Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 9 - Huw Griffin Lions Special

Lions Tour Squad Breakdown with Huw Griffin | Rugby Through the Leagues

In this episode of the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast, we delve into the 2025 Lions Tour squad with special guest Huw Griffin. This comprehensive discussion covers player selections, positional breakdowns, potential stars, and the crucial matchups against Australia. We also speculate on test scores and debate the nuanced strategies that could shape the outcome of the tour. Tune in for expert insights and engaging rugby analysis!

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
01:21 Discussing the Lions Tour and Key Players
05:50 Tour Schedule and Logistics
10:41 Challenges and Key Matches
15:37 Squad Analysis: Front Row
24:41 Squad Analysis: Second Row
28:38 Squad Analysis: Back Row
29:24 Lineout Strategies and Trends
33:23 Selecting the Starting Test Forward Pack
37:18 Scrum-Half Selection Debate
41:39 Fly-Half and Center Partnerships
47:29 Wingers and Fullbacks
53:23 Young Talents and Final Predictions
55:47 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell

Transcript

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This week we did try to get Anthony Watson on, but we've had to settle for Huw Griffin, uh, who seems to be on pretty much every Rugby Pod podcast as well. Another friend of the a ATR family. And we want to do a Lions special. I've kind of kept this all in the dark from Huw as well, so we kind of gotta go with the flow and everything like that.

But Huw's got plenty of knowledge of what we've got coming up and yeah. Huw really appreciate you coming on me. 

Huw Griffin: My pleasure, mate. My pleasure. Yes, I, as you say, I am the, the rugby equivalent of sand I get everywhere. Uh, and I, I, I'm on too, too many pods, but. Listeners and viewers, you are most blessed to be hosted today by the guest on my show that is the most viewed podcast on my YouTube channel, and by a lot 13,000 views for the growth of Spanish rugby.

 Blew my mind mate. I was emotionally prepared for [00:01:00] like, no views on that. I was like, this is interesting. So I was I mate, this is interesting. But I dunno if anyone's gonna watch it and it's the most watch body thing I've ever done. 

Carl: Perfect mate. No, I really appreciate your time for letting me come on that as well.

It was a really good one. Really enjoyed that one mate. And, uh, well, lot of sounds of it. So did the viewers. So hopefully we can, uh, return a favor with this one as well, but right. The Lions tour, there was a few changes, a few shocks potentially on the leadup weren't there, so obviously Kalen Doris, who was my bolt on captain, got injured in the Leadup.

With Maro You stepping in. I think there's actually gonna be a benefit to the Lions personally. What about yourself? Uh, 

Huw Griffin: yes, I agree. I think Caitlin Doris was nailed on. I think once Kailin Doris got injured, Mario Ojay was the obvious one. I dunno about you. I get the feeling with  Maro Itoje that he could be a bigger star than he currently is.

I think he could be bigger than rugby. If you look at what we've seen in other sports, sports, people [00:02:00] transcend, transcend their sport. 

I 

think Maro Itoje could do that. And you know, we've seen, he's not afraid of getting political and he's not afraid of being an activist and things, but he, he seems to still be a little bit within himself now if that's him.

And he's just decided. I don't wanna be the guy who's getting pelers in the press every other day. You know? That's fine. Can't argue with that. I think he's, I dunno whether he is still signed to Roc Nation or, or whatever it is, but I think if he decided he wanted to, he could be the biggest name in rugby.

So it is a shame Kailin Doris. 'cause even if he weren't gonna make him catch, and I still think he would, well he is clearly would've been the number eight based on the squad that we've seen. You know, marrow is, it was the, it was easy that you couldn't get it wrong 'cause there was such an obvious choices.

Number two, 

Carl: I think after the performance he put in for the Six Nations for England as well, that transcended him into that position. And I, I think we are actually probably gonna go into a better place with Atj on the. [00:03:00] On the rise that he's had, the, the potentially the way Ireland was slipping off a little bit.

I don't know if that was, it's timed perfectly for Itoje to, to step up. I don't think he's that character that you, as you said, I don't think he's the one that wants to put his head above the parapet on certain aspects. He's, he's just got married recently as well by the, by the looks of it, according to Okay.

Magazine or whatever. It seems to be all over. I think he's a, a bit of an introvert, but very intelligent man alongside an exceptional rugby player who had a really dodgy blip within his career, which could have gone one way or the other. I think there was a real lull in his, in his, his impact on the game, should we say, not his talent, but his impact on the game sort of questioned a few people saying, is he as good as.

Everyone's banging on about, and then this Six Nations really pushed him forward. And then I think the Lions tour's gonna, as [00:04:00] long as he doesn't get injured, I think he could come out of this smelling of roses pretty well, to be fair. 

Huw Griffin: Massively. I think he played every minute of every game for England in 2024.

Mm-hmm. And 

Steve Wick said the reason that he made, he took the captaincy off Jamie George and gave it to Marito is 'cause he wanted his captain on for 80 minutes. So, and you'd, you'd think that it's gonna be the case of Andy Farrow, you know, if you are a full lock Yeah. Going on this Lions tour, you're gonna be playing midweek rugby, I'm afraid, mate.

Carl: Yeah. I dunno why Jamie George ever got the captaincy at that time as well. I think there was, that was crying out for a younger captain. So I'm glad Borthwick did sort of reset that at the right time and I think that probably helped England move forward a little bit. I, I wrote 

Huw Griffin: a piece about Jimmy George, it.

I think he's, he was the mo, one of the most impactful captains that we've ever seen in the Northern Hemisphere because of how much off the pitch he got involved in. 

Yeah. On 

[00:05:00] the like administration side. And he obviously seems a very, um, influential and popular character. But yeah, I just wonder whether the dressing room there was, it was getting a bit, this town's not big enough for both of us, between him and Wick.

Carl: You can't have an admin captain when you've, with, when you're losing games consistently. Yeah. Or, or, or not getting the results that you should be as well, that's for sure. So I think it was time and he's still around, but I think, yeah. Time for I told you to shine mate, and I'm lucky for Doris, but looks like it could benefit English rugby as well.

Um, and obviously we, we get to talk about the impacts of Jack Morgan in a little bit as well. 'cause I think this is gonna be one hell of a tour for him coming forward. So the tour starts in Dublin on the 20th of June against Argentina. We've then got a trip to [00:06:00] Perth against Western Force, the Queensland's Reds in Brisbane on the 2nd of July, uh, new South Wales War in Sydney on the fifth.

We've then got the Brumby's on the ninth in Canberra, 12th of July, we've got an invitational au and NZ at the Adelaide Oval. Then the first. Test drops in on the 19th of July in Brisbane. We've then got the First Nations in Pacifica on the midweek induced tour on the 22nd of July at the Dockland Stadium in Melbourne.

