Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 7 - Ben Herring Interview

Rugby Legend Ben Herring Discusses Coaching, Culture, and Global Experiences | Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast

In this episode of Rugby Through the Leagues, we welcome the extraordinary Ben Herring, renowned for his Coaching Culture podcast. Ben shares his remarkable journey from professional rugby player to globe-trotting coach. He delves into his unique experiences coaching international teams in Japan and Canada, emphasizing the importance of cultural awareness and adaptability. Ben and host Carl discuss the impact of rugby values, the necessity of resilience, and the role of family support in a coaching career. Ben also provides insights into his podcast and offers invaluable advice to young coaches. Don’t miss this in-depth conversation filled with personal anecdotes, professional wisdom, and plenty of rugby passion. Stay tuned for future episodes featuring top rugby professionals!

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:39 Ben Herring's Rugby Journey
01:33 Family Adventures Around the World
02:57 Early Rugby Days and Grassroots
05:50 Professional Rugby Career Highlights
13:00 Coaching Beginnings and Philosophy
15:31 Cultural Challenges in Japan
25:26 Support System and Family Life
30:02 Balancing Life in a New Culture
30:50 Building Connections with Fellow Coaches
31:44 Starting the Podcast Journey
32:47 The Mission Behind the Podcast
37:06 The Importance of Rugby Values
46:33 Concussion Awareness and Rugby
53:34 Advice for Young Coaches
59:08 Promoting the Podcast and Future Guests

Transcript

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This week we have managed to get Ben Herring on who's tearing up the podcast world at the minute with his Coaching Culture podcast. I can't believe the list of guests he's got and how I've managed to get him on here . We do not know, but we'll find out.

Ben, for those that aren't aware of who you are and what you're doing, can we, uh, share, share a bit of, uh, your past and how the hell you've managed to get all these guests on? Because you've done something special with there, mate, to be fair. Oh, well, 

Ben Herring: what a pleasure to be on, mate.

It's, it's always lovely to, um, chat to people about rugby and this sort of stuff, so it's really nice. Mate, Carl, um, my background mate is, I, uh, I, I played professional rugby for a number of years, and I, and then I became essentially a. Coaching nomad and just floated round various teams over the world.

Uh, international teams, um, professional teams, company teams in Japan, international teams with Canada and Japan, Toyota, Otago, [00:01:00] Highlanders, Sunwolves. And I just, I've just been on this jaunt mate where Wow. My wife said to me from a very early start in rugby coaching, she said until the, our youngest kid is at primary school, mate, fill your boots.

Yeah. And we doesn't, she was happy to travel and so I've been privileged enough to be able to tour the world mate. Um, getting these amazing coaching opportunities and, and embracing them every couple of years. Make a big point to change and, and grow and learn. And it's been, it's been wonderful mate. And the podcast is just an extension of that now.

Um, and just keeping for people I coach with along the way. 

Carl: Amazing. So you've, you've been able to sort of travel with the family, take the family with you while you're, uh, while, while you're on the journeys? Or have you sort of been able to let them grow up and you come back ready when, when you need to?

No, 

Ben Herring: we, we've got four kids born in all different continents and, um, we've, we've Wow. Taken 'em everywhere we've been mate. So it's, um, that's been the joy. Two, two of the middle ones speak, um, speak pretty good Japanese that my daughter who's 11 is Oh wow. Is pretty fluent. [00:02:00] Um, we, we just made a point wherever we went, we would throw the kids into whatever local schooling we would do.

And so yeah, that's been amazing in terms of, uh, what an experience the kids have had. Whilst I've had all these awesome coaching and rugby journeys, they've been, uh, not all, not all super happy. You know, something that's quite tough going when you get thrown into is the only blond haired blue eye kid in the whole school, um, making a language, you don't know.

Uh, but they've, they've come through the other side, outstanding and pretty resilient to change. So it's been a, it's been a great experience. 

Carl: My, my boys have done the same, moving to Spain. They kind of went straight into Spanish school and it's a sink or swim situation for 'em, and they've, uh, they're coming out the other side.

They learn Valenciano as well, which is the regional dialect as well as mainland Spanish, so Oh, 

Ben Herring: awesome. 

Carl: Yeah. That's great, isn't it? Kids are a lot more a beautiful trait they have for 

Ben Herring: the kids, right? Like, they'll thank you for it. Hundred percent. 

Carl: Yeah. You, you'd hope so. I, they realize it at a time how lucky they are, but it's, uh, it's one of them.

Yeah. So obviously how did, how did your rugby journey [00:03:00] start? 'cause you've, uh, you've obviously played a little, a little way around the world you've now coached. Where did, where did it all start at grassroots? Where was your first club? How did you fall in love with the game? 

Ben Herring: Look, I went to, I went to a big, uh, traditional rugby school in New Zealand called Auckland Grammar School, which, um, was a big public school.

Yeah. But, um, I never made any top teams. I was always in the B'S or C's all the way through, always too little. Um, I think I, I made the second 15, which is the highest team I ever made at school. And then mate, I think that I always reflect on that time period has actually taught me a lot about myself.

When you play for those, um, teams, which don't do any well, that they've just got the teachers there that just have to be there. The school makes you coach a team in the winter and when you're getting down to the sea teams, you generally got the teachers who are happy to have the early starts just to get it done.

But they were wonderful, wonderful coaches in terms of, they never, they never killed my love for the game. In fact, they always. They didn't coach me any rugby, but they certainly kept the fire alive, mate. I, I, I left. Um, when [00:04:00] I left school I went over to Ireland for a year just with some mates over there and we just pretty much drank every day for, um, it felt like a year I was working in a bar called the Old Stand in, in, um, Mullingar and Island.

And every time I finished at five o'clock, the whole rugby team that I was playing for Mullingar, RFC, would be in the bar at five and i'd have pints lined up and hell of a time, great times, but, um, ended up getting scurvy. Would you believe Carl? So 

Carl: probably 'cause no vitamin C in Guinness most of the time

Is there.

Ben Herring: Chicken burgers and that was about the only, the lettuce in those was the only green or colour we got in a whole year. So mum was getting worried about me, so she enrolled me at Otago Uni and she rung me up. Yeah, the, the, it already started and she said, look, I. Your grades were good enough. You got into PE school, I think that's probably wise.

You come back and I had no intention of coming back particularly, so I just was sick of these, my scurvy hands. So I was like, yeah, mum, you're [00:05:00] probably right on this one. Yeah, I'll probably take your advice here. And um, I went back, played for in, in Otago and I played for a club called Alhambra-Union which, uh, fantastic club right in student ville.

Amazing people. Some, some old legends like Gary Wheeler. Um, and it was just grassroots rugby. I went to that club because it was close, I could walk to it. And it was a great student, student, student friendly club, meaning the old boys made sure there was lots of jugs on the tables in those days after games and yeah, made it super fun to be part of.

And yeah, the, the, the managers and the, the old heads at the club were just super supportive of, of me. By that stage. I just started to, I got a little bit bigger. I was probably 80 kilos then playing at Premier Grade. And just played. Had a couple of really good seasons there mate. And, um, a place down Southland came, came looking, which is the provincial union down there and mm-hmm they said, why don't you come down here to the even [00:06:00] colder part of New Zealand and, and, and have your crack at MPC when I was about 21 years of old.

