I think as you, you hit the nail on the head when you said alternative. 'cause a lot of people compare the women's game to the men's game.

It's a completely different act. Like it's a completely different spectacle. It, they do everything differently and they do what works for them and for the, the supporters. There's a whole different diff level of support. A lot, there's a lot of men that won't watch women's rugby because they're, they don't class it as a.

Performance sport. But it, as we said, it's an, it's an alternative way of getting kids into rugby. Like as you said, the amount of families that go to the game. And that, the greed point, I'm not saying about losing money on ticket sales, it was as was this probably advertised through the media as well as as possible.

'cause there wasn't as many coverage as many platforms available [00:24:00] to watch it. But that will come with time hopefully. So obviously that will change as, as an education piece as well. Right. 'cause we've still, you know, exactly. Some nations embrace it, others are still a little bit reluctant. Um, yeah. And, and, and you've just hit the nail on head as well.

They are two very different sports. But don't forget the women's game is bringing new audiences is that's what's fresh about this. It's perfect, it's brilliant. And our sport needs new audiences because we're our 15. Sport is aging out a little bit on the men's side and they need to, yeah, we need to find a way to reinvigorate and rejuvenate and re-engineer, um, and, and so forth.

And you know, there is a little bit of ignorance around some of the, the, the women's game and so forth, but that's takes education. That takes time and patience. Um, and the girls are doing a fantastic job. Right. But it, but the games are different, right? There's a lot more space. Yeah. You know, I, I, I liken it to tennis is like the men's game in tennis is power.

So volley the women's game is, is, is so much more fluent. Um, and there's more [00:25:00] rallies and the bulls alive a lot more. There's, you know, and so forth. And that, that I think is the beauty of the, of, of, of the two forms. They're all rugby. Yeah, but they're just a different style. Exactly. That because like obviously I, I go a lot, I cover a lot of the Spanish women's and stuff as well, and go.

And just like watching people like Claudia Pena and, um, good player and, and just the what a player, good player and just such a, a lovely person as well. When you meet her and you talk to her and she's just so humble about all of it. But she could find space in the phone box like, couldn't she? She's different gravy.

And then you've got players that are coming through and I think the, the, the women's prem, uh, is, is now evolving with so many different nationalities coming in. And I, I think that's the only issue is there's potentially not. It's, well, it's the same as the men's to be honest. The, the championship doesn't really [00:26:00] compliment the prem.

There's not that there, there is not quite enough to create a debt visit debt player. There's no, there's no debt visit. Right. So if you look at the P wr r, the amount of overseas players that come, because they haven't got that in their country as well. So the PWR is, is along with the, with the French League is, is, is flying everybody.

And, and as a consequence, you know, you've got a lot of European and North American, uh, and South American players over here, right? Less so from, from Oceania and so forth. But they tend to go to Japan and they have a very small, tight season, um, down there. But you know, you're seeing Aussies coming across, seeing a couple of Kiwis now coming across as well.

Sign for quit. I saw that. So. I think the PWR is at the forefront, but there isn't the depth there, right? So again, we wanna bring through our domestic players and, and as you say, the champ, the championship is, is, is a struggle. 'cause that's purely amateur and these girls have to work full time. It, it's very much like the, the kind of the early nineties eighties where, you know, [00:27:00] it is, but it's, it's evolution and it takes time and, and you know, it, it's, it's not, it's, it's not straightforward.

But I think, you know, we with the PWR is creating those tribal pieces in the women's game as well. You know, you, you look at Gloucester, har, I know we're doing fantastic. You look at Bristol and, and so forth. It, we just need to get consistency of. Uh, of competition. We need to get consistency of environments for these girls as they become more and more full-time at these clubs.

But that, like anything, right? Those programs cost money. So who's paying for this money? How's that money being financed? Is that the clubs that have gotta do it? Because if you, if you look at the premiership clubs, say like, you know, like the Gloucester and the Lesters and things like that, that they're under the pump trying to make money for the, with the men's rugby.

And now they're gonna try and do the same with the women's or invest and so forth. And it's not easy, right? And you then come full circle back to your R 360, there's the R 360 release, a large chunk of your biggest costs, [00:28:00] which are labor, labor costs, which will be player salaries. And all of a sudden does it, does it, does it create, but it takes.

A cooperation and coordination rather than a conflict to get where we need to get to, very much like live golf again. And it is all over again. It's the same sort of model, like, and then the, they'll, they'll go to a Christmas party together and everyone will get pissed up and it'll all, they'll all shake hands and we'll all be safe.

And rugby was saved and we, this will be a point pointless podcast all over again. Let, let's hope, let's hope so. Hey. Yeah. Um, red Bull have obviously come into to Newcastle. Do you think they'll ever dabble across into the, the women's, do you think that's a potential game changer? Possibly, yeah. I mean, because obviously, so Gallagher of Gallagher have obviously come in and sponsored the, the women's, the PWR, so they've, there, there's financial.

Corporate decisions being made at a, at a sponsorship level, is there, is there a sort of a potential Red Bull franchise [00:29:00] purchase? I don, I, I, I, I, I mean it would, it, I think it, uh, it hasn't worked at Newcastle yet, obviously, but, well, yeah. See, I, it'd be interesting at Newcastle, just when you look at the signings that they've made.