Second tour game on the 26th of July in the Melbourne MMCG. Then we finish it up on the 2nd of August in Stadium Australia and Sydney. It's some pretty decent stadiums to France. In the mix there to start with as well. 'cause like the MCG and [00:07:00] obviously even Aviva and everything like that as well, that's a pretty, pretty decent list there just to, for fans to get around if you've got tickets to all of them.

Huw Griffin: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Oh it's, it's going to, it is a hell of an expedition. You know, it, the, I think sometimes we forget in Britain is that we live in a very small country and we've got warped perception of what's far away. Like we, if it's like 40 minutes down the road, you go, I'm not doing that and giving up a whole day to go there.

Whereas in Australia it's like two hour flight to your local supermarket. Yeah. So it's, yeah. So if you have got tickets to go to the whole thing, fair play to you because there's some investment that you've put into that. But uh, yeah, I think the big one that's gonna stand out is a hundred thousand people at the cricket ground is gonna be, that's gonna.

A spectacle one way or another. 

Carl: Well, like even just watching boxing, the Boxing Day test in cricket at the MCG and stuff like that is phenomenal. And to, yeah, put a under a thousand lines and Aussie fans in a, in [00:08:00] a melting pot in the middle of the test. It could have gone one way or the other for the, for the first one.

Could could win it could lose it. You who knows as well. It's a, it's a pretty crucial game to put in such a spectacle of a place. I actually looked at going and taking the misses and the kids and doing the full tour and it was up for, I think it was gonna cost 25 grand for the four of us 

Huw Griffin: could flip it.

Carl: I was just like. The wife was like, so where are we going? I was like, well, basically the whole of Australia. She's like, yeah, we are. Yeah, we're not doing that for 25 Grand darling. Yeah, that's, that's 

Huw Griffin: the thing as well. 'cause with Perth, with Western Force, you got like that over here and then everything else over there.

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. And there's like, what, three or four days in between to try and get like halfway across the world effectively. Yeah, exactly. 

Huw Griffin: It's, it's so funny. I dunno, have you ever been to Australia? 

Carl: I haven't, no. But my wife has, and she's, she [00:09:00] said, it's pretty fucking big. 

Huw Griffin: You, you get to, you get on, you're on the plane and you, you've got the map of the globe and the plane going across it, and the plane get depending on where you're going.

So I went to Brisbane and the plane gets to the edge of Australia and you think, oh, we're nearly there. Nope. Nope, you're not nearly there. Apparently that's a bit what it's like driving to Miami as well. You get, you go over the Florida border and you go, oh, we're nearly there. 

Carl: No, 

Huw Griffin: you're not nearly there.

Carl: Brilliant. Yeah, I thought it was bad enough driving from Spain back to England and it's like 18 hours. But did you like that about 

Huw Griffin: Manu Laggy? Right. When he moved to BA On, he drove from Manchester to BA on. 

Carl: Oh yeah, that's pretty standard. Carl Sinkler did it when he moved from, uh, Bristol to um. Too long as well because like it is just impossible to, like, if you go to Bay on, there's the nearest airport's Bordeaux, and like you can't get a flight from most places to Bordeaux and then you'd have to get a higher car, you'd have to move all your stuff and it's just easy to load your car up and just drive [00:10:00] the French.

The French motorways are so easy. Just put your foot down, crack on. Next thing you know there's a service station every sort of 10 kilometers. It's easy driving in France to be fair. So, um, yeah, just takes fucking forever. Fair play. So, yeah. Right. So we've got some amazing places to go on the, on the tour, the bin Juice games.

Obviously we've got, got the Western Force, the Reds, the wars, Brumby, the invitational. Side side. And then the, the nation, the First Nations in Pacifica. What's, what do you reckon is gonna trip us up there? Obviously Argentina beforehand is gonna be a good game either way, but he's not gonna pick the first team, is he?

To? Well, 

Huw Griffin: he'll, 

Carl: he'll have a, a mi a good mix. He's not gonna put anyone at risk of injury. Imagine that told you injured in the first game. 

Huw Griffin: Well, that's what happens to Awin Jones, against Japan. Yeah. Last time. Geez. But he came back amazingly. 

[00:11:00] Yeah. Um, 

I think the Argentina game is sticky. I think it's very sticky.

Argentina have got a habit of starting well, they've beaten like gone, gone to New Zealand and beaten the All Blacks first test of the year before now. Yeah. And they'll be up for it. Obviously. They, it is a bit of history there. I think it was 2005 card if Argentina beat the Lions and it was a very squeaky game, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that Guan go go west.

Mm-hmm. Argentina are a lot better than Japan, which is who the lions played last time. Um, on, on the actual tour, that invitational team is interesting because they, the, the Australia New Zealand one, 'cause they're, the talk is, the rumors are that it's gonna be players who are playing in Japan. So you're talking Richie Moga, come on down.

Yeah. You know Brody, 

Carl: Michael Hooper, captain, apparently, stuff like that. 

Huw Griffin: Aaron Smith. Um, so that could, that could be better than the. So that's interesting. And that's, that being a week before the test, I think you said? Yeah. [00:12:00] That's, um, that's scary. That could go wrong. Um, because what do you do? Do you go right, this is basically a bar bars game.

I don't, I can't do any prep on this opposition whatsoever. We don't know what the levels could be like. It could be like 15 hungover blokes. It could be the best team we've ever seen. Yeah. So do I just put a midweek team out for it or? Do I need to get some warmth into my first team? 

Yeah. 

So you don't know.

And then the one that I just don't know, the one that I just don't know is the Pacifica, um, first, first Nation as one, because that's the one that's in to replace the rebels, who obviously no longer with us. 

Yeah. 

And I just, what that, who's gonna play for that team? What's it gonna look like? Is it gonna, is it just gonna be Fiji?

I don't, I don't, I've got no idea. 

Yeah. If they got in charge of that one. I think, uh, I 

know that Turner Ger is the assistant coach, I can't remember who. [00:13:00] Yeah. 

Carl: Fully in charge. So former Wallabies Forward and Tonga head coach, TUI Fu was named head coach on the 26th. And you've got Glen Ella, Kofu, Simon Ali, and then Raya Lou, Raya Louie, and then Tar.

Uh, so they got a decent. Coaching set. But yeah, as you say, who's, who's gonna get picked is, um, 

Huw Griffin: if it, if it's a mix of Fiji and Dua and Moana, Pacifica, that's fun. But. With, I don't wanna get too much into the history of Australia, mostly because I don't know very much about it, but I understand like Very true.