Old. So I did that and just flew on from there. Had a couple of good games, couple of good seasons, and then got picked up by the highlanders and hurricanes and bashed myself about enough that my knee blew out. So I had to go somewhere a bit slower. So I got picked up by Leicester, uh, tigers in the uk and.

Nice. Then I ended up knocking myself out too many times and had to call it quits. And that was, that was the end of my playing career. It was good fun. I, I didn't think I'd make it to 30 and I didn't, um, I always knew when I started it professionally at 21, I was like, gee, if I ever make it to 30, I'll man, someone's smiling at me.

So I made it to 29, which is as close as I could have got. I reckon 

Carl: that was, uh, that was probably fairly common in the Lester Tigers team just getting knocked out. That was probably just training most of the time, wasn't it? With, with some of the players back then as well? Well, there was a huge 

Ben Herring: sign in the gym, which said, and massive letters, we run through 'em, not round them.

And that was the, and for a little number [00:07:00] seven who, um, couldn't run over anybody. That was the most, uh uh, I was like, Ugh, gee. Right. I know how this is gonna go in a couple years time. 

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. That was, uh, yeah, I can imagine that was a good fun though. 'cause obviously that was probably during Heineken Cup success around that sort of period.

Couple of Premier League titles around then as well. Yeah, that 

Ben Herring: was probably right at the end of sort of the glory days. I just got the back end of that where we, we were winning pretty much everything. The seasons were enormous 'cause we're in every single final, um, great bunch of lads. Um, you know, absolute legends still at the club.

Uh, guys like Ben Kay, Martin Cory, George Shooter, Julian White. Um, just, just the, the, the guys that were, you know, the, the legends of Leicester were still there influencing the culture in a fantastic way. And all the, all the new guys like myself just, yeah, you just bought into it straight away. 'cause these guys were just so awesome that it just, you just, you just join the Lester Way, which is very tough, mate.

Like, um, [00:08:00] I'd never experienced anything like it. I, I'd used to used to sort of fast running rugby and things like that, and this was not that, but it was, it was something equally impressive the other way. It was tough. It was, yeah, muscular. It was brutal. Um, but gee, we played good rugby. 

Carl: Yeah, I had, um, Simon Middleton on previously on a, on a previous pod a couple of weeks ago.

And he, um, he said obviously he trained with a lot of, a lot of the lads through that period as well and knew, obviously he'd come across from the rugby league stuff. And it was just very, uncompromising was probably that easiest word to use for the whole of rugby at that time because there was no backward step.

You just got taught you, as you said, if the letters are there, you've gotta run through 'em. You've got, if you, if you went to training the next day, you had no choice 'cause you get called up on it, wouldn't you? And you, that's just life in rugby. But now it's done slightly differently. You got more worried about trying to avoid a attack now rather than running straight into it and, you know, no, 

Ben Herring: you couldn't avoid it back then.

You were, [00:09:00] uh. You had to tape up. Yeah, we actually had to, I had to drug up more for trainings than games. Like, just to get through them sometimes. Really? Mondays and Tuesdays were, I think Lester had some crazy stat, like they had 25% more training injuries than the next team. But it did toughen you up for sure.

Carl: So was it literally just some days you, there'd just be a, a scrap breakout or just everyone was just full on just a hundred, 150% in training and then whatever, a hundred percent of the game would be easy compared to what training is. Is it one of those old school analogies? It was real old 

Ben Herring: school like that.

There was fights. Every training for sure was that. And there was this real mentality of that Tuesday, uh, it was a two hour line out session on a Tuesday, which was ling and Yeah, and just post quarter stuff and the team would be announced and the second team was. Rolled up to like take your guy out 'cause then you're in.

And that was encouraged. So you had to be on, if you were starting, 'cause you know that the opposite, um, was coming from your [00:10:00] knees or will fill you in. So it was one of those environments. Um, but then as soon as it stopped, it was brilliant. Like it was all just what was done. Like no one held any grudges or anything like that.

Yeah, it was just, you'd see fights break out, full fist fights and then no one would get in there. It would finish and then the two fellows would just sort shrug and Yeah, righto next line out and they'd go to it. It's cool in that regard. It was everything rugby should be. 

Carl: Yeah. But when you, when you first landed and probably first saw that, you've probably thought, what the fuck have I signed up to?

Is that kind of the, the first mentality or you were like, right, this is me. I mean, well, I'll tell you one story I've told. Well 

Ben Herring: I mentioned this one a lot. One of my first trainings, we did this close quarter drill in the five meter channel and as one pack versus the other pack. And you two guys get called out and Richard Cockle throws one of the ball.

And, uh, you're supposed to go straight into 'em and then three seconds later each pack joins and just becomes like a mo uh, until you score. Yeah. About two meters away. And my first one is, um, I stepped them, I stepped [00:11:00] Lewis Deacon, who is a great player and, and scored really quickly. And I was quite happy with myself.

And then, and cus said, mate, we don't do that here. We don't go, we don't, we don't steer. And, and I stupidly said, mate, there's no way I'd run straight at Lewis Deacon. And he said, do you want to even be here? And I knew what that meant. So he goes, let's go again. And so I just had to take it, run straight at and get hammered for the three seconds until the team, the rest of the Ford Pack arrived.

And I, I always thought that was a, that was my welcome to Lester. I was like, righto. I see, I see how this is all, yeah. 

Carl: Oh yeah, I got that vibe. I met Rich Richard Cockrell at the Spain, Georgia game. Yes. Um, when I was there, and it was literally the first half was just Georgia, just having scraps with Spain.

There was two mass brawls, two red, four red cards or something. It was three red cards and a however many yellows already in his first half. And, uh, Cockers walked across to go to the tunnel. I said, I bet this [00:12:00] reminds you of the old Lester days. He goes, I dunno why they just don't, just let him fire you out, mate.

Just let it on. Just, just, we'll deal with it afterwards. I was like, yeah, brilliant, because I'll get five minutes with you afterwards. And he was, he was just like. They, it was just riled up. Everyone was up for it. He was just loved it. He's like, this is proper old school rugby. This is great. Day out. This is, so, 

Ben Herring: it's, it's a lovely approach.

And caucus certainly epitomizes that himself. So he was always Yeah. For it. And, and because he's so passionate about it, you just, you just bought into it yourself too, and you just, everyone that came there did that. I I, it would be very hard to, to get in place these days. 

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. They're uh, they're slightly frowned upon it now, don't they?

So, um, obviously Japan, you've mentioned Japan you speak, seem to have spent a little while in Japan. What was the main incentive? Obviously, I know there was a lot of money thrown around for Japan. Is, was that a, was, was that the golden ticket and you thought, right, here we go, this is the pay day, or No, I 

Ben Herring: was the pay, I've blown out on the, on the, on the IES and things, so I needed to, needed to catch up [00:13:00] on a couple.

No, mate, I, it's actually, it's actually quite a defining story for me as a coach, um, because I did two years at LE as a coach. So when I retired, knocked out caucus. Said, do you wanna stay on as a coach? And I didn't know, mate, I'd never thought about it before. And I gave it a good month. So then my wife said, look, I, you know, obviously you see something and then you might as well give it a crack.

And I did. And I loved it straight away. And so much so that I, I went, worked eight till four at Leicester. And then in the evenings I worked at, um, Nottingham second division. I just went around the clock and, and doubled up. So I did two teams with Glen Delaney there at Nottingham. Loved it. He's a great coach.

