Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 6 - Steve Noble Rugby Asia

Inside Rugby Asia: Challenges & Triumphs with Steve Noble | Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast

Join us in this episode of Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast, where our host sits down with Steve Noble from Rugby Asia 24/7. The conversation spans the landscape of rugby in Asia, discussing the challenges of governance, the impact of expats, and the incredible grassroots initiatives despite political and financial hurdles. Steve shares his insights on the potential for growth in regions like UAE, China, and Cambodia, the opportunities and issues faced by teams like Hong Kong China, and what it would mean for these nations to compete on the world stage. Don't miss this deep dive into the complexities and future opportunities for rugby in Asia.

00:00 Introduction and Recap of Last Episode

00:25 Guest Introduction: Steve Noble

01:04 Steve's Rugby Journey

02:50 Rugby Documentaries and Springbok Fans

05:22 Lions Series Predictions

10:04 Cambodia Rugby: Grassroots to Growth

14:49 Challenges in Asia Rugby Governance

19:51 Positives and Growth in Asia Rugby

24:03 Kazakhstan Women's Rugby Decline

27:34 China's Rugby Potential

34:11 Sevens Rugby and Governance Issues

48:19 Rugby in the Armed Forces

51:54 Middle East Rugby Growth

52:55 Historic Test Match for Bahrain

53:12 Challenges in Asian Rugby

54:01 Regional Rugby Developments

55:27 World Cup Qualification Efforts

56:59 Impact of Transient Expats

58:23 Political Tensions and Rugby

59:07 Future of Rugby in the Middle East

01:03:44 UAE's Rugby Prospects

01:05:36 Sri Lanka's Rugby Journey

01:09:02 Hong Kong, China Rugby Analysis

01:12:38 World Cup Qualification Scenarios

01:30:51 Women's Rugby World Cup 2025

01:38:57 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Recap of Last Episode
• 0:25 Guest Introduction: Steve Noble
• 1:04 Steve's Rugby Journey
• 2:50 Rugby Documentaries and Springbok Fans
• 5:22 Lions Series Predictions

Transcript

Rugby TTL EP 6 - Steve Noble 

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby through the League's podcast. Last week, obviously we had Saner on from All Things Rugby, and I think we probably covered everything to do with rugby. Probably set the world to rights, probably through a few hand grenades and a few laps as well. So this week we're gonna follow up.

We've probably a few more hand grenades, but from a Rugby Asia point of view with , Steve Noble. Steve, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on, mate. I know that obviously we're in the WhatsApp group with all things rugby and obviously a few things float around, but it's, it's a pleasure to have you on, mate, and really appreciate your time.

Steve Noble: No, likewise. It's good to be here. It's good to do this podcast with this collaboration of writers that we know through All Things Rugby. So it's always good to chat and I think as you and Saner were covering last time, it's, um, honest conversations, which is what I like. 

Carl: Yeah, there's uh, there's plenty of honest conversations to be adding rugby, I think to move forward with, uh, with what the product that we got.

'cause we all love it. And, uh. We definitely want the best out of it. [00:01:00] So obviously for those that don't know, what's your sort of rugby process player, et cetera. Obviously you, you're based in Cambodia as we've just sort of spoken, but obviously your accent, clearly not Cambodian. Uh, so obviously for those that aren't aware, can we, uh, enlighten the, the rest of the world?

Yeah, 

Steve Noble: the, the, the short long story, I'm South African originally. I still consider myself South African dual national actually. So I have a Dutch passports and I did play, uh, when I was a university, went to go visit family. I played in Holland and I remember once playing, I. I think with their under 20 team.

Uh, and at that same weekend, got to see a touring under South African under 23 team that included a whole bunch of spring box that went on to win World Cups, which is crazy. But, um, being, uh, living all over the world, obviously South Africa, born raised school education, lived in Europe a long time. Lived in Australia, New Zealand, Dubai, and I've been in Cambodia for more than a decade.

Uh, [00:02:00] still playing socially. I helped start a club, uh, in Phnom Penh a decade ago. So this year's our 10 year anniversary. And if you had asked me 10 years ago, would, would I ever thought the club would still be going? I'd say not a chance. Um, so still reluctantly playing, mainly trying to play vets. And then obviously I've started Rugby Asia of 24 7, maybe 5 , 6 years ago.

Uh. Basically 'cause living in the region it was so difficult to find out any information about what was happening. And there's so much more rugby than people think. That's how the rugby website started and now it's just taken off in its own evolution. 

Carl: Amazing. So you obviously still classify yourself as South African.

Is that, 'cause you won the last two World Cups, obviously, if that success wasn't there with you, be shouting from the rooftops. 

Steve Noble: Yeah, it's um, no, I'd always proudly been, I, I got into rugby late, to be honest. 'cause I grew up actually originally in, uh, Holland and Dubai. Pre 1991 Gulf War, Dubai. It's a very different UE at the [00:03:00] time.

Um, but I got to regulate, obviously going back to South Africa and doing my kind of middle high school university. Played kind of fun year of high schools. Loved it at university and then, you know, never looked back. Um, but yeah, very, I very proud to be a Springbot fan, but I'll honestly say very annoyed with a lot of Springback fans.

As most of the other rugby world's fans are probably the last five, six years, but I'd say recently under Rassie Erasmus, he's done more good than bad. Uh, I think initially there were maybe some question marks, uh, but I do, I must say I do find some Springbok fans a bit annoying. 

Carl: He's, um, I think he's hit the now on the heads on the, on the gap in the market with rugby.

To be fair, his podcast is very, very good and obviously come out looking better from the Rising Sun. But documentaries, I think than obviously some have probably come out. Of the Six Nations documentary, to be fair. So, well, that's 

Steve Noble: the thing. I mean, if you think for me still the, the Pinnacle Rugby documentary was the, [00:04:00] even as a South African fan, was at Lions series in South Africa, which the Lions won.

And I remember being, I think I watched the Sharks pay the Lions in the midweek game. I didn't watch any of the tests when I was living there, but that documentary was phenomenal. Series you just mentioned about, um, you know, Rui and what the spring box have done have been the next best thing I think in terms of rugby documentaries.

But you're right, I think he had his worst moments from maybe doing the most recent Lions series. You know, it's crazy that win another Lions year, but I think he even acknowledged he made mistakes in terms of how he went about things. But everything else, he's always been a maverick. Uh, he was a phenomenal player and as a coach, he's got a long history of people know about the crazy things he is done, but he is, he is innovative and like you said, the podcast, the documentaries, I think you're gonna struggle to find a coach of his calibre who taps into motivating players and has scored more than him like he is.

Yeah. He stands alone in that regard. And again, with [00:05:00] the confusing and complicated background that South Africa has, that's really difficult. So for him to have got that right, I mean I, yeah. That he deserves all the prudes he gets. 

Carl: Yeah. Completely agree. While we're on the subjects of the lines, then.

From outside in, what's your, what's your opinion? Who's gonna win? What's, gonna happen? 

Steve Noble: It's amazing how rugby changes so quickly. Um, a year ago, I would've said like, Lions are gonna win this three nil. And as soon as Schmidt was appointed, I. I said two things. I said the lion's gonna be more interesting and I think Schmidt might win a Bledisloe 'cause his date has changed a couple times.

Determine when he is leaving that Bledisloe. Might not happen. But I think it's gonna be a much tighter line series. It's gonna be good for me as a neutral to watch. I am as interested in those midweek games as the tests they always are. Yeah. Amazing. Brilliant. 

Carl: Great fun. And 

Steve Noble: then, and again there is an Asian connection there because they announced, uh, is Les Kiss is gonna coach that um, kind of [00:06:00] Oz specific team.

I dunno where that falls. And Zach, is it the 

Carl: and Anzac or Yeah. Anzac Team or whatever it is. Yeah, I think they're all about bringing Michael Hooper back in for, to be captain. I think that'd be a great call. There's 

Steve Noble: a whole, I think last the rumor mill, there's about half a dozen players who play in Japan that are rumor to be selected.

But you're right, Hooper, you look at the likes of Richie Moga, Shannon Frizzell, there's some quality players that might be brought in. So again. I, I'm looking forward to that Lion series. Um, I mean, the last one, yes, South Africa won, but it was the worst Lion series ever just 'cause of the COVID conditions.

So I hope this one brings back that magic. 'cause I still think the Lion Series is the best rugby tour there is. Um, yeah, we've, you know, it's well known that how many generations of players don't even get to feature in it. 'cause you know, obviously from a southern hemisphere point of view, you get them every 12 years or whatever it is.

So you have these entire generations of players that never get the chance. So it's gonna be amazing. This, this kind of [00:07:00] summer of rugby, 

Carl: obviously. Uh, one probably, we obviously we've been sort of chatting about it in the WhatsApp group and stuff. Darcy Graham missing out on the lines. What's, what's your opinion?

'cause I think that is a big, big call. 

Steve Noble: It's, it's so tough when you start dissecting these selections because his strike rate's phenomenal. He is also that new breed of. I'm not gonna call him small, but this, this new breed of amazing finishes. I mean, every team has them now. It's crazy that whatever, five, six years ago, it was all about the bulk and the size.

And now you can't not have these magic wingers in the teams again. So I feel for him, but then again, you start breaking things down, like who would he replace and look at the depth they have. Uh, especially in the outside backs and wings. We know there's gonna be injuries. 'cause there always are. And you'd think he'd probably be first in the pecking order in terms of replacing someone.

Um, it's tough though, like even I put the back on you. Like who would your starting wings [00:08:00] be? I think that in a few positions the lions are blessed with or depth. There's a few other ones where I think they're a bit short. 

Carl: I wouldn't have taken James Lowe, to be honest, eight, nine year, however long ago he was wearing a all black top when he effectively, so like, I think Darcy's been at hard done by there.

I I, I'd have picked Darcy Graham just for his straight rate, even just to take on the. The binge juice team. They're like the midweek team, as you said, that having him there and his strike rate's gonna be phenomenal. But I've got a, I've got an episode lined up with Hugh, uh, in the, in the coming weeks to go through that one.

So I think I'll probably save all my opinions for Hugh. 'cause yeah, 

Steve Noble: he's gonna probably have a few hand grenades as well. Well, how many more Welsh players is he gonna want for that squad? I mean. The thing, obviously if you, if you definitely get into the weeds of it with you in a few weeks time. But the one thing I would say is obviously these coaches, when they do these selections, are looking beyond just the players' skillset and ability, that ability to gel off the field [00:09:00] on such a, I mean, this is still the longest tour there is, right?

There's no longer tour than Alliance series, so you need players who you want in that changing room. If you're not selected in the 23, you're still giving everything to support those players. All those things have to be ticked off. So not to say that Darcy doesn't tick those boxes, but I mean there's all those considerations that have to go on.