Right. And I'm not interested about the player signings. I've looked at the fact they've got Gregor Townsend as, as a, as a consultant consultant. They've got a Scottish former S-R-U-C-E-O. They've got a, a Scottish guy that's director of operations driving their, um, their general manager. And I'm like, there's a lot of SRU influence here and Newcastle's just across the way.

Does this become the Scottish third team? Um, or the third, third piece right now, again, Hey, red Bull. We'll bring stars in for sure, because actually they, everything they can offer outside their salary cap in terms of performance and so forth. But all of a sudden, if you are SRU, you're like, actually we, from the women's side, this is perfect for us.

Yeah. Um, and for Home Six [00:30:00] Nations rugby on the women's side, that's perfect. And for Red Bull, it's, and it's the Northeast. I I think it makes a lot of sense. I think Red Bull, I think Red Bull's smart because I think they, they see a potential opportunity in the game and a gap in the market, in, in picking an area that they've picked.

I think whether they can monetize and create, and they might have, they might create money in a different way, right? They might, the, the rugby might be the conduit, not the direct investment money, but they're all buying sporting teams and organizations and franchises and so forth. So, um, I, I, I think there's a lot of opportunity and potential there because of where Newcastle is located.

And, and the way that they seem to be building their, their infrastructure. Um, yeah, it's interesting, but I wouldn't be surprised and I, and I hope so, because I think that would be great. It'd be nice, wouldn't it? It'd be great for the women's, the Gallagher Women's, because it would, it would open the door and it would certainly, if [00:31:00] SIU embraced it make Scotland a far stronger proposition on the women's side because they'd be able to develop a, a bigger pool.

And if. And actually, I know England, the red roses might look as a bit of an encroachment, but the reality is, is competition is good. Right. It drives everything, drives forward. So yeah, I, it's exciting times up in the, in the tune, I think for, for Red Bull. Do you, do you reckon they're gonna enc count the same issue as the PIF in the, in the football?

Obviously they've struggled to actually get players to move to the Northeast, like a lot of players. Jack, Jack Knowles, what? He's a Red Bull sponsored player. Yeah. Is there, is he gonna sacrifice the South of France to Well, that's Coach. I doubt that's a lifestyle choice. I, I, I think, I think like anything, like dare I say it, money talks.

So the, the reality is there's some fantastic, there's some lovely places up in the, in the, in the, in, in the northeast anyway, you know, you know, whether you wanna be in and around, but I, [00:32:00] you know, you ain't far from Edinburgh and, and and so forth and, and the borders. And, and so I, I dunno, I, I, I think. I think it's, it's a lot easier from a rugby perspective.

It's very different. Like I say, you taxing to the, in the Premier League, to, to Newcastle when you're, you're down in Monaco and everybody earns a bucket load of money. So it is, I think the reality is, is that rugby is, is not as, they're not as fortunate enough to be as picky. So, yeah, I I I wouldn't be surprised.

Yeah, fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised. I think there that there'll be some big names that land at, at the Red Bull. Who knows? Finn Russell might be going back up there as the, the third Scottish team. Ah, I mean he, he's, I know he sounds weird, but, but it's not. Uh, yeah. So we've now gotta get onto the World Series and as we sort of caught up briefly before this, how un uninspiring is it at the minute?

Obviously Dubai Sevens is on the, on the horizon at the end of November. [00:33:00] Limited, a limited fictionist, a limited amount of teams, a pretty lackluster. Draw is, are we just going through the motions now or is there actually, do you think there's a bigger plan to this and it's just a case of we've gotta scale back to start again.

I, I don't dunno. It is a plan. That's the problem. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very vocal. The people that are running the, the World seven series, the leadership, the Sam Pinders, the Nigel Cassis are getting it massively wrong, you know? Yeah. And, you know, let's look at it. The sevens, the world sevens is a way for any country in the world to compete legitimately.

The fifteens is a done deal on the, on the men's. It's one of three or four nations are winning at that. Is it in in the sevens? Any, we, when we were back in five, six years ago, any team from eight or nine could win. Yeah. And that's saying something, right? That's proper legitimate compensation competition.

And, and, and you know, I include the USA in that I include Kenya in that, you know, non-traditional rugby, [00:34:00] mature nations, they were tearing up trees and causing problems for the traditional yeah. Nations to, to where we are now. Which is, as I said, it was a pretty uninspiring 18, two pools of four announcement for Dubai.

I mean, it was, it is a shambles. And the, and the reality is that we've got a World Cup fifteens that's expanding to 24 teams. 'cause they're trying to, you know, grow the game. Like you're not growing the game because it's not legitimate. It's only gonna, it's gonna be the same four teams in the semifinals.

And, you know, these other teams are just, they're just making up the numbers. Yet in the, in the, in the form of the game, which is genuinely able to grow it globally. You are reducing it from 16 to 12 to eight and you're making it harder for these countries that want to invest to invest because the countries that don't want to invest, which are the likes of.

The home nations, the likes of Australia. Yeah. The likes of New Zealand, the likes of South Africa, they don't, they want to minimize their investment because they wanna put it into other parts of their game. [00:35:00] But what they're not prepared to do is give up their standing in the sevens. What they do is, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll make it really difficult for everybody else to actually compete so we'll, we'll put our votes together at World Rugby, we'll all amalgamate, and then we'll, we'll get it cut down at EXCO from 12 to eight.

