Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 12 - Tomás Appleton

Exclusive Interview with Portugal's Rugby Captain Tomás Appleton | Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast

In this episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast, we chat with Tomás Appleton, the captain of Portugal's national rugby team. Thomas shares insights into his rugby career, from his beginnings at CDUL to his professional stint in England. We delve into his experience at the 2023 Rugby World Cup and the state of rugby development in Portugal. Thomas discusses the challenges and opportunities in Portuguese rugby, including the need for better infrastructure and the importance of grassroots initiatives. He also reflects on his unique personal journey balancing rugby, a dental career, and a degree in medicine. This episode is a must-watch for rugby fans and those interested in the growth of the sport in emerging nations.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:33 Tomás Appleton's Rugby Journey
02:38 Playing for Darlington and Differences in Rugby Leagues
06:50 Balancing Rugby and a Medical Career
10:50 Challenges and Development in Portuguese Rugby
21:41 Exposure and Future of Portuguese Rugby
23:31 Challenges in Rugby Development
24:05 The Importance of Professionalism in Rugby
26:56 Portuguese Rugby's Unique Style
28:27 The Role of Sevens in Rugby Development
32:12 Facing Ireland: A Major Opportunity
37:38 Reflecting on the 2023 World Cup
43:10 Rebuilding and Future Goals
50:08 Emerging Talent in Portuguese Rugby

Transcript

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby through the Leagues podcast. Hope you enjoyed the other day when we had Mario Pichardie on the Spain captain, but now we've gone across to the Iberian, the Iberian Derby side, and we've uh, we've brought Thomas Appleton on. Thomas. Really appreciate your time, mate.

And, uh. We obviously caught up briefly after the Iberian Derby. Hopefully this is in a bit of a better situation than, uh, the, the raw, the raw conversation that we had afterwards. 

Tomás Appleton: No, thanks a lot man. Thanks a lot for the, for the invitation and um, I'm glad to be here. 

Carl: Perfect. So for those that don't know, you are currently Portugal, captain, you play over in the top 12 as well.

Can you give us a little bit of a roundup of your. You're a rugby escapade? So far 

Tomás Appleton: I've been, I've been captain for, for the national team since 2019. I also play in the, in the Portuguese top 12. There is the currently, um, top tier Portuguese, uh, division. Yeah. Uh, I play for CDUL. It's [00:01:00] my, it's my first club.

It's my academy club is where I was born and raised. Nice. In CDUL.. So, yeah. That's, that's the, that's the thing at the moment. 

Carl: Awesome. Because you also sort of pull the, she on a take occasionally for Lusitanos as well in the Super Cup, or not as often. Yeah, exactly. 

Tomás Appleton: So, so what happens is we, uh, the union has the Lusitanos who is a franchise.

Yeah. Uh, and we, the idea is for the union to get the, the best players of the national championship. And as like, uh, like kind of a preparation, I would say, uh, for the national team, uh, as well is like, uh. I don't wanna call it satellite club, but it's, it's like, it's, uh, it's a, it has a connection, definitely.

Yeah. It's, 

Carl: uh, when I was speaking to Mario the other day as well, it's, it sort of utilizes a bit of a development for the sort of the first team as well with the experience pros and upcoming pros. Is that similar to how the, the Lusitanos is used or [00:02:00] 

Tomás Appleton: more, more or less So the, the big thing is as the, as the Portuguese championship, championship is amateur.

Mm-hmm. Uh, what we want to do with Lusitanos is to expose the, the players who are based in Portugal. Yeah. To ideally a higher level of of rugby. Yeah, of course. When you have the Lusitanos and you join in, the players coming from France, from the professional, uh, championships, that's what you call the, the national team.

But of course he's a development team. But a way to get even the more experienced players. Uh, based in Portugal to a higher level of rugby. That's, that's the purpose of that. 

Carl: So obviously you've, as you've mentioned, you've been with your club pretty much all of your career. I did have a look and saw that you doled, doled over to England for a little bit and played for Darlington.

How did, uh, how did the weather compare from, uh, from, from port? Yeah. It was, 

Tomás Appleton: yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a tough question. So the weather is no, was not, not great, honestly. Uh, it right next to the Newcastle up north. And, uh, the [00:03:00] weather was not great. I, I was not used at all to get, uh, dark at three o'clock in the afternoon.

So that's a, that was a new thing for me. Yeah, no, but it was a, it was a great rugby, uh, experience. I was 23 back then and Wow. It was a good chance to, to get away. Then a lot of things going on. I wanted to, to play for the national team a lot as well. I wanted to play for the sevens, uh, yeah. Was Portugal as well.

I, I had university, uh, pending and then I just decided to come back, but it, it, it was really worth it to be in England. 

Carl: How did you think that developed your career as well? Going across, into to the English leagues as well? 'cause it's not quite. Pro, but it's sort of semi-pro sort of, yeah. Level because of the players and stuff.

Back, 

Tomás Appleton: back then, Darlington and I think they're still, nowadays, they're fully pro, but they're the only, they are the only, not the only, but like there are two or three teams that are fully pro, uh, on that competition. And of course it [00:04:00] was the, the national team was way different back then. And that was my like first professional contact with, with rugby and it was a massive change for us.

But. Then as we came back, of course English League is a bit different from, from Portuguese. There it is a lot of like, it's a, it's a, it has a really like fast tempo, but still they rely a lot on size and strength. And Portuguese Championship is way different. We have a lot of talent in the, in the Portuguese championship and we just rely on speed and, and skill and everything.