I mean, that's such a tough, such a tough coaching gig. Like good luck to him. I mean, it's gonna be a good series 

Carl: because they, uh, I think Scotland are off to South America for their sort of summer tour. So does Darcy go on there? 'cause that's gonna be, is it gonna be easier to get across from South America to the lines if he gets called up or is it.

Interesting one to balance there. I think so, yeah. Um, right. Cambodia then, as you said, you started a sort of a grassroots vets team, whatever it is now, it's developed. How did that, 10 years ago, how was grassroots rugby in Cambodia? Or [00:10:00] did you effectively start grassroots rugby Cambodia? No. How did that come around?

Steve Noble: It's, uh, it's one of those heartbreak stories actually. 'cause I never, I, I moved to Cambodia after having lived in New Zealand and Australia without having a real plan in mind. Arrived here, I was traveling and I loved the place and I still do a lot of opportunity. Obviously it has a very, um, recent dark history with the genocide, but it's really come a long way.

Yeah. So when I arrived. I did not expect to find rugby as I think a lot of expatriates in the region. But when I did find rugby, I was amazed how much history there is. So there is a French colonial element, so there has been rugby here in parts over the years. But when I arrived, uh, there was a domestic, uh, four team league.

Uh, so four sides were playing. They, that was fifteens rugby. They had seven competitions, they had a competition. Is that 

Carl: low? The, is that the top league sort of thing? So grassroots is effectively their top league. Is that kind of where 

Steve Noble: Yeah, it, the rugby, it's all [00:11:00] social. This was going back a decade, like when I arrived.

It's very social. Um, they did a, the Cambodian Federation at the time were better organized. They were doing grassroots initiatives with, uh, NGOs. Um, 'cause there are a lot of kids there who obviously are underprivileged and what a good way to keep them busy and get them involved in a sport that does teach us.

So those right values, but also they, they did a good job at growing it. Kids that they had four adult teams, sevens a national team. I think when I arrived, national team of memory had just gone to play a test match against Brene or Pakistan, which again amazed me. And then a few weeks later they were hosting a test match here and I was sitting in a stadium.

They have a stadium here called an Olympic stadium, although they've never hosted the Olympics, but it's a massive 50,000 seat stadium. Wow. Watching really not, not, not that many fans watching the game, but I mean, it's crazy. You're in this like environment. But a lot of things just went backwards since then.

And [00:12:00] it's when we was, myself and a, a, a friend of mine, a French guy who was the first pre president called Fabian, started the club, which was called the Phnom Penh Social Rugby Club. Uh, our nickname is The Rahus. But it really started because we could already see some of the writing was on the wall, the federation.

For the better part of seven or eight years has done nothing in fighting politics. There's no national representation. They've been kicked out of Asia. Rugby allowed back in. It's like it's as messy as it can get. So recently our men's team, 'cause since we pre COVID we had a women's team, a men's team, we were doing some coaching at youth level and we had a lot of vets who played, uh, in the region and these tournaments, COVID kind of killed off a lot of things.

So our player numbers obviously dropped, I think as a lot of X back clubs did. So now we do have a men's team, no women's team. So there's an amazing little tournament. I do love finding out about these crazy tournaments around the world. It's called the Indochine Cup. And the way it works is that there's [00:13:00] clubs in Ho Chi Minh and Hanoi and Vietnam ourselves.

Yeah. There used to be clubs in Myanmar, which obviously stopped since the conflict. And in la Yeah. And the way the the tournament works is it goes clockwise in terms of rotation. So you might only get it every four or five years. Right? And then all those teams will go and play a weekend. It's great fun.

Um, and this past weekend our team, which is now 60, 70% local players, won three of the four games, missed out on points, difference of the final and then came third overall. So then you have these little like grassroots and moments of like pure joy when there's a federation literally doing nothing. So it's like a real, uh, passion driven, I suppose, club.

Uh, 'cause there is no support from a, a federation point of view, which is disappointing 'cause that means because there is a federation, we are limited to what we can do. We can't get world rugby training courses 'cause it has to go through a federation which is non-functioning. So [00:14:00] it's just a right, it's like I said, it's the saddest story and at the end of the day, it's the local players who have for a long time missed 

Carl: out.

It seems to be a bit of a shit show Steve to be probably fair, but not. Um, uncommon in rugby. Really? 'cause it's, it's not just there is it, what's your, obviously your sort of debrief of the overview of Asia rugby because you guys are on the precipice of something potentially very special with, there's a fair expat community going through sort of Asia rugby that could potentially develop it into something even bigger.

There's a big raft of players. And I need to ask you about the demographic of players as well. 'cause when I had Keanu, I'm from, uh, India, uh, rugby, he was saying that different regions had different strengths and stuff. I'm, I'm sure that's probably similar to, to Asia as well. But as an overview, what is the biggest, biggest issues with the way that Asia?

Is it just [00:15:00] the rumor that everyone says it's corrupt? 

Steve Noble: I mean, I think you nailed it when you said it. It it's a shit show and that often, and I was having this, there's a constant theme when it comes to rugby being a shit show. We can also say that in light of the recent world rugby stuff that's happened with the sevens, so much of it for me is about egos and people trying to stay relevant to when they should move on.

And that's not said with disrespect to people that have brought us to where we are. But in Asia in particular, I've been one of the most outspoken on my website, but nothing's even been emotional, personal. I kept it very professional and journalistic calling out the governance issues of Asia rugby. They are, there's so many issues and I have a lot of sources that even pass me.

Information, confidentiality in, in terms of what's going on, correspondence between the unions and the Asia rugby presidents. And like you said, it's, it's embarrassing and at the end of the day we have an Asia rugby president who [00:16:00] is egotistical. If you follow the Asia rugby socials, nine out of 10 posts are him front and center, awarding some trophy or handshaking someone.

It's so irrelevant to the actual issues in the game. And what's happened more recently is the region has now been split and I've heard rumors that there are unions pushing for potential split of the region. Now there's reasons why it wouldn't happen. 'cause I believe from a world rugby point of view, they wouldn't be against it.

It has happened before. I think something similar happened in Central North America, but world rugby might say you can split, but the same funding as now is gonna be available and you have to divide it in two. I think some unions would actually be okay with that. We're stepping outta the shadow of the current leadership.

Um mm-hmm. But how realistic that is. I don't know. Just the past weekend, a new Southeast Asia Rugby Federation was formed. It's not a legal entity, but it's, it's all the southeast [00:17:00] Asian nations have formed a block because they want to have their voices better heard and get more rugby going. 'cause a lot of those countries as well are being denied opportunities to play, uh, Asia rugby, uh, fifteens tournaments because there's just no pathway or structure.

Like a lot of my information comes when I go to the sevens tournaments, which we we're lucky that in, in Asia we have Dubai, Singapore, and Hong Kong. And a lot of information. Yeah. A lot of business gets done and a lot of conversations get, get, you know, are are had. Man, this last six months, it was just, I've never seen it so tense.

Uh, and like you said, it's politics, it's egos. Asia Rugby leadership. I'm not gonna say they're all bad people, but that governing group has been called out by financial audits, which World Rugby issued. There's been correspondence from World Rugby to put in checks and balances, and at no stage did Asia rugby apologized.

They kind of. Went the other way and said, no, you're wrong. And kind of like tried to [00:18:00] argue with an official audit and with directions from world rugby and that's where we are. Like how do you respect an organization that has that kind of leadership and that reputation? 

Carl: Well, the sounds of it. You've got a president that would turn up to the open, another bag of crisps just to keep himself in front of it.

Steve Noble: That that's the parody. And that's so true. Like we literally laugh about it and he is not gonna like hearing this if he does. But I go to tournaments where that's what gets said. Like he, he literally rocks up for the day of the reto opportunity and he is off on a plane somewhere else. And it's like, what was, what was the point?

Like a, where is that money coming from? 'cause that's also never been revealed. And B, like there's better ways to spend your time, like stop the useless photo opportunities and actually get stuck into the things that need to get fixed. 

Carl: Sounds like he's got an easy one. Just walks around with a, with a trophy in his pocket and just turns up, gallivant around.

But so that's obviously gonna be a serious hampering for, for rugby Asia obviously. Putting that aside, what are the [00:19:00] positives? What is the positives of rugby Asia? 'cause there's gotta be loads. 

Steve Noble: Yep. For, for everything I've just said. And I, that's why I love doing what I do with my websites and what we've been doing with all things rugby.

There's so many great stories in the region now. Look for all the criticism I've just given. Asia rugby leadership, it's probably the most complex and largest diverse area in the world to try and implement any types of change. Uh, you have so many. Obstacles. I get that. But that also means there's amazing stories.

You know, you have. Yeah. 

Carl: Um, 

Steve Noble: there's been incredible growth in the region in women's and girls rugby, which I know has been a story that's been tacked on a lot, but it's genuinely happening. I don't believe all the day-to-day release player numbers I think are growing. And again, that's not probably true in the rest of the world.

I was on a podcast with Hugh talking about the growth of the Japan Rugby League won. It's a league, a professional, semi-professional league that's expanding. So you have all these positives. This year, obviously it's a big year. Now we're gonna get stuck into this, but for the first time ever, we're [00:20:00] gonna have a second Asian men's team heading to a World Cup in 2027.

We've got Japan going to the Women's World Cup later this year. And they're, they're, they're, yeah, they're far too good for the region now. And that is an issue for them and for the teams just behind them because they're not playing enough competitive games. But there's so much positivity. A lot of it's led, I think, by passionate grassroots initiatives.

And to back to the question you asked earlier about expats coming in and Cambodia's a good example that I think Indonesia's had that. Now there's often been instances where it may have been an expats who've set it up, but in the right cases they've set it up to have a foundation to hand over to local people to take the game forward.

And that's so critical and there's too many times where it's old school expats who want to control and hold onto something they've started who seem to think rugby is something they can possess and it's not. Mm-hmm. So I can, I could spend all day, [00:21:00] every day interviewing people in the region that are just phenomenal in terms of what they're doing from really changing cultural barrier, cultural viewpoints, uh, overcoming discrimination, trying to turn the game professional in certain places where it's Right.

You've got the rugby Premier League sevens starting in India next month, which is unique. Yeah. Um, you've got, I think, probably the best. Domestic sevens women's league in the world in Japan, and they've keep, every week for the last few weeks they've been signing more international players. That series kicks off in June, but my last counts, they've already had 15 players from other countries signed to go play for those domestic Japanese cots.