And it's like you're just, you're not growing the game. You're killing the game you're trying to save, but you wanna keep your place at the table for the Olympics. And if you don't wanna invest properly, then that's fine. Then you take your chances and. Kenyas, let the Uruguay let the, um, USA, let the Canadas come through and actually dominate along with Fiji, who is their national sport, and, and, and go past you.

Spain. Spain, seriously. Spain has started taking, I mean, you know, Argentina have got the perfect balance of between the two, but when you look at the whole thing, it's like this, this is, this is votes, this is positioning by mature nations, and then they dress it up. This is the bit that frustrates me. They dress it up by saying, well, we lost 27 million.

You lost 27 million, or whatever you lost, or whatever [00:36:00] number you, you make up. And it changes from, from week to week. You lost it because you stopped trying to be a federation and tried to be an events company. You are not an events company. So. Do buy, make money. Why? Because they're an events company. Hong Kong make money because they run it like an event and they do it.

So let the unions or let in the private event people run the events. You don't try and make money. Your job is to create a platform to allow these countries to develop, evolve, and, and globally compete to grow the game globally. You make your money on the fifteens World Cup 'cause that's, you know, that is life falling off.

That's falling off a log. Do you know what I mean? It it, so you, you're not equipped and you don't understand the dynamics of of of, of how to, to, to make sevens work in the geography. Because the sevens is a, is a, in event it is an in event experience. It's not built for television. Yeah, it's not built for television.

No, but you are, but you are, but, but all you are trying to do is make it shorter and shorter, [00:37:00] tighter and tighter. In order to do that. It's not, you've got, it's about the, it's about making money at the event and creating a festival or an experience that hopefully then you can broadcast, because broadcast will be interested to a point, but maybe you've got to do that over three to air over the top or whatever.

So that all the modern audiences that they do now is they, you know, my sons would, would set their clocks for the games they wanted to watch, and then they, you click on YouTube and you watch 'em or you whatever, and you monetize and you create incomes in a different way. So. I think I worry because I look at where we are now and eight teams that will kill off other programs around the.

I mean, I've seen it, you know, I, I mean, I've left USA 18 months ago and look where they are now. Yeah. And they're, they're investing less and less and less because it's becoming harder and harder. You, you look at Samoa, you look at Uruguay who have constantly been there or thereabouts, but aren't given the, the consistency to stay on it.

Look at [00:38:00] Kenya. They're yo-yoing up and down, when really they should be consistently building and becoming a force in Africa. If you are India, right, where they're trying to invest through the RPL, they're not oh, can hell chance. And whether they achieve it or not, they need the ability to dream. But you're making it harder for these countries to dream because you are closing the shop for the traditional rugby nations who don't really wanna invest.

You know? Yeah. It's, it is like even Germany, look at Germany, they were banging on the door in the, in the, the second tier now. And like, that's now effectively been closed as well. But Germany qualified, right? So if you think about the last in that, that debacle in LA where those top four teams that were qualified in the, in the relegation promotion thing, which Germany won one of those four spots, they then would tell, well, you're not going up 'cause it's an 18 league.

So what are we just, you've just changed the rules of the game during the year that we're playing the league. Totally, yeah. I mean it's, it's inco what is incompetent? It's wrong, it's morally [00:39:00] wrong. And you add well rugby defending what they're doing. And it's like the only people that get penalized funny enough are the nations, like Germany, Kenya, UUA, USA, all of the, all of the countries that don't have a, a say in the big picture.

But you know, Australia over the moon, you know, New Zealand and all, all the people on the exco. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're over. Yeah. All of that lobbying and, and you know, and people don't call it out, but the reality is that's what's wrong with the game because we are not, yeah. We are not got the best interest of the game at heart.

And, and don't talk to me about the finances because that's your incompetence as a, as a federation wanting to be an events company, you know that we look at team GB as a consequence of what, what's happened there. They, you know, where they've gone to now. Wow. Now again, this is a, probably a direct result of the fact that when they were trying to look at doing the legs for this year, London were gonna bring a leg back.

Like they were gonna do a leg. Yeah. World Series now would've gone, that would've been great for our game. [00:40:00] In, in, in, in, in, in the home miles. You know, in England specifically, when you think about Rosland Park and the schools and all that world, rugby made it impossible for the people running it to make money.

So as the consequences, well we're out. And as a consequence, that meant that Team GB went from being full-time to part-time. Now whether I agree that should be the only. Marker. That depends whether it goes full-time is is a non-point. But world rugby have have added to that and that's made it easier for the powers to be at, at England and Wales and Scotland to go, you know what, we're not, we're not doing this full-time anymore.

And we, we end up where we are, which is a, a group of players that are, are gonna go part-time into this, this 18 tournament and they're gonna be against programs that are still full-time and they're gonna get whooped and then it's going to further deteriorate. Now let's hope well rugby reverse this and go to a proper model.

Of 12 to 16 teams [00:41:00] and stop trying to be an events company and give it back to the unions. Yes. Offer. Offer it out. Just offer it. There's enough companies out there like, I've just, just got the list here. So Dubai, they're already set up to do a sevens model. Kate Town already experienced in events. There's enough stadiums there for 'em to do everything there.

Singapore, give that back to these si, SARU to make money. Right? But stop trying or give it to one of the, one of the clubs. One of the clubs. Let the clubs tender for it. So we're gonna do it in Joberg. We're gonna do it here. The club like Sharks or any like that, there's enough people, there's enough companies and experience that know how to make these events happen rather than adding to the wage bill at World Rugby Singapore, another one, Australia.

