Rugby TTL - Series 2 -Episode 15 - nternational Rugby Rants & Grassroots Dynamics

Welcome to another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast! Recorded alongside our recent grassroots episode, this installment dives into international rugby dynamics. We discuss the Portuguese game, the issues with Irish player media contracts, and the state of rugby in various European nations. We also touch on the amateur nature of hurling in Ireland, the challenges facing Welsh rugby, and the potential expansion of Tier 2 nations. The conversation includes a look at the American market, the struggles of Major League Rugby (MLR), and how grassroots rugby operates differently from football at the local level. Tune in for engaging debates on the future of rugby and its global growth!

00:00 Introduction and Disclaimer
00:31 Irish Rugby and Media Restrictions
01:16 Comparing Rugby Cultures: Ireland vs. Others
03:19 The Popularity of Hurling in Ireland
09:35 Challenges in Welsh and Scottish Rugby
11:39 The Struggles of Tier Two Nations
18:06 The Future of Rugby: Global Expansion and Challenges
21:22 Grassroots Rugby and Club Struggles
23:10 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through The Leagues podcast. This one was recorded alongside our grassroots episode that come out a couple of weeks ago. This is the offcuts of our international rugby rants. Some of the bits were probably outta date 'cause as I said, couple of weeks ago, so disclaimer there, some of the facts and stuff that I was trying to say at the time probably haven't quite happened, but there are still some facts in there of the current state

of international rugby. We obviously went to the Portugal game together. That's how we, we, we sort of met and Yep. I highlighted to you afterwards, the Irish players weren't allowed to talk. They weren't allowed to talk to us unless we were pre-authorized Irish media. There was a bit of an arrogance around them, which is not what I know of Irish people and Irish culture and everything like that, and, but these players have put on.

Pedestal thinking there's something special, like [00:01:00] there's enough players out there that could probably take your spot if there was a bigger conveyor belt. Don't have to try and treat people like they're shit on your shoe, just 'cause you've got something written in the contract that you are not allowed to talk to people.

Polly: I, I think Carl, that's, that's a big thing though. You know, we're talking, you know, we, we, you are in a fortunate position that we, you know, you are, you are talking and dealing with some tier two nations and, and that's a, maybe a negative way to talk about 'em, but you know, we are talking about in Spain and Portugal and those European countries.

They want exposure. They, they're happy to speak to everyone because they need funding, they need everything else like that. But, you know, if you look at those England boys, the chances of getting a a, a, a snippet with one of the, those players would be hard enough. You know, the England lads are right. The 

Carl: England lads are right.

I've, I've met most of them as well. So most of them are right. They're easy to get hold of. It's the, it's the only ones that I've ever come across was the Irish lads. But they also had the same issue with the sevens. So when the sevens went pop and they pulled all the funding. [00:02:00] Irish lads weren't allowed to talk 'cause it was in their contract.

They were literally hand-tied because it was , it was written into their contract that they couldn't talk to anything, anyone else, or speak out against the IRFU. So the reason why the, uh, the sevens was actually pulled because apparently they couldn't raise 250 grand. Everything else was funded. And then they've gone and given 32 contracts to the women's to make sure that they could put a team into the World Cup.

At the sacrifice of the sevens, and then you've got the same mob running the lads, giving them a contract saying they can't talk to people. I'm not, I don't give a fuck about whether they're trying to. But it's just human decency. Like you can, uh, like they weren't even allowed to say hello. They were like, you barely got a response out of them.

But yeah, like, it was like they're, they're guarded. It's like they're fucking men in black or something. Like I was, I was waiting for somebody to walk over with a pen and zap me. 'cause I'd spoke to one of them. It was like, fucking hell. Can't be [00:03:00] like. You can't it it treat this game like that. This game is not like that.

Keith: It should be more open because what are you being closed off for? And specifically for the Irish side of rugby, because rugby, even though you would think we're up there constantly in the top three ranking teams. Irish rugby doesn't perform well, or say Leinster rugby doesn't perform well on the same day that a Dublin game matches is on, and it's an amateur sport.

So there's a complete divide there on what rugby should be in Ireland and where it actually is in the public eye. 

Carl: You say what you say about probably the fourth, fourth, fifth sport in Ireland. Obviously you've got the GAA, you've got hurling. Yeah. Hurlin, potentially 

Keith: football. I, I, no, not after, not after last night's result against Armenia.