So I said that there's, there's grassroots everywhere. There's so much happening. But yeah, there's a lack of funding. They need more support. We know rugby is struggling with money everywhere, but if there was one region where if it was controlled properly and financed properly, I think you'll [00:22:00] get the best returns in Asia.

Carl: Well, yeah. You obviously look at the, the population to return as well is, is potential, is is phenomenal because as we, as we touched on the women's as well, Japan have obviously accelerated away, but Kazakhstan probably really fell off as well. So I was, when I, we had Simon Middleton on the other, the other, other week, a few weeks ago, he.

Said about, he went over to Kazakhstan to do some sort of world rugby consultancy stuff and at one point they were probably banging on the door, should we probably say. And now they've sort of disappeared off. And they got a bit of a pump in the other day from Japan, didn't they? It was what, 90 Neil or something like that?

Yeah, they um, they also have played two games against Georgia Women's in Georgia's first ever women's game as well. And I think Georgia put them to the sword a little bit as well in their first ever attempt at women's rugby. What has happened in Kazakhstan. Because there was a point that they were potentially gonna [00:23:00] be a significant power within women's rugby, weren't 

Steve Noble: they?

But I, I think they were, they went to every Women's World Cup until 20, was it 17? The one, the last one they had, I think pre COVID. Yeah. Um, they were every World Cup. Yesterday they lost to Hong Kong, China in the women's championship after being pumped by Japan, a Japan sea team. I will say that beat the 90 nil Hong Kong, China beat them yesterday in a much tighter game.

But that also is the fourth time Hong Kong, China had beaten Kazakhstan since the pandemic and that the first time they beat them was since the pandemic. And that's shown you the, the change in momentum. So now it's definitely Japan won by quite some distance. Hong Kong. China's in that second position, Kazakhstan's third, but then the problem is there's a huge drop off.

Who's knocking on the door if there was a promotion/relegation there hasn't been a division two tournament played for so many years now. But there are countries I think that could, like you have the likes of India, Philippines, Singapore, China should be playing it. [00:24:00] The powers that be in charge of the game.

We're keeping unions accountable. China's actually meant to field a fifteens team. That's how they meant, 'cause you have world rugby and Asia rugby membership status. You're meant to field fifteens and sevens. China hasn't fielded a fifteens women's team for years 'cause they've put all the money to sevens and they've had great success.

But it shouldn't be a matter of unions with the money to pick and choose. I think they should be held accountable and made to play. You know, you can't really force teams or unions to play if they don't want to, but it's part of their, part of their like, uh, status eligibility to be a full member as far as I understand.

So, but you're right. In terms of Kazakhstan, it's strange because it's also not an amateur setup. My understanding is their sevens program is professional. They, most of the sevens players play in their fifteens team. So you're right. Why has there been a massive drop off and the results show you that they've really have gone backwards until.

[00:25:00] Yesterday. So yesterday they, they lost off the top of my head was 29 12. The points they scored were the first international points in a test match They've scored for two years. 'cause last year they lost both Asia Rugby Champ Championship games by scoring zero the year before. Wow. They, they came second in the championship, went to the WXV, lost two of the WXV games by more than a hundred points to zero.

Like it's not a good TRA trajectory. Um, but yeah, they've got full camps, they've got full training facilities. They have former South African sevens player as their sevens and fifteens coach. Like I, I really don't know why they've gone so far backwards so quickly. And at the team I watched yesterday, they still had their World Cup veterans from nearly 10 years ago playing.

And then on the other end of the spectrum, I think they had five or six players who were 20 years or under. But at that's a. That's a big gulf, you know, like massive, huge. Um, yeah, I, I just think unfortunately for them as well, [00:26:00] Japan has really street to head and Hong Kong, China have really developed their women's game much better than previously, and they've just been left behind.

But again, if you had to ask me, would any of those other contenders that I mentioned, your India's, you know, Singapore is, would they beat Kazakhstan? Probably not. 

Carl: Jumping back to the China comment you made about them opting for the sevens instead of the fifteens. If they were forced to field a fifteens team because of their status, but they just fielded 18, that was not good enough.

Does that then run the risk of bringing the game into like a bit of a disrespect and a disrepute by only having, having to feel a team? It does. They don't feel that their team is good enough. Is that is, I know it's not how it should be done and they should be, they get funding to develop the whole process, but.

The last thing we want to do is dilute the game as it grows, and obviously Kazakhstan are struggling [00:27:00] to field both projects. Sevens is probably their main focus again, and they're just obviously going through the motions because of the funding of the fifteens. And they probably feel that if they opted to not field it, they wouldn't get the funding.

Do you, do you think there's an element of that in there as well? Yeah, I mean, this 

Steve Noble: is the, this is the issue that Asia rugby, if I had to defend them have, because again, I'm going by the information I was given to have full member status with Asia rugby as the regional governing body and world rugby. As a full member, you're supposed to do certain requirements, which includes having a domestic sevens league, a domestic fifteens league, and men and womens.

So China's opting not to play fifteens. It's a choice, but yeah, you can't force them to either, unless there's a bit of a carrot and stick. You know, there could be an element of like. Look, you need to feel the team within the next two years, otherwise your full member status will be revoked. It's never gonna happen because China's too important as [00:28:00] a potential target region for both world rugby and Asia rugby.

We've seen it with success they've had of the A of the Chinese Women's seventh team who've had a fantastic run this last 12 months. So there's no individuals strong enough in terms of governance point of view in world rugby, Asia, rugby. They gonna make China do it. And would China listen, who knows? And you're right.

You don't wanna also force teams. There could be a whole, what if injuries happened because of, uh, under strength teams. I get all those arguments, but like, I don't think it's fair that teams can necessarily pick and choose, um, or they need to change those member status criteria and just make it less stringent and just be realistic with like, this is where we are.

Rather than trying to, you know, the whole whole, uh, square peg in a round hole. Let's make things work for 2025. 

Carl: Yeah. With a, with a target for development potentially as well. Rather than, well say like, this is what you got to do to work towards a full membership. If you don't have a full membership, you have X, Y, and Z.

But it probably, it fills an another [00:29:00] element of rugby of where we are playing with what worked once will work constantly and we, we've kind of gotta move with the time. If China finally pulled their finger out their ass a little bit and thought, right, actually we're gonna go full gun-ho at rugby properly with their player base, how much do you think.

Think they could make an impact on rugby Na, internationally and, and obviously with their own, obviously they've done it in the football, threw some money at it, obviously managed to get every player from everywhere coming across 'cause they were throwing money around. Is that the next big market? I know everyone bangs on about America and it make America great again and the MLR is gonna be the next big thing.

And if we break America, rugby saved. Do you agree? 

Steve Noble: I would rather, I think, see the growth in China than the us. There's no, I can't really even justify that, but I just think China does throw a lot of money into their sevens programs. Like it's crazy. I mean, their [00:30:00] Men's Sevens team are in tour in Europe at the moment preparing for the age of seven series, which doesn't happen for another four months.

They're playing tournaments. I think they're 

Carl: cost, cost of Blanker Sevens this week. Yes, I'm over there actually. So 

Steve Noble: they're there this weekend there. 

Carl: Nice. 

Steve Noble: And the last two weekends they played in the uk and that knew, that's uh, seven super series. They did the same thing last year. I mean, they've had, they've thrown money at high profile coaches I think for the last four years.

I think I, four years ago, the current Fiji men's coach was the China women's coach. Then they went to the gala likes of like Dan Norton that has been in the mix. They've had, uh, sir Gordon Hitchens has been looking after their sevens womens and more recently men's, they've got another former all black sevens player, uh, Rocky Kahn who's fantastic in the women's.

So again, it's not like they're not throwing money at it and it's not like they don't have a budget for it. When you see them go and tall, they've got a more analysts and equipment going with them than most most countries in an Asia [00:31:00] can afford. So I think it's not a money issue, it's purely 'cause the Olympic medal and are playing in the Olympics is such a big carrot for them.

So great. There's motivation for them to put money into it there. I think if they actually focused on fifteens, they would definitely be knocking on the door, knocking over teams like Kazakhstan. Maybe not Hong Kong, China anytime soon, but there'd be a, there'd be a real threat and it would just be good for the region to have another competitive team at that level.

The men's team are just gonna struggle, uh, the same as they do on the men's seven circuits. They, they, they're not as competitive on a global scale, just 'cause the men's game has. Moved on so much further. It's the reality of it. But I think in the women's side, yeah, I think if they took that 15 seriously, I mean it's funny, the China Women's Sevens team last season was phenomenal.

They cleaned up the, the, the three legs of the Challenger series. I think they lost one game across all three legs, which was in the first leg. Then they codified for the Olympics, had the best ever finish at the Olympics. [00:32:00] Sixth, off the top of my head, they beat Core Sevens teams, qualified for the seven series, did all that hard work to get there and then didn't play their best players all year because they have their own domestic national games, which are deemed more important than playing on the World seven series.

And that's where I get earlier when I said there's so many challenges in the region. So like their top tri score I think played at one of the legs, all seven series because they're arresting keeping players back. For their national games, which hasn't even started yet. So they could have played this whole time.

It's only happening a few months from now. But they chose not to play those players. That's the kind of, they probably 

Carl: didn't, it's runs of injuries. But do you think there's an element of, people have lost respect for the seven series as well through obviously world rugby now changing it, throwing that hand grenade into the mix.

Everyone knew it was the world's worst kept secret. Everyone knew it was coming. Um, do you think some of these programs have fought well, if they're not gonna get behind it, [00:33:00] why do we need to put our best players at risk? 'cause it's, we are not gonna be part of it moving forward. I think outside of Asia, that's 

Steve Noble: probably true.

I think in Asia Sevens are still in. It's still the biggest vehicle for rugby developments because they get their funding through the Olympic committees. Very little of the money comes to the unions otherwise. So they need that funding. It's easier to grow the game through sevens. Uh, I think some of the stereotypes for me are ridiculous, where people say, oh, seven suits.

Agent teams. Agent teams 'cause of body types. 'cause believe me, there's some massive people across this multi-billion dollar continent. So like even in Japan, you know, people talk about the Japan League. One saying, oh, it's a bit softer, it's not as physical. I'm like, I don't know how many of those people actually watch the games.

So I think there's some stereotypes that need to be shrugged off as well. But I think in Asia it's still important for a lot of these unions to be on that world stage. I still think I. We don't know what's gonna happen, obviously [00:34:00] next series in terms of where it's gonna be played and you know, the island debacle and it's just layered upon layered of bad decisions.

But I mean, Hong Kong Sevens is still the mecca for sevens globally, and I think Dubai Sevens is probably second best. So you still have two of the best events in the region and I've, I've seen so many people on Twitter who I think are really ill, ill-informed and ignorance when they start talking about, oh, scrap sevens, who needs it?