So that's, that's, and I think you can see that in the national team. Yeah, I think it's the, it's the same. Um, and of course he was playing with some big lads. Was he was k kind of a, a like a shock. Yeah. But then, but then as we, as I moved back to Portugal, everything started to get more professional in 2019 as Patris Que was coming to the national team.

The, like, the professionalism of the national [00:05:00] team was, was like a, a pro club. So that's, that was like. The thing. 

Carl: So obviously as you mentioned though, the top 12 is an amateur league in Portugal as well. So have you got players that are centrally contracted to the national side as well to support that?

Or is there clubs that also are able to pay teams, or how does that, how does that work out? 

Tomás Appleton: So every team, like I would say top 12. So the every year it kind of changes a bit the way we play the national championship. For example, this year we did the top 12, but then at just around Christmas, Christmas we there, there was a split, uh, between top six and bottom six.

And so sometimes it's a bit hard to. To generalize, um, how the, the way the clubs work. Mm-hmm. But I would say the top six, the top six teams, they would have, uh, something like, uh, 40 man squad. They would have 7, 8, 9, 10. Some of them who are fully professional, but Okay. [00:06:00] They're, yeah, they're all players coming from abroad, so Oh, okay.

Foreign, foreign, uh, players that the clubs get based on their necessities like most. Common necessity in Portugal is front row. So like I would say like 50% of the, of the professional players in, in the top six are, are front row from front row. Uh, yeah. But then what we have is when we're presenting the Lucitana, we get a, we get a compensation from the union for what we are losing at work.

Okay. Uh, it, it ideally works like that and it works more or less the same. It works more or less the same international team, but it's not, it doesn't work that well. Yeah. Uh, so it's, it's like a tough path. 

Carl: Because, um, you are, you are a dentist as well. Yeah. Is that correct? 

Tomás Appleton: Yeah, I'm a 

Carl: dentist. I noticed how, how good your teeth were.

So it was, uh, thank you. Probably a [00:07:00] fundamental of that job role. 

Tomás Appleton: No, actually I'm a, I'm a dentist and I'm a, I'm a doctor as well, so I did both. Oh, wow. I just finished medicine. My medicine degree I did. So I did my medic dental medicine, my dentistry degree. Yeah. Uh, when I was younger. I finished in 2018 and then I had like a midlife crisis and I decided to go for medicine and I just finished.

Carl: Amazing. So that must have been quite hard to do along. So this is probably a bit that people don't always discuss. Obviously rugby only lasts so long as well. And you've also got another career alongside, obviously you went into, went over to England with a pro contract where you kind of thought. Could I make it full-time as a pro or did you realize that there was potentially, that path wasn't as long and that's why you wanted to stay with dentistry and become a doctor and stuff?

How did that 

Tomás Appleton: think? I think it, I think it was a bit, a bit of both. So I would never, I. Imagine myself, like living my whole life around rugby. I, I'm, I think this is, of course, this is a personal, that a lot of players who are able, and [00:08:00] even in Portugal, players who move to France and move to England, who they see, they see their whole life around rugby.

Yeah. I don't see myself, because since I was a kid, I have a dream of becoming a doctor. Honestly, if you ask me now, I would, I would like to. To have, to have, have, uh, a much a more solid career, uh, in rugby, in professional rugby. Yeah. Then things happen. I have, um, I started to have a pretty stable life, uh, here in Portugal.

I was enjoying rugby. Uh, I was really, really enjoying rugby in the last, I would say 10 years. So I, when I played in England, it was 2015 and 6 15, 16. Yeah, so it's been 10 years since I'm back in, in Portugal. I've been enjoying my rugby and. Life has been pretty good. So, yeah, I'm honestly, I'm not, of course, after the World Cup, a few things got, um, onto the table, but yeah, you would, it would have to be a pretty, pretty solid offer.[00:09:00] 

Mm. Uh, to get me moving and get me, getting me just focusing on, on rugby, get my, my wife, my kids, um, yeah. In abroad. So yeah, there was, uh, there was the, the chance was there. I, I was, so when I signed that contract, I was. Like, I was sure that I would regret I would have the biggest regrets and that if I didn't take that shot.

So yeah, I did it. Um, and I'm pretty, pretty, pretty happy with it. 

Carl: Nice. That's, that's, that's amazing to hear because it lot, a lot of players will probably be wondering what if, and you've also been able to do both sides of it. So you've had your, had your opportunity. You found your life, you found another career afterwards as well, but by the sounds of it, you had your hands full mate.

So you are full-time dentist, rugby player, husband, parent, and then decided to do a degree on top. Yeah, that was. Did you, you must have just not slept for however many years. Like how does that work? 

Tomás Appleton: So, yeah, the last few years have been tough, honestly. No, no. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be honest. So, yeah, I cannot tell.

I cannot tell. It was easy, especially when I [00:10:00] started. So I'd rather be like pretty stable and happy life. And when I decided, so I decided to take medicine. Yeah. And my, my daughter, my first daughter, my, my daughter, I have a daughter and a son. Yeah. And my daughter was born the year I started medicine. Wow, that was, that, that was tough to manage.

But like as in rugby, I, I just, I got my, I got my pride, uh, yeah. My, I was so like, man, I have to finish this degree. I'll do it, I'll do it. I'll do it. Yeah. And then I just did it. I was not the best of students, but yeah, I managed to do it. 

Carl: Yeah. That's amazing. That's a really impressive, so do you, do your kids also play rugby?

Are they, they, are they both involved or 

Tomás Appleton: No, no, no, no, no. My, my daughter is four years old now. Yeah. And my kid is three months, so. Oh, okay. Not quite yet then. Yeah. Not quite yet. Yeah. 