That's a great team. So I was getting my fix and after a couple years I just realized if I stayed on, I was just gonna be regurgitating the list away, which is a great way. Um, but I just wanted to, to learn a sort of bit more the art of coaching a bit more like how to deal with people, be in different situations.

Um, just push myself outside my comfort zone. So I wasn't just [00:14:00] regurgitating a system, I was actually, I was actually learning the art of this thing. 'cause I was, I was into it. I was really invested. So I rang my agent and said, um, before I sign again on either Nottingham or Leicester, like, mate, mate, what else is there?

Like, I really wanna push myself, uh, where in the world is I gonna kind of throw myself into something super different at whatever level? 

Carl: Mm. And 

Ben Herring: he came back a few days later and he goes, mate, there's actually a role at a mid-level company team in Japan. And um, I'll thrown your name in there and they'd love to meet you.

Would that be of interest? And I, I told us, I said to my wife, I was like, do you wanna go to Japan? She goes, oh, that'd be awesome. What a cultural experience. We just had one kid at the time. And so yeah, that, that was the, that was the one, like, and so I flew over for an interview, uh, on a weekend there and out, like, must have nailed the interview.

'cause they said, yep, that's all, that's all good. And we took it and we went there purely for the reason of let's sink or swim like we're doing with kids. Like I didn't speak a word of Japanese, didn't know anything about the culture. Just went over there and [00:15:00] just got into it, man. And it was, it's so different and fell in love with the place, uh, because the rugby's actually pretty good.

Wow. But what you learn as a coach, when you're having to coach in a foreign language, you can't speak. And a culture, which is so different to Western culture, it's um, it's good for the soul, it's good for you as a person. And it's unbelievable as a coach. And the money's also quite good too, mate. You're not wrong.

Like, yeah. I won't lie. I would say the, the money 

Carl: out. I'm sure it's not a downer 

Ben Herring: when you're looking at the numbers and the zeros. 

Carl: Brilliant. So obviously when you turned up there, and as you said, it's a completely different culture, et cetera, what's the rugby culture different or was that sort of, have they picked up little bits of how England, New Zealand, stuff like that, did rugby and just sort of try to mash it together?

Or was it a completely different reset button again? So you've gone there, new culture, new language, and a new way of rugby, or did you go there and sort of bring your. The Lester Way or how [00:16:00] did that sort of Yeah, yeah. Turn up as a coach as well. How did that work? Yeah. Well 

Ben Herring: this is, this is where I really grew as a coach that first year and probably the first six months were the most, uh, growth filled because I came in from a very successful Lester team, which won everything coaching for a couple years.

And I really did. I was like, this is how you coach. This is, this is the way, the only way, yeah. I came in, I went right, I cut and paste. Even though I said, that's not what I didn't wanna do. That's exactly what I did. I cut and paste with no, um, insight to how Japanese people are and how they've been schooled and how they, how all their cultures are.

So I came in guns blazing. This is what we're gonna do. And I, I really tried to be, as you do when you start up, you're a bit sort of think you're the man and um, yeah, this is the best way. Trust me, I know everything. And after I mate, after a few months, the captain came to me and was like, mate, this isn't working.

He actually spoke a bit of English and he's a good dude, hard shot. And I said, mate, it this works. And he goes, mate. It might work over there, but it doesn't work here. [00:17:00] You've got no idea about why we're even playing rugby. You've got no idea of our upbringing and our education. Like, you just don't know.

Like that stuff is all very well and fine in England for that team. It doesn't work here. 

Carl: Yeah. 

Ben Herring: And what he was mainly referring to was just around, particularly the way Japanese people are, are schooled. It's very different to the west. Yeah. And one of the big ones we found out with our kids going through Japanese schooling, it's very much, um, a lot of rote learning, a lot of fear of failure, so a lot of punishments if you're wrong.

Like, and so, uh, a lot of, um, players particularly don't wanna make mistakes. And so when you're trying to teach in potentially New Zealand, Australia, and even English, way around back yourself, make good decisions, you know, um, eyes up, rugby, all that kind of thing, that doesn't compute as well because. If you are playing eyes up rugby, there's potential for making mistakes or doing the wrong thing.

And throughout a Japanese education, that's often frowned upon and like grilled, like, don't make mistakes. [00:18:00] Don't make mistakes. Like it's a lot of right. Learning around things like maths and that sort of things. And certainly my children came out with a lot of that fear around certain things. Um, and, and part of the reason we left Japan in the end was just 'cause we wanted them to be, uh, a little bit more free to make mistakes and give things a crack and not be worried about, oh, is this the right thing to do?

Yeah. Um, so that was the big one. And, and so what, what that changes is a whole lot of your coaching style, knowing that people learn really differently and like, you had to be really good. I was saying things like, mate, just in this situation, just whatever you see, just play whatever you see. Mm-hmm. Which is, which is fine if that's a comfortable statement for you, but if that's something which is never done.

Like it gets us resistance. Like, ugh, we don't like that. We haven't got confidence now 'cause you're telling us just do anything and we don't wanna get it wrong. Just tell us what you want us to do and we'll do it to the, yeah. And so it had to be a little bit more, take away a few decisions and things like that and things you [00:19:00] don't like doing as coaches, but you had to do it and then slowly pull back on it and, and, and ease it outta the coaching.

Like, like build towards it rather than come in hard and say, nah, nah, you've gotta play eyes up rugby. 'cause it just, it fell flat and it, I've seen many foreign coaches, particularly New Zealand ones coming into Japan trying to teach things like heads up rugby and all that without putting in hard sort of boundaries and ways to play that, that, that fail miserably and get frustrated and then, yeah.

And the teams don't connect because they don't have confidence. 

Carl: Do you think that's potentially a reason why there's a few more. New Zealanders and foreign players going across when new coaches go, go there to sort of add that bit of flare that the potentially the Japanese players don't know how to, or they're allowed to do the, they're allowed, they know how to do the flare, but it has to be built in a structure lot.

How do you think that's a difference? Yeah. On, [00:20:00] on the recruitment. 

Ben Herring: I, I think just the money in Japan is certainly enticing all the foreign people there and, and some of the restrictions on, um, foreign players being allowed in there is, is is brought that influx. But I think Japanese rugby in general is, is really grown.

Like the younger generation that's coming through now is very different to, um, time's gone past, we're talking about right. Uh, 15, 16 years ago. And the type of player that's coming through, like globally, but even more so in in Japan. The Japanese players are a lot different to previous generations.

They're a lot more open, a lot more decision based. Yeah. A lot more, uh, or a lot less old school Japanese styles, just because, you know, society's changing there and, and these things are more acceptable than they once were. 

Carl: So when you obviously got the player come up and spoke to you about that, and as you said it was sort of six months into your first stint as a coach, was it a light bl light bulb moment or did you sort of think, hold on.

Have I, did you have to go back to the drawing board yourself? Or did you have to try [00:21:00] and paddle in between both of your ego not taking a bit of a batter in and also accommodating them? Uh, like how did that work? Because that must, as your first, first proper gig outside the Leicester, that must have been a big sort of change to the system yourself as well.

Yeah, I think 

Ben Herring: that's a great shout. I think, um, as, as a general rule, the quicker you can get over your ego as a coach, the better you become as a coach, I think when you start coaching, yeah. Your ego takes over straight away because you're suddenly in a position where you are in charge and then all of a sudden you've got people doubting you and questioning you and all that stuff and having these conversations about why.