They've had one or two events in their lifetime. Vancouver, they've done a few USA. They know how to run an event. Hong Kong, biggest probably, potentially biggest sevens tournament in the world via the [00:42:00] lid. They're already gathering pace in Spanish. It's become the, the, the Spain's home ground effectively for rugby, right?

Bordeaux, another well renowned rugby. Why can't these be outsourced to the clubs? Why can't this be tended? Why can't the clubs have clubs or communities have the opportunity to win these bids? Same as like a World Cup or like when they bid for the Champions Cup. Let 'em say, right? I want, we want to host this.

Wait, this is what we can do. Yeah. You, you've with it. This is it. You can bring in as many teams as you want. We'll do this, we'll even sign it for two years or whatever. We spread the word of rugby. You need it, you need to sign it for multiple years because they, so the, so the people can make money. I think the reality is, is obviously you've got world rugby who, who are trying to, trying to make money, right.

With, with, with categories on corporate and, but obviously you need a consistency of execution, right? So there's a minimum standard in order to, that you've got to deliver as part of the contract and that that's all that needs to be happen. But in terms [00:43:00] of the ability to sell, um, certain categories, the sponsors and so forth, there's all these hindering things.

Well this one's we, we need that one. We need this one. So, hold on mate. Your federation, your job is to minimum standards to develop, to, to deliver the World Series in terms of how the, the event is monetized and, and, and, and made. Then that's a different point. And I think that whole model needs to change.

And world rugby need, but that's need to change their mindset and their mantra. They've, you know, they've gone down this route, but they've gone round it half cocked and they're not equipped to do it. I think, you know, when some of those venues you talked about, you know, that they're not necessarily equipped, but, and, and ultimately, is it, is it a union that undertakes, let's just say, let's take, um, take town as an example, right?

Saru undertake to, we are gonna have a sevenths event and we are gonna, we're gonna move it. Where are we gonna move it, but allows us to monetize. And we have these costs and these, these, um, [00:44:00] incomes. But ultimately that's what happens in Dubai. That's what happens in Hong Kong. And Hong Kong may do a bloody good job about it.

Dubai do a very good job. They've got longevity. They've got consistency, but they also know what they're doing. And yeah, and I think the, the, the, the World, world Series needs to be a series of individual events, which is what it used to be under the umbrella of this is how we do our world championship.

Because it's, you know, it's, it's, it'll be, it's a pinnacle experience for, for those that attend and then that allows, you know, IOC money and so forth to, to, to then be distributed to allow those nations to become self-sufficient, to build their own programs. But likewise, you wanna get to the Olympics, it's very, very clear.

You go through three to two to one. But the reality is, is it's not a closed shop at one. It's a 16 to, so there's a real credible route that you can make. Now, all of these PowerPoints they deliver at the moment as well. You, you can get from three to [00:45:00] one in one years like you can on that bit of paper, but you are nuts if you think that's possible because you've made it so difficult on your bit of paper to be able to compete.

The, the close shop of this eight up here, which funny enough, six of them are the main stakeholders on the on world rugby mean that even this mob in sevens two are a huge, huge disadvantage. So it's, it's, it's, it's an absolute mockery. And, and, and, and the people that are responsible, uh, you know, those, those sevens leadership, um, it, it's disappointing.

I, I'd love to see an external group, you know, I'd love to see an R 360 come and say, you know what? We'll run the World Series and we'll create an Yeah. And and the problem is though, world rugby will never do that because in case they make it a success, it looks like they've given away a golden egg. But rather than going, well, we've just saved you the 20 odd million you keep saying you are [00:46:00] losing and you can now spend that on the women's game and so forth or, or other parts of the age group, then great, but no, no, no, you are gonna do this full dawn, this 2014 fifteens World Cup, which doesn't really, you are doing, you've expanded the under twenties and that's, that's credible.

But let's vet, these are the under twenties from the eighties of 10 and 18, do a term of sevens as well. And you are excluding all of this group that seem to be discarded at 18 that go through our college models that may come back in. So I, I think they're doing a terrible job and they're, they are in danger of killing the world of sevens because.

If it, it continues on the trajectory it is, it will die. And if it dies, then it won't come back. I doubt. What, what will that then do to the grassroots thing, say in the uk? Like, what will happen to our Club Sevens program? What will happen to the Rosalind Park Sevens Because these boys have got no role models to, to [00:47:00] go at.

Right? Like, you know, I, I think about my, my, my Lucas, right? When he was growing up on the Fifteenths. Yeah. He was, he was looking at, you know, Danny Care and all that and wanted to be that when he was at, at Trinity, but as soon as you are on the seventh party, you want to be Nu and he wouldn't know if Lau knew it was unless he'd seen him on the world circuit.

And that's the problem. And, and every young kid aspires to, to do that. But that seems to be being lost because again, they just look at dollars, they look at, they look at the pound signs. I think that jumps back to the question as I, I POed at the start. I think. R 360 or a corporate model's got a prime opportunity probably to easy to break into the sevens to prove the proof of concepts.

Yeah. Uh, I get why they're focusing on the, the fifteens, the a hundred, a hundred best players. It's a, it is an easy sell. We've seen the passion and the acceptance of sevens and how it develops players. You can create as many superstars out of the sevens model, [00:48:00] and it's easier to move around and people are willing to go for a weekend rather than potentially one game.