Carl: That's amazing. So obviously your, your club, uh. I pronounce it as C-D-U-L, but it's obviously, it's, it's not, it's, it's 

Tomás Appleton: it's CDUL Yeah.

But 

Carl: [00:11:00] CDUL, CDUL, Kor. So what is their sort of rivals? Because obviously I, I've looked into the top 12 a little bit and seen, uh, enough and seen how exciting it is as, as a league, but there's obviously gonna be pockets of rivalry. Obviously. You've got Ben Fiker is, is Lisbon, and you've got ca is it Cascai as well?

Is it? Yeah. 

Tomás Appleton: K. So it has been changing a lot, I would say like the, the biggest. The rivals are a club called de, right when I started, started to play senior rugby. Yeah. Like the, the two teams who reached the finals every single year was CDUL and Direito So that's why I think the, the rival is, the rivalry is like really, really big.

But yeah. Tier, uh, last, the last few Yearsly has did, did an amazing job. They've been champions for. I would say like five times in the last seven or eight years Yeah. Is really developing as well. They didn't manage to, uh, to win the league yet, uh, but their last five to six years were really, really good [00:12:00] as they were standing in the second division a few years, like 10 years ago.

Uh, so I say they have a really solid, uh, project. Of course, Benfica associated with, um, associated with a, with a football club. Yeah. Uh, they have a lot of resources that most clubs don't have. Hmm. And they're building their project. They're having a, like a, a bit of growth pain, but I think they'll, they'll get there.

And it's really important for, uh, for Portuguese rugby to, uh, to develop. A lot of teams. Of course. I think we have a massive problem in rugby, uh, in Portugal, is that most of the top teams, they are in Lisbon. Yeah. And it's really hard to get people from, from the interior of Portugal for even smaller cities to start to play rugby.

'cause they don't have the club, they don't have a club, they don't have access to rugby. And that's, I think that's a, a big struggle. Just getting to another point. So in Portugal, we don't have that many, um, registered, I'm not say, I'm not [00:13:00] sure how you say it in English, but a lot of registered athletes playing rugby.

We have something like 5,000 or 8,000 athletes. It's, it's okay, but it's not, it's not that many. But after the, like the, the hype we have after the World Cup. Yeah. And once we have the base of the pyramids really, really wide and, and get a lot of kids involved and start to play rugby and. Everything.

Everything. So, but if you can compare to teams like Spain, if you can compare to mm-hmm. UK, of course, is the whole different level, but even Germany, uh, the Netherlands and wherever, they have a lot of more, uh, a lot more players than us. So yeah, of course we, if we can manage that and widen up the base of the pyramid, that would be amazing for us.

Carl: Yeah, because, um, so is there many like. Grassroots clubs under the top 12. Is there random clubs that are outside of that, or is it, is everything sort of filtered into the big clubs in the, in the region and the areas and stuff? 

Tomás Appleton: There, there, there, of course, there, there are a few, [00:14:00] I'm not sure about the numbers, but I saw there are some something like 50 clubs, 50 rugby around Portugal.

Right.

In the bigger, like, bigger Lisbon, uh, area. Yeah, I would say you have some something like 30 30, 30 to 35. Right. And then you have like one alone club in, and then you have two clubs up north in Porto. And we're talking about many, many, many people. Uh mm-hmm. Many thousand, millions of people. Yeah. In those places that they don't have access to rugby.

And of course when you, when it gets to. To, uh, these clubs, they, they like the academies. For example, from my club, we have a lot of kids. For example, if you go to under eight and under tens, you have 80, a hundred kids training. So that's, those are good numbers. But if you go to a, to a local club in, uh, in a small, I would not say village, but even in a small city, like [00:15:00] yeah, 30 kilometers away, uh, from Portugal, you'll have five kids training.

And that's, and that's the struggle 

Carl: on Then I'm gonna put you on the spot. What's, what do you think is the fix? How did you change that in Portugal? 

Tomás Appleton: So, first of all, I think we have to get into schools. Into schools. So, um, sports 

Carl: school. Is it not done at at normal schools? Is it only done at sports schools or is it 

Tomás Appleton: There are not many schools who have rugby into it.

Of course. Like for example, my club, we have like a protocol with one school, but like, it's not a thing that is taken seriously, like through all through all schools and everything. Rugby doesn't take part, uh, of like physical education. Uh, wow. Plans. So I think first of all, the union has a major rule, uh, on getting schools involved.

Do a work not just here in Lisbon, but go to smaller cities, go to the interior of Portugal, uh, try to get, uh, the word of rugby [00:16:00] spread. And as you know, and. As you know, the, the values of rugby, they, they're not just around the, the sports itself is how you, you deal with discipline, how you deal with respect to the other, with respect to the referee, with respect to your teammates.

We, the respect to the opponent, and these are the kind of values that I, I think that Portugal as itself should be, should give to, to kids should give to the, to the population. And that's how good of a rugby, uh, how good of a vehicle, uh, rugby can be. And I think that will be the first, like the first act and then of course is give access to, to everyone.

The as I would say that, and this is not even just in rugby and a lot of things, we have a lot of people just living in the coast of Portugal and we don't that have access, access in the interior, for example. This is a, this is a, a funny story, but. [00:17:00] So we went to play with the Lucitanas to Spain. We went to play in Burgos .

I reckon it was Burgos So last time. 