And then 'cause you're not experienced and, and no, I'm not, uh, you know, you're not used to that sort of thing. You're sort of get quite defensive and you kick back against it. But for me, having that experience, so early on my, my third year into professional coaching, um, I actually embraced it and went, actually this is really good for me.

Good. And I think I've always made, and I often come back to like the fact that I was never picked for any teams all the way through my younger careers sort [00:22:00] conditioned me to take in, you know, those sort of ego hits. Like I, I, I like to think I haven't got a, everyone's got an ego, but I'd like to think mine's not.

As big as it could be. So I took him, I think I took him pretty well, and I got a, a, a beautiful wife who, who's very good on just putting things in perspective, saying things like, he's probably got a point, right? And you're like, yeah, yeah, he does. You know? And she goes, yeah, yeah. Do you know why they're here?

Have you been into the company and seen what they do during the day? And I hadn't. And, you know, and so that was part of my mission. From there, I actually went into the office and just walked around for days, like every, every day off. I had to kind of went in, went to a different department, saw what the boys actually do, or the players do.

And my goodness, once you saw what they did during the day, you're like, oh, a whole different perspective. Like it was, 

Carl: yeah, 

Ben Herring: they were getting paid, but they were, they still had to work. And some of the jobs they were doing, you're like, man, oh man. Like Aru, the one guy's job was shred paper. Yeah. And he did that all day.

Really? And so he was only playing rugby to get him outta the office. [00:23:00] Yeah. Wow. So it was totally different reasons. And so when you're coming from, you know, an international environment where they're, everyone's trying to, you know. Win top trophies and all that stuff. Some people were just trying to get outta the office for a couple hours, a a day, get away from the paper shooting.

Sort of changes your perspective on, on things and, and softens the way are as a coach when you know the, the backs stories and things like that. 

Carl: Yeah, nice. So obviously that, that was a, sounds like a fairly critical point in your, your sort of coaching career and a lot of coaches potentially don't get that so early on as well.

Do you think that benefited you as you said, 'cause it was so early that you weren't sort of stuck in your ways a little bit and you were still able to adapt to, to exactly what you remembered where you were as a player, potentially from not being picked, et cetera, and then to, to sort of embrace that straight away?

'cause you're not long retired. 'cause do you think that was easy? 'cause you were younger as well as a, a younger coach? 

Ben Herring: Yeah, I, I think so. I think I've always, I think it's a little bit my personality [00:24:00] type as I. I enjoy change and I enjoy shifting myself first. And, and just like, I'm never too proud to say I got it wrong, or like, that's an easy say for me.

I've, I've always been pretty quick to go, oh my bad. Yeah, I'm not, it doesn't bother, it doesn't bother me saying that. And I like the challenge of, it doesn't matter if you get it wrong, like just gonna work on it. And certainly coaching is full of that, especially at the beginning when you're, when you're making heaps of mistakes around people just 'cause you don't know, um, how to deal with people when you're, when you're first learning about that sort of leadership stuff.

Um, yeah. But, uh, mate, I I, I, it's all a learning process and I think you're right. Like doing it young is a good thing. And, and I, I remember I talked to Maddy O'Connor when I was first looking at the Japanese role, who's a very good coach who coached at Leicester at the time. He was the assistant backs coach, and he did that stint when he was young, and he encouraged me for exactly that reason to take it.

He said, you'll never get a better coaching experience when you're young than Japan because it tests you on every level. Like you, you're not just coaching [00:25:00] rugby, but you've gotta, you've gotta be thinking how to simplify, how to communicate without talking how to present to people that can't understand you, how to get messages across, you know, using sign language, how, how all this stuff like this, how to connect with people, you know, socially when you, you know, all this stuff.

And it was, it was amazing for your, your brain synapses to fire like that, to just get you thinking like that. It was cool. Mm-hmm. 

Carl: Yeah. It's amazing. Um, obviously you've mentioned your wife quite a few times as well during the conversation, and I think it's critical to probably go over that with a, with certainly younger coaches and stuff.

How important is it to have a supportive partner that makes every decision you make easier? Because like, my wife is really supportive of everything that we do to make sure that where we are as a family works, but also gives you. Yin to the yang. 'cause I'm a hundred miles an hour. Like, I'll be fully in like under and she'll be like, hold on, [00:26:00] let's, let's, let's probably, let's, let's think about this.

Is that the right decision? I'm like, yeah, it's fine, let's go. But, but how important is it to have a supportive partner while you try to do everything like that? Go travel in the world, do all your, all those situations as a coach? 

Ben Herring: Yeah, man, I, I just think it's, it's been my biggest joy actually just sharing this, these experiences with my, my wife and, and I'm very privileged and she's super open to travel and super open to new experiences.

We both are, we're very similar like that. So Japan's not an easy place to, um, be by yourself as the partner sometimes When, when the, when I'm coaching full time. Yeah. And, and you're at home not with any sort of connection to family, friends, nothing. And you dunno the language. But she's a very intelligent woman, so she, she's learned it pretty quick.

She threw herself out there. Oh, wow. And did a, met a lot of people quite quickly. And that's what you have to do. So lucky to have someone like that. Yeah. Um, and it's not for everybody. I, I, I know a good number of coaches [00:27:00] over, there's partners don't go because they struggle with that side of things. And that's a tough decision.

And that's why a lot of professional coaches end up going solo, uh, and just doing the season, then coming back to wherever they are because, um, the partner's not happy. And if the partner's not happy in a place Yeah. Particularly like Japan, it, it makes, you know, the decision to go in the first place, a difficult one.

Um, but I, I never had that. I think from a life perspective, Carl, that, um. Having a sounding board at home on not just the rugby stuff, but the people side of the sport as well has always been something. She's been an absolute rock for me, when as a coach you deal with all the stresses and strains and all the stuff, and sometimes you give 'em that emotional squirrel and to have someone at home that can just be like you talked about that sort of offset that yang to that yang to just go, actually, well, do you think he had a point by saying that, you know, do you think, you know, his argument when he was challenging you, you know, was based in, you know, his perception, which is reality, and you're like.

You're probably right. And, uh, just offer those sort of things. I [00:28:00] regularly, and like it was, it was lovely to have someone, um, that you can lean on like that, like in your home that would speak honestly. And, and not many people can speak as honestly as, as, as you would know your partner. And, and that grew our relationship to be fair.

Like having those honest conversations where she could just tell me, you're being a dick here, that that guy didn't deserve the way you do. Yeah. You should probably go sort that out tomorrow. You know? Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. If if she's saying that, then I gotta go do it. And so Yes mate. I, yeah. I, if you, and the other thing, if you're, if you haven't got a partner of any description, if you're just rolling single solar.

You, you don't have a, uh, someone to vent to. You know, sometimes just being able to tell someone that, you know, it's not gonna go any further, it doesn't mean anything. You go, this is my frustrations I'm having at work. These are these issues with these players. And to have someone that's just able to just go, oh, well, you know, and, and, and then you feel better and then you go the next day without all those, yeah.