Like you could, if you sort of talk to your mates and say, oh, well, I'm just gonna fly out to the middle of Afghanistan to watch an R 360 game, like one random game. They'll be like, why? Like bar for playing Bristol? Like there's. It's easier for people to buy into the sevens model in my life than, yeah, no, I agree with you.

Potentially the fifties is that I, I hundred percent agree with you. I think it, it, the Sevens World series is, is, is right for somebody with the vision. But again, it, it, it only works if, well rugby recognize their weaknesses and it, and put the right people. 'cause, 'cause say for example, R 360 came in, they'd still need to be that conduit with world rugby.

It's not about excluding world rugby. 'cause World Rugby's, the World Federation of the game. No. And they need to govern minimum standards and so forth, but. Let whoever R three six, they, there's let them run the events and, and they can, yeah. They [00:49:00] understand how to monetize events. Right. And you've just hit the nail on the head.

Right. You go to, you know, you are not, you go to the R 360 weekend if it as it would be, but like six games over three days. It's like, okay, well I'm kind of all six games. Whereas in the seventies, you can come in and out and, you know, you, you can have your favorite, you know, you, you've got tribal with your nation, but you've always got your second team that you love.

You know, normally it's Kenya, um, and, and, and so forth because the atmosphere. Yeah. But you've got the atmosphere. You've got everything that's going on and in and around in that event. So I, I, I am a hundred percent in agreement with you. It would make logical sense that somebody start with a sevens, but I can see why R 360 is bad DAR route.

But I think there's a gap for somebody to do it. But it only works if world Rugby. Realize and recognize they are not an events company. You are a federation. Stop trying to be an events company. You know, you've got Dubai and Hong Kong as the bookends already. Boom. And they, they are well [00:50:00] respected, renowned, traditional events.

Now, build it in between F1 model, whatever you want to call. I don't know, you know, however you want to kind of dress it up and then, but then make sure it's, it's for the rugby community, not the six or seven, um, countries. Because that doesn't create global representation. That doesn't create true global competition, which the sevens can do, which then aligns with the Olympic spirit at the moment.

We are so fortunate we're in the Olympics, but we're only in the Olympics. Yeah, un until 32. And then we got, now if they continue on the tree, they're gonna blow that. And I know it's like, oh, a hundred percent, you know, but we're in, we're in la and again, the Americans only back winners. Right. And if their countries are nowhere near it, then that'll, that'll drop.

Um, and then it's, it's Brisbane after that, isn't it? It's so, yeah. You know, I, I, I think, [00:51:00] I think rugby is in a very precarious next couple of years, especially Rugby Sevens we now can touch on to, like, we've mentioned it a couple of times, the, the fifteens World Cup. I was at the Portugal Island, a game in the summer where Ireland won 106 seven.

There's a lot of concern from a lot of people that, that's gonna be similar sort of score lines at the World Cup. There's clubs that will stand out a little bit, but it was even more apparent when the likes of Georgia. Are currently trying to stake their claim as a tier one and a half Nation or whatever they want to, whatever they should be got battered as well by island day.

Uh, but what quite convincingly, a 40, 48, 5 or something else, whatever it was. I love. Tier two nation stuff, obviously I'm part of it here, being there will be, there will be nations that [00:52:00] stand out, but it's just the 24 clubs is a great idea. If the rest of it is able to be invested in and progress, I mean yeah, I agree.

24, but 24 countries means it's gonna, there's gonna be some absolute car crashes because the reality is, is the, the differential now between the top and the, and the next group is ridiculous. That's ridiculous. You know? Yeah. And, and you know, if you think about when we were back to the World Cups in 91, 95, right?

Where an EV 87 with Japan were, were coming through, you know, and New Zealand was spanking them by a hundred points. Okay, that's 91, right? Yeah. That's 20 odd 24 years. It's taken us like, so again, you could argue we're doing this for the next 25 years. Okay, fine. But I think the difference between then and now is that everybody was embracing the start professionalism, but were predominantly [00:53:00] amateur.

Yeah. So the level playing field around the physical development piece was relatively even now that 25 years I think is 50 years, or, I just think it's unobtainable is my point. I think it, I think you, you, you're comparing two different times that are not comparable and, and I just think it, it, I think sadly fifteens, the fifteens is a sport played globally by a few nations.

At the top. That's it. And I think that's the reality of this. And I don't think that will change. Now. I think it's, you know, it is what it is, right? American football's just played in America. It's still hugely successful. But that's, it's about now how do you globally make that appealing to the rest of the world who can't play it?

And I think that's the challenge on the 15th side. I think those nations that want to great. But I think it's a little bit of false hope that you have a 2014 [00:54:00] rugby World Cup where you know you are, you're gonna get spanked. I mean, like, you remember that, that that Pacific Nations cup, they just right.

Where USA have just qualified and I think was Samoa that did just, it was harder not to qualify than qualify. Like I think they lost all the games and they, they won the last game against Samoa who was outside the Red Nine. So they couldn't use their proper players and they scraped the win and they, and they're in the World Cup and it's like.

Like it's nuts. I, I just, I just think it's, it, it's, it's false hope. It's a false dawn. Um, and it's a little bit misleading to the, the punters that when you get to World Cup, right, and again, 'cause they're probably gonna charge you 150 pound a ticket to go and watch the blood bath. And that's not great either.