It's diluted in the region, those two tournaments I mentioned. And you also have Singapore, where the community rugby events around the sevens are some of the biggest rugby events they have in the calendar. In Hong Kong, outside of the Hong Kong tournament, there's a social tournament called the Kon Rugby Tens.

A very high tournament in the Hong Kong football club. Tens, there's a schools tournament, there's an all girls tournament. There's a million clinics and charity dinners that go on. Like they can't put a value on it just by what happens on that playing field. It's all the [00:35:00] things around there. And I mean, the last two sevens in Hong Kong, the last one at the old stadium and the first one at the new Tak Stadium when Hong Kong, China was playing China on that field.

And I've been to World Cups and test matches and things around the world. Some of the best atmosphere I've ever experienced in my life. Like literally really unbelievable. And how else would you get local crowds that excited about local rugby? You, you wouldn't if those events didn't happen. Yeah. So I think when people start pulling apart, um, that Rugby Sevens is not as important or not as useful, I think they're really ill informed.

I'm a big. Advocate and I think the last few weeks have just been terrible from decision making. Again, governance point of view, like you said, worst kept secrets I was having, I wouldn't say it was a disagreement with Mike Friday on socials 'cause he has been very vocal and I agree with them. But my only point was I don't understand why everyone was so shocked when it was announced because everyone on the circuit [00:36:00] knew changes were coming.

Maybe we didn't know to the extent, but from like January immediately sitting at these events, that's all we were talking about. Like what's gonna happen? Oh, we know it's gonna be cuts teams and the timing of it from world rugby is probably the biggest mistake. If they had said this is gonna come into place in two seasons from now, I think teams would be less angry.

But the fact that it was done on the eve of the last tournament is what got so people so emotional and upset. 

Carl: So I was actually at the London City Sevens and Mike Friday was there and me and Mike were actually. Sort of discussing what it was before the announcement was out. So Mike sort of knew pretty much to the point how bad it was gonna be, and he's a future, future guest for, for the pod as well, hopefully.

So another really passionate man about seven's rugby as well. And he obviously clearly only wants the best for the game. I just, I don't, I, I think the game's lost a little bit, like obviously [00:37:00] Ireland again was also supposedly the world's worst kept secret that they would drop in the men's because they'd already sort of said it was coming towards an end and they'd, they'd obviously offered all the contracts to the women's fifteens to clearly develop that.

It's just odd that Rugby's got to make a decision to pick one over the other. And I think it's, Rachel Burford made a really good point. If the Women's Sevens had been cut to give more funding to the men's, there'd have been absolute uproar in society. It, it'd been everyone, there would've been pitchforks, burnings.

But because it's Men's Sevens, it seems to have just been swept under the rug because the women's fifteens needs to be respected a little bit more at a minute. And I think we've kind of lost our direction in rugby. Every aspect of the game is critical, not just one. 

Steve Noble: Yeah, I mean, I just, there's so many points you made.

No, there's so many points you made, I think. How long has it been a week since that news of the I and Rugby Sevens men's program being called and, [00:38:00] and this is again what I don't, I didn't disagree with what Mike Fre was said. I think him, Harry McNulty and all these people that have come out and been very verbal online are a hundred percent correct.

Yeah. And they also are doing the correct thing and pulling apart the reasons that are given. And that's important. Yeah. 'cause when they say it's financial and now there's about, I dunno how many posts I've seen where broken down the finances to show that it's not really financial. And this is part of the governance issue, the leadership issues we have with rugby generally.

Now the GM of. The HSBC, world seven Series. Uh, I, I quite like him and I know him, and I don't think he's doing these for the wrong reasons. These changes that have been brought in. Mm-hmm. Who knows what's happening behind the scenes in those negotiations. I think the formats changed. The worst part about it was when it was announced because that just, that just really screwed teams over.

I mean, even Mike Friday shared, um, Kenya Rugby's already written to the Africa Rugby presidents with their disappointments. It's just a shit show beyond [00:39:00] belief. The Irish thing is a little bit separate, but again, my point there, and you're a hundred percent correct from the first tournament I, I attended Dubai Sevens, Cape Town Sevens, Singapore Sevens, Hong Kong Sevens plus two Challenger events in Cape Town, at every single one were conversations that the I mens programs being scrapped.

So I. I, I, I agree with everyone being upset and emotional. I, I don't understand why it's like, did they have to wait for them to be an announcement before they could say angry things? Why didn't, why weren't these things being raised before it was announced? And it's not even picking on them, just like victim blaming, but I just think like all the emotional set sentiment that's being expressed online, uh, like you said, it was the worst kept secret.

Both of them. 

Carl: I think Harry McNulty nailed it though. There's a lot of NDA clauses and, and loopholes that are written into Irish contracts to make sure that nothing comes out. And it's basically, it's a silent shop. [00:40:00] And like if somebody got wind of that early, somebody would've probably lost their, because I think, what was it put out, Mike?

Mike put it out the other day was 350 grand is all that. The IRFU have to pay for that sevens project. Everything else is funded up to the point. 

Steve Noble: Was the former item captain or was it McNulty? He pointed out, and this is my same, it's the same. Blame I appointed Asia Rugby's leadership. All that money that they say needs to be saved.

Why are all these people flying business class? Why are they being kept in five star hotels? Why do we have all these ridiculous five star dinners and lunches and events like that? Part for me is unforgivable. Unforgivable. And I see it at Asia rugby level. I see it at world rugby level. I mean, even sometimes in the medias.

'cause world rugby has made a massive shift in terms of their staffing the last few years to align with this festivals. Devon Circuits, some of the conversations I've heard overheard from some of their [00:41:00] staff in the media rooms. Like I had to pinch myself. I mean, complaining about the five star hotels they're being put up in next to journalists or media who are literally, uh, know in a shoebox.

Yeah. Getting by with no budgets and, and when you hear the, and again, it, it's a little bit of a, it's an image. But it's also backed up by, if they release their full financial information, that what. You know, economy flights, or do they all have to stay in five star hotels? Like when I go to the Hong Kong, seven, Hong Kong and Singapore are crazy expensive no matter where you stay.

Yeah. And then you kind of look at where the brass are staying. You're like, well, did they have to stay in a place that's five, 600 US dollars a night? Like, it's ridiculous. 

Carl: Could be worse. They could be the Welsh Rugby Union who spend 50 grand a year on daffodils or whatever it was. So, uh, yeah, there's a, I think there's a clear spending problem in rugby, I think is probably the best option to put it.

Steve Noble: Who is it? New Zealand. [00:42:00] Australia. The one that shocked me the most, besides the daffodil one, which is amazing, is that's phenomenal. The, wasn't it the French? The French Rugby Federation made a loss of the World Cup. Now world rugby and the tournaments made a profit. I think it was their most profitable.

And obviously that depends on the deals they make. How on earth did they lose money on that? Like I was at that tournament for most of it. Games were packed. Again, France, I wouldn't say is the cheapest place in the world. Beers were expensive. How do you make a loss on that? Like that's where I'm like, I don't know.

Shouldn't they just make all these records public? And I, I just don't get it. I don't know how you make a loss on that tournament. That one for me, besides the daffodils or the two that stood out the most, 

Carl: we got loads to carry on here with. Right. I'm gonna jump back to the demographic bit Yeah. As well.

'cause I spoke to Keanu about India and there was different, India's massive, as we all know. So each region's got different strengths and stuff like that. If you were able to like, so I'm sure Cambodia's a bit [00:43:00] smaller. There's probably different, different areas that got different strengths and weaknesses.

There's probably quicker players and there's different demographics. China's obviously huge. If you, if they were able to develop a fifteens team, would they, and they based it on a similar model to India where it's based off regions rather than teams signing. Do you. Is there any one that would stand out in your opinion?

Because they, we've got, obviously we've got the, the India Sevens coming up soon, which could revolutionize sevens in the current climate. Imagine if you had a China Sevens in the similar model as well. Do you think there's any region that would stand out? 

Steve Noble: So China really has a very strong provincial setup for sevens.

That's pretty much how they do their pathway development for their national team. Uh, so the conversations I've had, so, uh, this is something I've mentioned repeatedly. Like even I, I've been covering the region five, six years. There's certain countries, they're just [00:44:00] more difficult to really understand behind the scenes what's going on and China's one of them.

Yeah. So there's a massive expat scene, which also was hit hard by the pandemic because so many of those clubs had, uh, expat teachers and obviously a lot of people left. Yeah. But there's things like, uh, there's a 15 domestic scene with a lot of clubs called the All China Cup. So they're predominantly expat players with a few Chinese players.

Um mm-hmm. They have tons of tens and sevens tournaments throughout the year. Now, from a Chinese rugby, football federation point of view, it's very provincial focused. And the tournaments I mentioned earlier, uh, at the Hong Kong football club, tens, it's probably the highest quality 10 rugby you'll see.

Like this year there were so many Olympians and players that went on to play sevens or fifteens rugby playing in that tournament. But they had a provincial team play in there called Shandong, and that is by far one of their biggest feeder, uh, provinces for the national team. Right. So they already have a setup.

They, the national games [00:45:00] I mentioned is based on their provincial. So provinces are playing each other. So that's why I say they got political behind the scenes 'cause provinces didn't wanna lease their players to the national team because they want to win the national games, which is a massive. You know, it ribbon in your suits, whatever you wanna call it.

Like it's an accolade they want to collect. It's not really a national interest, which is kind of ironic. Um, so yeah, India, like you said, has the same thing. And again, I think, I know that those spotlights being put in India 'cause of the upcoming RPL L sevens, which kicks off in a few weeks time. But there's an amazing amount of rugby that's played.

Um, at youth like age grade. They have, uh, national games, sevens, men's, uh, women's girls, like every second weekend there's a huge tournament with like 32 to 64 teams involved. So they've got the player base in India. And I think Rahul Bow, who is the president, has spoken about this in, in talking up the RPL that's coming up.

He's being quite realistic saying they don't expect [00:46:00] to qualify for like World seven Series Olympics anytime soon. But like it's a. 10, 12 year plan, whatever it is. Uh, but that provincial setup is in a lot of places. And the other thing I would say to that as well is, um, every country in Asia is very different, so it's difficult to paint with the same brush, but a lot of the stronger rugby unions in the region have rugby being played in the armed forces so that the Navy, army, et cetera, police will have teams where they won't call them professional, but end of the day they're training might be five days a week.

And it might be a, a commander or a general who likes the support that's funding it. We can see that in Thailand, China. Um, there's tons of countries where that happens. So I think, again, Cambodia is a prime example of if the, if the federation ever wanted to do anything besides sit in their but all day, it's get the local police, army, navy Air Force involved.