That baggage. And, uh, I, I, I think it's, um, I think it's a special [00:29:00] sort of dynamic and I think all I, I would, I would imagine all the best coaches in the world have a incredible partner at home, uh, or partner with them, not just at home, but a partner alongside them, that, that offers them, that, that yin and yang, that, that composure, that balance, that perspective on rugby and life and sport, I'd say I 

Carl: think it's even harder when you throw the kids into the mix as well, don't it?

'cause the, like, the, your, your wife, et cetera, is usually at home dealing with that a lot of the time, or you trying to balance family life and then as you say, you'll vent. Certain situations and she, that you've got really wound up about and she'll be like, hold on. Like this is, there's a bigger picture to all of this.

And she's like, she'll be like, yeah, you. And then you think, yeah, actually I, I probably need to just let that go rather than just really wound up about it. It's, it's a really good balance to have as well. And it's not, as you said, it's not even just about people finding a apart. Some people have also, like other coaches [00:30:00] have other coaches to vent to as well.

And then that, that, that there's an outlet there. And I think trying to run its solo is quite difficult to probably get that balance of understanding all aspects, especially in a, in a completely new country as well. A new culture as well. There. There's probably bits that your wife has picked up that you, that she understands more than you do in certain situations.

Do you find that as well, because they go, they, they're able to sort of view it from a different point? Yeah, I, I. My, my wife especially can, that's for sure. 

Ben Herring: I, I think that's just the dynamic between men and women too, by the way. Like yeah, like females and males pick up very different aspects. I miss stuff like all the time, which she's like, do you not see what just happened there?

No idea what happened.

Uh, no. I missed that, uh, that social cue completely. Um, the, the, it interesting though, like just on that Japanese thing, that, and, and going back to that podcast, which we've done, is, um, the connection you have with coaches there is really strong [00:31:00] because you're all in the same boat. Everyone's got families like myself and Franz Luca, myself and Johan Ackerman, Steve Hanson, we we're all there together.

Like we're, and you become really good mates because you are, there's, there's not too many other social circles. You, you, you work in. So me and Franz Yeah. Coached different teams. He coached Kubota and I was coaching, um, the Sun Malls and we lived in the same village and, and we just became, our families became really tight just because.

There was someone else that spoke English nice. And then it was just lovely. And you have those sort of connections and you just, you just connect with, uh, other, other sort of coaches and foreigners, particularly deeper because you just don't get many other choices and just, they're all good. The good sorts too.

So it was great. 

Carl: Nah, fair play. So obviously the podcast you, you started, was it, was it January roughly that you, you started it 

Ben Herring: more or less? Yeah. Yeah. January of February, yeah. Yeah. January, I think it was January. 

Carl: Go. Great Guns mate. Obviously you had some amazing guests on So [00:32:00] far obviously you've delved into the, the little black book.

For those that haven't sort of reached into the backstory of, of the podcast, what was, what was your reason for, for starting it? Did you, you think we, you needed to get that message out because there's a lot of rugby podcasts out there at the minute as well, but Coaching Culture sort of stands out. In its own little bubble because it gives different stories of how those coaches come, come to where they are.

Like, did you think actually I need to tell my story through this? Or did you think I'm already busy, I just wanna be a bit busier? Does that, does that kind of 

Ben Herring: Yeah. Well you, you certainly noticed that in a busy week when you, when you've gotta get the podcast edited up, it certainly, uh, yeah. Takes it. But no, the, the reason is because I've always loved the stuff and I feel like this is where I've gone really well with my own coaching.

Like, I, quite quickly, I, I know I've got a little niche around the breakdown and some defensive [00:33:00] stuff, which I'm very good at. Um, technically, but mm-hmm. Where, where I really came, came of age and, and the Japan experience was, was big too. And my little, I had a couple of years in Canada too, and I just found the, the people really enjoyed my coaching and it wasn't, I.

Necessarily, the feedback I always got was, we, we loved the we technical stuff, but just the way you made us feel and you, you got this team pumping by just being open, being creative, being um, optimistic and positive and connecting with people. And it just, I, I just saw the, the ability to take teams from just, just sort of going through the motions to actually getting excited to play with nothing like technical done.

Yes, there's, there's technical stuff which helps, but just by connecting and making people feel belonged, belonging to a team and part of it and appreciated by the coach and that someone cares for them and all these soft skill type things. I saw it firsthand with international sides and the difference it made and, and like [00:34:00] top draw professional teams, the impact and the actual performance on field changing.

And it sort of became where I really rate myself and, and go really well on this front. And I just, just thought. It's a skill set of mine. Um, the coaches that I all coach us know that, know this is me. And so like I of, 'cause I've been around the world with this, this, this gig. Let's start making this more accessible.

Uh, and I've always, I've had this mission, Carl, that I, I love America. So this is my little, the person I am trying to get to is the, the club coach in Texas that's got no one else to turn to. Um, he can watch all the technical drills on YouTube, but he's got, he doesn't know how to run a rugby team. He doesn't know how to bring people together.

He, he doesn't know how to make the, the sport fun because he, he just hasn't got the people to lean on. And I thought, why not? Why not bring the world to him? That, that 'cause like, you can't go to the, the Texas Rugby Union is, is, you know, is a good one, but it's, [00:35:00] it doesn't have the resource. It's such a massive area.

Like for, for that coach in Texas to get insight to how to actually create a team to create the culture of rugby, to reinforce the values of the sport. I got no idea. Like, and, and, and how would you Mm. Like you'd have to fly to another country and do two weeks with the crusaders or on one of those high performance courses.

So I just took it on as a challenge. Like, let's bring it to, let's bring it to the place in the world. I can't do it. And, and, and, and have a good crack at it. And, and on the side, I wanted to learn those skills myself. I wanted to, you know, see if I could make something like, make a product of, you know, editing skills and a little bit of marketing there.

There's so much to it and it really, it ticked all my creative, like, much like yourself probably mate you. It's, it's a creative outlet and, and just to work it and see what you can do and who you can ask and, and see what comes of it. And I walk away from every episode with pages of notes from these guys.

And, you know, privilege to start off with, as you said, like I [00:36:00] start off with Eddie, uh, Jones and then Steve Hanson as my opening too. And yeah, you know, it just starts off on the right foot when you've got a couple of biggest names. In the world Rugby, just saying, yeah man, I'd love to. And they were so good with it and everyone, since it's just been the same mate, it's, it's a joy.

Carl: It's the same as where I started the pod to, to reach into grassroots and especially like the Rugby Europe stuff where I, I feel isn't covered enough. And there's, there's a lot of stories that people don't know and then you obviously, you're able to reach out to di dors and coaches and stuff. All of these ones that are able to, that just wanna talk rugby.

And that's the, I think that's the greatest bit of our sport is everyone wants to talk about it. We've just now gotta find a way of how can we commercialize it and take it more to the masses so that everyone else can see how great our sport is. And I think that's potentially where we are at. A bit of a crossroads of, of rugby.

I, I obviously we do, I do a lot of stuff alongside all things rugby and they're trying to do [00:37:00] the, the rugby app and try to change the ways that Rugby's done. What would be your one. Way to change rugby at the minute that could bring it into the mainstream, like bigger mainstream, and obviously make it more accessible to everyone.

Ben Herring: I often, like, I often think back to, um, ancient Rome when they had the Colosseum and the gladiators and that that filled like a hundred thousand people, you know, and it was packed and eventually that became redundant and extinct and Gladys were no longer a thing. And I assume at some point people went, oh, you know what?