Yeah. What we in Britain might have a preconception of an Aboriginal or a First Nation person. Yeah. Would be, I'm very sorry. I dunno the exact correct jargon. Yeah. Might not be totally true. Someone might tell you that they are a First Nation person and. You think, oh, I didn't think that you would be in things.

Yeah. For historical reasons. So, yeah. [00:14:00] So I've got, I, I've, that's a very long-winded saying of I've got absolutely no idea what to expect from that. 

Carl: Not, not a clue. Yeah, I agree. Um, Ian Foster's also been announced in the a u nz invitational coaching setup as well. So that's Worry about 

Huw Griffin: him. He's rubbish.

Carl: Exactly. So it looks like we've won that one already. Uh, yeah. So the, the, the. Job, job done. It should be a fairly straightforward bin Juice tour, to be fair, but 

Huw Griffin: the, the expectation needs to be a hundred percent win record. Yeah. I know In 2013, the lions lost to the brumbies in the midweek game between the first and second test.

Mm-hmm. That's when Shane Williams played in that game. Stuart Hogg at 10, but the expectation needs to be winning. Winning every game for sure. Yeah. I, I think they won every, every, I dunno whether you call it provincial franchise game in South Africa. I think it was about 50 50 in New Zealand, to be fair.

Yeah. And [00:15:00] then last time in Australia, which is the kind of the tour I remember, the best ironically is I just remember Lee half and he just. Kicking absolutely everyone off the park. I think against the war tower. It was, he got 11 out of 11 conversions in a game. 

Carl: Yeah, he's, uh, he weren't bad with a boot, was he?

No. Shame, shame. His legs didn't stay fully working all the time. He had, 

Huw Griffin: he had two career to two career ending knee injuries. 

Carl: He'd probably still do a job for whales at the minute though, mate. So, 

Huw Griffin: well he is just been appointed as kicking coach for whales. Actually, 

Carl: there we go. The, the savior's back. But, so.

I think it's time to probably get onto the squad before we look at who's gonna be the starters. We'll, we'll, we'll deal with the, the most important anyway, the front. The front row. They're the most important players that we've got. So Luke Cow and Dickie Ronan Kelleher. And. Dan Sheehan have gone as the three hookers [00:16:00] surprised with Cowen-Dickie as me, or, 

Huw Griffin: yeah, absolutely surprised with Cowen-Dickie absolutely surprised with Cowen-Dickie.

So I, I don't see everyone exp expect, expected. I think Rowan Kelleher, you can argue is he really best three hookers in Britain and Ireland. You can have a debate there, but I don't, I don't think any Irish player was, would've been a surprise. 

No, because it's 

the island island head. Coach Island had been the top team for how, how many years now?

So I don't think that's a surprise. Kawan Dickie was a surprise. I had Jamie George down as going 'cause he is a experienced lion. But you forget that Kawan. Dickie is also an experienced lion. Was down in, um, in South Africa last time out as was K Kelleher actually. 

Mm. 

And when I all I could find. The logic for that is 'cause I've read something in, I think it was The Telegraph or something.

They're saying that since he, he'd had a shoulder injury or an arm injury of some kind, and they're saying his throwing wasn't what it used to be. But then I looked at the stats and sail have got one of the best line outs in the world. Yeah, certainly [00:17:00] success wise. So I'm like, okay, cool. So there's that and sail get a lot of more tries now, which means he's dar it down.

But obviously it's not just because of him, but he is part of a successful system. The argument against that is they haven't picked any sale locks. Yeah. So how much credit are you giving him? Really? Because all we, whenever a line out goes wrong, we always hear, the commentator always says, well, everyone plays hook.

It's not the hooker's fault. 

Yeah. But 

it's not all the hookers, um, credit, but it goes right either. So 

yeah, 

that's a, that's an, apparently scrimmaging is very good, but I think a, a trend. We'll see with a few players through this squad is that we've seen both now Andy Farrell and Warren Gatland pick players who we didn't think were in particularly good form on two different Lion tours 

now.

So clearly there's some kind of thing that's. [00:18:00] A few of these players bring that we as an audience can't see and Luke Kaki seems to be one of those players. 

Carl: Only thing that I can probably call out on that is his willingness to just put his head and his tackle wherever it needs to be. Like he's been well renowned for just diving at shins and knees and anything like, I think Theo down would've probably been.

The next closest call up for me if he'd got more game time, but he seems to be out of favor in the lion, uh, in the England squad as well at the minute. He can't seem to get past Jamie George. Um, same as the same issue that Jamie George couldn't get past Dylan Hartley at times as well, so. He was, he was the Scottish hooker.

Huw Griffin: Oh, no one really? I think Dave Cherry is the main one, but I don't, I I think 

Carl: Ash Ashman. Ashman. Oh, 

Huw Griffin: Ashman. Yeah. I think hooker's a problem position for Scotland though. Would you [00:19:00] 

Carl: not have taken 

Huw Griffin: Ashman 

Carl: over 

Huw Griffin: Dick 

Carl: Dickie? 

Huw Griffin: I think 

Carl: he's, 

Huw Griffin: I would've taken De Lake 'cause and, you know, Welsh bias maybe, but yeah.

He's a, he's a fantastic ball carrier, and his line out darts are pretty good as well. Mm. And he's a, he's a big bloke. I was, and we'll come onto to this when we talk about another player in a minute, but he walked past me once. It was, I was in the standing Gloucester and I was, he, it was Gloucester versus Ospreys.

Uh, OPR lost and they, yeah, he walked past me 'cause he was injured at the time of the stairs. And there'd been people going past me all, all the time. All the time. All the time. And then I just felt the stand. Just go. Hm. I started shaking and I looked down. It was Dewy Lake coming up, and I was like, Jesus.

He's a, he's a mighty bloke, big boy. Yeah. 

Carl: I think if Wales hadn't been on the form that they were in, he'd have probably gone as well. He was, um, I do rate him as a hooker, and Wales had that formidable mo rolling Mo at one point as well. When they got that fire in, he was [00:20:00] at the back of it, and it was, it was pretty much a bob on ready for a try, but.

Form again, has probably hampered his inclusion. So we now move on to the props. The other, the most important on the pitch. So we've got Xander Ferguson, Todd Furlong, Ellis G, Andrew, Porter, Pierre, Schumann, and Will Stuart. I, I've got, I've got a group chat and I've got one of my, one of the lads that's on part of the pods and.

Well, Stewart is, every time he's on the team sheet, he's outing blue murder, but he didn't half have a decent six nations that potentially put him back in a mixer. 

Huw Griffin: England, statistically the best scrum in the six nations. Now between them and France, depending on whether you want to get six, whether you want to restart player or wanna win penalties, it's one of those two.