It keeps those. [00:47:00] Personnel fits, keeps 'em competitive and you can quickly have a national game set up just by having them compete with each other. 

Carl: Sounds, imagine, imagine that if the England teams could just rack all their, all their Army, army together and put 'em in like the premiership or something like that, just to, to throw it around, that'd be one different option, wouldn't it?

Steve Noble: But it's funny, imagine so there are, I think the last World Cup in, definitely in France, and I remember going to one of the World Cup, there is a like a World Cup of armed forces. Like a Rugby World Cup for Armed Forces teams? 

Carl: Yeah, there is, yeah. It usually 

Steve Noble: takes place around just before the World Cup men's takes place.

Unfortunately, it's not really well promoted, but you have like the New Zealand Maori, New Zealand French, British, south African teams competing. I've never seen the games. I imagine the quality's not gonna be that bad, but that's a good, it's a, it's just another opportunity of how you can spread the game.

I mean, even in Cambodia, I've got a shield behind me. We had a naval ship from New Zealand, dock of Cambodia pre COVID. We reached out to them from our social [00:48:00] club and said, Hey, you're gonna be unsure a couple of days. Do you wanna maybe Fair Game gonna or something? They loved it. 'cause we had a, a hung and a bride and a barbecue on the beach playing touch rugby with all these, uh, naval personnel.

They gave us a trophy as a thank you. It's just a, it's just a great ways of spreading the game. And I mean, that's just one avenue, but there's so many ways in which you can spread the game without making it a big, expensive ordeal. It's just playing and having, you know. It's kind of, uh, extending the other branch between places as well.

Carl: They've, uh, they've obviously just done the Army Navy back in England as well, so that's the first weekend of May every time. So that's always a really big day. And then obviously you've got the lead up, you've got all the other, you've got the under 23, so there is, there is an underbelly of it, but I think it'd be really interesting to see if you could throw one of those teams into the championship or something like that in England.

That'd be quite interesting to see how that would throw into the mix. Yeah. Obviously no promotion relegation, 'cause obviously the RFU don't like that, so. Right. I think it's [00:49:00] time to go to one of our questions that we've got. Yep. We've got Ruffie's rugby offload friend of the pod. He is obviously based in Dubai.

UAEI believe. Well, I spoke to him the other day. He's a, an ex-player, two, uh, two knee replacements now. He's, uh, he's, he's, he's battered the storm, should we say, but he's, uh, he's tried to. Banger drum as well in the region as you guys. So he said, he's put in the question, rugby is growing in the Middle East quite well.

What are the major hurdles the region is facing to get that next level of a Hong Kong, uh, Hong Kong team or Spain slash Portugal level? I think there's probably a few more levels to that question than just to what we've put there, because I don't think Hong Kong are anywhere near a Spain or a Portugal yet.

I think we've obviously probably covered a few of the major hurdles that are already in the region. What's your opinion of what, how, how do you sort of digest that? Because I don't think Hong Kong, China era [00:50:00] anywhere near a Spain or a Portugal at the minute. Yep. But I don't think that's far off potentially.

Do you agree? 

Steve Noble: So yeah. Let me start, maybe let's start with the Middle East Gulf first. Yeah. And we could talk about Hong Kong, China. 'cause we can also then talk about World Cup qualifications. Huge question. So. In the region. So it's funny this week, um, it's also historic. So Bahrain men's fifteens are playing their first ever test match on Friday against Jordan and I spoke to them.

Yeah. Uh, war. War Drummond, who's a ex rugby journey man, who's played all over the place as the director of rugby. Yeah. And they're very excited about that. And he made some really good points saying to the issues that I raised, there's no kind of division two even for the men's in Asia. So how do you com, how do you get into the top bracket if you're not given an option?

It's even worse than I think in Europe where there should be reation promotion in six nations. Here, there isn't even an option of getting into the top brackets. So Bahrain's [00:51:00] playing their first men's fifteens game. Uh, Qatar has played a couple of times in regional competitions. UAE are the strongest of the bunch.

And last year were a bit of a surprise package 'cause they were runner up in the Asia Rugby men's Championship. They beat Korea. They've done really well coming. Got a really good, again, uh, I don't know what his official title is, but, uh, Apollo Perini, who's a former jewel code mm-hmm. International leads, uh, and is the head coach or the, the head of the program in UAE.

So those are the main ones to pick out. Saudi Arabia is doing more rugby. They had their first women's game this last year. They've got a domestic men's league. Uh, UAE has a domestic league, uh, uh, which includes the team from Bahrain, which funny, their national team or Bahrain, just to go back to that, it's a one club team.

There's only one club in Bahrain and they're pretty much gonna represent the national team. Um, so there is a lot of rugby in the region. UAE is the closest now in their favor is finances. Now we know that world Rugby's, you know, like a, like a beat [00:52:00] towards honey. He is suddenly, you know, getting excited about the opportunity of hosting all kinds of tournaments in the region, which brings a whole bunch of baggage, which the people will cups have to deal with already.

But there's money, uh, from what I've seen in Bahrain and UAE and other places, Qatar, they've got fantastic facilities. The grounds, uh, you all these plus points obviously. Then there's the weather issue 'cause it's very hot. You have to play a certain time of the year or nighttime. Uh, but the biggest issue UAE is their, even their sevens men's, a women's team has done well the last couple of seasons.

But why, I'm gonna say their men's were a surprise team because they only recently joined the top tier to beat Korea, who had been the perennial runner up to Hong Kong. Since Japan stopped playing tournaments was a big surprise. Now all these countries, because this year is a World Cup qualification year, have started to add more test matches.

And that's been the biggest hurdle outside of the Asia Rugby Championship. They don't play, so [00:53:00] you can't play one tournament a year and expect to go anywhere. So in November, uh, UAE played their first ever November test twice. They hosted Zimbabwe and then they're hosted Germany and uh, Zimbabwe went to go on a tour.

Korea. So again, we're getting more test matches in the region. At the same time, Hong Kong, China, which is the team all these men's teams are chasing, went on a South American tour and they hosted Brazil twice at the end of the year. So at the end of the day, all these teams playing more rugby outside against teams outside of the region is the biggest caveat.

That's important because it's never happened. Yeah. Or hasn't happened for a long time. So, to that original question, the only way they're gonna grow is they need to get more international exposure. U hasn't got a bad domestic league set up. It could always be better. And I think it's not consistent. Their teams drops come and go, and all these countries suffer from.

Expats have come and go, which answers the question of how do you grow it. You need to get [00:54:00] local citizens and local people involved from a grassroots level and plan for the next 10, 15 years if they are looking shortsighted. And it's all based on one passionate person who wants to drive the game. It's gotta fall to pieces.

Carl: I think that nails the next question that he also had. What effect does the transient nature of expats in the Middle East have on the rugby scene? It's, they don't stick around. Yeah, they don't stick around. Is that pretty much it? 

Steve Noble: Yeah, but it's, it's, but like I said earlier, so Indonesia was an example. I know it was set up by expats, but then taken or handed over to locals and it's been run by Indonesians, which is the way it should be.

It's why Cambodia hasn't worked. 'cause unfortunately there's a couple of French guys here just won't let go. Uh, Vietnam is going that direction. So Vietnam is a funny story. Again, they don't have a rugby federation. They have a new program called Do Yet. Where it's a Scottish guy trying to lead it, but his whole contingency is, or his whole planning is to hand it over.

I spoke to a great [00:55:00] guy in Singapore called Calvin Beige, bland, who's been involved in all levels of rugby. Again, he's talked. He's been involved in so much there, but all his planning was always about putting in place the foundation. So if he's not there tomorrow, it carries on without him. So all these places, and especially in the Gulf.

Yeah, I think too many times, you know, we put these people on a pedestal. We say, oh, what a great job. And they're the godfather of rugby in that country. Okay. But if they're not setting the blueprints and the framework and they're not getting local players involved and handing it over, it's just not gonna go anywhere.

Carl: Yeah. I think that's gonna obviously be the next, next step. Because the, the other issue that you've got is probably political tensions in the region. 'cause there's, there's, I think Qatar can't go and play in certain places. There was what Sri Lanka got issues and people can't play in there. There's this, there's that.

Saudi Arabia aren't even a world rugby member, is that correct? As well? [00:56:00] So they're um, not, I think they're an age had. Yeah, because that was part of the discussion around the, the joint well cut bid as well. 'cause obviously 2035 is potentially the Spain bid, UAE, Saudi and Qatar were looking at doing a joint bid for the same period.

I wrote an article about that. I think that's probably a cycle too early for them because Saudi Arabia wasn't even a well rugby member at the time of the bid. Whether they're in process, I don't know. Qatar have only played two game, two international games in the last X amount of years. UAE are probably the strongest one of them, and they've obviously appeared onto the RU Asia Rugby Championships and done pretty well.

But if those three automatically qualify for a World Cup U loses their space as well, is the other question. For free [00:57:00] Asia teams to automatically qualify two of them that have barely played rugby, UA e's probably the stronger one if that, if we set that target for 10 years time, I dunno how, how that physically works because they're not gonna be suddenly possible, are they?

Steve Noble: That joint bid from the Gulf is complicated. Um, to break it down simply, they're also targeting the same year that Japan wants to bid. And behind the scenes, Japan or JR. RFU and Asia rugby leadership are not on the best of terms and the fact that Japan already made it known they were going to bid and then for Asia rugby to back the bid from the region where they are based.

'cause you gotta remember, Asia Rugby's headquarters are in UAE in Dubai. That just reveals the level of. Political bullshit that's going on in the region. So there's that issue. But like you said, the biggest problem is, 

Carl: mm-hmm. 

Steve Noble: Those three countries might have the stadiums facilities, maybe enough fans would go there, who knows?[00:58:00] 

But you can't, it's not football. You don't get automatic qualification by hosting and rugby should never have that, in my opinion. And if those countries want as part of their bid to have automatic quantification, nevermind all the fan saga stuff from uh, alcohol sales, et cetera, which I just think the rugby fan base won't stand for.

There's just too many reasons for why it seems a bit of a novelty project. And again, I think part of that is the Asian president that I mentioned, I think he's putting a space on the front of this. Him and the CEO, who's actually a South African, have been talking up that bid and have never once acknowledged the potential bid from Japan.

And again. Where would I rather go to watch a World Cup of the moments I'd rather go watch in Japan than those three countries mentioned. 

Carl: Obviously Spain throwing their name in the ring as well. I think Japan will be the safe bid, uh, for world rugby. Uh, 'cause it's already been done. And obviously it'd be follow up from what, 16 years after the initial [00:59:00] one ob, selfish.