Definitely not. Uh, I, I, I'd put a third, like [00:04:00] there is definitely much more, uh, community based when it comes to the, the g the Hurlin. Mm. Um, than, than the rugby side of things. But I couldn't believe it. I went to the, uh, Leinster quarter final last year, and it was played in the Aviva. It was on the same day as one of the Dublin GA matches, and they didn't even have the bottom Tier the Aviva full.

It was one of the worst attendances that I've ever seen, and it really did kind of hammer home. Where rugby is in, in respect to where it should 

Carl: be. Ireland's pretty much class every sport as amateur, don't they? Obviously hurling DA. Everything's amateur, but you can't keep putting amateur over the top of everything when you've got players that could or should or would've been international level players.

There's only four provinces that you can pick from unless they leave, which then, as Darl told me, who said that players have [00:05:00] gotta be registered or. Been part of a club or a country for a certain amount of time before they can go. So you can't even be Irish and go to France if you haven't been part of there for five years.

Or there there's a certain ruling that you can't leave, but within two years, something like that. But basically you can't even, these players can't even go and play their trade elsewhere. Yeah. Where, 

Keith: and even if Carol, even if they do go ahead and they do go and play that trade elsewhere, they're not then able to represent the international team.

And it's like, why are you getting the, the experience and bettering yourself and then not being able to, uh, tug out in the green? It, it, it's. Back a if, if you're asking me when it comes to the IRFU and look, they do it to try and keep the best players in the country. And that's why they, they offered them the contracts, the lucrative contracts to try and say, right, don't go off to the Frances, don't, we don't want, uh, your [00:06:00] image kind of going and bettering off the, the other side of the game.

We want to kind of keep it to do your c and we're trying to, uh, keep everything. To themselves and it's just, it's, it's shackling the players from their true potential. I'm talking 

Polly: to Hurling though. I watched it on BBC two the other week. I say the other week. It could have been two months ago. I think it was the the All Island final mate.

What a day. What a fucking day that is. What a 

Carl: day that 

Polly: is unbelievable. I was watching my daughter, my daughter was watching it as well with me, and she was like, I see. What on Earth is this? And she goes, is this rugby? And I went, no, it's not. And she goes, oh, it kind of looks like I said, well, it's sort of hockey.

It's sort of football. It's sort of rugby. It's a bit like 

Carl: quidditch. 

Polly: Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah. Quidditch. Go, go get it. Yeah. It's uh, it's an unbelievable day out. She said, that looks amazing. And I went, yeah. And she went, would you ever play that? And I went, Nope. I want to 

Keith: have a good 80 minute, like full pace, just [00:07:00] constant.

Like there's probably not a faster game to watch than a game of Hurling Yeah. And, uh, it's unbelievable. And the skill involved with the, uh, the hurls and uh, hitting the sliotar over from like 60, 60 yards is absolutely nuts. It, it's an unbelievable watch. And as you say, as a neutral, you watch a reverse line and you go, wow, what is this?

It's a, yeah, I, 

Carl: I was literally stood in, I stood in an Irish pub. 'cause obviously Mo is the All Island finals roughly around Paddy's Day as well. Or is it just after there's, there's the nice, 

Keith: yeah, it's, it used, I'm throwing off because it used to be in September and then they changed it after, um, COVID. So it's definitely earlier on in the year.

I think it might be. Well actually tell you. It's July must 

Polly: have been. 

Keith: Yeah, it's July. When 

Carl: and final is, so there was, there was games on, I was on Paddy's Day. There's, there's like loads of [00:08:00] games on it that weekend in there. And I, I, I, I was working in Ireland at the time and I stood in a bar and I, that was the first time I properly watched it.

And I, I thought, I honestly thought somebody put Harry Potter on. I was like, what the fuck is this? And I was asking these Irish people, they were like, oh, it's hurling. I'm like. You've not, you've not cleared it up. Like, and then, then, then I had to do, then I had to do an install, like a ga I was doing telecoms over there.

I did an install at the GAA stadium. They got their own stadiums, everything, like all the poles up. And then they showed me round all the, all the bits. And then they'd, you'd go to like random people's houses to do installs and the kids would just be locking around with these sticks, like these Hockey sticks and the, and the ball.