Yeah, but either way, England Scrum is good. So I think, again, Jan Stewart both go in and I, I expect them [00:21:00] both to be in the match day 23, 1 way or another. Um, the, uh, uh, pausing, I need to say that I was enthusiastically educated, shall we say, by South African lately, that it's Schuman, not Schumann, Schuman.

So, fair enough. I didn't know that either. So the, the, the thing for me is definitely another type had prop is getting called up. Definitely another one because Vegas in currently injured furlong, the day ends in the Y. So he's injured. 

Yeah. 

With those two being an injury Doubt. Definitely. Another one's been called up.

Now, Finley Beam's been named in the Ireland squad today. I expect it to be him. If it was me selecting the squad, I'd have taken Beam over Furlong because Furlong, you know, I Furlong is one of those players who people, when people think of him, they think of him in 2022. 

Yeah, 

we we're not in 2022 anymore.

And he's, I don't think he's been in great form for a while and he's just perpetually injured at the moment, so. [00:22:00] If, if you are nursing an injured player and then that only leave Santa Fe is injured as well. 

Yeah. So if 

you're nursing an injured one and then you go in on tour with one and a half fit ones and then you're playing a game every three or four days, that equals you need to call up another tire prop.

So that's why I expect to happen. I expect it to be Finley beater. 

Carl: I can't think of another one to, to come in. Maybe if Dan Cole hadn't retired, who knows? He call, I'm sure. 

Huw Griffin: I'm sure if the call came, 

Carl: he'd be on the plane. It'd come, it'd come back. Just wheel himself back for one last tour. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. You just sat just, everyone's just sat around the table down in Australia and go.

Can you hear the undertaker music? 

Carl: Yeah. Who's, uh, who's starting lucid then out of yours? 

Huw Griffin: Um. It will be Andrew Porter, it will be Andrew Porter. He, he's, he's a player who, if fits every coach is picking him at that. I'm saying that based on what we've seen coaches do. Yeah. Um, [00:23:00] obviously that a lot of people were talking about Nikki Smith as being an option to go, and I, I was arguing that you don't need Smith and Porter because they're two players who are looking to.

How do I put this? Win a penalty at the Scrum without necessarily having to go forwards. 

Yeah. 

Um, so if, if one of them gets on the wrong side of a referee, you substitute it on, you're gonna, you're just gonna have the same problem. 

Yeah. So 

I'm, I'm not surprised that having Porter and not Smith, but I expect Smith, sorry, I expect Porter to be the stuff 

Carl: I, I think he'll get picked.

He Irish. I would prefer to seeman Orman or whatever the Scottish way of saying it is starts. Yeah. Um, I think Port is. As you said, he's, he's got the dark arts perfectly nailed. I just don't know what else he adds around the park at times. I, [00:24:00] I think he goes, I, I don't see enough of him during games, whereas Schuman comes on, causes a lot of issues at Edinburgh the other week against the balls and stuff like that.

He's, he's here, there everywhere around the pitch as well. I think you can't just pick him solely on the scrimmaging. From what I see of Porter, I don't see much else. I see. A lot of errors potentially out of his game, but because of how big he is, he, he probably creates enough of an impact for people to still have to pick him.

So yeah, it'd be interesting to, to see how that, that goes obviously with the, with the Irish contingent. Picking the, picking the teams second, second row. Then Ty by Ollie Chesham, Scott Cummins, Maro Itoje ,Joe McCarthy. James Ryan, but obviously Maro Itoje gonna be picked there. Yeah, so we've got Tadhg Beirne [00:25:00] Cummins, Joe McCarthy, and James Ryan.

If you, if you ask me, leading up to the Six Nations, Joe McCarthy was probably one of the most exciting locks around. Now he's. Sort of fell out a favor. He got, 

Huw Griffin: he got steps in a phone box by Scarlet's Alex Craig on the weekend. 

Carl: Yeah, I think he sort of dropped off a little bit the lad and I'm surprised he's there in, in, in that form.

Scott Cummins, is that just, I don't, I dunno what he adds. Fair play the Wally Chessum for getting a call up though. 'cause I, 

Huw Griffin: I, I wonder if ol Chessen might be, uh. I think he is a lock six hybrid. 'cause we'll get onto the back row in a minute, but it's all sevens, it's seven o'clock. Yeah. Um, whereas Chesham is, is very able of, of playing in at six em's also the tallest man on tour.

Yeah. Led to believe. So I expect, I expect Chesham to definitely be involved in the match. Day 23. [00:26:00] I think I where in the build up to it. Everyone was saying, oh, second row is marito you tide burn. Nailed on. Nailed on. And I'm not sure what's changed to mean that people are no longer tide burn's. Just not the flavor of the month anymore.

It's, it's in, it's interesting and I wonder if there's a bit we'll get onto another player's kind of having this at the moment, just people are just kind of more excited about other people and it's has a narrative grown. The tide burns playing badly when he actually isn't, he's playing for a monster side.

That's not great. For an island side that's dipped a little bit, does that therefore mean that Tadhg Beirne dipped? And I'm not sure if it does. No, because some people want Tadhg Beirne at six, which again is an an option. Yeah. So for me, I'd probably still go burn. I might, but I've nar on it. You might go, I can see him going, James Ryan.

But that doesn't, that doesn't excite me as a selection. 

Carl: I think James Ryan probably compliments the Mario [00:27:00] Togi. Selection. I think they would work very well together around the breakdown and, and, and carry in will work pretty well. Them two together. So yeah, that'd be a, a really interesting mix. Ollie Chesham, as you say, will be there all thereabouts.

He seems to manage it for England and he's, he's, he's, he's still only 24, which is just mad. He looked so old. I thought I looked old, but like Ollie Chesham is like, he's, he's, uh, he's, he's looking an old boy at early, early doors already. So fair play to him. But it'd be good to see Joe McCarthy and Chesham in one of the, the midweek tours playing together on the second, in the, in that second row as well.

That'd a really interesting mix to, to see how people, 'cause Joe McCarthy's not a small led either, is he? Oh no. Oh no. So that'd be a really interesting one to see. But yeah, I, I think it's gonna be James Ryan. I told you, I think that's the perfect mix. Leaving the [00:28:00] option for burns are slot in, in the back row if, if required depending on the one.

Yeah. You have to have to bear in 

Huw Griffin: mind as well that it's probably, and at least one test gonna be a six two split. So I would imagine one out and out. Lock one, lock six hybrid, and one. Seven on the bench is what that'll turn into. 

Carl: I know you've got Ben O who can play 12 as well. 

Huw Griffin: He actually was by the end of the Six Nations as 

Carl: well.