I prefer to see it in Spain. I think it would add a, another real string to the, to the next bow of, of, of the World Cup qualification process, which obviously we've got, is it November? It's, it's, it's happening is the next qualification stage where Belgium get the take on the South American African and, um, some of the, uh, the, the Asian teams that are able on the periphery.

Yeah. It's Hong Kong. Yeah. 

Steve Noble: So I don't think, I don't think they've announced where it is, but it's supposed to be end of the year. I know in where I am in the region, it's about to kick off and uh, the team that Wednesday's rugby Championship quarters automatically for World Cup, the team that's mm-hmm.

Second has to go play the runner up of the African Cup in Uganda, I believe in July. And the winner of that Yeah. Will join those teams you just mentioned. So there's still a few hurdles to go for a couple of the [01:00:00] teams. 

Carl: Mm-hmm. Obviously Hong Kong, China probably ban of to win the, the Asia championships effectively.

What's your opinion for the second then? I know obviously Hong Kong China will, we'll get onto in a minute 'cause we've got a Hugh Griffin question as well. He doesn't want any punches pulled, but. Second, second in the group. Are we, are we thinking it's a UAE attendance or Korea done a lot of work to resolve their, their situation?

Steve Noble: I'm having a quick look at the fixture list. 'cause I think it depends on who plays at home between UAE and Korea. Uh, so South Korea plays UAE at home, so I would say, say that favors them. I think UAE have done more, I think UAE this weekend, for example, are playing Kenya in a, I don't think it's a cat friendly international, they're calling it a warmup match.

But the fact that they're playing, they've been in camp, um, they, if [01:01:00] they're much fitter than they were last year, because even though they came second, last year, there were definitely fitness issues. But if they've worked on that mm-hmm. And they've been in camp, they're going to, they, they have some good players.

They've had some players who played at decent levels. Uh, you know, they're, they're now obviously qualified Emiratis, but they've played in South Africa and Europe, et cetera. Career is a bit of a mess, to be honest. They had a change of presidency in their leadership about two months ago, and the previous leadership had been there a long time, and everything I've seen since of the current leadership kind of leaves you scratching your head.

Seems like he's more sevens focused. They have talked for the longest time about having a professional fifteens league, which has never taken off. Uh, there's been lots of, uh, charters signed and complaints made between operations domestically, so I just get the impression they're in a mess internally. So they took a full touring or training [01:02:00] squad of about 30 players.

They were in camp in Japan for a long time, like three, four weeks. Yeah. Um, they've kind of had a domestic league, but they haven't had any warmup games against any one of any notes. So I'd say UAE gonna be better prepared and I. Could, again, upset Korea, but that game, I, it's gonna be a fascinating game. Um, there's some really good talents in both of those teams, but I think the UE from, I mean, let's see this weekend, they'll play Kenya if they take it seriously and get a decent result.

Uh, yeah, I'd back UAE to come runner up. The one we haven't talked about is Sri Lanka, but so they, they qualified for the top tier for the first time in more than a decade by beating Malaysia. Malaysia has been terrible in the Asian Rugby Championship since they've been in there. They've never won a game.

I think they, on average, conceded about 50 points. Unfit, unprofessional, got worse as it got on, unfortunately for them. So Sri Lanka fued them. Was looking very positive. They've just hosted a iconic two test [01:03:00] series by hosting the New Zealand under 85 kilogram team. They lost both games, a lot of fanfare, a lot of visibility, a lot of pats on the back, and as soon as that's all finished, it looks like it's all fallen into pieces.

The coaches already resigned, the players weren't getting paid, so now they're having these meetings and committees and it's just amazing. Again, it's, unfortunately, it's very on cue for the region, but they have just had a hit high and a low, and I just can't see how Sri Lanka is gonna be competitive in that series 

Carl: because they, they were pretty dominant in the, in the tier below to extent weren't, they obviously managed to do pretty good things, and I saw the under 25, under 85, sorry, they're 25,000 in attendance to one of the games.

Is that correct? It's 

Steve Noble: correct. Both stadiums, they played out, were absolutely packed, sellouts, literally people, the rafters people were climbing on them, whatever they could see in the game. Wow. So it's two things. It's, it's okay. Credits to the All [01:04:00] Blacks. But for, it's, so, Graham Henry was the mastermind behind this, and he's a, been a big, uh, vocal fan of driving under 85 kilogram, which I'd never heard about before.

I had, I lived in New Zealand for a while. It's the first time I heard about it, so I never heard about it since. But it, it's, it's, it's done said it did all these wonderful things, great exposure, great social media, you know, for the influences. They got their billions of clicks. Fantastic. But it just fell apart so quickly afterwards.

Um, because in Sri. I don't know. To say it's strong is fair, but it's incredibly popular. They've got a great school system, great club system. Uh, they played attractive brand of rugby, lots of things to like, but they've been out in the wilderness for a long time, partly 'cause of politics. They were all suspended by Asia rugby.

They're in a bit of, they're still under, I think, review for being kicked out or admitted. So who knows what's gonna happen, but they need to [01:05:00] consistently stay in this top level. They need to sort out their financing and pay their coaches or players or whatever agreement they wanna come up with. But because they definitely have enough, I mean, they must have one of the biggest rugby player bases in the region.

Mm. Um, schools, rugby there at one point was crazy. Like you'd have 15, 20,000 go to school games like you would see. Wow. Where else in the world? Maybe in South Africa. Like it's, it's, yeah, that's, yeah. That's the, the highs of Sho Lanka rugby and the lows all within a short amount of time 

Carl: seems to just be a common situation, especially in Asia rugby.

They've done it like you could, you're on the way to the moon and then somebody's just of Yeah, yeah. It's bonkers. Right. So we need to get onto Hong Kong, China then. Yep. So obviously Q was, uh, it put it, put it out on Twitter. He wants your brutally honest opinion about Hong Kong China. So this is either gonna go one way or the other.

You're either gonna be banned from everywhere and [01:06:00] or supported. So let's, uh, let's throw it a hand grenade. Let's go. 

Steve Noble: I have to be careful what I say 'cause I do a lot of content partnership with the union and I do know them well and I've just got an or interview with the coach and the captain recently.

Now what do I think? I think they will win the championship. I think they'll qualify for their first ever World Cup and I think. All the positives that will lead to are worth it no matter what results happen at the World Cup. Now people might criticize me for whatever reason. That's fine. If you look at what a Chile did at the World Cup, or if you look at what a Portugal have done, that's the kind of position I think Con Con Hong Kong China finds themself in.

I think if, if they find themselves playing on the biggest stage, it's gonna lead to more commercial partnerships. You're gonna have a uptick in players. You're gonna have more local Hong Kong players getting involved. I think they have a lot of fringe players who are around the world that are Hong Kong China eligible, who might say, mm-hmm.

Yes, [01:07:00] please. So there's, I'll love a bit. Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why I think it's, it's a good thing. Now there's a couple of things also that's happened behind the scenes, and I can say this publicly, it's out there already. Um, so at beginning of this year, they have now, for the first time, had a small group of full-time contracted players.

In view of the championship with the World Cup being at stake. So they've got, I don't know how many, let's say it's less than 20, but full-time training coached, they went to the Brobie Academy and had a warmup game. Next week they go to Japan. Okay. And play the Japan XV team and a warmup game. So they're gonna be the best prepared of all the teams playing.

And I've heard that if they do qualify for the, if they win the championship, qualify for the World Cup, they're gonna expand possibly that contract base where they're gonna have a full squad, maybe hybrid contracts, maybe full paid. 'cause I don't think they can actually match some of the salaries that big corporates will pay in Hong Kong to be [01:08:00] fair.

But they, if they have available to them, a group of players that are committed for the next two years, who knows what's gonna happen. And also the reward for, I'm assuming as soon as you're qualified for the World Cup, world Rugby has responsibilities to give you more international game time. 'cause that's what they've lacked.

So I think they'll win the championship. I think they'll qualify for the World Cup. Yeah. Realistically they might not get any wins at the World Cup, but it's kind of a stepping stone. Right? I mean the best, the best example of that radio is Japan. They had that record lost against New Zealand five six World Cups ago.

And then the last two World Cups, they've had some, well, and two of the last three World Cups, they've had some really big wins. Like you need to be playing on that world stage to have the opportunity. Right. 

Carl: Completely agree. 'cause I'm just looking at the, the rugby, the qualifier base that we're gonna, so we're gonna have, so we're gonna have the South American Rugby Championship third place take on [01:09:00] against South America slash Pacific Playoff Loser.

Belgium obviously fill the Rugby Europe Gap. Africa Asia playoff. So Rugby Africa, men's 2025, runner up against the men's championship runner up. Who are we looking at for the, probably the, I dunno, do you know much about the African setup as well? Yeah, so Namibia has obviously been, so we've 

Steve Noble: got, in the past, we've got Al 

Carl: Algeria, ive Ivory Coast, Kenya, Namibia.

Senegal, Uganda, Zimbabwe, and then the winner of the Rugby Africa Men's Cup 2025. Repartage. Got a few, few teams in there just to then get the top two out the mix. Here we go. Right. Jumping back to you. Yeah, sorry. I just wanted to under everyone to know who we had thrown in the mix. Mixer. Apologies. No. Like 

Steve Noble: this is where we start bringing out the abacuses and start pretending that we're smarter than we are, but like.

So that African men's Championship kicks off, uh, I think it's June July as well. I think it's being hosted all [01:10:00] in Uganda. So I mentioned UAE are playing Kenya this weekend as a warmup game. That African qualifier goes straight away into a quarter, quarter final knockout. So I know Kenya's playing the host Uganda, but the favorites, mm-hmm.

Namibia have qualified for every other World Cup from Africa, except for once. I think when I might have been Ivory Coast back in the day, but Zimbabwe have actually won last year's championship, and it would probably be between Zimbabwe and Namibia. What I'd say, Kenya, maybe the third. Ranked team in that mix.

Uh, and like you said, the winner qualifies and the runner up is gonna play the runner up from Asia, which again, you could have two teams playing each other that know each other. But like, based on what I've seen, Zimbabwe's been recruiting, well, they've got a couple of former super rugby players back in their mix.

They've got quite a few players who are playing in Curry Cup and URC from South Africa. I would, mm-hmm. They're gonna look to defend their title [01:11:00] and who's gonna stop them. I mean, Namibia would be most likely, but I think they've maybe plateaued a bit in the last few years. 

Carl: So then obviously if they take on the UAE, 

Steve Noble: so UAE playing Namibia or playing Kenya again, uh.