Carl: Yeah, that that 

Tomás Appleton: way. So the last time we played, um. Against the Spanish, France franchise and me, me and three other, um, players we went to, drove there, uh, because we have to work, we have meetings, we have, I had appointments. And when we were, uh, going there, we stopped by, um, a gas station and the guy was working in the, in the gas station.

It was, this was something like next to the border, uh, with Spain. And the guy in the gas station was like, I know you guys, you guys are from the national team of Portugal. And he said, yeah. I said, man, I've been trying to play rugby. I've been trying to get into rugby for so long, and I have no idea how can I do it?

I've sent emails to wherever, uh, clubs and union and everything, and I cannot get, uh, anywhere to play rugby in here. And this shows [00:18:00] exactly, uh, what I meaning. Yeah. Uh, we needed access to rugby, to, to everyone. Of course it's a really hard job for the, for the union to do, but we have to start somewhere. And of course, this will have to be as important as the develop development of the, the top tier, uh, teams in Portugal as we need to develop the lu tan as I think a professional team and as we need to develop the, the, the national team because.

Trigger to, to get people involved in rugby. It's the good results of the top of the pyramid. Yeah. And after you have, you have no idea about the hype that we have. Uh, we have after the World Cup in 2023. Yeah, we were everywhere. And we need to, we need to make that, uh, so we, get, I dunno what's the, the call in English, but we had to.

To pick up the fruit, uh, to pick up the, [00:19:00] the results from that. 

Carl: It's sort of, yeah, la, low hanging fruit of easy opportunities and stuff. Yeah, because it was the same in England though. So England have, obviously they won, won the World Cup in 2003 and there was this massive boom and acceleration of everyone wanting to play rugby.

Um, that's also dwindled because there's not the appetite, as you said, so a lot of people say. We've got to support grassroots, but you've also gotta grow the top to success for people to then want to reach the success. Yeah, 

Tomás Appleton: exactly. It's a, it's a, of course, this is a, it's a fine line between that balance.

Yeah. Um, and develop like the top of the pyramid. That base of the pyramid. Yeah. It's if you have a, I think if you have a really, really strong base. The, the rest will come, uh, for themselves. If you have really good clubs in the base, if you have really good academies. If you have really good development, a lot of players playing rugby, yeah.

Then they'll get into senior rugby. They will start to play better if they see a potential and if they [00:20:00] see a, a professional opportunity, uh, they will go for it. And then you'll develop the pyramid by itself. Because, for example, we have a massive bottleneck here in Portugal. Is that when you go. From under eighteens under twenties to senior rugby.

Yeah. You have that massive challenge that you have to go for university. And for example, you don't have, you pretty much don't have rugby in universities. Right. And so most players have to make a decision, should I go for a hundred percent, uh, yeah. A hundred percent focus on university or while I go for a hundred percent focus, um, on broad, because they think they cannot do both at the same time.

Yeah. Honestly, I'm not a big example 'cause I think I did pretty well, uh, on these. But then when it comes to the working, like the on job, like job markets? Yeah. Yeah. They have to take another decision. For example, we had a player after the World Cup, we decided like, I'm stopped. I'm, [00:21:00] I'm done with rugby, I'm gonna focus on my career.

I'll get off, I am done with university. I did the, the World Cup three and I'm done. Professional for company. I'm working for a company. Wow. And he was 22. So imagine if you lose Portugal. Geez. Lose, uh, lost one of their big, one of their biggest, uh, his biggest talents. Yeah. Uh, because he didn't see a, like a future, future in rugby.

And then of course, when you, when you start to build a family, when you have kids, when you have other responsibilities. You cannot, like, throw everything away because of rugby. You have to make decisions. 

Carl: Yeah. A family's not cheap either, are they? And, uh, if, yeah, rugby can't, if rugby don't pay the bills, it's, it's hard.

Yeah. Do you think, do you think there's enough exposure of the top 12 within Portugal and outside of it? Obviously I've been able to see it because. I'm within rugby, within rugby Europe and stuff like that. And obviously understand it, but I know there's a lot, there is stuff going on behind the scenes that's trying to [00:22:00] give that opportunity to more, but do you think that other countries are a, a, a wider audience would also help develop?

I think the same issues in Spain. It's, it's in every, but exposure of of your top league is critical to help you progress as a, as a country. And within the development underneath 

Tomás Appleton: it is, it is, of course. I think so, I think this, this will get like into a, like, into, into a spiral because yeah. If we don't have exposure, you don't have, uh, sponsorship for the clubs.

If you have, don't have sponsorship for the clubs, you don't have enough money to pay facilities. You don't have to pay for, pay enough money to pay for resources. You don't have enough money to pay for coach, for good coaches for players. So this is all becomes a spiral. So yeah, if we can get out of that like spiral, having the exposure, exposure that we need.

Yeah, amazing. Of course. I think for example, we need to, to have our games from the from top tier [00:23:00] broadcast preferences. That's the broadcast. 

Carl: Yeah. Broadcast. Yeah, broadcast. 

Tomás Appleton: Uh, we need to get more companies involved, not in the clubs itself, but in the league. Honestly, at this moment, this might be a controversial opinion, but I would say 

Carl: perfect.

Love it. Go for it. 

Tomás Appleton: Yeah. No, but I would say that the, the union should not take care of the, the national, the, the national championship, I would say, I would say to go private. Okay. So the union for, in my opinion, they have to be responsible for the national teams. Yeah. And development. You've, you've seen it all over, uh, different sports.

For example, in football, the, the first, the, the top like three divisions, they not belong. They're the top three divisions of football. They're not, they don't belong to the. The union, yeah. Should do the same with rugby, but because. They lack resources. They like, they lack stuff and something, sometimes things [00:24:00] they just don't go wrong and the clubs don't, don't always agree with the union.