Um, so I, I, I, I don't, I don't see it myself as a wash and it worries me a little bit really. 'cause I think it [00:55:00] could be negative for the game rather than a, the a positive, the, the, the qu the cold qualification process has been extremely unnecessarily complicated. Like Rugby Europe championships, we had five clubs.

So four Nations basically qualified already after the second game. 'cause that was already structured for Spain, Georgia, Portugal, and Romania to qualify Romania were then absolutely dog shit for the rest of the tournament until the last game against Portugal. Portugal blew up after the semi-final against Spain.

They fell apart. Georgia obviously were doing what Georgia do. Spain were obviously the one that was probably taking it seriously. We then saw Belgium. Put in the best performance of the tournament against Holland and Netherlands to get their qualification spot for the Repartage. We then had a Pacific Nations Cup where Japan, Fiji had [00:56:00] already qualified playing against clubs that had to try and go nations that had to try and get third and fourth spot, fifth and sixth were able to play each other to qualify.

And then fifth, fifth qualify. Qualifi still qualified already to get through to the rep charge. So, and then the only one that didn't. Yeah. And then it was, then we've got, so we've got five clubs out of the the Rugby Europe championships. We've got eight, nine, ki whatever, however many run out of the Pacific Nations.

Then you go down to South America, which had the top two had to qualify out of the group. Then the, the third had, third had third, fourth, fifth, and sixth. Had to play a qua qualifier against each other. Then they got to a final, they played, one played, they got through, Uruguay got through. So, uh, and then Paraguay just had to play Brazil.

Paraguay then filled an ineligible player, so they've fucked himself outta recharge. So Brazil are back in. And then we've got obviously the African nations. They, they played [00:57:00] off. And what is it, Nambia in there as well. And I love being able to watch that amount of rugby. But Christ, that is, why are we doing it so half fast?

Why can't we just create one model? And they like the, like the sevens. Like, is, is there an opportunity for the fifteens qualification model to be like a nation's league where all of these clubs get to play against each other and actually have a merit based system like we've got Yeah, I mean the problem with that is they come back to money.

Right? Because these is who, who, who's financing it, right? 'cause the unions can't afford it. Well, rugby aren't gonna do it. Um, and like you've just said, they just created these geographical. Um, competitions because it obviously, it creates interest, um, keeps, costs down, surely playing the na the Nation's Cup in that.

America wasn't any cheaper for anyone else, like the likes of Fiji, Tonga, Sam, it was all played in. Yeah. America, I mean, I mean like with all of those, but Well, like you've just said though, most of them are meaningless games [00:58:00] because five out the six are qualified. Yeah. So, you know, but we're getting valuable game time and so forth.

Well, okay. I mean, like the, the reality is, is, is is, like you said, you might as well do it on a, on a, on a, on a point system, on a tiering system. So you can pick your, pick your fixtures, and then ultimately you have a repper charge for the last spots and that the Repper charge could be for the last four spots.

I don't know. I, I, I don't, I just, I just, to me it was, it was a mess, but it's a mess because they've gone to 24 teams and, and it, 24 teams a find a wave. Wow. It just, it's just a waste of time. But, but ultimately it allows them to create more meaningless games, which they think they can monetize at the same cost that they're gonna be able to monetize the big games.

I, I mean, hazard, I guess that's, that's it. And then, you know, I'll be dressed up as, uh, you know, it's opportunity for all and things like that. It's like, well, but, but international sport is about proper competition and you are, that's anything but proper competition. And then you, like you [00:59:00] said, you, you look at, you look over the fence, you look at the sevens where you have, where you did have proper competition and all you've done is suppress that.

And if you are, you are Kenya, you legitimately could be an Olympic gold medalist and you could be at the top of the World Sevens game. You are never ever, ever, ever, ever gonna be winning the fifteens World Cup. And, you know, and I'm, I'm happy to, and I love Kenya and I love a lot of people, but I'm happy to declare that they will never win the fifteens World Cup purely and simply because they haven't got the history in the game.

And, and the gap is too big. But have they got the sevens athletes and the rugby athletes to. To have a proper crack at winning Olympic gold and winning the world. Cheers. Absolutely they can. What do they need? They need continuity. They need consistency and they need, uh, an opportunity not to be continually yo yoed up and down because other nations don't want them to succeed and they'll, you know, you speak to the world rugby leader.

Well, it's not like that. It's like that. Well, it is like that. I, I, I've coached Kenya. I've seen it [01:00:00] from the other side. I know how you Yeah. You, you, you approach the, the developing nations and you, and you, you do the old, create the, that you are giving them opportunities. Anything. But if you were, and you had the true.

Meaning of the game, at the heart of what you were trying to do, you would ensure you would ensure that we created, uh, a vehicle for these teams to excel and, and drive forward and, and stick to what you know best, which is federation. You know, being a federation of the game, the governance of the game is tough.

Right. World rugby, you know, being governance of you don't need to answer it. Hundred percent. Well, you, you're good at that. Like when all said and done. Yeah. The governance of world rugby is good. That's what you are, that's what, that's yeah. That's your meet and drink. That's what you do. So stick to that.

Yeah. Don't try and be an events company because you, you, you, you are allowing agenda, political maneuvering to come in and all of that bullshit. And that's the biggest problem. Yeah. With, with these people. All these people get these in these positions [01:01:00] and they're more interested in their fucking freebies.