And I was like. I could barely fucking hit a cricket ball, let, let alone these things there, like as you say, they're just sloshing it across the fucking garden, like 60 meters. And you think, how are they doing that? Like, I haven't got the caner guy coordinators to catch a rugby ball most days, let alone try and hit a ball that small with a [00:09:00] stick at the end of it, and I've got no hope.

Um, but yeah, again, another sport that's found a way of being amateur, but the impact that it makes on the, the local area. And also when everyone gets together for that All Island final, you cannot get a ticket anywhere near Cro Park, can you? No. It is packed. No, not at all. Like the, it is what, 80, 80 to a hundred thousand roughly.

Croke Park? 

Keith: Uh, yeah. It's 

Carl: uh, around 85. I believe. They could sell that twice over and more. Easy. And you think there's, and then obviously we haven't even started touching on Wales yet, have we? 

Polly: There has gotta be a definite change in, in, in what is happening in Wales in terms of, you know, how they're, what was the retain their place.

Unreal. They were like this, it's beyond the joke. That's what they were saying. But you know, but at the same time they were like, well, something's got to happen. So it's a case of like. [00:10:00] Do you just crack on? Do you just keep flogging a horse? Do you know? Do you keep, you know, it isn't working, you know, did it work in Scotland with, you know, how they've gone to effectively two teams in Scotland, you know, um, yeah.

Look at the Scottish team now and look at, you know, ultimately I think people will say they've underperformed in the last, you know, uh, underachieved, sorry. They've performed brilliantly. But they've underachieved, they could have, you know, they, they could have, uh, taken some of the Six Nations titles, I think, if they could have got everyone fit and everyone healthy all at the right time.

I think those Scottish teams are, are, you know, they play some amazing rugby and I think the lions just proved that Finn Russell is a genius and um, as much as I hate him. In terms of terms, what he does when he puts a Scottish, Scottish shirt on. Uh, and I think I hate him because I think he's so good.

Carl: Flip, reverse that mate. If he was, if he was playing 10 for England, you'd love him. 

Polly: Yeah, but that's the whole point though, isn't it? Yeah. It's the same. You, you, you turn around and as a, as a, an avid [00:11:00] English supporter, you know, you look at and turn around and go, yeah. It's the same as, you know, going back watching Ronan Oga or, or you know, or Jo Johnny Sexton.

Johnny Sexton, you just sit there and go, well, I wouldn't mind Johnny Sexton my team, but look at him. I just, it's kind of like that and that, and that's not in a, in a bad way. I think it's just one of those things you look at and you, you know, you go, oh God. But yeah, the Scottish team's underperform. That Welsh team is, you know, I mean, they keep talking, oh, they're gonna have a playoff with Georgia.

But they are, you know, let's have a look. What hap, let's have a look what happens in what the next. It's 2025 now. 2027 World Cup. We've got two years to go to it and sort of see what happens. 

Carl: Never happening. Never happening. Like I'm fully on board with trying to push tier two nations forwards. Uh, but Georgia are never gonna get the shot.

They didn't, they had their opportunity against Ireland. They also had another opportunity at, they're just. They're not there Wales. Uh, and obviously everyone's protective of obviously the six nations they bought into it, bought shares, whatever. [00:12:00] The best format that we need to create is an opportunity for all of those clubs, uh, and nations to be able to play in like a a Nation's League tournament style.

Do away with these autumn internationals. Do away with the shit ones. Actually make 'em count. It's great to see some of these games, Spain playing England a potentially in Via the lid. Phenomenal. Great. But are they gonna get the same result as basically what Ireland a did to Georgia and to Portugal?

Probably not so much. That wasn't a full strength virus side that went to Georgia or to Portugal, and they still did a demolition number on both of. 

Polly: I, I think that there is a massive gap though, isn't there, you know, you're talking about, but we've got, we've got 

Carl: a, how, how would you close that gap? 'cause is there a massive stat, like is that done at, is that done at club level?

Because Georgia want to become the Black Lion, obviously, is basically the Georgia National side. They've pulled out of the Europa Super Cup, [00:13:00] which starts in a couple of weeks time because they want to go and play in a higher league. There's rumors that Georgia are gonna go and play in Australia just to get games on.

They've created a, a three game tour at the minute where they go to Zebra Benton, and I think they play Zebra again, just so they can try and get more competitive games ahead of the Challenge Cup, which they'll probably go out in the first round. 