Yeah. If we have a private thing, we can, we can have private sponsorships every ev, everyone will be on board. It might be a bit harder for smaller clubs to develop and then reach this kind of professional professionalism that I imagine. I would say that we'll have a lot of benefit, uh, benefits from it.

Carl: That's the thing. And then it's one less thing that the, the union would have to focus on, as you say. 'cause Yeah, exactly. A, a union can't do everything. Um. Obviously even with, well, you look at the top 14, it's not really, it's not part of the French Union. It kind of does whatever it wants and if it wants to let players go to go and play international, it picks and chooses it.

The, the main, the main interest is the top 14. So there must be that as you, as you said, there's got, we've gotta find a middle ground for the leagues and teams and stuff that develop and find outsource. Finances because it can't keep coming through [00:25:00] one funnel and not distribute properly. So it could be a really interesting way.

Do you think that's likely, though? 

Tomás Appleton: I know there are some plans going on, uh, for that, but there, there, I think, I know, I know there has been some talks, uh Oh wow. About it and, but honestly I'm not sure when it's going to happen. Not sure if it's going to happen. Uh, before the World Cup 2027. I think it should.

I think I have a lot of, I have a lot of opinions about how, uh, rugby should develop. I've been here quite a few years. Yeah. I've been playing for the national team. Um, I've been playing senior rugby for more than 10 years, more than 15 years. I've been playing in the national team for more than 10 years.

I have a few opinions on how things, uh, should go, but one, one other thing that I really, uh, think it should be, it should happen is the pro, like lucita should go pro, have to go pro. There's no other way to do it. And you've seen the results. Uh, you've seen the results [00:26:00] with, um, Jaguars when they were playing, uh, super rugby in Argent or, so you've seen the, the results with Japan when they're having sun, wolves.

Um, yeah, black 

Carl: lines, 

Tomás Appleton: black lines for Georgia. You've seen it all over, even Fiji, and have an amazing. Development for the, for their countries. And even I think Moana, Pacifica in a few years will shoot. So I think Portugal should go, uh, with that. We cannot have, keep having, keep sending a few players to France, but then we have so much talent in players based in Portugal that don't wanna live Portugal.

You cannot waste that talent. Nah. 'cause in a universe where you have. 5,000 or 6,000 players playing rugby. We have such raw talent and you've seen the players that we send, uh, we're sending to France and phenomenal the way we, the way we play it in the, in the World Cup. We cannot waste that talent. 

Carl: No, because, um, I, I, I spoke to Simon, [00:27:00] uh, the, the head coach after the Iberian Derby and I think I pissed him off a little bit 'cause I saw, I said that you played with.

You, you play your best rugby when it's chaotic. But I meant that in a good way because it is. It's organized chaos. You, you want to try and pass the ball quickly, get the ball around, make the team, the other team make mistakes to give you an opportunity. Is that something that's always been part of Portuguese rugby?

Just play what's in front of you and just see if it sticks. If it doesn't, then 

Tomás Appleton: yeah.

Always be in the Portuguese DNA to play, uh, in that kind of a good chaotic system? Yes, because we see opportunities these through the hands, through fast rugby to a fast temple rugby, and I think we will never rely on, um. On like slow and strong set piece. Mm. Uh, when I'm saying strong is like [00:28:00] pure strength and yeah.

We're, we're not going, going for the penalty and try to win the scrum to go Yeah. Uh, to go and win games through that. Of course, we, we want to have stable set piece, uh, to play our rugby, but we want to play fast, tempo, edge to edge, uh, and explore opportunities on that chaotic, uh, system. Definitely. And I think.

Every coach will be insane if they, if they don't get, uh, that kind of system into Portuguese rugby. 

Carl: Obviously the, the chaotic style of, of rugby within Portugal also plays into a really good position of the, the sevens as well, because you guys. Really enjoy your sevens rugby 'cause it's, it's fast, it's quick, it's perfect opportunity.

Obviously you played at the, at the sevens as well. Do a lot of clubs use it as a, as a sort of a development point for players? Do they sort of say, go and play some sevens and come back and find that opportunity? Or is it just. A good way of just enjoying rugby. 

Tomás Appleton: I think honestly it changed a lot, even I, I would say worldwide [00:29:00] since this, yeah, I think so.

I was, I played sevens quite a lot, but especially in my young years in the national team and even I, when I was doing 15 and, uh, 15 aside and sevens aside, it was a while ago, and I think as the, the sevens got into the, the Olympic, um, as an Olympic, uh, sports. Yeah, think it changed a lot. The, you had the big shift on the way, like most unions face, uh, the sports.

So Portugal had their opportunities in the world circuit. We played many, many tournaments, uh, in the world circuit. We were resident for a few years. I was lucky enough to, to play, uh, in a few of them. Um, but still it changed a lot. And nowadays I think I. We have to see it as, we used to see it a lot as a development way to get PE players into [00:30:00] the, into the 15 uh, sites.

Yeah. Even other unions used to do it. Um, New Zealand did it a lot. A lot of players, uh, went through the, through the sevens before they, they reach old Blacks. But nowadays I think it's kind of different. I think the. I think the, the, the sports is a bit different. It since it got, uh, in a, as an Olympian sports and yeah, honestly, I'm not sure how Portugal should face the, the sevens.

 We are struggling in the last few years to get again into the world circuit. So I think we would have to in, instead of focusing on that team, developing players, um, to get to the side, I think we should. Probably get into a better level, uh, focus, like get a few players, get them training just for sevens for a few years.

