Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 11 - John Clark - England Deaf Rugby

From Rugby Fields to the Weight Room: John Clark's Incredible Journey | Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast

In this episode of Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast, we are joined by the inspiring John Clark, a rugby player and fitness enthusiast who has overcome significant physical challenges. John shares his journey from playing rugby at a young age to competing as Britain’s strongest natural man, and how a devastating neck injury led him to shift his focus to fitness. Despite his tough setbacks, including hearing loss, John made a remarkable return to rugby, representing the England Deaf Rugby team. We delve into his fitness philosophy, the importance of pre-season training, and the evolving nature of the fitness industry. This conversation is a testament to resilience, passion, and unwavering dedication to the sport and to personal growth. Don't miss this motivating story of turning adversity into strength!

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:38 John Clark's Rugby Journey
02:30 Transition to Strongman and Fitness
03:30 Endurance Challenges and Return to Rugby
04:00 Hearing Loss and Joining England Deaf
09:16 Reflections on Rugby Culture and Youth Development
13:55 Balancing Rugby and Family Life
17:00 Coaching and Future Plans
28:12 Challenges of Communication in Rugby
31:56 Adapting to Hearing Loss in Family Life
35:08 Pre-Season Training Strategies
44:11 The Importance of Tracking Progress
46:31 The State of the Fitness Industry
57:31 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Transcript

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through The Leagues Podcast. Last week we obviously had the Spain captain. This week we've got the man, the myth, the legend. That is John Clark. He hasn't got spine left and there's no gym, fitness influencer or influenza that is safe out there at the minute.

Everyone's getting popshots. So we thought the man that has managed to make me shift a bit of timber for a change. Probably a perfect time to get him on. And John, really appreciate your time mate and thank you for coming on. 

John Clark: No, thank you for the kind words and thanks for inviting me, mate. Looking forward to, the conversation ahead .

Your gym escapades sort of talk for themselves a bit, but obviously you also play rugby still. part of the England Deaf Team. Can we go through how your journey's gone? Because it's, you've been around a little while now, mate, ain't you , self-proclaimed. 

Been around a while. I've seen some things. Done some bits.

Yeah. My, um, uh, my [00:01:00] journey, where to start. So I started out in rugby. I've played rugby since I was 11. Typical, like, went to secondary school, fell in love with the game, played it, loved it. I went to university just to play Rugby. Oh, wow. Um, wasn't interested in the degree. I was just like, yeah. I got a unconditional offer to Loughborough but went there and everyone was boring.

Yeah. So then went to an open day at Worcester and all the Rugby lads were on the beer. I'm like, that's the place for me. So yeah, I went to Worcester Uni, um, played there for three years and then, um, continued my own journey with Malvern Rugby Club So we were in the national leagues at that point.

Some knob head's would call it semipro 'cause you're paid to play, but we're talking pennies, not pounds. Um, although, yeah, we'll, we'll say our semipro. Yeah, that, that sounds better. Right. So basically, basically you had 

bar tab paid for. That was all it was basically. 

Yeah, it's a classic, oh, here's £75 a game and we can rock around the nightclubs, acting like we, Worcester Warriors

even though , we clearly not. but um, so yeah, I played there and then a [00:02:00] scrum collapsed. Um, mid, or what was it? About 2008, 2009, scrum collapsed felt a click, click in my neck and turned out I put two hairline fractures, uh, in my neck. And the general, advice and guidance was, yeah, your done you're probably not gonna come back from this as a prop.

The, the, the suggestion was change position. And as, as most props can attest to, I do not have skills that pay bills outside of that front row in the dark arts No. So, um, so yeah, I basically decided to get into. Just the gym work. And I was like, if I can't play rugby for a while, let's just see how strong I can get.

I ended up becoming Britain's strongest natural man. Uh, two years in a row, won Midlands Strongest Man got to uk, got to England. Um, knocking on the doors, trying to get to that higher level. Uh, became morbidly obese in the process. Um, drug free lifter, chasing the gains, chasing morbid obesity a long way. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I ended up getting too heavy for my body.

Uh, dead lifted some massive weight, like 400 kilo dead lift, 380 kilo [00:03:00] squats like. Like putting, like that's why I don't have a spine Yeah. Anymore. And then, uh, my knees just weren't able to keep up with the way I was lifting. I was, I'm genetically disposed to be very strong. Ultimately. Yeah. I just, if, if you're gonna give an given a god-given talent mine is strength.

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And, uh, my body just couldn't keep up with the progression and my knees were just getting worse and worse. And in the end I was just like, I don't, I don't want to have knee replacements by the time I'm 40. So retired, dropped weight, went back to rugby. Uh, along the way, running 48 marathons in 48 days and all the other stupid stuff I did in the endurance world.

Um, 24 hours on the skier, hundreds of thousand meters on the skier. The 4 4 48. The 48. 48 48, which is 48, 48 days and 48 counties. Then the, the cherry on top of the cake was The Marathon des Sables which was 250 kilometers to the Sahara Desert. And then I was like, yeah, I'm now done with running. I, my forest gumb days are done.

And then, yeah, I went full set send into [00:04:00] rugby. And then since then, um, I lost my hearing not long after that, all three, that kind of timeframe. And I opened the door for England deaf qualification. So grabs that with two hands, uh, moved to Ledbury Rugby Club, which had been outstanding in terms of supporting my hearing loss And.

My general ability to be a dickhead and, um, yeah, here we are now. So I made my debut for England, uh, last year against Wales. Went on tour with them for South Africa. Nice. Uh, played against Jamaica and Wales again this year as well as completed the Iron Man, uh, every league game, um, after the Ledbury Rugby season this year, which at 38 years old, I think is something to be proud of.

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Yeah, and that kind of brings us pretty much full circle to, to today. So yeah, I've done some bits, see some places and yeah. Got some stories to tell. 

Carl: I think a fair assessment is you just like pain by the sounds of it, to be honest. Like, 

John Clark: yeah, I, I often wonder why I do this shit. Um, I have a very good ability to find the bottom of the well and see how deep we can go into that [00:05:00] pain of resilience.

But I, I just love it. I love, I love the test. I love the challenge like. It's so easy as we get older to get comfortable, right? Yeah. We have more money, we have more comforts, we have more things around us that mean we can do less and still survive. And. And for me, that's not where growth happens. It's not about going out and finding stuff to suffer with.

It's about stuff that you get excited about. Like I've, I, my new thing at the minute's, a 20 minute road test, how many calories can you do in 20 minutes on the rower? 

Carl: Mm-hmm. 

John Clark: And I've got absolutely no reason to do it. There's no need to do it. But I just love it that, that the pre-game energy, the nervous energy on the day you're gonna do your 20 minutes.

Yeah. Setting up the row and you're like, I don't wanna do this. This is a really bad idea. The first five minutes where you're cracking through it being like, I am a God and I'm nailing this, and you hit the wall. Or there's life questions. Why am I here? Who am I? What am I doing? Why no one's making me do this?

And then you get over the finish line and it's like that. Oh, that's why we do it. Yeah. And to me, fitness, rugby, training, challenges, marathons, whatever, that's all it's about. It's about [00:06:00] finding a bit of discomfort in your day to still feel alive around the comfortability of life that we created for ourselves as we, as we get older and as we become

Adult's apparently. 