Um, yeah, I'm sorry but it's the reality. It, it's, it's true. It is true. You know, that's not what it's about. It's, it's about developing rugby countries to compete. Um, in the, in the forum that they're able to compete in and sevens is that perfect forum men's and women a hundred percent. Obviously we, we want the tier twos and tier threes to dine at the top of top table over a period of time without diluting the World Cup.

How do you think a separate tournament to be able to get them to like a nation's league where they could play against like, it it is worked in football. There was obviously the Nation's League. Anyone can go up, down, qualify a similar model to what the Sevens Yeah. Is, do you think, and rather than some of the Orman internationals that are just corporate bullshit, uh, that some of the other summer internationals, obviously the tours are brilliant, but like, why can't we make some of these a little bit more worthwhile and get clubs to play [01:02:00] like nations to play against nations that they normally wouldn't, but there's actually something to it.

Do you think, I know there's a commercial element that's gonna stop that, but Yeah, hundred percent. If, if you're taking the commercial piece out, it absolutely, you know, do the All Blacks go to the Fiji unit, Fijian Islands and play Fiji, because that, that what that, what does that do for the, for the community?

I get that, you know, sadly, you know, a, a lot of these countries have got private equity investment them as well. So, you know, ignore the commercial element. Well, that's the problem. They can't, you know, can't, the top nations can't, the likes is of South Africa, Australia, England, New Zealand. They can't, France can't, you know, so the reality is, is.

Interesting enough. I think what you just touched upon is do, do you need to have, uh, a, a separate world cup, right? You know, like in the world twenties, you have the world, you have the under twenties world cup and you have the under twenties world trophy. And if you get promoted and relegation [01:03:00] from that is, well, do you, do you have, uh, do you have that right so that the top, I don't know, make this up right.

Say it's a 16 team World cup. Yeah. Top 16 or something like that. Yeah. So to the top 12, to the top eight that make the knockouts from the one before, they automatically are in that. Then the other eight who don't make that, then the reality is you are on a, on a point system and the, the, the, they should, they should still make it, but you are giving the other group in the, the six, the 12 below the opportunity to, to, to have a crack at that and maybe the year before.

That other eight have to play in a, in, in an autumn series where it is, you know, you, it's a straight knockout or you know, you progress in the top four and it's a seeded. Yeah. Um, and you play out for your placing maybe. I think that's, that, that's credible because it allows [01:04:00] teams to develop and organize.

'cause the, the big thing is, is like, let's just say, I don't know, um, Portugal, it might be a bad example, um, Paraguay, right? Let's say, I know they're not going but, or Brazil, right? Brazil are going, they get spanked, they play the all backs, and they get spanked 120 nil. Right? What do they get outta that game?

Yeah, we get, they get, they get, they get the opposition shirt. That's what they get outta the game. Right. And they've got experience. But that's not, that's not a positive experience, that's a negative experience. When all sudden you haven't become a better rugby player, you've just taken a hiding so you ain't moving forward.

So the, the thing about stretching yourself, um, as a rugby player is you need, you need to be able to play above yourself. But if it's too far above yourself, yeah, it's a negative experience. It's, it's gotta be kind of step by step process. What they're doing here is just ridiculous. So I think, I think something like that has, has legs and potential, like [01:05:00] anything they'd have to cost it out and the money and the so forth.

But, you know, I, I, I, I think that would be sensible. That would be sensible. That's that middle ground, isn't it? Because like we are now in the Altman, uh, November internationals are upon us as well, and Spain are playing England Day and Ireland Day, and then Fiji, which based on. The 3rd of December, which is the World Cup draw means that they can't drop any lower than their ranking points.

Yeah. And they obviously, they're, they've basically secured their ranking points. So a lot of club, a lot of nations are now using November Internationals as a securing point for where they're going be in the World Cup draw rather than their match. It's, it's a, it's a nothing burger again. And like yeah, it's great to see England Day come to Spain and it's probably a big spectacle and stuff like that.

Island Day coming to town, but they're not the, the, it's a completely different side that was coming in the summer to Portugal. It's a completely different side that went to Georgia. It was basically an island squad that wasn't picked for the lines. [01:06:00] So it was a completely different teams coming to Spain.

But it, there's no world ranking points on it. Yeah. So do you know what my point on that would be though? Just listening to what you're saying is right. I, so I'm like looking at that. You are going, well, this will depend on where they're come in the draw. Like t's inner, the spirits intended. It doesn't matter where they are in the.

Right. So I would, I would sack off all ranking points. Like the reality is, is like that you only need to rank the top eight, right? 'cause that's where they're all trying to avoid one another. If you're below that, you are all in a hat and you're coming out. And that's how I'd do it because the reality is then it's irrelevant.

'cause if you are, if you are Spain, here's my point, right? I think that it's far better development for them to play in England Day or to play an island day because it would be better. They play them than, and there's no disrespect to Georgia. 'cause they probably play Georgia a lot rather than playing Georgia because they know Well we, that's, that's, that's different to give their players a different stimulus.

Easy. Yeah. Okay. Well play this like the premiership. Yeah. It's not the England [01:07:00] team, but, but you know what I talked about that, that kind of step. Approach. Yeah, that's perfect. But like, I, I think those types of, because that's great for the England, a boys who in theory could be a lot of youngsters or people just on the edge got saying approve, is that they're able to put a foot forward as well.

So I think I've got a lot of time for that. Um, and I, and I've got a lot of time because that, that benefits the mature rugby nations as well as the developing nations. And it does allow the developing nations to market and create something different, right? Because down in Spain, I take this in the spirits and if they always play Georgia, then it's like, well, okay, but if you've got England a and you've got, I dunno, um, glory coming down, right?