He did. He did. Yeah, he did. It's, uh, it's, it is coming What, what Eddie Jones called. I. However, many years ago is, uh, is finally coming through Jack Noll, playing flanker or whatever again. Yeah, the back row. Then we've got Jack Conan, Tom Curry, Benno, Jack Morgan, Henry Pollock. Josh Vander Flir, let's discuss 

Huw Griffin: only one eight.

Um, that's the main thing. So it's Jack Conan or, or nothing. And if it turns out to be Ben Earl, I and I, I, I make no secret of the fact I think Ben [00:29:00] Earl is a, is a Openside Franco Cosplaying as an eight. He's, he's a, he's a seven for me. So what we're probably gonna see in at least one test is dual open sides, which is interesting.

Hmm. Because, uh, and Henry Pollock's the same as he. I think based on what I've seen, he seems to be a, a seven more than an eight. The what if they do go dual open size, how that's gonna work against Joe Schmidt, who's the breakdown is his specialty, and then the, it becomes a question of the line out. 'cause you, you're lacking in line out jumpers there.

Now Tom Curry ended up jumping for line outs for England and the Six Nations and it went okay. It is it, so this is a kind of stat that I was looking at lately, is that we're seeing more line outs in the game now than we ever have. I think there was something like 80 more line outs in the six nations this year than last year.

But line out [00:30:00] steels halved, it went from 25 odds 10 years ago to now a dozen across, across the whole six nations. So like less than one line out stealer game on average. But did that match? But does 

Carl: includes, did that include the penalties against, so they didn't even have to steal if they challenged, if they, I'm, 

Huw Griffin: I'm talking pure 

Carl: steals, actual robberies.

Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. 

Huw Griffin: Which is interesting 'cause the line outs are coming more important. There's more of them, but line out steals are going down. Which is what? Which is the opposite of what you think because you think that everyone would know that line outs are really important. So everyone would try and steal them more.

And the, the club size that we're seeing around that steal a lot of line out ball tend to be the ones that are doing quite well at the moment. Mm-hmm. So it's bizarre. And I islands, I know it, I know it's the Scotland Forwards coach who's been picked as the forwards coach for the Lions, which is, I, I suspect there's a big handed Scott Cummings getting picked.

Yeah. Which says how much stock he's got in the bank because [00:31:00] he didn't play in the Six Nations, but Islands just threw everything to the front in the Six Nations. It was front, front, front, front, front, win the ball, win the ball, win the ball, and all, all of the Six nations teams really were quite front heavy.

Whereas if you look down at super rugby with the Australian side of the moment, they're very willing to go to the back in the middle. 

Yeah. 

So I just wonder whether the line out is something that they've sacrificed a little bit. They've just gone, let's get some safe ball off the front, off one or two genuine line out options in the, in the pack.

And then did create opportunities from other wear, which I think is very safe. Very safe. 

Carl: Yeah. Well, obviously I to you's gonna be the one of, one of them going up easy and he so he is gonna be there or thereabouts. Is 

Huw Griffin: he gonna be the caller though? 'cause a lot of teams don't like having the captain and the line out caller being the same guy.

Carl: Well, if you, if you're playing it's safe. They, they want their best, their best jumper, surely. And like as you said, he's [00:32:00] anyone there apart from potentially Chessum at times, but he's got a mistake. Joe McCarthy, before the Six Nations would've been, he seemed to catch everything, I think I told you, leads the line and leads, leads as captain, I think in the, in the test.

I think that's how they're gonna guide it forward is sort of up the jumper. Get the platform and try and let the backs play a little bit maybe, or try and get it out into the back row and expect maybe they're, they're expecting the back row to run a little bit more. One, the likes of Ben, Ben El, Tom Curry, Jack, Morgan Pollock, all of these guys to actually carry more, rather than having to worry about the breakdown all the time, leave that ice it.

Let's just try and keep going. And when Van Vander Flir comes on, he can carry as well and, and also cause carnage at the breakdown when he gets the opportunity or leave that job to the, to the locks and then sort of put, try and put them in as the first, first option to carry the ball through. I don't, there must be a game plan to it.

As you [00:33:00] said, you can't keep playing. A safe line out without another option on the outside of it. Maybe they've got a trick play where it's gonna come down and they're gonna run through the middle or something like that. They've been watching too much. YouTube 

Huw Griffin: maybe. Maybe. But I think, uh, if, look, if I've noticed this, Joe Schmitz noticed it and he's a lot, you know, is a lot more our rugby than I do.

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. Be uh, be interesting. But I think before we move on to the backs, let's pick the starting test forward pack. Okay. So for me, she in to start at Hooker, I think we are gonna have to probably go based on the names that are there and injuries. It's gonna have to be Will Stewart at Tight Head. And then for me, Schumann to start.

We're then gonna have Aji and Ryan at eight. Is I, I [00:34:00] can't look past Conan. And then I think we are gonna see Van der Flier and Ben Earl probably starting and probably Van der Flier pushed to six and Earl and seven. 

Huw Griffin: That'll be interesting 'cause Van der Flier has never worn the number six in his career. 

Carl: Mm. I don't think you could, I don't think you can miss out unless he doesn't start in and, and Jack Morgan gets put in and they go completely and then Van Ale comes off the bench.

Yeah. If you 

Huw Griffin: go, if you go Earl and Jack Morgan, that's a small back row. So that, when I was saying about Dewey Lake walk past me, the thing about, I think this tour is gonna be the furthest that Dey Lake and Jack Morgan have ever been away from each other. They are like joined at the hip 

Carl: and maybe Dewey's actually flying with him.

He is just, 

Huw Griffin: well, like when one's injured, the other one's injured is amazing. But when Dewey Lake walked past me, Jack Morgan walked past me not long after. And however, whatever size that you think [00:35:00] Jack Morgan is, it's 80% of that. If you look up his size on the internet. 

Mm. 

It's, it's not that he's a small guy.

So if you're talking Bernell and Jack Morgan as your thinkers. That is a small flank pairing that, and I know they pack a punch. I know they're very active around the pitch and things, but you know, height if, if nothing else is an advantage at times. And I think having both, I know Conan's a big man, 

I. But 

then if you've got, if you've got a second row pairing of Aian type burn, for instance, they're not particularly big for locks either.

I know. Compared to normal mortal human beings, they're massive. 

Yeah. But 

for international locks, they're not especially big. So a small back five. And you'd think that like a natural advantage the alliance should have over Australia would be a beefy pack. Mm. So maybe that's just playing into stereotypes, [00:36:00] but, so I, I, I, for me, I'd go a hybrid at six.

So I probably go it oji, burn chessum at six. And then, because I'm biased, I'll go Jack Morgan at seven. Then Conan eight 'cause there's nobody else 

Carl: front row. 

Huw Griffin: Um, if he's fit, Zander Ferguson and then Dan Sheehan, head and shoulders and then Porter to star and then Genge off the bench. 