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. That's it. So it's, it's definitely a passion of yours as well. And as we sort of, you've sort of installed that back into myself, I know, I, I really enjoy training. I, I, I had a similar sort of journey to yourself. Um. I broke my neck in a car crash though when I was 19. So did that, then thought I'll be all right, I'll carry on.

And then ended up front row and I like tell people you broke your neck. They're like, ah, you probably shouldn't. Yeah, it'd be all right. And then like, now I've obviously been caught out with my hip is, uh, is giving us a bit of jip with my training ain't it, so I've been advised to move further backwards, but let's see how the, the pre-season goes and, uh.

That's physically possible, obviously, Ledbury Rugby, Mate, you've, you've had a fairly decent season this year, haven't you? A [00:07:00] little, uh, little 

John Clark: trophy at your end there mate, as well. It's been bittersweet, mate. Mm-hmm. We, um, we got, we got promoted into that league, highest league that Ledbury's ever played. Uh, really young squad, uh, average age 20 to 23.

Like there, there's, there's three fossils. If you take the three fossils out of the team, the average age is early twenties. Then we are dragging that average age up considerably. Mm-hmm. All front obviously. And yeah, we, we won some, we lost some, we learned along the way. We, it, it is a classic season. I coulda, woulda, shoulda in the league.

We went down to the last game of the season. All we had to do, all we had to do was win our last game. To stay up. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And that was the aim as it always is when you get promoted. Right. Stay in the league, you just got into. And, um, yeah, we, we can see it at a try. last playing the game in the most heartbreaking way you could imagine to, to get relegated.

But I always say you find out more about your teammates in the bad times than you're doing the good times. And yeah. And the, the club and the team and the loud just rally together and we had a shot at the Papa John's. National Cup, so [00:08:00] we were like, well, we can still leave this season with something. Yeah.

Like we, yeah, we've got experience. Those young boys took a huge amount of learning from that next level up, and we'll be back there next year. I'm, I'm sure of it based on everything that the club's got planned and the lads all sticking together, and I'm sure we'll be back where we belong, but. The experiences we got from that, we took it to the Papa John's.

And then yeah, we, um, we went on a tear We were like, if we would have played like that in the league. Would've been like mid table. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And um, yeah, it got to the final and then in true Ledbury fashion we were winning. Doing really well. And then we just managed to concede several tries, couple yellow cards. So then we were, I think it was 12 points down with like three or four minutes to go.

And, um, it started with a scrum We, we pushed 'em off the own ball. We went and I, I managed to borrow over the line from two meters, but we'll call it a 20 meter. Side sidestep, fullback, 

Carl: easy. 20 meters. That's it. 

John Clark: But yeah, we got back in the game and then we're down to the last play of the game.

And, uh, we managed to go back up the field and got over the line and 

Carl: wow, 

John Clark: we won [00:09:00] in the most slight. How we got relegated was how we won all those lessons and all the stuff and all the hardships came together in terms of like, you never give it, never give up and just keep going. And yeah, finished him with that medal, finish him with the trophy after the season that we just had was, yeah, phenomenal.

But it just goes to show like there's a lot of bad stuff that's said about kids in rugby and culture and how oh, it's different from when we were kids and they don't have the same respect. And they don't train as hard It's they do. If you find the right culture, you find the right team, find the right work ethic, and those boys will literally die for that badge.

They absolutely love it. And, um, yeah, testament to Ledbury and the culture they've created. And we finished on a high and already preseason starts next week. Yeah. Nice. Um, yeah, buzzing about that . 

Carl: I caught up with Mario Pichardie and he, so the Spain camp, they also had the under twenties there ready for their under twenties world championship.

And Mario's only 24. And he said that that group below is [00:10:00] a different kettle again. Like they're, they, the way they communicate, the way they, he said it's, it was weird even being sort of four years ahead of them. He said they're in a different category. And do you think the way that. We've got to approach rugby.

I know we've got the old values and the old ways of how it's done. That doesn't need to change. But do you think how we access the younger generation in helping them develop and find that passion? Because there, there are certain ones in the, in the younger generation that are for the easy way out because it is available now.

Um, and that's becoming more and more common. But I think. Rugby is the perfect vessel to change a certain group of society. Do you, do you agree that there is a way of accessing that, that generation? Yeah, I think just 

John Clark: understanding that the times are different now man like the values that we need to keep in the sport are teamwork, respect, um.

 Physicality, [00:11:00] and, and just being a good bloke off the pitch. On the pitch and after the final whistle. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: The values that we can, and I, in my early thirties, I was like, the values that need to stay are if I take you to drink and you fucking drink it, you fresher prick and all that kind of stuff. But now I'm older and I'm like, no, that, that's the stuff that needs to go because that's the stuff that's not encouraging people to continue and like.

As you'll know as a front rower from a younger, like a younger age, the hardest part of a front rower's career is he's the 18-year-old big dick about town smashing another 18 year olds. And then he comes up against me. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: 20 years as senior can spot 300 kilos. I'm gonna shove his head up his ass. 

Carl: Yeah.

John Clark: But if he keeps turning up. He'll be a bloody good player. Yeah. But he's not gonna keep tearing up if his teammates are making him see off points out of his shoe and Yeah. And making him feel like he's a lesser human because he is younger. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And that's one of the, the real good values of, of where I'm at and with rugby and now, is that they're, it doesn't matter your age, like everyone's treated with respect.

Everyone turns up, everyone trained, everyone puts a [00:12:00] shift in. The metrics that are valued are hard work and consistency and turning up, and that's what creates a good team. And yeah, we'll have our social and you'll have your, the initiation with a few dirty pints and whatever, but it's just, it's once a year.

It's not every single week. And that expectation. And yeah, I do think there's a huge amount that Rugby's got to learn in terms of how we nurture those younger lads like mm-hmm. One of the things I've said for years is that I think every club should have like a, a cult, um, like kind of liaison officer of getting them experience into senior rugby.

Yeah. Because there's that big shock, isn't it? Yeah. And then they land into senior rugby. They don't necessarily have the same connections with the older lads. Um, like I looked like I was, they weren't even alive when Johnny Wilkinson kicked the drop goal. They were just being born with Mark Cueto. foot was, was it in touch or was it not in touch 

Like. And then I'm trying to connect to these boys that I'm old enough to be their dad. Yeah. Um, so, but I do think that. Players like us set the standard and set the [00:13:00] tone that we still lift, we still train, we still prioritize being healthy, fit, active, and turning up to training, even though we've got kids life and reasons not to be there.

Yeah. And that's what then sets the standard for them. Whereas if we're the ones that are like, no, I'm too busy. I've got my life, career kids and whatnot, I'll just play on a Saturday. And then we winch that the 19 year olds have the attitude. So 

Carl: yeah, 

John Clark: demonstrate the values and the attitude. You want them to demonstrate and they'll probably follow because they, they look up to you as a senior player.

Um, but yeah, I, I guess it's a lot about balancing modern society, but mate, even like how we communicate, right? We've got a group WhatsApp chat, and all the boys were on Snapchat. , like, the lads are like, download Snapchat. We'll put you in the group chat. I'm like, no, I'm absolutely fine. I'll, I'll stay on WhatsApp.

You guys do your thing on Snapchat, but I don't need to be there. 

Carl: Se send, send me in letter in a post and I'll, I might reply, but Christ, Snapchat, gimme 

John Clark: a week. Yeah, gimme a weekly summary. I'm good. Just keep me up to date with any of the in jokes and we'll roll from there. Uh, 

Carl: no, uh, no 

John Clark: thoughts of [00:14:00] hanging up your boots then.