Polly: Yeah. But I think that that's, you know, that that's a way that they have to do it, isn't it, is, is, you know, the, the way.

International teams are getting better is by having better club players. And those club players have got exposure, you know? And, and how do those club players get exposure? Is they, they play for clubs, whether it's their club at home in Georgia or, you know, they get an opportunity to perform on the, the top stage.

And then some of the, the, the, the larger clubs can bring 'em in, sign 'em, and, and, and get 'em playing, you know, and, uh, there's a lot of Georgians playing in France, isn't there? Pro D2 and the, the Pro D2 or whatever it is. Yeah. And, and which is really good [00:14:00] standard 

Carl: and the top four as well. So they've got the like, but the thing is France is leading the way with it.

They've got four pro divisions out there. So Mario Pichardie we had on the other, uh, as a, as he's a Spain captain, he's now gone to go and play in the French Diviv three. Right. Which is their national one or whatever. Right there. He's going there as a pro. He's basically as a pro and they've gone and signed 18 new players at his club with the target to get promoted to Pro D2.

You've got players that are playing D2 from Portugal, you've got players elsewhere all playing in France, right? We've got Freddy Burns has just gone over to play in, um, in Romania alongside Adam McBurney we had on the, on the pod. He's gone and played for the same, same team. So Freddie Burns has gone over there to play in Romania.

There's enough leagues out there, but how's that going to improve the players for [00:15:00] these tier two nations quick enough without them playing better quality play Like you know, Paula as a coach, if you play with better, you get better. Correct. 

Polly: Yeah, agreed. 

Carl: Yeah. If like, obviously Ireland through sort of a token gesture at Georgia and Portugal, Georgia took.

Took it with both hands, didn't get the result they were targeting. Portugal used it as a stepping stone for cash flow rather than using it a and even their, they come out the other, like even the coach come out, Simon Maddox in the in the bit afterwards and said, did we just kid ourself for the last 12 months thinking Ireland were coming to town?

Were we ever ready? Probably not. And that's the coach, right? They then got. President of the fucking rugby at in Portugal turned around and said, oh yeah, we were, we were never really gonna take it seriously. It was just a cash flow. It was a ca, it was cash cow. He said, we also basically didn't really try for the, um, [00:16:00] uh, in the semifinal, the, uh, of the.

Rugby Europe championships 'cause it was gonna cost us too much to send everyone to Georgia for the final. And he wrote that, that he put that in a fucking statement. And that's the bloke that's running the national rugby. Like we want them to move forward. But also you've got clowns running the shit show that can't make a decision out of it.

Like there's either money's gotta come in or we've gotta find a way of them being able to play bigger games. Don't impact on, I don't, rugby can't keep being run by the. Top 10 teams for us to see the game that we love grow. It's not gonna get any better if you've only got 10 teams that are only there.

And then the barbarians that will mash a load of players together that are about to retire. 

Keith: What you're saying about, uh, Portuguese rugby there, Carl? A hundred percent. 'cause we all thought that it wasn't going to be the score that it was that day. We taught that off the couple. Results that Portugal has had over the last year [00:17:00] that they would show up and put it to us and they, they just feathered away.

Like they, they got their one try and the crowd went absolutely ballistic. Home fans s delight with that momentum to take home and say that they got a try for Ireland. But there should has to be a mentality shift there of it's like, oh no, we don't just wanna celebrate one try. We want to actually try and compete.

And that, as you say, they need to change that mentality from being just, and you can understand that they want to get the cash flow and they want to get the, you know, make it. A profitable organization and fair Jews that is part of business, but on the grand scale of the global game, they need to put their best foot forward and probably be a bit more professional about it.

Carl: I was listening to Talk Sport earlier and you had Simon Jordan ran in on about, um. FIFA are basically saying FIFA have got all of these different, uh, they're not [00:18:00] non-for-profit basically. So obviously Rugby's not run that way. So the RF u's not, it's not down as a non-for-profit is it? So it's a case of, it's still classed as a business.

FIFA are classed as a non-for-profit business model. Right. They've got 3.9 billion sat in cash. What the fuck does a not-for-profit need? 3.9 billions birth of cash. That's supposed to be trying to funnel that into making the game bigger and stronger for everyone to develop. And then we've got the RFU at the other end or world rugby.