People are getting hurt in here. Um, dunno if it's worth doing. And then it just died. And for a little bit of me, I know that's a morbid analogy to relate to rugby, but you know, there's, there's components of that which maybe ring true too. It is a violent sport, it's a contact sport. People get hurt and, and worse than hurt.

Um, and there's that, I know it feels at the moment like there's that, that [00:38:00] risk of it, um, going that way, like the gladiators did, where it gets so watered down that. Imagine if the gladiators said, oh, let's just try do, um, no swords for a little while and, and see what that happens. You imagine the crowd.

Yeah. Nah, but um, where I think mate, where I think it can really, it can always stay relevant and it can be and, and where good rugby people can drive it is the values of this thing, like the values of rugby, I think is consumptions any other sport. And part of the reason why it consumptions other sports is the contact hurt injury aspect where it does hurt physically.

And when you go through physical hurts, you can actually grow your emotional resilience to those physical hurts so that a physical hurt doesn't then become an emotional hurt. And where else in life do you get that in a team setting? Like there's other combat sports, like MMA, boxing, but they're individual.

But this is a sport. Yeah. Like, uh, that has [00:39:00] great values associated, like that is the guiding light of rugby is the, is it's a brutal game played by people that honor the values and values of sportsmanship, respect, treating each other well, like, like we talked earlier about smashing each other up in fights, and then a second later you shake hands and you, you're back into it and, and that kind of thing.

Like, yeah. That's, that's almost like it's, it's beautiful in a way. Like you can just, it things go, you can, you everyone understands the dynamic and the physical nature and the hurt. Yeah. And you people are able to push through and get learnings, which relates to other aspects of life. And I deal with a lot of kids or have done in the past, um, that come from real troubled upbringings like gangs, things like that.

And a sport like rugby. Is amazing. It channels all that stuff, which is going on in their life and puts it look, puts constraints and values around the behavior and says, there you go, go do that, but do it in this constraints and learn how to, you know, grow resilience, how [00:40:00] to grow your redhead blue head so you're not just always flick into that.

And, and it can do that. And if you didn't have it, they'd be done out in the street to, to random public people for sure. I know, I know guys that I've coached that if they weren't playing rugby, they'd be in jail for bashing someone. Yeah. On a street on a Saturday night. A hundred percent. They'd admit that themselves.

I've, I've got players that have said that to me. If it wasn't a rugby, I'd be in jail. And yeah, for me that's what we can, um, we, we've gotta push that side of it. We've gotta push the value of being hurt. Mm-hmm. Rather than say we shouldn't be getting hurt, we need to push the fact that getting hurt is a good thing.

'cause it teaches you how to deal with it. And I think it should be in our kids. Like, I'm sort of gone into a director of rugby role at a school here and there's a lot of cotton wooling and the danger of cotton wooling is it, it kills the, the beauty of the sport like. I want my boy to get knocked when he's playing.

Like, um, he went into the physio today and had a grade one, um, medial, um, ligament strain. And he came to me and said, but [00:41:00] I can still play a Yeah. And I was like, mate, if it doesn't hurt, you can play. And he goes, it hurts a bit. And I go, can you push through it? And he goes, yeah, I reckon I can. I go, well, give it a crack mate and see how you go.

Yeah. But he's learning him now. 

Carl: Load of tape on it. It'd be fine. Tape, tape solves every, he's learning 

Ben Herring: how to push through stuff and, and physical things. Yeah. And he, he's training his brain mentally and emotionally how to get through that. And so when he experiences Yeah. Hurts in life, either mental, emotional, physical, he's, he's had that experience.

He goes, actually know I've, you know, I've pushed through something worse than this before when I, you know, broke my leg. You know, like I had to work hard, get back, do all this thing. And it, it's a humbling experience. And the whole sport of rugby conceptually is about getting knocked back up, knocked back down and learning, get up again and go again.

Do exact same. And, and that is resilience personified. And. I think that's an aspect in life and humanity where we've gotta keep pushing it because the more automated things get, the more you're taking away resilience in people. And I [00:42:00] think rugby rugby's the vehicle to do that. So if I was to change anything, I wouldn't change it.

I'd just double down on the, the positive. Nate, go 

Carl: full Send. Yeah, full Send on, on what it is. Yeah. Let's, 

Ben Herring: let's push it. Let's like, governing bodies ahead of rugby's, you know, unions, councils double down on the values of it. Like, yes, it's aggressive. Yes, you get hurt. Yes, injuries will be there, but that's not a bad thing.

Let's, let's not remove, it's not Teflon rugby. Um, because the, the, the value get is immense. 

Carl: I think, I think probably the safest way to describe rugby is controlled violence. It is literally, it is the perfect vessel for teaching self-control, teaching how to still stand up for yourself in life. Like there's a.

We just had the Champions Cup final the, uh, on Saturday, and obviously he, Henry Pollock, 20 years old, was literally playing on the edge all the way through the game, winding Bordeaux up to [00:43:00] try and make sure that Saints won. It didn't work out for Saints. Obviously, the Bordeaux players give him a shove, et cetera, but there was automatically like, oh, why are you starting on a 20 year, 20-year-old?

If he's willing to stand up for himself, you gotta expect it back in life. You can't just jump on the bandwagon and say, oh, he started it, blah, blah, blah. Now they're, they're starting back on him. You, you can't, we can't portray rugby as the way that is and the aggressive side and lads are up for it, but then as soon as somebody gives it back to somebody that's been doing it game.

We're running around saying, oh, he is 20-year-old. You can't start picking on a 20-year-old. Like, hold on mate. He's been trying to have a scrap all game trying to literally play on the on the edge, which is what we want in rugby and we want him to do what he wants to do. And that's probably the greatest aspect of our game is you can literally find line balance that sort of aggression and being a NAS and being a wind up.

Ben Herring: [00:44:00] I've heard that word in a long time. Love it. 

Carl: Yeah. But like you, you, you can be fine line for being a NA in rugby to then where it then tilts over the edge. And I dunno why the media had to go start running round and saying, oh, why are we starting on the 20-year-old? Like it's, if he's old enough to play and good enough to play, it doesn't matter how old.

He's like, there's enough 18 year olds out there that are probably of a standard, but they're also willing to have a scrap. They're willing to stand and fight for their own, their own values, but we're. namby-pambying around on some of that sort of media, I think Yeah. Potentially. 

Ben Herring: The, the other, the other aspect, which I'll add to that is for, for a lot of people, it's important to have this, this outlook.

This is like, people love it. The people that are out there at a professional level, certain they love it. It's, it's them. And if you are, like, my, my dad's not a rugby guy, right? For example, and he used to say to me when I was, yeah, just making it professionally, like when I'd come back with like bloody heads, [00:45:00] like stitches down my face and black eyes, and he'd just, he couldn't understand it.

He was like. On what, why are you doing this? What's the appeal? And I was like, I dunno, dad, I just love it. Yeah. And he just couldn't get it. Yeah. Like he just, he was always like, huh, I don't, it, it seems crazy to me, like, why you do this to yourself? Like, why would you run into these fellas? Like why would you put your head down there when they can kick it?

And Yeah. For the bulk of people in, um, in the world who don't play rugby, that that's the, the sentiment. Like, this is stupid. Like, and, and get angry, but for those people that play it, this, you, you know that the desire, there's something inherent in you which just goes, this is awesome. Like, yeah, the pain doesn't hurt.