Is it one more season? Oh, daily. Think about hanging it up, mate. The, um, it, it's that classic thing, isn't it? It's like the, the analogy, other issues there with the rowing, that you get into it and you love it and you're excited about it, and then as you get into the hard bit you're like, I can't keep doing this.

I'm like, it, it is too much. You know? It is breaking me. Spiritually, emotionally, physically, and then you finished and then you get all the like, oh, I miss it. I wanna do it again. Yeah. And so like if you'd have asked me two, three, we had the conversation two or three weeks before the final. I was like, this is my last game.

And then we won the semi and I was like, no, this is my last game. And everyone, the final. But for me, it's all about balance in in home life as well. Right? Like as you'll know, being a player with kids and whatnot, it's. You're basically asking your other half to be a single parent for 30 Saturdays of the year, and it's a big, it's a big ask and it's a big stress that you put upon them.

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: my wife absolutely loves it. She supports it and she values me playing rugby and what. That demonstrates to the [00:15:00] kids, but it's also started to take its toll with four children, two dogs, and now a pet dragon that our elders now have. So Perfect. I think, um, my aim for this year will be one more year, but it will be more, less of an iron man and more of a Olympic distance Triathlon.

Yeah. It will be not as many games and playing when I'm able rather than. Sacrificing huge amounts of family time and, and that's not to say I'm not fully committed, it's just ultimately balancing the books. Yeah. And as we get older, it's almost like our transition out, isn't it? Like so somebody's gotta come and take 

Carl: that spot from you, ain't they as well?

That's the thing. And if you are there to support that transition. Somebody's gonna learn from you. 

John Clark: Well, that's the thing. This year I was starting, loosehead, one of the younger lads, came back from Canada. He is like 21. He is an outgoing beast of a player. Yeah. Like hell, a baller, should be playing far higher league.

And um, he took the shirt and I did all I could this season to try and help him, encourage him. Offered some advice where I could. He'll, he'll [00:16:00] wear that shirt now as long as he is at the club, like he's a phenomenal player and that, that for me is my job is like the next tight head or the next loose head.

And that helping them understand how to play the game at a senior level. Yeah. How to balance being a dickhead whilst being firm and fair and all those kind of things. Yeah. And if I, if I can get to end the next season and go, do you know what if I stepping down and leaving the club without any front row resources Yeah.

To play at the level that they're at then. Uh, I feel like I've left the club in a better place than I found it. And, and then I'll be able to just run about and play whatever team I'm needed in rather than trying to push for a first team start week in, week out. 

Carl: Yeah, perfect. Because there's a bit of a change of management at Ledbury at the minute as well.

Is there? They were looking for a new coach, 

John Clark: so Yeah, a new coaching team, which is also, um, an interesting one 'cause you're back to ground zero. Right, because it, it means that I can't just turn up. Knowing that the coaches know that I'm fit enough to play 80, I've gotta be there to show 'em I can do it. So yeah, it keeps the 

Carl: [00:17:00] wheels turning.

Any thoughts of getting into coaching or not? I. Not in your remit at a minute. 

John Clark: Um, again, mate, like if I was ever to stop playing, if it wasn't for an injury, it would be because the time commitments, just the stress that it puts on the family life and whatnot. So stopping playing rugby and then coaching is probably the, the most back arsed way of managing the bumps that you could imagine, because ultimately, from what I can tell the coaches, spend more time with the rugby club than the players.

Yeah. Setting up beforehand, tidying away, dealing with all the bullshit, dealing with all the politics, dealing with selection, dealing with happy players, sad players, moody, teenagers, and all the other bits that fall into it. Yeah, so if it was me stopping playing because of time, then coaching's probably not my answer, although I absolutely love it.

Like I did a bit of scrum coaching for a couple of years with my former club and absolutely love that. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Um, but yeah, I never say never, but, um, it's a shame, isn't it, if you've got 20 years of experience in the dark arts. And one thing, if I think if I was to ask any of the players I've played with, what's the one thing that I bring to the [00:18:00] team? 

What's the one, like being the he does better than anyone else? It would be scrimmaging that is like my, my bread and butter. Like we've got a really dominant scrum at Ledbury, kind of like, I wouldn't. Wanna just have that 20 year experience and not be able to pass it on. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: But I guess that doesn't need to be a full-time coaching gig.

It can just be sessional stuff and helping people understand the dark arts. Yeah. So to speak. Or even just the basic arts scrimmaging, which is just really badly taught. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: At at at international level, that alone local rugby club level. But yeah, we'll see. Never say never, but time will tell. 

Carl: So obviously England deaf then, mate, you got called up.

We've got a few games under your belt. How, so obviously, how did the diagnosis come about as well? Because I had, uh, Michelle Hayward on who's, uh, the England women's captain, well, Christ, about a year ago now. So she come on and she, she'd become deaf by being stamped on in a ruck. How did, how [00:19:00] did your sort of diagnosis come about?

What, what sort of woke you up to the point that you actually thought, I can't actually hear. Much going on. What's, 

John Clark: yeah, so I, I basically had a big run of ear infections when I was a kid. Right. I didn't really think anything of it at the time. And then I own, so pre COVID and lockdowns, I owned, uh, four gyms.

Carl: Mm-hmm. 

John Clark: So I was actively coached on the gym floor, 30, 40 hours a week in person. And I just started to notice stuff lot over the time. You can tell that it's that classic, like, half an eye closed and one ear pointed towards the conversation. I just found myself doing that more and more often, and I was like.

Is my hearing terrible or not? Yeah. I put my earphones and then I'd have to turn it all the way up to full volume, my iPad, iPhone telling me like, turn your headphones down. I'm like, pissed off. I can't even hear it. And then it just led to that and I was like, do you know what? Maybe, I dunno. Maybe there is an issue, maybe I need to get it checked.

Yeah. And then. Yeah, I went to the hospital, well, got referred in, went to the, um, audiologist specialist and whatnot, and they said, my left [00:20:00] ear is terrible. I've lost, um, 60, 70% in my ear, my right ear. I'd lost a little bit, but not a massive amount, but they'll give me hearing aids for, for both ears. And it isn't until you put them in and you're like, whoa.

 Birds tweeting in the trees, and I could hear bacon sizzling in the pan. And wow, I can hear like if my wife sat next to me, I can hear her breathing now. Whereas like before, I was like nothing. Just blissfully unaware of anything around me. And you don't realize how bad your hearing is until 

 you have it back. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: So that was stage one. And that wouldn't have actually qualified me for England deaf because I don't think I would've had enough hearing loss total to, to qualify. So I never reached out because I just thought, well, I probably just don't qualify. 'cause in your head you think, well, deaf is fully deaf and sign language and not able to communicate with, with the spoken word.

And then about 18 months, two years ago, um, I just woke up and my right ear had just gone. And I had loads of like puss coming out my ear and I just thought, oh, it's another ear infection. Wow. Antibiotics. [00:21:00] That didn't heal it. And then it went on for like two or three months, multiple different antibiotics.

And essentially I eventually then pushed and pushed and pushed, and then they admitted that I'd had an ear infection alongside. Sense of neurological loss, which is basically something that when it happens, if you get a set of anti-inflammatory drugs, then it can, it's got a very strong chance of recovering the hearing, but it has to be taken within seven to 10 days of it happening, 

Carl: right

John Clark: So we're three months on at this point. So they're like, I'll give you the drugs, but the chance of it actually having an impact are slim to none so don't get your hopes up. Wow. And um, yeah, they were slim to none. So I've now got, I think it's about 15 to 20% left in my right ear and my left ear continue to deteriorate.