Carl: Yeah. Good shout. It'd be interesting 'cause as you say, you are over gonna go for a mobile back five.

And try and win as much as you can around, get the Aussie run, the Aussies off the park. Right. I think the Aussies 

Huw Griffin: would love that though. I think that's what I'm about. Exactly. 

Carl: You've, you've either gotta play and match the same game and just try and do that and make sure you're, you're quicker than a, which is gonna be hard to start with.

Like, as you said though, a year ago, this was nailed on. It was an easy win for the lines. Like the Aussies were dog shit, weren't they? And now, yeah. This has probably become a very difficult whales played 

Huw Griffin: them into [00:37:00] form. Yeah. As 

Carl: al as always. Well, we're about about, probably about to start Japan's revival as well with world rugby as well, so, but Right.

I think, I think, yeah, it's, it's. They must have a plan and that's why we're not picking the lions tall. So it could, so who's gonna get the ball out the back of the back out of this, uh, the scrum or breakdown? So we've got the option of Jameson Gibson Park, Alex Mitchell, and Thomas. Thomas Williams. 

Huw Griffin: This seems to be the jersey that's dividing opinion the most because that I think there was four contenders, well, obviously there's four nations and mm-hmm.

And each one had a clear contender. And everyone that I spoke to had a different three out of the four. There seems to be a bit like I've spoken about other players. There seems to be a bit of a narrative building that James and Gibson Park is playing badly or that he's, his forms dipped or he was never that good in the first place.

Carl: Oh, come off it like he is, he [00:38:00] is very good. Like, I don't think, I think there's an element of, he's not as amazing as everyone, but he, he's very, very good and he pulls the strings. Of that Irish side. He's at Lester, isn't he? So yes. That's not his fault that they can't win anything that, that's just the Lester way.

They're just, they're, they are the bridesmaid bridesmaid to everything now, aren't they? They just can't win nothing. It's simple as that. So I, I think Alex Mitchell. Is more exciting off the bench. I don't see enough of Thomas Williams to probably call it any other, but I think he's a similar ilk, very sort of Danny Care esque from what I've seen.

Very quick round of breakdown and sort of front foot forward. Is that a fair assessment of him or? 

Huw Griffin: So he's just been named Premiership player of the season, which is quite funny 'cause I, um, I don't think he was any better for Costa than he was for Cardiff. I just think that the shape of the Premiership suited him.

I did a deep dive on Scrum Half stats during the Six [00:39:00] Nations, and it was fascinating to me that Jameson Gibson's Park, if you, if you plot it on like a spider graph, mm, Jameson Gibson Park's graph and Thomas Williams's graph were exactly the same shape. They share very similar strengths. Now they're not the same player.

I think probably Gibson Parks kicking is better, although interesting. Ireland primarily kick off 10, which is interesting. I think Thomas Williams is probably, oh, and Gibson Park's defense is a lot better than Thomas is. Thomas Williams is, he's not a man for a one-on-one tackle, but we'll come onto that in bigger case in a second.

The, um, I think Thomas Williams is better one-on-one balling hand broken play. So I, a lot of people didn't think that Thomas Williams would go, I never, it was never in doubt for me that you would go. IG I've gotta be honest, I'm just gonna be honest. I don't rate Alex Mitchell. I don't think he's very good at all.

I think I would've taken Ben White over him. Now I can see that Babe Ben White maybe has got availability issues playing out in [00:40:00] France in too long and he is not first choice for his club side. 'cause Baptist Sarah is there. 

Carl: Yeah, 

Huw Griffin: but 

Carl: not first choice for Scotland either at times. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. But yeah, I think he had a very good Six Nations and Alex Mitchell.

Bo targeted him in the Champions Cup final and they found him and they got a, a lot of change out of him. Yeah. And the way he defends versus how Gibson Park defends, the way that Alex Mitchell defends is go on the wing, go in the backfield and avoid making tackles at, at all costs. And we saw that against Irelands, James Lowe found him.

Yeah. And try time, you know, 

Carl: turn Turnstiled. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. So for, for me, I wouldn't have taken Alex Mitchell. I'm just being honest. Um. But you know, there I've been, that I've been that wrong enough already. Then maybe he's, um, he, he's, he's in there. But like I said, I think Maxim, Luke, Maxim Lucus showed him the levels in the Champions Cup final.

So, yeah. Um, I'm not, if it was me, I would have Gibson Park starting and Thomas Williams off the bench. [00:41:00] 

Carl: Yeah. I think Gibson Park starts every day of the week there, and then it's just whether Alex Mitchell can stay fit for me. I, I, I think there's always that worry of him. A getting a knock, it'd be, it'd be exciting to see.

'cause from the bits that I have seen of Thomas Williams, he is willing to take that chance and spot the gap. And it is exactly the same as, as Mitchell in my eyes, in that he's willing to take that opportunity. But it's the other bits around the part that we discussed about that might make that decision a little bit easier for, uh, for them.

So we, we agree Gibson part then? Yeah. Yeah. To, uh, to start. Fly off. Finn Russell, Finn Smith, and then Marcus Smith. 

Huw Griffin: I'm shocked that Marcus Smith is going and I think that says a a lot about what the other options were. I think Andy Farrow would've loved to have taken Sam Prendergast, but he's just been found that he's not ready.

No. 

And for whatever reason, they don't like Jack Crowley. [00:42:00] There was no option from Wales to take. There was no contender. No. So I think there too much 

Carl: noise around Jack Crowley potentially going to France as well. So I think he was kind of out favoring Ireland as at the time, and yeah, wasn't, but then obviously he goes and does what he does again, the film Ister and stuff, and 

Huw Griffin: yeah.

I think England looks so much better since Finn Smith has coming to 10th than they ever looked with Marcus. I think they, I think he's already in three tests, done a better job in the 10 jersey than Marcus Smith ever did for England. Marcus Smith was always about the Marcus Smith show, whereas Finn Smith is all about the England show, and I think that works for them.

The, and if God, if we see Marcus Smith in the 15 jersey for the Lions we're in trouble. He is not a fallback. He's not a fallback any day of the week. If you go back and you watch. England versus Italy, a Twickingham, the six nations. In the first half, Italy puts three high balls up on him in a row and he loses all three, and [00:43:00] then he got defensively is he doesn't know how to set his feet when he is the last defender.

He doesn't, he get always gets in the wrong positions. He gets his body angle wrong. He's on his heels. 

Carl: I'll give him his due. His tackling has improved 'cause there was a time that he was just a turns star. He is wor he was. He was on par with Ramos. Ramos is literally at 10. A human turnstile. Um. But can kick forever.