The, they, they've seen him on the premiership, blah. I mean, he's 19 yards, whether it comes or not, or not, but you know, or Marcus Smith has been dropped down 'cause he is not in it. I don't know. Then all of a sudden it's like, wow, okay. It's different. And I think those types of challenges are great because it has.

The ranking points is a [01:08:00] non-point, right? Let's not get caught up in that bullshit. 'cause it, it is only ever gonna be that top four anyway. So now it's about developing the game and creating opportunities and awareness and buzz in the likes of Spain and Georgia and so forth. And I, and so, you know, I think again, coming back to your point, we're making things more complicated than they need to be.

Rather than actually what Exactly Yeah. The aim and what's the aim of this, you know, so Spain have done, what were their ranking points? They, let's just say they, so the ranking points mean that they'll be protected at what number? I think they're, I think they're 14th or 15th. In the, in the, in the, and that, that means they get a certain point again.

It is made it far too. Yeah. What does that mean on, what does that mean? Play, play the games on America. What does that mean on the draw though? Right? Come the world cut. Right. So are, are they gonna avoid any of the top eight? No. So it's a non point. I've still gotta play them. See, you're still gonna get, in the spirit, you're still gonna have two games that you're under the pump.

[01:09:00] Seriously. It's just, it's either gonna be New Zealand or South Africa. I mean. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, again, I, I I, I like what they've done bringing those two because they are a perfect step, but that it was more of a, I know they won't admit it, but it, it was a case of protecting that sport. Yeah. Like that.

And then there's other nations that are having to do the same. And you think the World Cup's a well cup, like that's two years away. Like I, I prefer to potentially drop a rank in place, but play a team that's gonna actually test me to make me know where I am in, in two years time. Who run that by though, right?

Do you not think England, they will test them as well as, see if they played hundred percent will. Yeah. That's my point is, is like. I do, you know, what might be the influence on the ranking points? And again, and this is again, I know we're gonna come back to the same thing. I, I wonder whether you get more funding if your 14th, over 15th?

I don't know. Yeah. And it's like, no, but if it's, it's like, well, you are causing this problem because it's not like, well, rugby, like, just make it block. Because whether you, [01:10:00] again, I'm, I'm not being derogatory, but whether you are 16th or 20th, I would hazard a guess on any given. Sunday 20th could be 16th and 16th could be 20.

It makes no words. Right. And probably say the differential is $5, $4, three till it's $2. You're like, well just give everybody $3 and, and yeah, just average it out because the reality is, is we need you to get playing experiences to allow you to jump the next band or compete for the next band. And it's like where like.

Where's the common sense in all of this? Actually, that's the problem. We keep going back to the money, don't we? Yeah. Well, money will try. I mean, that's sadly, that's the nature of the world we live in, right? Um, and that's money makes the world go round. Believe it. I mean, that's the other problem, but hey, you can still make better rugby decisions.

Um, and you know, the, the thing about the federation, about world rugby is that they're not there to make a profit. They're there to re miss. I mean, you know, if you are a private [01:11:00] equity in, in NZR in New Zealand rugby and you are mate, do so, I, I kind of get that the agendas are different, but world rugby don't have an agenda in theory.

That's, you know, come back to my point. Don't be an events company. That's a, that's a for profit. You know, don't, don't be what you're not good at. I think on that note, Mike, I think it's probably a perfect time to win, mate. Really, we could be going for hours here, but I think we've pretty much set the, the well to right set fire to it, left the hand grenade with a pin out.

We're, uh, it's, uh, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, mate, and hopefully I'll, uh, I'll be able to catch up with you over the, the summer in the cer Yeah. Seventh circuit. I think I might be back at London City seven. So if you are, you are over there. I'm sure we can, uh, grab a beer together.

Lovely. So anyone that wants to obviously follow what you're doing, what, what's, what are you doing next? Where, where's the, where's the next plan? What's, what's, what's the next situation? I'm kind of still trying to work out, work all that out, if I'm honest with you. I, I wanna be involved in, um, in high performance.

Um, I'm doing a bit of [01:12:00] ship as well and mentoring young leaders, but I wanna be in, in rugby as, as well and, and high performance. Don't necessarily need to be the man can be the man behind the man. That's kind of my, my passion is assisting young men, young women to, to holistically develop to become the best version of themselves on the rugby.

Pitching off it. That's what I've done for the last 25, 30 years, you know, um, that I, I want to get a pint and a half out of a pint on everybody and contribute and be a part of something. So, yeah, we'll see. Um, bits and pieces going on at the moment. Um, obviously would love to, to right the wrongs of this World Seven Circuit.

So any, any, any, any rich R 360 kind funds that want to get, get the teeth in this? Absolutely. Yeah. Let's, let's, let's get it on. Yeah. Be epic. No worries. Mike. Really appreciate your time mate. For everyone that's joined, really appreciate you, uh, joining us and hopefully you enjoyed Mike and our rant about World Rugby Sevens, everything [01:13:00] that's potentially wrong and how we could hopefully fix it.

Uh, make sure you join us on our next episode. Still to be confirmed, I guess, but every, all our back issues, everything like that's already on YouTube. This will be coming out already on Instagram, everything like that. So I really appreciate everyone that's joined and hope you enjoy it and, uh, see you on the next one.