So. I've got about 30% I think, last time I looked in my left ear. So, um, I rely on hearing aids and day-to-day situations. Um, and then obviously like stuff like this with my AirPods in, turned up to the absolute max. I can just about make out what you're saying alongside lip reading. [00:22:00] Um, so yeah, that's kind of the story really.

And ultimately how it happened. We just, will they still don't know MRI and CT scans for brain tumors, for how my ear is internally, is it constructed properly or whether deficiencies or anything not right. And all of that looks normal and looks fine. Different specialists have got different theories about whether it's heavy lifting, whether it's repeat knocks to the head with rugby and, and the list goes on.

But no one can give a definitive. This is the reason, other than at the current rate of loss, you can probably expect to be completely deaf within the next kind of five to 10 years. So the journey into learning sign language is, um, is ongoing and, um, and yeah, we, we move. It's just when a life sings, isn't it?

Trying to ultimately made the best of the bad situation, reached out to England deaf saying, does my audiogram qualify me? They came back going, yeah, we'd love to have you down. Come down for some training. Trained started last January. And then, um, and then, yeah, made my debut in March, I think it was, and then yeah, managed to find [00:23:00] a way of getting selected in every game since.

So yeah, it's been, it's been a wild ride, right. Wearing that, that rose, like Yeah. When you, when you dream of that as a kid, right. Wearing there, standing there with the white shirt on, with the rose singing. The national anthems like stuff streams are made of. Yeah. But then, yeah, running out for the first time playing against Wales.

Yeah. It's not proper England. And I get that. I'm not standing here saying I'm Alice gge, but to go through that experience to represent the country is phenomenal. And I always say like, these are my hearing gave me more opportunities and I could have imagined. 

Yeah. 

So, would I have all of my hearing to have not had those experiences?

Is the, is the multimillion pound question. Yeah. 'cause the friendships I've made, the teammates I've met, the experience I've, I've had off the back of it and the lessons I've learned that have shaped who I'm as a bloke, um, who knows. 

Carl: Ah, that's, it's, it's still what an honor just to do. Like, every time you just pull an England shirt on, even just to go and train or something like that, you, you still get a little tingle.

Think, hold on, [00:24:00] there's some better players that have pulled this on. But, uh. To stand on a pitch and obviously take on Wales as well. That must have been for a debut that that was one huge tick. Yeah. But we, 

John Clark: we don't like, we don't like wales and they don't like us lets just call a spade a spade.

Yeah. Yeah. We, um, yeah. And, but again, it was like you walk in the changing room and you've got your name above your shirt and the rows and all your warmup kits laid out and folded up perfectly. And you're like, oh shit, this is real. Yeah. Putting it all on and even like. Most of us have worn an England shirt.

Right. But I can probably guarantee you've never been a full kit wanker. No. You've never put the white shirt on the white shorts, the blue socks in your boots. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And when you do, or if you have i'd be bit worried, but. But you do that and put it all on and you're like, oh, this is real. They're warming up. And then again, even just looking over it, them warming up in all of their Wales kit and everything else.

Yeah. Because they're supported by the union. So you're in full Umbro kit. Well, what was at the time Umbro kit 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Yada, yada, yada. And yeah, it's a real [00:25:00] surreal experience. You run out the national anthem anthem's playing because people in the stands, like parents are like tearing up in the background.

Kids look super proud of you. Yeah. They've all brought like. Cardboard signs and all this kind of stuff and 

Carl: Amazing. 

John Clark: Yeah. It was just an, it's just an honor like the, the, the team of blokes that I play with, they're phenomenal humans. Like some of the stories like from being born deaf to losing their hearing to cochlear implants gone wrong.

Yeah. To accidents on a rugby field, accidents at work. Loads of the boys are ex-military and lost hearing in explosions and Iraq and Afghan and full source mate, and meeting those people and the journey they've gone on and the challenges they've overcome and they're still standing, still turning up, still playing for their club, despite not, not understanding a fucking thing that's going on.

Is it just every day where you wake up being a bit, oh, I can't be bothered today. You just think of those blokes and you're like, yeah, it could be worse like lets crack on. So yeah, it's a phenomenal thing. And, and long may the deaf community embrace the deaf rugby [00:26:00] side of things. Yeah, and it's, it's a challenge at the minute 'cause um.

Ultimately, our game against Wales a few weeks ago had to be canceled because they couldn't raise a team due to availability of scheduling and whatnot. And the other unions haven't really pushed on yet. So we don't have a Scottish or an Irish deaf team as far as I'm aware. So it is quite hard to find.

The deaf opposition. Yeah. But with the deaf rugby, you've got international, then you've got community. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: So we're playing a lot of community games at the minute against other club sites so the, the deaf community can still come together. Mm-hmm. Albeit playing against other people that are of hearing basically.

But yeah, it's, um, if ever any of the listeners get a chance to go see a deaf game, then I'd highly recommend it. 'cause it's, again, it's just proper feel good day out. 

Carl: Yeah. And um, 

John Clark: and then yeah, if you wonder why everyone's waving, because that's how we clap. And we can't hear you if you clap, but we can see your hands waving at us 

Carl: Jazz hands.

Exactly that. Um, 'cause yeah, so obviously as you mentioned, [00:27:00] lads that go and play in a, in a, in their normal, normal teams, they, so Michelle said she had to sort of adapt to players that can't hear and obviously they've got players that are off, off, fully able to hear and stuff. Have you had to sort of tweak the calls and stuff at?

Has everyone embraced it and you found that, or have you just had to find a way of getting on without having to cause too much disruption? 

John Clark: Honestly, I think the idea of admitting to people that you're deaf and that you struggle is harder than actually admitting that your deaf Yeah and that you struggle.

Like I'd, I'd already come out with my hearing in terms of told the world. I had hearing issues before I went to ledbury. Yeah. The boys knew turning up and I could tell when turned up there was a sense of I dunno how this is gonna work. I've never played with a deaf bloke. and they maybe dunno, someone that's tried to play rugby. Like when my hearing aids are in and we're in the clubhouse and we're chatting and yeah, everything's fine.

I take them out and I'm like, silence. But honestly, like the, the blows [00:28:00] couldn't, I couldn't ask for a, a more. Beautiful set of blokes. Yeah. Like they from, there's two or three of them. So one of my other fellow front rows Aaron , I've known him for years and he's like my interpreter. So we'll all stand there in the huddle.

The coaches will say their thing, literally like five, 10 minutes of chat and I'm just like, I can't hear a fucking thing. And then I just turn to Aaron and then he'll, I can lip read Aaron now. So he'll turn around and he'll tell me what, basically a summary of what's just been said. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Um, and then away we go.

And it's been like I communicate with the referee before every game. Look, I'm deaf, so I'm gonna, I engage when I feel the hooker go. Um, you'll never do me for an early engage. Um, so just if you need to speak to me, make sure I know that you're speaking to me. 'cause if I'm walking off and ignoring you, don't push me back 10 yards.