Like, I love this stuff. And if you, if you are not that way, you don't get it. Like you don't get the appeal of yeah. Getting knocked over. Like, why would you do that? But for those that are in it, it's like, please don't take this away. Please don't like, do stuff against this. Like, this is what, like this is the one place in life where that personality type or, or the people that [00:46:00] love that get to do it.

So. It should be those people that make, you know, make the changes and be critiquing stuff. 'cause they know the deal. Like the rugby people. Yeah. Like it feels like sometimes people that dunno, rugby, that don't play it, judge it with an, you know, a civilian mindset, if that's the right word. Oh, it's aggressive.

Oh, it's a violent, oh, it's combative. We should get rid of it. It's like, whoa. Well yes, but you, you don't know the, the intrinsic motivations and, and the burn that people have about this side of life. 

Carl: I, I, I think we also don't, um, we didn't deal with the head case situation very well. A lot of the RFU was, it was a case of Yeah, they just agreed 'cause they didn't want to sort of try and defend it.

I, I don't know. I think it could have been a, 'cause a lot of kids don't want to play the game or parents don't want the kids to play the game now because all they hear is about people with serious bad [00:47:00] head injuries and stuff, and. We've changed, changed the game to accommodate what was injuries at the top 1% because of the amount of training sessions and stuff like that.

The rest of the game's been changed to dilute that game, to focus on the 1% of injuries at the top, top level, but not change the top level because not all of the tackles are the same as what you could. It's, we can't, we didn't as a rugby piece, I don't think we dealt with it very well and probably played into a lot of people's agenda of it.

Is that, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you running it first into that 20 odd stone man and stuff? We, I don't think we dealt with it very well as a, as a sport. 

Ben Herring: Mate. I, I agree. And I've got some pretty strong opinions, which, um, I probably shouldn't air on on, but like having been through serious concussion myself, like I got knocked out and it took me ages.

Right? Yeah. So I was through it. They actually, they actually asked me if I wanted to be on that, uh, that suit, for example. Like, do you wanna come join this? Yeah. And my answer was [00:48:00] no, because I knew what I was walking into the moment I started playing rugby, I knew small guy playing the big guy's game. I, I knew everybody knows that that's a 

Carl: Yeah.

Ben Herring: They head's gonna get knocked. Like I knew that. And it, yeah. Like, no one probably has got the head knocks that, that, like I'm one of that 1% that got some serious ones, which had some long-term damage. Mm-hmm. But I, I work really hard to come right from that. It took me ages, um, yeah. But like, don't drink or didn't drink, um, took really good foods, supplements, exercise.

I did all these awesome things like, like synergistic foods, which worked, um, food logs, which affected me and really worked hard on that. Yeah, man, really, I, I, I'll tell you, well, anyone listening that wants to know if you get a concussion, this is what my wife said to me who'd done a whole protocol, like she's a geek, she's a, she's a medical researcher by trade.

So when I was struggling, she was like, what? She said this to me, your brain's not healing the way it should. So you are doing [00:49:00] something that's keeping your brain in that state. So we need to work out what it is that you are doing that's keeping your brain from repairing properly and. I love that because it took away the victim hood of it.

Like took away the fact that, you know, like, oh, I've got a head. No, I can't do anything. I'm just gonna sit here and do whatever. Um, and it made me, so the first thing we did, and for, for weeks, I would take hardcore food diaries, and then when I got my, my headaches and my brain fog and all that stuff, she would go back and go through everything I'd eaten.

And she goes, Hey, here's a pattern that's emerging. Every time you eat almonds, you know, you go, you're getting that headache, you complain about, about six hours later. And she's like, isn't that fascinating? So, wow, let's take that outta your diet. 'cause for whatever reason, for you individually, that's a, that's, that's stirring your brain up or you know, you're getting a reaction then.

Yeah. So let's, let's edit that out for a while. And, and likewise, there's heaps of other things which can, like pattern wise, it was, yeah, I was doing stuff to keep me in that state or to not maximize my recovery. [00:50:00] And I think it's really important. Um, that you actually, you're really active. Like if you were to, to get a cork thigh mm-hmm.

You would be able to ice it, massage it, all that stuff to, to reduce the swelling and whatnot. But you can't do that with the brain. 

Carl: Yeah. 

Ben Herring: But you, the food and things you put in your brother, your stimulants are keeping that, you know, stirring. And so mate, I like, I think it's done a little bit of damage to the game, that side of things.

It's created this kind of, um, this a the awareness is good, don't get me wrong. The awareness is good and it's good that it's changed, that it is a serious thing because back back in my day it was like, are you all right? Keep going. And I did and I got knocked out multiple times in games, which is horrendous.

So that's gone now. Yeah. There's definitely that awareness is there. Um, but it's important like now any knock if like at schoolboy level, for example, if, if, if you think you've got a knock, you say you've got a concussion, you do the mandatory stand down and I would say. Yeah, I've seen 50 concussions on say, one is [00:51:00] actually what I go That's, that would be a genuine concussion.

The rest are all just, I think something's wrong and it's becoming that. Yeah. And I don't wanna take anything away from people that, well I had, I had serious concussion issues, so I know the feeling you have to be hit pretty hard. It has some pretty stuff. Um, go on with that. But there's a whole backstory to that stuff, mate.

I think the litigation side of things, and people, dare I say it, like, you know, wanting to do well at it, potentially. I, I dunno mate. I, I shouldn't probably say it anymore. I'm get bit fired up about it, Carl, and 

Carl: No, I, I agree. I think that there is a re there, is there, what, what's been put in place is, is, is correct.

Yeah. To, to a certain extent. But there's, there's, I, I think there's also, as you said, there's probably an element of people, some players that are playing the game that don't want to play the game. That's an easy opt out. On some plate, like some, oh, I think I've got a head. Like they just, they're [00:52:00] gas. They can't fucking run anymore.

Like there's sometimes I thought, fuck me, I, I feel like I need a head injury, like head knock here just so that I can get 10 minutes nap or something like, but there, there's an, there's an element of are you putting a, that's the first thing anyone runs on any physio, runs onto a game. Now is it a head injury?

Is it this, is it that, and then they've obviously the, the safeguards in place now to make sure that we, we go, we go through every protocol, which is brilliant and obviously that, and it is brilliant Kyle to happen. Some 

Ben Herring: of those protocols are brilliant and it's, it's, they're very good to have in. And even some of the mandatory stuff I think is excellent too, without question.

Yep. 

Carl: Yeah, exactly. And obviously the players that have got serious, serious issues since that, there's obviously, they've got, they've got to make sure that they're protected. It's the same as NFL as well, the NFL kind of, they dealt with it in a completely different manner, didn't they? They, they just sort of tried to ignore it and like say, it never [00:53:00] happened.

We, this, the game's kind of gone the other end of the scale. And we've, we, if we could find that mid balance to still promote the values of the game and, and make sure that everyone's safe while not diluting the game, I think that's exactly where we can probably push the game forward. 

Ben Herring: Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I'd agree with that.

I, I reckon it. Yeah. I, I think you're spot on. Keep the values and Yeah. Um, with you mate, for sure. 