So it's easy for him to be picked for France. But I'll give Marcus Smith his due. What he, he has improved a lot in what was lacking. I, I agree. He is not a fallback. He, he has that X factor that just, I think in a tiring game opens up so many opportunities, which works really well with Finn Smith starting the game because he is.

He's bigger than obviously Marcus Smith as well, and he can carry himself a little bit more. And then the [00:44:00] open field, broken field potentially opens the door. But you've then got the wizard that is Finn Finn Russell. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. Finn Finn. Russell's another player where kind of a narrative started going around that he was playing badly and he wasn't, he's not playing badly at all.

And he's, he's about to guide Bath to the Premiership title. Yeah. And he's been Scotland's pretty much best player forever. However long. So for me it's, it's Fin Russell all day long. 

Carl: Oh. I agree. It depends on the game for me. So I think whether he starts Finn Russell and then brings Finn Smith on, or whether Finn Smith starts and then Finn Russell comes on, I think it depends on how, on what gameplay they want to go and potentially how maybe the game, the game in the lead up have gone with that formation.

I think so. But I would say probably first Tess gonna be Finn Russell. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. 

Carl: As well outside then? Well, yeah. So centers, we've got Bundy, AKI, Hugh Jones, Gary Ringrose. Cone. [00:45:00] Tui Atu. Yeah, that's it. We got the four centers. Aki Jones. Ring Rose and two Pilate. 

Huw Griffin: So I'm a, I'm a, I'm a student of the school of thought.

That is, you pick centers as a partnership, not individually. 

Yeah. 

So you've got an Irish partnership there. You've got a Scottish partnership there. Now. The Scottish partnership has had availability issues. Hugh Jones is currently injured. SOS only two. Pilates only. Just back from injury. 

Mm-hmm. 

However, I think right now, as we speak here now today in June, 2025.

I think the Scotland duo is better. I think the Scotland now, I love Bundy, aki, and if you can have Bundy Aki off the bench, I'm here all day for that. He's my favorite island player by a long way. But I think Tua Pio and Hugh Jones are the premium center partnership in Britain Island at the moment. And if you go in Finn Russell ahead of them, it makes a decision even easier [00:46:00] 

Carl: based on partnerships.

Huw Griffin: Yeah, 

Carl: I completely agree. But. I would love to see Bundy, AKI and Hugh Jones as a partnership and just see how that can catch fire. Ring Rose has never reached the potential that he could or should have been at. I thought he was gonna come on the work on the scene and just blow it apart. He hasn't, he hasn't reached that.

I think he's lucky to have made it on this Lion's tour potentially. I think that's been based on partnerships rather than probably performance there. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. And it's funny that Robbie Henshaw hasn't made it and he can play 12 and 13. Yeah. And you think if you're only taking four, do you not need a man?

You can, I know buddy Aki can as well, but why not have that extra security blanket and is Gary Ringrose that much better than Robbie Henshaw? 

Carl: Not, not on recent form. And then don't forget, you've got Elliot Daley who can literally is the Swiss Army knife of rugby who can play [00:47:00] pretty much everywhere. Um, so for me, I would love to see Bundy, AKI and Hugh Jones start that first test together, but I can see it.

And that that's, 

Huw Griffin: that's the one to watch in the buildup games. What combinations of playing to get each other with each other in the sense, yeah, because if we start seeing on the Saturday games, there's a partnership that keeps getting picked together, that's the best partnership. 

Carl: Yeah, agreed. We have then got the on the wing, we've got Tommy Freeman, Mac Hanson, James Lowe, and Doan.

Vander Mur. 

Huw Griffin: It will be James Lowe. He, he's not fast, but his, his left boot is cheat code. Every time I, one of my teams plays against him, I'm like, what the heck do you do about this boot that he's got? He's just gonna turn you all day long, and that's gonna be a vital part of the Lions game plan. On the other wing.

Now Doan, Vander MVA [00:48:00] is a left wing as James Lowe is. So do you say we're not gonna move him over? 

Carl: I think on current form you can't look past Tommy Freeman. 

Huw Griffin: I agree that's That's where I was going to, I think James Lowe and Tommy Freeman are the two 

Carl: Mac Hanson as well. Exciting but injured 

Huw Griffin: out of 

Carl: form. I think Tommy Freeman and Van der Merwe

Huw Griffin: That's a more exciting partnership. A pair of wingers, to be honest. Yeah. That that's one where if you are, if you are Australia, 'cause if when James Lowe gets the ball in his own half, if you're Australia, you're like, let's go back and cover the kick. Yeah. He's not right. He's e even even up to the 10 meter line.

Whereas if one of those two gets the ball, you're like, you're on your, you're on your heels, you're on, you're on the back foot, you're thinking. Where's my inside band? Where's my outside man? What do I need to do? Because he could take me on here. James Lowen gonna do that. 

Carl: No. And also, if I ever pick him in my dream team, he ain't getting any points.

So he's, he's [00:49:00] always done me a dirty, so I think I've, I've probably got, I've probably got more of a vendetta against him than actually his ability. Um, I think it's 'cause he's done me so many dirty times on, uh, on, on, on fantasy rugby. Um. Fallback then. Elliot Daley, Hugo Keenan or Blair Kinghorn 

Huw Griffin: can't be.

Elliot 

Daley 

come on in 2025. Uh, if he's fit. 'cause he's currently injured as well, Blair Kinghorn all day long. 

Carl: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, I was about to say he is currently with his leg up in the air, wouldn't he? So yeah, that's, yeah. So, so we've gone all the way from Sheehan. You, you've called for Ferguson and Porter.

We've got, you've gone Tadhg Beirne, Itoje and Chesham with Jack Morgan on one side and Jack Coan at eight. Uh, Gibson Park at nine [00:50:00] Fin Russell at 10. You were going for the Scottish partnership for starting, weren't you? Yep. For presenters. So Hugh Jones and UA Pal Freeman on one side, James Lowe on the other, and Blair Kingham for your starting lions test.

Huw Griffin: Why Scottish heavy, especially in the backs. 

Carl: Well, that's the thing though. They have been. Probably the most exciting at times. Apart from it when England turned it on in a couple of little bits, I think the, the most consistent bat line has been the Scottish bat line there. Yeah. I think Blair King Horns probably also a good shoe into be able to.in at 10 if needed.

He can. Mm-hmm. He's so versatile as well, and he's, he's literally another. A better version of Elliot Daley, to be fair. But he's, um, there's, I'm just looking through the list [00:51:00] again. There's only 10 players that have been previously capped by the lines on this tour. 

Huw Griffin: That's supposedly one of the big theories about why Elliot Daley's gone.