I've just not heard you. Um, and the rest have all been fine. And then ultimately with the calls and things like that. So when we started it is just understanding patterns, right? So. We play quite a lot out the door, out the back door rugby, which relies on me knowing what the [00:29:00] ten wants. Yeah. But obviously with me being in front of him, I can't hear what he's saying, so I just change where I stand.

So I'm the offload option rather than the first car, primary carry option. Yeah. So again, it comes down on the decision making that I've got to. Make, because I just can't hear the information. Uh, not that many props are thrown out the door, but passes anyway. Right. And then with stuff like line outs and scrums, so the, a lot of them are hand signals and, and recognizing movement pattern site, you'll know every variation of a line out.

You've got four or five different variations from a three man four man five man whatever. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And then you've got your call for what are drivers, so. We just, I've taught 'em some very basic sign language around what the call for a driver is. Like every, it's either like every club is like a tank or tractor or a car or whatever, so they, they know how to communicate with me that we're gonna drive it.

Yeah. So I know that like we go and then it's just recognizing movement patterns. Like we've got a really set like stable team. So our second row partnership [00:30:00] has probably played together. 85% of this year. So I know based on what they're doing, where I need to be. 

Carl: Right. 

John Clark: And again, it's just practice. And then if we've got any big calls, like five meters out, we don't do a Lions from the weekend and just lob it in.

I'll make sure I know the, um, the call and make sure I know what's happening. So I'm not the weak link. But yeah, ultimately it's just comm it is honest things, communication, and that's, that's all it's about. It's just them understanding how to communicate with me, knowing whether they need to push me physically.

Into the right place or just make sure that they're speaking to me in a certain way. Um, and yeah, loads of them have gone out and learned little bits for sign language as well, sweethearts that they're so, oh, bless. Although most of them would just wanna know, I swear. They just keep coming up to me and being like, calling me swear words.

But, um, but yeah, if again, if anyone's listening watching this and they've got hearing issues and they're kind of hiding it and don't really wanna admit it, like my experience with people are nothing but supportive of it and, and help you with it. The sooner you admit to [00:31:00] it and the sooner you share that with your teammates, the more that they can find ways to help you.

Yeah. And then you enjoy the game far more because you then don't feel like you're the one that's letting the team down 'cause you haven't heard anything or haven't understood something or, or whatever. But, but yeah, it's, if you've ever got any issues or fear, fears or worries about you hearing, just get it checked because if I'd have got mine checked sooner, it probably could have

caught what may have been causing it. But the typical bloke thing have been like, oh, I'll be alright. It's not too bad. It'll be fine. And then you down the line, you then go with hearing aids and, and yeah. Learning sign language. So, but yeah, that's kind of like the hearing side of stuff with the club really. But, um, they, they very kindly ordered me like personality of the year, this year at the club for kind of, I think ultimately showing that what, what we can overcome.

Yeah. Um. Doesn't set backs, don't have to define as Right. It's how we react to them. That does. So, so, yeah, no, I couldn't speak high enough for the club and what they've done for me and the family. It's, it's a great place to be. 

Carl: Yeah. It's awesome. So obviously the, you kids, you, [00:32:00] you say you've got four, haven't you?

You've got four kids obviously they've grown up with, with the situation. How have they adapted to it as well? Like, do they just realize that daddy might not be listening to him 'cause he can't, or do they try and. Play off it and think happy days. I can play Daddy against Mummy 'cause Daddy hasn't heard, but he said yes, no, the kids normally do, 

John Clark: nah, that they're good as gold.

Like they understand like even our 3-year-old and like my wife was away with the other kids this weekend at a concert. Uh, so I stayed behind with our little one, our three Year old and so, Without Hannah being there, my wife, he now comes up to me and he'll like tap me if he wants me. And he's only three.

And he's figured it out. Like if he just sits there and shouts, dadda, dadda, I'm like, I can't hear anything. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: But if he comes up and taps me, I'm like, yes mate. What do you want? Yeah. And like even he, I'm trying to teach him a little bit of sign like. 

Carl: Brilliant, 

John Clark: how are you? And like, fantastic. And things like that.

And, and so he didn't have a real, he didn't really know what he's doing, and the youngest kids are just, um, again, they're just like trying to learn swear words. Think [00:33:00] it's hilarious to go around insulting people without them knowing what they're saying. But yeah, no, again, they, they just understand the situation.

They know that if they say something and. I have to ask them again. Uh, we've got like a three, a three time rule, so if you say something twice and I've still not got it, try rephrase it a different way on the third time. 

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: because normally lip reading from what I can remember with the numbers of statistics, but at 60% of words you can lip read and the other stuff's gets work based on movement patterns.

Carl: Oh, okay. 

John Clark: Um, so again, it's like if you try, if you're saying something to a deaf person and they're trying to lip read you, and it's not like they're struggling, just change the words because Okay. Certain words, like the whole, like, I love you and elephant juice. Like, they, they look, they're the same movement pattern, right?

So it's how you just rephrase it and how you change it. And my wife's learning a little bit of like sign language as well, so when we're in busy places and whatnot, she can communicate with me better. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Um, but again, it's just adapted. Like it's, it's no different than anything else in life. If someone [00:34:00] scribbles with something, how can we help them?

And hopefully again, it's showing the kids that. If something like that ever happens to them, it's not a death sentence, it's not the end of the world. Similarly, if something like that happens to their friends, then they understand empathy and support and being kind and considerate, not just going, ah, you deaf fucker, and, and trying to take the piss with it.

Yeah. So, um, so yeah, no, they're good as gold with it. Um, but yeah, they're not, they don't particularly try and players up against each other because they've normally got written evidence between me and the wife because we communicate through text sometimes. Um. But yeah, no, they're good as gold. And again, it's just understanding what's, what's to come.

So, um, I'm trying to push for them to start learning a bit of sign as well. And then I'm about to, uh, go through my, my formal level one qualification with it. So I'm gonna then try and teach them what I've learned. even if they can just fingers spell. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Um, so if they're, if they're trying to say something and someone can't understand it, they could just spell the word out and then it means that we can still communicate on that level.

Carl: [00:35:00] Yeah. 

John Clark: Um, but yeah, again, more and more people are learning sign more and more people are becoming aware of it. So, and long way that continue. 

Carl: Yeah. Amazing. Great work. The online coaching mate is obviously. Now takes up majority of your time. Is that probably fair to say? Uh, we're, we're in constant communication as well.

Obviously with me being part of your, your stable, what is, what is the target for pre-season for most players? Because as we know, there's probably four types of players that you got. The ones that are all in want to get better. There's the ones that will dabble in and only be touch only. You've then got the ones that literally are the ghosts that never turn up.

They're always in the pub. Then you've got the ones that pretend to make a bit of an effort. What's, what would be the ideal plan for each of those sort of categories? Obviously even the ghosts that thinks they come, they turn up and then they realize that the Bronco cones are out and they think they can disappear.

They've um. They've still got, we've still gotta get a way of getting through the season. What's, what's your advice to players? 

John Clark: I think the [00:36:00] main thing is like, where do you, what do you actually want are your rugby season? Mm-hmm. Like the work that you do now. The work that you do in pre, so the work you do in pre preseason, the work you do in pre-season, then the work you do in season 

Carl: Yeah.

John Clark: Will dictate your enjoyment of the game. So if we're talking to the older lads, like guys like are age that are like there, there's less game, there's less games ahead than there are that you've played. Your enjoyment of the game will come from the work that you do in maintaining your physical competence.