Develop a solid, solid seven team, then reach, [00:31:00] have good results, reach into the higher competitions, and then you can start to send a few, few players in. But have that core group of players that will be the, the residents, uh, of that team. I would, I would see it that way. 

Carl: Shame that world Rugby are trying to ruin the sevens game by removing series and leagues and legs.

And it's Yeah. The thing, 

Tomás Appleton: it's, it, it, it was so good. And the, the, the, the sevens, the World Circuit was like such a good show and such a good, uh, spectacle, uh, for fans and everything. I, I remember the first time I played in Hong Kong Sevens was, yeah.

The, the crowds, everything. It was insane. The first time I stepped on tweaking them on the sevens was insane. Yeah. And nowadays has been changing. Uh, it changed, it changed, uh, a lot. Honestly. I cannot say it's better or worse in terms of rugby by [00:32:00] itself, but in terms of like the environment and everything, I think he was a, a step down.

Honestly, I didn't think a lot about it. I'm not sure why. Um, but yeah. 

Carl: So the main reason we are doing this podcast is Ireland coming to town. 

Tomás Appleton: Yeah. Ireland is coming to town. 

Carl: So how, how has the conversation gone within the camp, within the, within the group? Obviously it's not quite the full Irish side 'cause obviously majority of them are off on the lines tour, but what an opposition to having in, in, in Lisbon.

As well. That's the main thing. Yeah. It's 

Tomás Appleton: gonna be, it's gonna, it's gonna be amazing. But I think we, so after the World Cup we have, I, I would go, I would go with Ev even back, so when I first start, first started to play, uh, for the national team. We were playing second tier European rugby. Yeah. Then we got [00:33:00] Depromoted into the third tier of European rugby.

Yeah. And the biggest team that we faced for 10 years. Yeah, it was Georgia there. There were last team we faced for 10 years. And then in 2021 we played Japan. It was the first game of Portugal against the top 10 team in like 20 years since something like, since since the World Cup 2007. Wow. And then we have the chance to play Japan, and we just had kind of a surprise how good we were against a team that was so different from us, and especially knowing that.

One and a half year ago, we were playing in the 13, in the third year in the third division of European rugby. And that, I think that was like the biggest shock. And then we faced Italy. We, we were, we were winning until the last 10 minutes and we started to understand, oh, we're not, that, we're not that bad.

And then of course, with the, with the World Cup, [00:34:00] with the win against Fiji, we knew like we a proper rugby team and. With those games, it came the opportunity to play first against, um, South Africa, then against Scotland, uh, in Mary Maryfield. Mm-hmm. And all times the opportunity, um, to play against Ireland.

Of course, we see this as a massive opportunity for us to, to enjoy rugby. To, to play rugby at is full at, at its full. And with the best opposition every, we can speak about, of course, South Africa, Scotland, and everything, but I think we should, we cannot have this conversation amongst the team every time.

So, oh, it's gonna be a great opportunity. Let's show, uh, let's enjoy rugby. No, we start to our, our. Our words will have to go For compete, we need to [00:35:00] compete against these teams. There was, that was a big focus on the World Cup in 2023. Yeah, of course. We know that Ireland is an amazing team. We trained against them.

They were top, uh, the number one in the world for before the World Cup. They were, when we trained against them in the all guard. Yeah. We're the number one team in the world. We know how they play, we know, we know our weaknesses, but still we'd have to, to change our mentality and don't see this. As an opportunity.

We have to see this as a game where we want to compete and we want to do the best possible. Do you, if you ask me, are you guys going to win? I will tell you probably no. But yeah, still we want to show something. We wanna show something different. We want to Portuguese drug be honestly, at the moment, it's not going through a, through a, a great moment because we're, we're having a lot of tough.

How tough things going on. 

Carl: Yeah. Bit of a rebuild. Bit of a rebuild, going rebuild. And 

Tomás Appleton: we have to, to change that [00:36:00] something we have to, to, to show that something is changing. Something is it's, it's happening in Portuguese rugby. And if we can use the game against Ireland for that, that would be perfect.

Carl: Because it's back, back at the A. Correct. Yeah. 

Tomás Appleton: That's our, that's our home. That's where we train, uh, every day. That's where, where we are, uh, every single day. And we have to be a bit more, uh, more proud clinical. Yeah, and honestly proud, uh, because it, it, it's really tough for, because after the World Cup, a lot of players change and the core group changed quite a bit and a lot of youngsters came in.

And sometimes I'm not sure if the, if the younger players know the responsibility that they have when they use the Portuguese jersey and yeah, I think we have to be a bit more proud in what [00:37:00] we're doing and what we're representing and these kind of opportunities, opportunity to play against. Um, to play against Ireland, South Africa, Scotland, they came, yeah, because we did quite a lot in the last few years and the amount players that has been, have been involved.

In the last few years in the national team, they speak for themselves. So I think that's, that would, that, that is a message that, that I'll, that will, I, I'll be sure that I will pass to the, to the younger players 

Carl: because it's as, as the, all blacks say, you only, you only borrow the shirt. You've gotta leave it in a better place than the, the player, the, the player before.

So definitely, we've obviously touched on the, the World Cup 2023. How, how amazing was that to go and probably shock a rugby world as well? 'cause a lot of people didn't expect you guys to do what you did. And there's a lot of players that have probably come out with a sizable market value increase as well.

So they've made themselves [00:38:00] and port people love to talk about Portuguese rugby and there was the, the, obviously the social media followings increased, but. It's like a lot of these events as well and triggers, you can't always capitalize on it in the moment or just afterwards because it's, it kind of goes off like a firework, doesn't it?