'cause I don't think anyone could argue that Elliot Daley's in the top 10 back 3D players in Britain and Ireland at the moment. But he's been a Lyons player. This is his third tour. Fourth or 

Carl: third? Fifth. Fifth. Fifth cap. He's, he's got five caps. So yeah, third, third tour. He's probably been around on third tour.

Yeah. So yeah. Van Van's had three caps. Bundy AKIs had one. Finn Russell's had one. Tom Curry's had three. Conan's had three toy's, had six. Ty Burn's had two, furlongs had six, and Cow and Dickies had three. So they've tried to pick one previously. Capped. Lying in every position by the looks of it. 

Huw Griffin: Mm-hmm.

Carl: Yeah. Apart from, apart from fly off. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. So. Yeah. Sorry. Scrum off. Scrum off. Not fly off. Sorry. In, in the backs there is a lack of [00:52:00] lion's experience, although, I dunno how, how someone would have to tell me how much is Lion's experience really important 

Carl: because it's a team that's every, every four years.

Huw Griffin: Yeah. It's a, it's a team that's never played together anyway. No. And. Uh, what, what is it that I would love someone to tell me? What is it that you need to know? Is it just the playing a game every three or four days that you need some experience of that? Is it, is it just characters? You know, you need to be able to bond.

You can't afford to have players fall out. You can't afford to not have the group gel, so you need someone in there to be the, the WD 40 socially. I don't know. I just don't know. But the, that's supposedly why Elliot Daley has been picked is because there's a lack of lions experience. Elsewhere. Although, you know, Lee Hoffen is an experienced lion, he's not going like, yeah.

And of course you wouldn't pick him 'cause he's not in the form that deserves to go. But he's Elliot Daily. Really? 

Carl: Again, six [00:53:00] Nations wasn't too bad, was it? I think again, it's, I think it's probably his versatility's taken him, once again, he, he can play in multiple positions and provide injury cover and.

He adds that element of, of previous tour experience. That would be interesting to, to see how many of these actually make it to the first test as well. Whether any injuries arise. Yeah. The players have to drop out. I think we're gonna have to talk about the Henry Pollock and Jack Morgan inclusion as well, and the, and the effect for two very young players.

Jack Morgan probably gonna be another Sergio Parise style player. Obviously I've heard that 

Huw Griffin: before. He's someone when, when someone first said that to me, he is like, you know, Jack Morgan's your Sergio Parise. It was like, oh, I see how that's where we are. Is it like, um, but no, he's been in unbelievable form for two years, two, three years now.

He had that, he had 

Carl: that [00:54:00] injury that sort of had the blip on his, on, on in the middle, didn't he? But, 

Huw Griffin: but he's fully deserving, ongoing, fully, fully, fully deserving, ongoing. And then you've got, with Henry Pollock is a bit of an unknown. It's a bit of an unknown. No unknown, isn't it? Is it that? 'cause if you, it is funny.

If you look back on Lyon's tour, if you look on back on Lions test teams, you'll see players in there and you go, bloody hell, he hasn't done anything before or since. Yeah. So I'm not saying that's what Pollock is gonna do. It could be that he, it's like the ultimate flash in the pan. It could be that we don't know yet.

I'm not saying that that's what I want to happen, that he'll have to, we'll just have to see how he goes on the tour games. Mm-hmm. Because he's gonna be playing against the Australians in the, in the binge juice games. 

Yeah. 

The A style that suits him. So he's a hundred percent getting a. 56 me meter run and try at some point.

Yeah. 

Like he's, he's definitely scoring tries on the tour. So is he just gonna putting together, put together a form that's unassailable and you have to play [00:55:00] him? 

Carl: I, I think Jack Morgan's probably been juice captain for me. I, I, I, I don't, I don't think he can not be included in that sort of level. Um. I think he gets onto the bench at a bare minimum in the tests.

Huw Griffin: Mm-hmm. 

Carl: And I think the Henry Pollock effect continues, mate. I think the excitement around him within the media as well will also potentially carry him into test inclusion. 

Huw Griffin: Yeah. 

Carl: He's an extremely talented lad, but he can't be put at eight again, especially in a Champion's Cup final. Paul lad's trying against the, that Bordea team, and I think the Aussies will find him out pretty quickly if they, uh, have that opportunity at eight gone in.

We'll finish on the note of what is. Test scores gonna be what's what, what, what are we gonna win by 

Huw Griffin: you've, you've planted in my head now that the second test is obviously the massive one in the a hundred [00:56:00] thousand seater, and it could be a test. Well, uh, it's absolutely got a, because of a nature of three test tool.

The second test is a decider, at least in, in the medium term. I think the lions win the first test by 12. I think they win the second test by three and then I think they lose the third test because the series will be safe and so they'll rotate. 

Carl: Oh, I think we've got a repeat of New Zealand coming on. I think we've got a, the first win at the feet at the MCG by three, I reckon we lose by three and I think we draw the last oof.

I think that MCG crowd's just gonna be too much. 

Huw Griffin: It's clever scheduling, isn't it? From the, the schedulers to put the, the most important game, which is the second game. Yeah. In the biggest stadium. 

Carl: I, yeah. I think we lose that by a very narrow margin. I think the crowd's gonna be too much for that. I think the first test we should be [00:57:00] solid and then I think, yeah.

I dunno. I've just got a feeling it's gonna be. One. One. One. That's right before you probably set 

Huw Griffin: that for the books, wouldn't it? I'll tell you what, if it is that, you know, and maybe this just like to, to kind of close on this point, the lions feels like, it feels, it falls between two stools for me. 'cause I feel like it's, you've got this whole, it's supposed to be the pinnacle of like the best of the best of the best.

And therefore winning is everything. But then it's also got this throwback amateur thing about it as well and it's like, well, which is it then? It can't be both. Then you've got this thing of you're touring the same three nations over and over again, and you're playing against club sides. That's not how you preview.

You're the best in the world. So I just feel like the, the lions doesn't really, it doesn't have a set. This is what the lions is, other than just making a load of dos for whatever country hosts. 

Carl: That's a, that's a bombshell to end on there. Hug for everyone that hasn't already started following you, mate.

[00:58:00] For more bombshells like that, where can they find you? 

Huw Griffin: Uh, HG Rugby Anywhere. Um, Twitter, TikTok, blue Sky. And most importantly, YouTube, also podcasts as well. Just H letter, H, G, letter G for Huw Griffin and rugby. That's where you can find me. 

Carl: Huw been a pleasure, mate, as always. Great to, great to catch up with you all about rugby, as, as always, and for everyone.

I. That has, uh, joined us and enjoyed it. Please make sure you like, follow, comment, subscribe, join, join our pod, join Huw's Pod. There's plenty more rugby to come around. There's plenty more to watch. Uh, thank you and goodbye.