The reason, the biggest reason people retire right is the game's gone. The game's too fast. Yeah. And I can't keep up and everything hurts all the time. Bullshit. You just got slow. You got lazy. Yes. You may lose a, a yard of pace, but the chances are you've probably not lifted in the gym. You're probably not doing the extras that you were when you were 21.

That's why the 21 year olds are now taking your shirt. So it comes down to me and the question I always ask, like a lot, I get a lot of time this time of year. I get a lot of people contacting me, being like, right, pre-season starts next week. I need to get started. When can we start? What can we do? And I'm like, you should have [00:37:00] started a month ago, but we'll, yeah, the best time to start was yesterday.

The worst time to start is tomorrow. So let's just start where we are today. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And again, it's like what are the expectations? So for a lot of um, players, it's about building resilience and building tolerance to load. But again, I think a lot of the clubs have a responsibility to manage this as well, like busting out a Bronco for the sake of it's preseasons, let's make 'em do a Bronco.

Like Broncos don't make better rugby players, 

Carl: no 

John Clark: broken games of touch with running added into it. We'll make better rugby players. So. Again, it's, it's understanding your club's approach to fitness conditioning and pre-season as well, like ours. Uh, from what I can gather, this scrumming off season, uh, this pre-season will be a lot of kind of condition games and yeah, there will be some.

Run from A to B or the five meter line to the halfway line or whatever, but that's not gonna be the bulk of it. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: So for me, it's being match fit already because that's what we're gonna get tested on. But if your club's big on the Broncos and the DNAs and that kind of stuff, then you need a bigger bank of fitness because that's what you've got [00:38:00] to put yourself through to prep yourself for the season.

Yeah. So. I think a lot of people look at pre-season as the shit that they've got to do to get to the bit that they enjoy, but I look at it as the bit that I get to do. That means that I then enjoy the bit that I enjoy. Yeah. Which is playing the game at the highest level that I can play. So I can turn up to that first game knowing that I'm fit, knowing that I'm strong, knowing that I'm gonna put some loose head on his arse because I've done the work.

Yeah. Whereas the players that turn up at the back end of August, that do one week of pre-season and straight into games, and then they're sat there five minutes in being like, I am blowing. Like, you haven't done the work. No. So I think regardless of what camp you sit in and your attitude to it, my question to anyone is always there.

What do you want to achieve this rugby season? 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: And that will then dictate what you do. But for me, aerobic fitness is the bare minimum that you should be doing to have some level of fitness, which anyone can do that's not emptying the tank and taking you down deep into the well of despair. 

Carl: Yeah.

John Clark: Alongside some gym work. [00:39:00] As we know, the strength conditioning side is massive, and even if it's just squart, press, deadlift once a week. That's still gonna help you in terms of building tolerance, building resilience, and building an ability to handle the load, the rigors, and the impacts of another 18 stone man running at you.

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: so. Did that answer the question? I, I think it does. Yeah. 

Carl: Yeah. I think obviously most club gym, most clubs have got gyms as well. Now it's a lot of lads sort of disappear for the preseason, don't they? And think that golf is their preseason. I know a few, quite a few lads that, uh, disappear golf or cricket.

Yeah, it disappear. Think they can play 18 holes or, uh, or knock it around on a park on a Sunday, Sunday morning. Will, uh, will suffice us preseason. But the game's getting. Harder as you get older, like, oh, oh, I'm in the same camp as you. And like the, the lads that are coming through are quicker, but there is more that can be done and like, do you think, I get why clubs sort of have the [00:40:00] break, but do you think the clubs should try and do a little bit more to keep players together?

Like the preseason will start as a, as a mass activity, but give options for, for players to consistently train. After the end of the season, because I've seen a couple of clubs like do running clubs with with lads. They'll get down, they'll do few. There's about five or six that will go along and they'll keep together.

But then a lot of clubs just disappear for the two months and then just wait and see who comes back. Is it an opportunity, the clubs. 

John Clark: Yeah, definitely. I think the more proactive clubs are actively offering those opportunities, whether it's the summer rugby league or mm-hmm. Um, just the whole like movement into, um, adapted rugby in the it where it's like you, you can, you can walk, you can run, you can get tackled, you can get touched regard.

Like you choose your own level of what you're comfortable with. Yeah. Um, but again, I think the other side of it as well, mate, for guys like us, is that we just need a fucking break from the monotony. Like we need a break from Tuesday Thursday, Saturday Tuesday Thursday, [00:41:00] Saturday . So for me. Our club does that.

They have like touch rugby and the lads get together on Tuesday nights and do some fifth, whereas I'm like, boys, I'll see you in June. Yeah. Like so if I, if I come down and do that, I'm definitely gonna risk divorce. Like I need to see my wife, I need to see my kids. So, but again, I can do that comfortably.

'cause I know I can take charge of my own fitness and I know I'm putting myself in a hole with my own training. Whereas if I was just relying on. Rugby training to get fit, then I'd be like, yeah, I need to get my arse down there. But I do think it just comes down to your general overview, overall view of fitness.

Are you using rugby training to get fit or are you using rugby training to improve your skills and ability? 

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: and for me it should be the latter. Like if, I'm pretty sure every rugby coach up and down the line would rather spend preseason working on catching ,passing patterns of play, scrumming, lineouts malls.

Not for the baseline because you're on a set of lazy fuckers that have done nothing for three months. Yeah. But again, like we say, like it's a long season mate. You get to the end of it and the last thing you're thinking about is like, ah, I need to go do [00:42:00] more fitness. Yeah. But at the same time, the first thing you need to be thinking about is what does next year look like?

And the work you do now is gonna dictate the season that you're about to have. So I do think ultimately it's the players' responsibility, but it's also led by the club and the culture they promote. We were told at no uncertain terms, we come back fit for the start of pre- season and don't come back looking to get fit.

Yeah, because you will get left behind. And obviously with those, we've got the added impetus with the new coaching regime and new starting like, like we say, starting at zero with balance, with with credit in the bank. Yeah. So the lad that wanna put their best foot forward will come back having done stuff and those that will avoid the gym at all cost regardless.

Won't have done, and they'll probably then have to wait until the November, December when injuries start to come in before they get their chance. So again, it's just you're at the end of the day, you're a grownup. Decide what you want out of the season, but don't be whinging at Christmas time that you're still playing second team rugby when you didn't do pre-season, you've got lifted any weight and you just spend most of your time in the bar rather than on the pitch.

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: like again, it's, [00:43:00] it's like you can't get mad at the results you didn't get from the work you didn't do. And that's the often thing that we see with the older rugby player. And it's like, oh, I'm not going selected, and these young kids have taken our place. And it's just like, well, maybe you've not done the same amount of work that they have in terms of in shape and that's now led to you getting dropped.

Um, so I do think it just needs that honest. Reflect from a player, and there's nothing wrong with going, you know what, I'm just gonna turn up in whatever rig that I've got and I'll play for whatever team I'm selected for. Cool. You do you brother. That's absolutely fine. But don't sit there whinging that you're not in the first team.

shirt , because someone else has put the work in. Because in the modern game. Natural skill and ability just isn't enough. 

Carl: No. 

John Clark: Even at regional level, like county level, like fitness, strength, power, all that stuff is just as important as being able to catch, pass, bend over and push. So yeah, it just comes down to that honest reflection.

What do you want? And then we can then put a plan in place based on the outcome. 