And, and I believe that playoff game is also gonna be held in Ugandan, late July. So very different styles. Uh, that's a tough one to call. Uh, you would think Namibia would be the favorites just because the experience they have. Um, they must still have a lot of players that are playing decent quality rugby either in South Africa or elsewhere.

Carl: Obviously, heat's not gonna be much of a factor between the two. 'cause obviously they're both playing pretty warm areas already, so they've got, they've got probably continue some games as well to you UA as well to keep that momentum. You don't want to come off the back of [01:12:00] the Asia Tri Championships and then sit stagnant for another couple of games.

Do they, is there scope for them to get another game in? From a team in the region, do they go and play it like a Bahrain? Is that, is that a possible, I know it's obviously not gonna be a, um, they don't have much, probably more of a warmup situation. 

Steve Noble: There's not much of a gap. So UAE plays their first game in the age of championship, uh, 13th of June.

So they're playing Hong Kong, China, 13th of June. 

Carl: Mm-hmm. 

Steve Noble: Then they play South Korea on the 22nd of June and they head to Sri Lanka on the 4th of July. And I believe that qualified game, if they were runner up against this second team of Africa is the end of July. So you're only talking about a couple of weeks break, maybe they wanna warm up game or head outs in between.

Um, so Bahrain, when I spoke to them, did say that at one point they were discussing with UAE about having them as the potential first team they would play, but I think they acknowledged that they're probably [01:13:00] not quite there yet. So is it a UA e's benefit to play a team that they more than likely to be, although they want a tougher opposition 

Carl: because I think, I believe Spain of fell would currently fall into the group with South Africa and Australia.

If I remember correctly. So they're obviously gonna have two massive ties already in the, in the mix there. So Spain have got a good, good bit, Portugal think have got New Zealand in theirs, so Rugby Europe are gonna get a proper situation being exposed to some of the top level teams at the minute we get to November.

Okay. So South American third place team, more than likely gonna be probably Paraguay potentially like in that sort of, in that pocket. I think Brazil, you've got the South America Pacific playoff. Brazil as well. Yeah, potentially Brazil. Um, Belgium are gonna go there. Belgium have [01:14:00] obviously taken the USA Canada tour off the Netherlands, which is probably a.

A decent tour for them to, to go on in a, in advance. We don't know obviously where this qualifying tournament is yet as well. 'cause obviously they haven't done that. They'll probably announce that last week in October as always. Which is uh, which is well rugby 'cause no, they don't want anyone to go there and spend money and do anything in advance.

Um, Africa, Asia one is gonna be close between Namibia and and UAE potentially say UAE get past Namibia. What's your thoughts or their chances against a Belgium, Brazil, or Paraguay or probably another team in there? Do you think this is probably one qualification too early? 

Steve Noble: Yeah, I think they'll be in the same boats that Hong Kong, China have found themselves in every World Cup.

Until now, I think it's one tournament. It's too many [01:15:00] teams. Are playing more test match rugby than them. So I think they'll struggle at that level. 

Carl: Namibia though, probably a better shot. Yeah. I.

Steve Noble: I mean, Namibia were the shock non winners of the African championship last year. I think it's the first time they haven't won in who knows how long. So they'll, they'll be in the mix. I think they must still have a lot of guys in there that were at the most recent World Cups. So definitely Namibia would be one of the favorites.

I dunno how Belgium would, I dunno what style of play Belgium play. Um, when I was in Holland many years ago, it was quite a forward physical based game. So I dunno if that's how they play as well. 

Carl: They've got a good mix to be fair. Now they, they, they, when their back line was off, so they, they had a really indifferent.

Rugby Europe championships. The first game they nearly managed to put Portugal bang under pressure and like pushed them quite and then that sort of hampered the rest of their tournament. They didn't do as well [01:16:00] as they, they should have. Uh, but they seemed to save it all up for the Holland game, the Netherlands game in the last, uh, the last game.

And when they get the ball through the hands, they're exciting outback. Uh, but they've got a good level of forward intensity. So I think they could adapt pretty well. It's just wherever it's gonna be played as well I think will probably be a be a factor. 'cause if you try and play that level of rugby.

Consistently up up the jumper in a hotter climate where other teams are used to, I think that could potentially work against Belgium. They're, they're, look, they're moving, they're moving forward as a, as a nation of rugby as well. They've obviously just brought on w Warren Abraham's for their sevens Women's seven Circuit.

Jeff Williams is step up as a, as sort of head of rugby for, for the Rugby sevens and they've got a real program they wanna push forward in, in Belgium. So I it, from a rugby Europe aspect, it'd be great [01:17:00] for them to see, uh, and push forward. I just, I think it all depends where they're hosted for me. I, I think obviously them managing to get two decent games under their belt as well in July over in America and Canada is really, really positive.

But July to November is quite a sizable weight again 'cause it's not like even the, most of the domestic leagues are continuing as well. Is it? So you kind of gotta pull players outta their domestic league. Wherever they are for at the start of the season, which they've had a pre-season, but they're not gonna be at their peak.

Yeah. Whereas other teams are probably coming towards their peak. So yeah, it's gonna be a really interesting one in November. 

Steve Noble: The 

Carl: two things I'd 

Steve Noble: say there, um, any of those teams that were just mentioned, would they have any better chance at the next World Cup than a Hong Kong, China, for example? I think they're still gonna.

Head 4, 3, 4 defeats whatever format we're playing. Yeah, I think if UAE somehow [01:18:00] managed to make that final stage, I put 10 bucks right now that they'll try and host their tournaments. They've bid and hosted for a lot of international rugby tournaments. Well, rugby seems to like them as a host 'cause of where they're based and it's easy get to get to for everyone.

And then, like you said, 

Carl: yeah, 

Steve Noble: November time in Dubai we've got the sevens. Or around that time it might be a nice precursor, you know, if we get to that point, I can see UAE trying to host that tournament. Uh, they did, they did host the final ATE tournaments prior to 2023 as well. I can't remember if it was there.

I think it was USA, Kenya, Hong Kong, China, and one more maybe Portugal. I can't remember. 

Carl: Obviously if they managed to get it on home soil. Still don't 

Steve Noble: think like, I don't think this weekend's game against Kenya is being broadcast, which is a pity 'cause I'm really keen to see how much they've developed if they've worked on that fitness and they've been in camp and re taking it seriously, which I'm sure they are.

[01:19:00] They, yeah, they might be a bit of surprise package. I just, even Belgium I think just gets to play more regular rugby than the UAE does. Like you said, you know, I dunno how many Belgium plays in a calendar, how many tests they play in a calendar year plus that tour they have, even in South America, they're playing a fair bit of international rugby now between each other.

So I think they're just gonna struggle with lack of game time. 

Carl: Belgium didn't really have much of a structure, uh, for games. That's the problem. Uh, it is the same with rugby Europe as well. It's not like Holland, uh, Netherlands, sorry, have dropped there July tour in a sacrifice for Belgium because obviously.

They didn't qualify. Yeah. So Belgium hadn't quite got that and it's just, it's fairly common as well. So it is not just, you got Spain, obviously you've got going on tour, so they've got, um, they're going over, they're doing the USA and Canada as well, so they're playing over there. They, Romania, I believe have got a South America [01:20:00] tour planned.

I think, if I remember correctly, Georgia obviously got Ireland coming to to them as well, which will be a really good one. Um, so sort of the top four have got a bit of a summer program, but Switzerland haven't got another game from what I've known all the. The next Rugby Europe Championships, Germany, uh, we had Sean Ingle on the other week as well, plays, plays for him.

I think the only other exception they had was when they went to the UAE in, uh, to sort of throw it in the mix. But I think there's potential financial issues there as well that stops them having any other games in between Netherlands have obviously dropped their, their pre, their sort of preseason program, uh, in a sacrifice to, to allow Belgium to go across.

So when I was speaking to the, the, the Netherlands team, they literally were together for a week before the start of the Rugby Europe championships and then they had to go and play Spain first game. Yeah. You think, yeah, [01:21:00] that's Rugby World Cup qualifications at chance. It, and you guys have literally had to turn up with a we and preparation's key as we know.

And I, I, again, I dunno if it's political, I dunno if it's costings, but why can't these teams. Like the teams you're saying in Rugby Asia that can't get a game, is it better to have one of those games and develop that way than just not have a game at all and just throw your chances at Rugby World Cup qualification?

It's, there's enough teams out there that now want and need games that there must be a conversation that can be resolved. The only thing that I think is, as you said at the start, egos and funding. 

Steve Noble: Yep. 

Carl: It's the only reason we can't get these games on. 

Steve Noble: I mean, funding is definitely gonna be the realistic barrier.

Carl: Mm-hmm. 

Steve Noble: For all the pros and cons I've talks about in Asia, I know that not all these issues are specific to the region. You've mentioned Rugby Europe suffers from that. South [01:22:00] America, Africa, they all struggle. I mean, Africa's a prime example. Like when I went to the Challenger Sevens, the Madagascar men.

Surprised everyone and qualified for the final Challenger events. But like, yeah, they were scrambling 'cause they never budgeted to go 'cause they didn't expect to be there. Um, the Uganda woman qualified and then the union pulled them out because they didn't have the money for it. So even it's such a crazy situation to be in where there isn't the money for this.

Like, I I, I think it was Germany, I'm trying to think back now. I think the first test, maybe post pandemic, I'm pretty sure it was Germany that did tour Hong Kong, China as well. Um, so it's obviously easier for the likes of a UAE or a Korea, Hong Kong, China to go to Europe. 'cause like you said, you could play Switzerland one weekend, go play any number of countries the next, the second weekend and even probably have a midweek game with your kind of backups, you know?

So that's a realistic tour. I think going the other way, I. It's not [01:23:00] impossible. Like we saw Zimbabwe do that. They, well, they played in Dubai and played in, in, uh, in, in South Korea. But this, you know, if you went to Hong Kong, China the one weekend and went to Korea, that's an easier journey. There's some top teams in Japan you could play.

So you could definitely off a two weekend tour, get a couple of games in. But yeah, the expenses with those flights and et cetera, it's, this is what, this go back, it goes back to my point, like Hong Kong, China, I think is reasonably well funded based on the success of the Hong Kong Sevens. That is their breadwinner.

Mm-hmm. So I said the fact that last year they toured South America, 'cause they did play Paraguay, Brazil, uh, and Chidi. 

Carl: They didn't do too bad either. No, they, they, they, they put up a put, put up an effort at least, and they, they won two outta three. I think people, ex people expected a little bit more out of the other game as well potentially.

But I. Because they, was it they lost to Paraguay, weren't they? Was it They lost to Paraguay or they lost to? They lost one of them that would've probably [01:24:00] shown where they actually were. 

Steve Noble: They lost Shari, which is the game I couldn't watch. And even the coach, it was their first game, but he was the first one to put up his hand and say they were poor.