And then you're trying to catch that firework, but trying to figure out how to create the, the impact afterwards. How was that World Cup for you? Like to be able to pull on that Portuguese jersey belt out, the national anthem that you guys do. That must have been one of those. It, it probably just, just below your kids being born and you and marrying your wife, obviously we've gotta put them first, but like that's gotta be there in it, surely.

No, 

Tomás Appleton: no, it is, it is. Of course. I remember the first time against Wales when I stepped in, uh, that stadium. Yeah. That was like, man, this is, this is happening. This like the. [00:39:00] All of the efforts that we've done throughout the years, now they're paying off. And this is, this is, I, I've, I've told this many times, so you probably know the, the struggles as a family that wives and the family has to do for players to play rugby at this level.

Yeah. And you know that my wife told me after the first game, like she told me, now I understand the amount of efforts that we did as a family. Wow. And only now it makes sense. Yeah. Because before that she was used to seeing me play in a hundred seat stadium with 30 people watching. And even when I played for the national team, there were, there were a few, uh, big games with like 2000, 3000, 5,000.

It was something like that. And even when we qualified in Dubai, my wife was not there. This was like the [00:40:00] moment that everyone was, everyone was waiting for not just the players, the, the players, the staff, the union, the families, and every fan in Portuguese rugby was waiting for this. And I think the way we did it was, was so good.

And so they, and not even just for us, for, for everyone involved in that, they, they just deserved it. And if. The, the, the way that, like the, the thousands and thousands of people who flew from Portugal to stadiums in France watch us play people. I, I saw people that they didn't even have a connection with rugby and they just heard about it and they went and they, they started Wow.

Rugby fan after that. Um, and I think the way we live and we perform in the World Cup was. So in first training, this is a story that I've, that I've told many times as well. So we knew after those games against Italy, [00:41:00] uh, Japan, Argentina, 15, we understood our value and we understood like we can, we can do something, we can shock the world.

No one, no one believed in us. I'm, I'm a hundred percent no one believed, uh, in us when and when we reached the first training. Uh, so. Our first game in the World Cup is was on the 12th of s September. Yeah, we got into the camp on the 26th of June. So when we got into the camp on first training, I told the boys and after, after speaking, uh, with Patris as well, after the boys, guys, we are going to win against, uh, Wales.

We're gonna win against Wales. First time I, I said it, most people, most players were laughing. They're saying, oh, come on, this guy's crazy. And I said, believe me, we're gonna win against whales. And second, so second training, so 27th of June, I said, boys, we're gonna win against whales. And there were [00:42:00] not that many laughs uh, after that, yeah, training.

I said it again and no one was laughing. Fourth, fifth, sixth, I said it again. And at something like 10th. After that other players were start, they, they were starting to say it, boys, we're gonna win against sales, we're gonna win against sales, we're gonna win against sales. And that mentality, I think it changed the way, uh, we faced training and we faced the preparation.

Yeah. We faced everything. And of course we didn't win against whales. That was a thing. But I think the process we built it was, yeah, win against Wales. That was the process who made us win against Fiji. Uh, and every time we went to, I. We went into, we stopped step onto the field, uh, in the World Cup was Yeah.

To win. And we were a hundred percent confident that we were going to win every single game. It didn't happen. It didn't happen the way we wanted. Of course we had that draw against, um, against Georgia. Mm-hmm. [00:43:00] Um, but still I think the, the balance of the World Cup is insane for us. 

Carl: And that's the thing, it put Portuguese rugby on the map, so we obviously.

Probably need to touch on the Rugby Europe championships. This season obviously didn't end in the way that you guys started the championships. Obviously we caught up after the Iberian Derby and then obviously you guys had the Romania game in in Portugal. What is your sort of debrief of, of the European championships?

'cause it's you, you didn't play the last game either, did you? So it's, it kind of, it kind of ended in a bit of a. A bit of a damp pending, obviously 'cause of the weather was horrendous as well for the last game, but it, it, it become, it came a bit of an anti-climax of a, of a championship for yourselves. You started so well and then it just kind of tipped off.

Did, is that how you saw it or? 

Tomás Appleton: So, uh, it's, it's, it's not, not, [00:44:00] it was a, yeah, it was a, so it has been. Tough. So this, as we spoke before, this rebuild, uh, of the national team, uh, has been, has been tough. And we took, I think we took too long to start this re rebuild, like this rebuilding process since 2023. So we have that thing going on with, with having a new coach in the beginning, uh, just straight after the World Cup.

Then we didn't find, uh. We didn't find a new coach, um, for the rec in 2020. Uh, four. Yeah. We had to work with, uh, with uh, an argentian from, with Argentian staff from the, from world Rugby. And I think this kind of of process take a while to build. And we just started late and. [00:45:00] I think Simon and his staff didn't have the, they didn't have the time to build everything properly because Yeah, the qualify, uh, world Cup qualification was coming in.

Yeah. And our main focus, of course, was to qualify. So we've reached the final, uh, of the rec of the Rugby Championship in 2002. 3, 3, 4. Yeah. And, but honestly this year, 2025, our main focus, uh, was not qualified, uh, was the qualification was not to, to win that we didn't even have the players availability, uh, uh, the, the whole group available for the five games.

Yeah. So we had, we had to manage, so we, and I say we as a staff, players in union. Was managed in the way it could. Uh, and I think now [00:46:00] as we are qualified for the World Cup, we have time to build a solid process. Yeah. And of course it was an anti-climax. It started really well. I think we started really well because we are like really motivated.