Carl: Yeah. It definitely works. Like [00:44:00] obviously I've managed to shift a bit of timber feeling in a better position. We've got a plan for for preseason as well now, so it's gonna be exciting to. To get underway with, 

John Clark: I think. Um, just on that, I think a lot of it though is understanding the measurables and the metrics, right?

Yeah. So are we getting fitter? Are we getting stronger? Are we getting faster? Are we getting leaner? A lot of people that haven't involved themselves in a coaching process, they just kind of do a bit and be like, how do I feel? 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: But if we've had a few beers the night before, we probably feel a bit rough.

We don't feel that fast. If we've had a cigar the night before, we're probably not feeling that fit . I know with my 20 minute road test that week on week on week, I'm getting fitter. I know with my back squats that they're week on, week on, week improving. 

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: so the biggest advice I can give anyone that's not in a coaching process or self-managing their training and everything else is track your bloody numbers.

Because if you know what your body weight's doing, you know what your lean muscle mass is doing, you know what your fitness scores are, you know what your strength scores are, you can then determine X or Y one or zero, [00:45:00] yes or no. Yeah, I am improving or I'm not. Rather than just do a bit and be like, yeah, I've done bits, that's enough.

And then be shocked when you turn up and find out it's not. No. Um, so yeah, just try what doesn't get measured, doesn't get managed . Right. So that's a big philosophy of mine in general. 

Carl: No, I see. I, I think that's key. As you said, making sure you actually see a pattern makes it easier to, to. To keep moving forward or you then tweak that pattern to make sure you see the results that you want to do.

And it can be done with or without a coach. It's just sometimes they'll have a lot easier to do it with a coach that can then call you a fat c**t doing it. Um, 

John Clark: yeah, I get belted Wheelybin been moving you prick No, it, so it's, at the end of the day, it's accountability and it's someone that's not in the picture frame.

Right? Yeah. Like you've got. a missus, you've got kids, you've got multiple businesses, you've got rugby like you are in the picture frame. So you can't necessarily take a step back out and look at the bigger picture and be like, am I progressing? Am I doing what I should be doing? Am I exhibiting the behaviour that [00:46:00] I need to exhibit?

But me who stood looking into the picture can be like, that plate needs adjusting. Yeah, that volume, that dial needs changing. And actually, do you know what, although you're annoyed that you've got lost his weight this week, you've also done this, this, this, and this, and we're still seeing progress. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: So it is all, for me, coaching's about being able to take the step back and look at the bigger picture rather than when we're doing it ourselves, we can get so focused on the, the instant wins rather than the long term progress that we're making.

Carl: Exactly The um. The fitness industry as well is currently full of a lot of dickheads. Uh, a lot of pretend made up guilty. Yeah. But pretend, pretend made up bullshit for people to follow different trends. And obviously you are leading the fight in calling a lot of this out. Do you, do you think the, the industry's lost its way, or is there still enough good people out there to, to help guide people forward?

Or is it just full of people that have. [00:47:00] targeting a quick buck because it, it is an easy opportunity to make money. 'cause people think that they can pass the problem over to someone, pay them X amount and they're gonna instantly lose weight. And then obviously you've got these weight loss injections, et cetera, et cetera.

You've got all these cheat codes of how we're gonna lose weight rather than just actually getting shit done. Is the industry lost or is it still there? It's just, you've gotta work a bit harder to find it. 

John Clark: I think you had to be found before you could be classified as lost. Right. And I don't think it's ever actually had a stable footing of none oil salesman and knobheads 

If you go back to the eighties, nineties naughties from Arnold Schwarzenegger days, it's always been fun of people selling the quick buck, selling the bullshit, the potion, the. Snake oil. Remember from our day, like Gaspari SuperPump and all this shit that we used to take like Jack 3D bring it back. Yeah, just bring it back.

That would solve 

Carl: everything wrong in the world. Jack 3D back. 

John Clark: That would probably, yeah, it genuinely would. Productivity would be an all time high . Yeah. Granted, we're probably die early, but yeah. We got more [00:48:00] shit done in the in, in the less years that we have. But no, I think a lot of it is just ultimately, as you say, so there's nothing more emotive than our personal relationship with ourself, really.

Right. How you feel transcends everything. Your productivity and life, relationships, work, career like. Everything kind of starts with how you feel about your bones and the rig that you walk around in. As you'll know, as you've lost weight, you've more than likely felt more confident, felt more purposeful, felt more productive.

Mm-hmm. So the industry is very easily leaned into. People's weaknesses, and as the gurus call it pain points, how can I make you feel like a piece of shit and how can I make you think that I've got the solution? The solution ultimately is to do the work. Yeah. But ultimately people don't want to accept that because that requires work.

So that's where the quick fixes and the lead in six weeks and, and all this bullshit comes into it. Then you've also got the other side of it of unrealistic expectations of what the human body should look like. So I got an interesting response [00:49:00] the other week when I put up a thing saying like, most of my guys don't wanna be shredded.

They don't wanna step on a bodybuilding stage. They don't wanna have abs. 

Carl: Mm-hmm. 

John Clark: They just don't wanna have to breathe in. When they tie their shoe laces, they wanna be able to wear budgie smugglers at the beach and not feel like they're outta place. They're not trying to be bodybuilders. They just wanna feel comfortable.

Yeah. And, and I think again, that's the other side of it is that people have been led to believe that unless you're chasing Arnold Schwarzenegger style rigs then you're failing. Yeah. And like the amount of the amount of negative comments I get on my Instagram posts about my body. I'm like, fuck you.

This body's dead lifted 400 kilos. It's run 48 marathons. What have you done? 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Um, because people associate success in the fitness industry with bodybuilding. Yeah. 'cause again, that's where the bod, that's where the industry was realistically formed. Right. With the gods gym and, um, Arnold and all the other stuff back in the day.

So I think there's a lot of stuff that falls into it, but I always say you can only polish a turd and sell it once before people see through it. But the issue you've got with the internet is that there are millions and millions of people that will buy a turd. 

Carl: [00:50:00] Yeah. 

John Clark: And that ultimately means you could just rinse and repeat it until they start buying it, and then you move on to the next thing.

There's no repercussions. The industry isn't regulated and, and it never will be. So I think ultimately all that we can do. Is lead the fight in terms of what is good coaching? Yeah. What is, uh, what you should expect to receive from a actual. Coach because most online coaches, most in person coaches, they're not coaches, they're programmers.

They're, here's the program, crack on. Did it work? Yes. No. If it didn't, you're shit, you don't want it enough. You need to grind harder. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: No nuance, no understanding of a situation, no putting strategies in place. And I say all the time, the, the worst coaches make the really complicated, really simple, and that's it.

So X is Y. Whereas the best coaches make the really complicated, really simple mm, but then give you strategies to then implement the simplicity into your day-to-day life and all the nuances that fit around it. So I think the more [00:51:00] we can do to grow good coaches and good people, then the more it will shine a spotlight on the shysters and the the bullshit.

But unfortunately it'll never go away because it hasn't done in 30, 40, 50 years of the industry being, I was thinking then eighties is like 20 years ago. It's not now, is it? It's like nearly 50 years ago. Yeah. Um, but, um, which is worrying or 40 years ago. But, um, but yeah, I think as, as a bit of a long answer to the, the question, but no, I don't, I don't think the industry's lost in terms of there's no hope and it can't be corrected.