That can't rub two shillings together and losing their way with tournaments that are making money and just letting it become a commercial cash cow because it's a 

Polly: completely different, it's a different business model that every nation owns their own rugby. That's the, that's the problem is that, you know, when you look at it is.

And it it a different business model and it's, how it's put together is completely, you know, different. And, you know, we could sit here and argue, [00:19:00] discuss about the finer points of.

Where, where does a, where money ultimately is gonna make this the, the game bigger. Yeah. And where is the only place that we're gonna draw money from? All of the nations that, you know, New Zealand already tapped out, South Africa, tapped out Australia Rugby Union has only just come back into the forefront because of the lions, you know.

Um, but rugby union in Australia is the fourth or fifth biggest sport. Um, you know, rugby union in England isn't even like the third. Biggest sport or whatever it is. And you know, apart from the French who are absolutely piling money into it, all of those nations are struggling. So, you know, we've gotta get a bigger audience.

And there's only one real massive audience that is completely left Untact, and that's the American market. And, and, and you see, that's why the, the World Cup's going over there and we'll see maybe an increase in that. And, you know, we're talking about the, the, the MLR is is getting bigger. Japanese [00:20:00] market is getting bigger, you know, m.

Carl: Yeah. Will, well, MLR is dead . You've got these, everyone banging on that. America's gonna save rugby. It can't fucking save itself, let alone save rugby. It can't, it got, you've, you've lost 10 clubs since the, or the inauguration of MLR 10 clubs have gone bust since they've started through different bits, but like th they've lost three clubs alone this summer.

That's what 40, 40, 50 players eat on each roster. That's 150 players that have now gotta go and find professional rugby elsewhere, which we haven't got. There's not enough clubs in England because the RFU won't allow more than their own secret fucking squirrel club of clubs that they want to keep in the prem.

They've sort of opened the door slightly of the championship, but it's not financially viable. You've got four pro leagues in um. Obviously in France you've got the URC, which is again [00:21:00] colonized by the provinces. Obviously you've got Irish players that can't, they're not really gonna go out and sign a load of random Americans because they don't need them.

The only one that's been a recent success at the minute is South American Rugby. They're on about adding another club this summer, so there'll be four Argentinian clubs and they're developing players that are now coming to play in the prem. 

Polly: And this is why I love grassroots rugby. Because there's no, I mean, don't get me wrong, Gas's Rugby, how much politics is involved at the rugby club every Saturday?

Unreal. Um, uh, you know, and if you ever get the opportunity to sort of be involved in that, you'll see, uh, and I don't mean that in a negative way, but there's, you know, those rugby, rugby clubs are struggling to stay open. It's really expensive to run a rugby club. We talk about rugby clubs, grassroots, and you know, you compare that to a football, grassroots football club and it's like.

Grassroots. Football clubs don't have a clubhouse. They don't have, they only have to pay a pitch fee on a Sunday, you know what, [00:22:00] 60 pounds for the, for both teams to fork out to play a game on. You know, it costs me, it costs us at gospel. 'cause it's a council pitch. I think it's 90 pound a game. You and most, most pay the counts.

90 pound a game to play. On the pitch. Most football, most 

Carl: football teams are also sponsored by the local pub, which is where they go back to for the clubhouse. 

Polly: Yeah. You know, so they, but, and they haven't got gas and electricity costs, they haven't got Bar house clubhouse costs. They haven't got all the other stuff that's going on, you know, because it's a different approach and a different style to it.

But, you know, we talk about our level seven rugby, which is, you know, a reasonable standard. That's where there's clubs paying people money at that standard level six. It's like, well, you touching on sort of that's, you know, how are you affording a hundred pound a game to a player or the whole team? And that's through sponsorship, but that's clever.

It's just how you can beat market and you know, local clubs have gotta get better at marketing [00:23:00] themselves as well, which is why this is really good. So if you are doing what just, and you fancy some of us going to your club. Just drop us a message and we'll see what we can do. 

Carl: Well, that brings another episode of Rugby Through the League's podcast to an end this week, obviously we went off on a tangent about international rugby and, uh, the goods and the bad parts of it.

Hope you enjoyed that. Took away the facts that were spouted and some of the bits that we could hopefully take away. And improve the accessibility of nations. So great arguments from Polly Am from, uh, from Keith as well in the midst of my ranting. Keep tuning in, keep sharing the love, enjoying the new content that we've got, and thanks for being part of it.

Thank you and goodbye.