The World Cup. The World Cup, the World Cup, and I think we, I think we lost a lot of energy, uh, preparing for not even. I'm not saying like physical energy, but a lot, a lot of psychological and Yeah. And mental availability, uh, for those, yeah. Um, and after that we were just trying to, to find ourselves. And we know, and honestly, I think Spain has a really solid project.

They're, they're ahead of ourselves. I think we have better results in the last few years. But they have a really, really strong base of the pyramid as we were speaking. Uh, yeah, about and in, it's, it's tough for me, [00:47:00] for me to say that, but yeah, in few years I think there'll be, there'll be ahead of us because, and we saw it, uh, through this game.

I think we can try to compensate in the next two years. And, and we, we have to, we have to. Yeah. Uh, but still, Spain has a really solid project and there were our. There were, I dunno what to say, 

Carl: what happened. They were, they were, they were better on the day, weren't they? And yeah, they were better 

Tomás Appleton: on the day.

Yeah. 

Carl: And it, and obviously there is a, there's probably a, as you said, the, the projects have crossed between your rebuild and their, their sort of increment. Obviously the remaining game was probably the biggest shock. 'cause I kind of did not, even after the, the port, uh, the Spain game, I did not expect.

Romania to, to sort of do the, do a number on you like they did. 

Tomás Appleton: Yeah, I think, I think there was, there was one game. I'm, I, I don't want to get that game as a, like, as a mirror of what was happening because Yeah, [00:48:00] as you said, terrible weather. Uh, it was that terrible weather is the perfect game for, for them.

Yeah. We were missing a lot of players. We were completely. Um, how this rotated 

Carl: fully, fully rotated. There was loads of players not out. There was new, new, new players 

Tomás Appleton: as, as I was speak, is, uh, talking. Then mentally we were, I think, I don't think we were available, uh, for that game. And it's, it's not, it's not, I don't want to say it as an excuse, but I think after the qualification of the World Cup, we should, yeah, I think we should have prepared things better, um, for this Rugby World Cup, but I'm pretty sure we will learn our lessons.

From that campaign that it honestly was not good, was not good, was not good enough. We did, we reached the main goal that was qualified for the World Cup, but still is not good for the standards we want. Yeah, 

Carl: so two years left to the World Cup. 2027 Australia. Are you, you still gonna be there and capped it in Portugal?

Is that, is that, is that the swan song? Is that the swan song or are you, [00:49:00] are you No, honestly, another, another one out after. 

Tomás Appleton: No off. No. If you, if you ask me, I want to be, I want to be present in the World Cup 2027. I wanna. I wanna leave this team, uh, on that World Cup, but you'll never know. I'll need to, at the moment, I'm focusing on performance.

I need to, I need to perform, I need to play well. I need to show the stuff, uh, that I'm still capable. I'm not, yeah, I'm not getting younger. Uh, but I think I, I think I can make it. I think I, I can, I can still perform. So. That's, that's, that's my individual goal. And of course, in terms of collectives, uh, goal, we want to, to, to do more than we did in the, the 2023, uh, world Cup.

We are not sure about, like a pro, we don't have a proper goal because we don't know yet the proper format, uh, of 2027 World Cup. Yeah. But still we want to shock the world again. We'll do everything for it. We have way more time. [00:50:00] Um. To prepare, uh, for the World Cup. So, uh, but yeah, individually I wanna be there for sure.

Carl: Amazing. One last thing, then. The players that you, you get to see coming through, who's, who's a player that you suggest people keep an eye on in the Portugal scene at the minute, that's gonna become a potential superstar. 'cause there's a few lads that are playing well over in France and stuff, but there's gotta be one that stands out that you, you stand back and think this kid is special.

Tomás Appleton: So what I would, so of course you have the names like Manuel Vareiro but they are proper known names already. Yeah. In France, even the, the way Storti performed in, in Pro D2 Manuel Vareiro , they're brilliant players, but they're not young. Uh, yeah. Already. But the, the one that I think people should keep an eye on is Manuel Vareiro

He just signed a contract in, in France. He's going, he's moving to [00:51:00] France. He's one of the biggest talents in the, uh, in the other 10. Is he, he showed that he has the potential to be in the, in the first team of Portugal. Honestly, and I've told him this, I don't think he was brilliant, um, on the Rugby Europe championship, um, on the last two games playing at 10, but still, I hundred percent that he has the potential.

I'm, I am hundred percent sure that. He will reach that top level and he'll be a fundamental, uh, piece on of the squad and I think everyone should keep an eye on him. 

Carl: Amazing. Thomas, I really appreciate your time, mate. I know you've gotta get back to your, your family and you've already given us thank too 

Tomás Appleton: much.

I really, really enjoyed it. Sometimes it is good to, to just send these ideas out and Yeah. And send my opinions out is good. 

Carl: It is perfect. Obviously I'm there for. Uh, Portugal Island Games. So hopefully we can catch up after the game and, uh, hopefully with a better [00:52:00] result than, uh, the last time I got to see you.

Tomás Appleton: Yeah, hopefully 

Carl: really appreciate your time, mate. Thank you. 

Tomás Appleton: Thank you very much mate. Thank you. 

Carl: Right. So for everyone else that wants to keep abreast of any other episodes that we've got coming up on that rugby through the leagues, we've obviously recently D done a couple of international captains drop your message.

Let me know if you fancy me trying to interview anyone else and we'll see what we can do. But for everyone that's joined us, really appreciate it. Thank you and goodbye.