I think there will always be like, there isn't any industry. You'll have good secondhand car salesmen, you'll have dodgy ones. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Uh, it's any industry's the same people looking to make a fast book. Um, don't care about the people they're working with. They just care about their own bank balance. But they're the people that will be gone here today and gone tomorrow.

People like myself that are coached for coming up for 20 years now. Still in the industry, still coaching, still trying to make a difference, still getting messages from blokes on the weekly saying, you've changed my [00:52:00] life, you changed my marriage, you've changed my relationship with myself. 

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: they're the good ones and they're the ones that we need to promote and talk about more.

But unfortunately, the majority of really good coaches I know have got two to 3000 followers, and they're not well known in the industry because they're not trying to over sensationalize information or make stuff shareable. They're just putting out good quality content. So. If you, if you want to help spread the message of good coaching, whenever you see a coach that puts out good content, their content, like it, comment on it, share on it, that's the biggest thing the general population can do, is to try and make the voice of.

Logic and sense be louder than the voice of quick fixes in sales. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: But again, it's either weight loss drugs , right? Like I meet alot personal trainers are intimidated by it because they think it's gonna ruin their, their careers. And if you genuinely think that a weight loss drug is gonna replace you as a personal coach, you're not a coach, because I can't imagine someone's gonna be chatting to their weight loss drug, talking about their feelings and their [00:53:00] emotions and their body confidence, and the fact that the kids got them up.

Three times in the night and then the weight loss struggling now to give them an answer. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Same as ai. If you think that AI's gonna replace the empathy and understanding that you have for your clients and the people you work with and you build a relationship with, then you're not really building very good relationships if you're, if that can be replaced by a computer.

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: So I do think a lot of it is better if you're worried about. Your livelihood being taken by these quick fixtures. Yeah. But at the same time, making sure that those dickhead don't have the, the bigger platform as they do. Like, I'll, I'll just call it out, Haskell the other week, talking about he managed to shoe horn, um, cognac into his, his father's passing.

Yeah. Yeah, like unfollow, I'm out. Like I, for me, that's just it. It's unforgivable in terms of like the influencer sphere So for me, unfollow, remove, I'm not gonna give you the, like, I'm not gonna give you the follow. 

Carl: No. 

John Clark: And that's ultimately, it's like politics. That's how we vote with our feet, right? So if you are the stuff that you don't agree [00:54:00] with, unfollowing and leave rather than just muting them because that'll make a bigger difference to the ballshit that they pedel .

Carl: Yeah. I think that's obviously the, the way that. With social media, you can sort of see more of different things and there's a lot more people being sold out in a sense as well. Like you said, there was obviously his dad passed and then he had, uh, he shoehorned in and then they did an advert with, what was it, Remy or whatever it was, the, the cognac vsop.

And you think, but he's always been unapologetically about the money, but. Your dad dying, maybe be a different conversation, but he is what he is. But if you don't agree with it, you just move on. Whereas a lot of people start making the comments, like you said, about people taking pot shots at your, your weight, uh, your, your rig that, your old gear, all of these sort of different conversations.

They keep start trying to spew it. Yeah, like. Just move on. Like if you [00:55:00] don't like it or you got, if you're not happy with your own self, just move on and go and look at somebody else that you agree with. 

John Clark: This, this is the problem, right? Is that most normal people don't like conflict. 

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: don't like, like I put that thing up about Haskell and I had 200, maybe even 300 messages in my inbox going, oh, I saw that.

What a prick. I just replied back going, well, what did you do about it? Yeah. And they were like, oh, I've told you about it. I was like, did you unfollow it? No. Did you comment on it being this is a bit in bad taste? No. So why would he then not continue to do that? Yeah. Why would he not continue to monetize Absolutely everything possible and yeah, rightly or wrongly, whether it he, he's quite clearly open it's just about the money.

Deal with it. It's not my problem, it's yours. So leave or walk or make a statement about it, but yeah. Don't just sit there in silence and be like, oh, I'm, I'll still get, I'll still follow and I'll still give him the credit and the kudos and like the next post that comes up that, that suits what I believe in.

Yeah. So again, for me, the, the, the, the problem that you've got, and this is why I think I've rub people up [00:56:00] the wrong way, is 'cause I'm not as scared to have the difficult conversation. If you're gonna be a c**t you, I think you're a, c**t yeah, it is one of those things. Ultimately, I think that's where people like you and I don't necessarily see eye to eye with everybody, and we're an acquired taste of Marmite, and it's like, I'll call, I'll call it what it is, and if you think I'm being a dickhead and I'm being irresponsible or whatever, then I'd expect you to tell me.

Carl: Yeah, 

John Clark: because that's what. Being a bloke is about, in my opinion, like speak your truth, speak your values, and stand for something rather than just being whinging and moaning about stuff and not actually ever taking action. Save as the whole like, oh, I'm not getting selected for the first team, but you're not doing the work, have you?

Same theory. It all comes down to being a man of conviction and being a man of the values that you wanna live by. 

Carl: Yeah. 

John Clark: Um, so I do think that comes down to a lot with it, with the fitness space. So. Ultimately it's not lost. And the people that are worried about it being, well it is lost, but it's not irreparable.

It's just comes down to supporting the right people in the right way and calling out the bullshit. Like, I've got a reel that's gonna go after this call. That's about [00:57:00] a woman saying like, oh, people that, men that are bodybuilding, no woman gives a shit about her. Why are you doing it? And the whole message behind that is like, for me.

I wanna be stronger, I wanna look better at a t-shirt. I want to show that my kids that physical fitness and health is a priority. Like 

Carl: yeah, 

John Clark: it's that classic thing, isn't it? It is. Like if people did more of what was valuable to them, then they'd probably see a better result and be less annoyed with the world around them.

Um, but yeah, the fitness industry got some explaining to do, but I'll keep trying to fight the fight in some ways. Instagram get shut down by, by somebody. 

Carl: Absolute quality. I think on that note, it's probably a perfect time to, to call this one an end. John, really appreciate your time, mate, and uh, I'm really looking forward to, to what we can do this season for my rig as well.

And anyone that wants to sort of change their rig mate, where can. 

John Clark: Uh, yeah, the bending barbell uh, which is like my Instagram. Or if you are not a master social media user, then just head to my profile and go to my bio and then you'll see my email list. So [00:58:00] I'm trying to put more content out on my email list as much as I'm on my.

IG at the minute. Um, so yeah, they're the best places, but I always say every, any podcast I, everyone, if there's anything on this, on this podcast, any subjects that you wanna chat about, dive deeper into ask questions, just drop me a message. A lot of people think that they can't message like podcast guests, but I, that's the whole point, right?

Yeah. It's to help spread the message, help spread the love, help spread the knowledge. So if there's anything that you wanna chat about, drop me at the, I'm happy to cover anything that we've covered, even if it's just chatting about hearing loss and, and worries or concerns about that. The inbox is always open.

Um, so yeah, depending bar on Instagram or my email list. 

Carl: Awesome. And for anyone that wants to keep abreast of all our episodes coming up, we've obviously got John on this one. The next episode's gonna be coming out with Thomas Appleton on the Portuguese captain ahead of the Portugal Against Island game in Lisbon.

So I'm actually gonna be there at that game just ahead of just after the release of that episode. So make sure you [00:59:00] like, follow. Subscribe, all that sort of gubbins. Make sure you keep sharing the love so that we can keep getting amazing guests on by John. Uh, thanks for joining us. Thank you and goodbye.