And the second hand, they. Demolish Paraguay. And the third game, they beat Brazil with their final kick after the hta. 

Carl: Uh, is that, but 

Steve Noble: again, I didn't know too much about Brazil, and I said Brazil is in the mix to potentially qualify, qualify from South America. And they came over and played Hong Kong, China in a return series, beat Hong Kong, China in the first game and lost the second one.

They were beaten, well beaten, but they were a good team. I was really surprised, like, um, very physical, very abrasive. Yeah. But, um, really lightning backs as well. So I quite like their brand of rugby, so it'd be quite nice to see a team like that in the mix of the World Cup. 

Carl: I saw 'em when they come over.

They did a four, four team tournament down at Vere down the road. So Spain, Canada, Brazil, and USA and I thought Brazil, I thought, and I was just [01:25:00] like, wow. Yeah, what they look like, they're gonna be one hell of it. And then the, the women's as well looked very, very good. They played against Spain as well recently put up a proper show.

They're going to the World Cup. First time. Yeah. Obviously in the, in, in the UK as well. And they're gonna be good team to watch. Good fun, good luck. Their, their backs are lightning as well. And if you turn your right off, that's it. You, you won't see 'em. They're over the line. They're phenomenal. So we've all, yeah, we may as well dabble on it.

Rugby well cut 2025 England World Cup Women's. What is the chances for Japan? 'cause Japan are obviously coming over. They've got, have they got England in their group as well? Is it England in the group? No, it's, 

Steve Noble: it's, it's tough pool there. They've got New Zealand. Uh, that's it. It's a very tough pool. That's why a lot of people have written them off.

But, um. Japan, Spain, New Zealand. And one more. Yeah, I've gone blank. I've gone [01:26:00] blank on who it is, but they have got a tough pool. Um, yeah, I'm just very optimistic. You know, it's, it's, I get to watch a lot of their women play sevens, uh, obviously in this championship. Like literally, like I said, they put out their, with no disrespect to Kazakhstan, all the players that didn't play Japan, put out a third string team and put 90 points on Kazakhstan, but played a really exciting brand of rugby.

They beat USAA few weeks ago for the first time ever on USA soil. They will be favorites to beat Hong Kong, China in the final of the championship this Sunday. Um, mm-hmm Then they had some good tests lined up. Spain comes to Japan for two tests, so that's gonna give us a good indication for the World Cup if they do well.

And then I think they have a game in Italy before they head to the World Cup. So they've got a nice run in. I like the mix of their squad, their blooding, good depth, exciting players. Um, their forward pack are gonna be the ones that are gonna be tested. 'cause we know they have great hands, great [01:27:00] skill sets on their backs, but their forward pack.

Yeah. Did a number on the USAI thought. Um, I dunno if you've ever played against Japanese players, but it's nearly no matter where I play Japanese players social rugby. Otherwise they scrum in a very similar style. They get really low, they're technically great and they can definitely punish bigger, heavier teams and a hundred percent they'll be fitter than any team they play.

So there's a lot of positives there that USA game was, so, I talked about this a little bit on the podcast a few, a few weeks ago, but Japan went over to the USA having never beaten the American woman. I was quietly confident. The coaches and players I've spoken to were quietly confident. They started the game scoring first, and then going a few tries behind where I was like, ah.

But they pulled the game around and in my, I think dominated, maybe not on the scoreboard, but they did win, but against a more physical, uh, a more aggressive, a team that thought they could run over them. And they were [01:28:00] just chop tackling, getting over them, winning ball. The rucks, they were fitter, their hand speed and the accuracy was great.

They scored some fantastic tries. When they play like that, it's very difficult for teams to stop them 'cause they kind of swarm you. It's, it never ends. You know, there's no breather and unless you're going into that World Cup or any game against them, which is why I'm quite keen to see that Spain contest.

Um, 'cause especially if they're playing in the Japanese summer where it's gonna be sweltering and humid. If they're not at Peak Fitness, Japan will run 'em off their feet. 

Carl: Mm. I think obviously Spain have got the benefit of, of training in constant similar heat as well. And, and they've, they've come away from camp, they've managed to get a really solid Rugby Europe championship under their belt as well.

Um, with a really good improvement from, from the, from the Netherlands as well. The Netherlands really, really stepped up 'cause the Rugby Europe championship kind of got a [01:29:00] little bit, again, similar to the Six Nations where England are running away with it in the, on the women's aspect to, to the same with Spain.

So it was good to see a challenge from the, uh, from the Netherlands this time to put Spain under pressure, but managed to catch up with, with Bimba and Claudia Pena after the Brazil game and their, within camp, their main focus is the World Cup because it's so important to them as well. I think it's gonna be a really good group.

I know it's gonna be a, it's classified as a difficult group, but there's. It's gonna be exciting to watch Spain play a great brand of women's rugby as well as Japan have got a real good movement forward. Obviously Simon Middleton said he went over and done some sort of coaching over there for a period and sort of wax lyrical about the excitement of that group.

And then obviously the Black Ferns getting run close again by Canada the other day as well. So I think it's gonna be, it's just gonna be an, [01:30:00] an amazing spectacle and obviously everyone's thinking it's gonna be sunny 'cause it's August, but yeah, it's probably gonna rain and everyone, it's gonna, everyone's gonna get washed out.

This excited brand of Rugby's just going to, it is gonna be up the jumper. It's gonna be like old school Lester Tigers and. And that's how everyone's gonna have to play or something. I mean, lot the British Summer will ruin it as always. 

Steve Noble: Yeah. Just looking at, so the fourth team is Ireland. So again, it is a tough pool considering what Ireland's done.

But like you said, I mean that weather will impact things. It will determine the style of play definitely won't be in Japan's favor, I think. Uh, and if it was those horrible conditions, it would probably suit Ireland to New Zealand, I would imagine. Um. It's, it's gonna be interesting because I think obviously there's a lot of hype being built around the World Cup, rightly so, because it's the biggest selling ticket wise.

Um, yeah. You know, I think there's gonna be, is it gonna be that [01:31:00] turning point that World Rugby wants it to be? Who knows, financially needs to be successful as well for these World Cups to continue being these pinnacle events. But I think, uh, the media tension and the, the kind of types of players we have all these sevens players that switched over the fifteens team for a lot of countries.

Yeah, there's a lot of reasons to be positive for the World Cup. I'm definitely going, I'm accredited already, so I'm looking forward to being there despite what the UK weather's gonna bring me. But I, I'm very excited. Uh, the one, the last with Japan, the last thing I'd say, it wasn't, it didn't come from the Japanese coaches, but one from one of the top clubs.

I was speaking to the coaches and they were saying the fact that Japan didn't get a win in the last World Cup. They were competitive in every game, but eventually got blown out in a few. That's the part I think that's changed. I think they're now competitive for 80 minutes and it's such a cliche thing, but teams need to go through that experience.

Um, yeah, the fact that they didn't win any games, the last World Cup as a matter of pride, I think really stung them. So I think that's where the reasons that really lifted themselves. And like [01:32:00] a lot of people, Japanese are proud people, so I think that's something to not discount. Mm. 

Carl: Well that second spot's gonna be h hotly contested obviously.

I think we can probably safely say the Black Ferns are probably there, or thereabouts. Ireland are probably there for the take in, like they've had a good six Nations. But if Japan are able to come and play their brand, Spain can obviously do their own bits with players that are playing in England as well.

They've, they've got a bit of a bit of experience, so that'd be probably the best group to watch, I think potentially. So be good fun. Yeah, I was 

Steve Noble: gonna say, I'm definitely looking forward to that, that two test series that Spain's coming over to Japan. Yeah, that's gonna be tasty. I, I'm really looking forward to that.

Carl: I'm surprised they did that. I'm surprised they called that seeing as they're in their own group as well, leading up to a World Cup. But, you know, obviously you're not gonna give all your secrets away in the first, in those games, but I think it'll be a good, it's a good way of [01:33:00] keeping them in. And Spain have been very active in trying to go to, to countries that are probably not traveled to.

Like the, the men's went to, uh, Tonga and um, and stuff and played over, over there in Samoa as well during last, last Summer's tour. So I think Spain are trying to adapt to, to what's ahead. So that'd be good fun. Yep. To see where their next tour is. Uh, obviously USA is gonna be a big one for the men's and it'd be great to see if we can get a World Cup here.

Steve, is there anything else I think we need to cover? I, I think we've. Covered a fair whack to be 

Steve Noble: fair, yeah, we've covered everything. I mean, look, um, like it's such a big region. There is a lot, like back to your original question for all the, the concerns are top down, which is a problem because the leadership group is not the best I think in the region for driving this game.

There are a lot of politics dividing the region, but there's far more regions to be positive. [01:34:00] The last thing I'm gonna say, it's the same thing I told you a few weeks ago, but if I look at Japan Women World Cup, if they have a successful World Cup and I don't know how they measure that success, I think that's gonna have a massive tailwind effect in the same way that I think Hong Kong, China men qualifying for the World Cup or whichever team from Asia, having two men's team for the next few years.

Those are big positives to kind of leverage growing the game on as long as the financial sports and the governance of their, there's enough pinnacle events for. To really drive the game forward in the region. Uh, and for anyone who's never been to the region, honestly, you can go to any capital city at the moment.

You'll find a rugby club, you'll find a sevens tournament, a tens tournament, or some kind of unique championship going on. It's very, it's very fun place to tour if you're a rugby team. 

Carl: I think there's, there's probably another, another episode for us to, to, to go through once this, uh, qualification's cleared up as well.

I think there's definitely plenty [01:35:00] more to, to di dissect and move forward. Steve, it's an absolute honor to have you on for those that. Probably more interested in some of your stuff than what, what I'm able to cover. Where can they find you and what, uh, what, what do you have to offer for everyone? 

Steve Noble: Yeah.

Rugby Asia 24/7 is the website's usual thing on the socials as well, but which we do try and cover everything literally from grassroots development work, uh, straight up to the international game. Um, so it's a bit of everything. Uh, interviews, tournaments. There's a good guide we publish as well, which covers social rugby tournaments, which is a big part of the game.

So yeah, it's everything from the internationals down to grassroots youth rugby socials, but Rugby Asia 24/7. Thanks very much. 

Carl: Uh, and for everyone that wants to, to keep abreast of everything that's coming up with, uh, rugby through the leagues, we've got some amazing more guests. Obviously we'll tag Steven and Rugby Asia 24/7 and all the follow ups to this and on the lead up.

But make sure you subscribe, [01:36:00] like, comment, keep abreast with us on our, all our socials and just keep growing the game. Thank you and goodbye.