Carl: Right. So we've obviously gone through most of where you've been, what you've done. With the podcast as well. What's, what's the biggest takeaway you've had from, obviously you've, as you said, you've had Eddie Jones on Steve Hanson, you had John Mitchell on the other week, Sam Vesty on the most recent episode that we've, just before, we've recorded this from talking to all of those coaches, what is the one takeaway from that you could probably joined together and give advice to a young coach?

I had Simon Middleton on and he just said, throw yourself into everything, every opportunity you can as a coach, go and do [00:54:00] it. 'cause then you'd learn different aspects. Is that a similar sort of tune that Eddie and Steve and sort of John Mitchell and that they're all sort of singing or have they got a different mindset?

I love that phrase 

Ben Herring: by Simon. I reckon that's a bang on, like that's, as a young coach, you throw yourself in the deep end and go for it. And you can't, you can't get it wrong if you have a great outlook like that. I think with the nature of the podcast of doing the culture one, what I probably, what, what's I.

What's been really highlighted back to me, I've always known through my own experience and successes that the importance of the cultural aspect, the lighter skills, the human skills, the softer skills, uh, I've always known their importance. And, and what this podcast has magnified for me is that all these top coaches put that side of the game more important than the technical and technical.

Um, and that's a lot of 'em. It's come later in life. Like Steve Hanson's a good one where, you know, he, he, he said to me once that, you know, when he left Wales, what did you change when you went to All Blacks? And he said, oh, my leadership and my ability [00:55:00] to connect with people rather than any sort of technical and technical stuff.

And he said, that's been my biggest learning. 

Carl: Mm-hmm. 

Ben Herring: And I think that that's the driving message is that this is such a sport where you can keep it so simple. You can do so well in such a simple game. If you get the buy-in, if you make people love it, if you make them want to be there, um, you, you are simple and you only have to look at South Africa the way they play.

Like they win World Cups with the simplest game plan you'll ever see. But their players are so connected, so into it. So bought in through RA's brilliant connect, connecting the way he connects that team, the way he drives it, the way he fosters belief and all that stuff. That's the art of what he's doing.

'cause I know for a fact, like they're, they're not doing anything, anything that rock, like, you know, that's so simple. We had Peter Steph Toy in our team last year. Mm-hmm. And I was just trying to, you know, ask him what, what sort of stuff's he doing? He's like, oh no mate, what's your defense? I think goes, mate, just go hard.

Just [00:56:00] fly up. I just go hard. Yeah, but what are you doing? He goes, ah. Just stand on the outside, go for it. You know, there's nothing to it. But the belief in that they sold the dream and all that side of things is huge. And I think as coaches, yeah, especially young coaches, you, you think you have to know all this technical and tactical stuff and to a degree you do.

Like, you have to know, you know, a level. Mm-hmm. And, and if you wanna go to the next level, you probably have to know that level up. But it's, it's a lot lower than you think. And if you can connect people really well, and if you can ask good questions and get through to people and motivate people and do that side of the game really well, you can know nothing about the game, I reckon.

And I would love to do that. I'd love to go into, now with the skill sets I've got, I'd love to go into sports. I've never played, I don't have much idea about like hockey or something, and see if I could coach a team to a good level just by, you know, getting the best outta people. Like, you know, getting them to come up with ideas and driving that.

So I reckon I could do it now with, [00:57:00] with what I've learned over the last 15 years. I reckon that's the, the piece. I think in previous times that sort of stuff hasn't been able to equate to success, but just what Sam, Sam Vesti said the other day about that I had the Crusades Academy guy on the other day who actually Paul Gland and he said, yeah, the Crusaders thing, the first thing they look at is, is character, which has nothing to do with the actual game, right?

Like they're looking at those soft, those, but guys who have the ability to be good people to, you know, think and all that stuff before they even, you know, that's their biggest character tr thing they're looking for before they even start looking for Yeah, how good they can kick a ball or pass a ball or anything like that.

And, no, that's it. So I would say for young coaches, like yes, get onto your technical skills. It's, it's the game, it's part of it. But then. Once you get to a certain level, really dive into the other aspect too. Get to know people. How do you get the best outta people? How do you make people love what they're doing?

How do you drive that [00:58:00] motivation? Those sort of things are so creative and if you're that way inclined, it's such a joy. 

Carl: I think it's a bit similar to the, the business analogy as well. Like you try, you try to be the most, the dumbest person in the room, so you're able to bring the, the, the right people in to, to sort of, so you don't have to know anything like as you said, you could potentially go into another sport by knowing the right people that are better than you to make sure that vessel runs easier.

Um, and as you said, trying to balance that, especially trying to like coaching between cultures as well. Must be, that's the bit to make sure that you know the right people in the right places. Yeah. That will make your life easier as a coach as well as the people you are trying to coach. 

Ben Herring: Yeah. Yeah.

Couldn't agree more mate. That's spot on, 

Carl: Ben. I think this could go on for hours, mate, but I know I've already probably taken up far too much of your time by getting there, getting on the wrong time zone in my, my own, my, my, my, my little 

Ben Herring: guy's, uh, he's, he's sitting up watching episodes of [00:59:00] Family Guy, what he probably shouldn't do, thinking it's Christmas.

'cause um, dad's, dad's slacking off on his storytelling tonight. 

Carl: Oh, mate, it's been an absolute pleasure, Ben, having you on. So, for anyone that. Doesn't know where to, to find your podcast. Where is it? What, who's, who's coming up? Are you able to sort of give us any, uh, highlights of any future guests? 'cause I dunno how big this black book is, but Christ, you are getting some guests on there, mate.

It's, it's going good 

Ben Herring: mate. We've, we've got a few goodies coming up. It's called the Coaching Col. It's called Coaching Culture with Ben Herring It's on all, um, apple, Spotify, all, all podcast platforms. Doing a lot on LinkedIn. Yeah, that's the, that's the area of the platform, which I, I like to use 'cause I get to add my own comments to some of the podcasts and draw up things that I've done, um, which, which has been sensational.

Um, mate, we've got some good ones coming up. We've, we, we, we are branching out and doing it a couple of different people. We've got some, some of the world rugby. Directors of rugby coming on. We've got, um, oh wow. Some analysis guys. And we've, [01:00:00] you know, we've got some international coaches already in the bank mate.

Um, one of them may or may not be coaching the Lester Tigers future coming up soon. Nice. But loving them mate. Yeah, it's, it's, it's fun. Some good people and, and they're very, as you would know, people that come on podcasts are generally super open about sharing their stuff. A hundred percent. 

Carl: Uh, mate, it's been a pleasure just to have you on and just chat rugby and obviously we've, we've gone over a lot of, a lot of stuff that might have dug up some memories or memories that you can't remember now 'cause of uh, 'cause of the previous, previous injuries and, well, I think, I think there's definitely more in the tank and for the, everyone that hasn't.

Sort of got enough of this. Go and, uh, go listen to Ben's pod because it, it, it's quality out there, mate. And, uh, yeah, can't wait to to see the future guest mate. Your 

Ben Herring: legend. Carl, thanks for having me, mate. What a, what a privilege. 

Carl: No, thank you Ben. Really appreciate it. Thanks, uh, for everyone that wants to make sure they keep hold of everything that Rugby TTL are doing.

Uh, obviously we're on [01:01:00] Insta everywhere else. Make sure you like, follow, subscribe, keep abreast on everything on YouTube. There's plenty more guests coming up. Probably not as good as Ben's, but we'll, we'll have a go anyway. So thank you and goodbye.