Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 5 - Saner Hasan ATR Interview

Revolutionizing Rugby Media with All Things Rugby & Saner Hasan | Through The Leagues Podcast

In this episode of 'Rugby Through The League's Podcast,' we sit down with Saner Hassan from All Things Rugby to delve deep into the evolution and current landscape of rugby media. From Saner's journey in rugby to founding All Things Rugby, we discuss the importance of authentic and unfiltered media coverage, the challenges faced by rugby governance, and the innovative ways All Things Rugby is changing the game with their comprehensive coverage and digital engagement platforms. Whether you are a die-hard rugby fan or a curious newcomer, this episode offers valuable insights into the future of rugby media and the role of technology in bringing the sport closer to the audience. Don't miss out on hearing how collaboration, transparency, and innovative content can elevate rugby to new heights.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This
week, we are joined by the man, the myth, the legend, that is Shanir Hassan from
All Things Rugby. I know you've probably seen him on on little bits when I was in
London City Sevens within the other week, probably still recovering from that as
well, a pair of us. But Shanir, it's a great pleasure to have you on, mate, to
talk about your rugby. Your We've passed so far and where we are now, sat with the
All Things Rugby as well, mate. Thanks for joining us. - Oh, listen, thank you for
having me on. - So for those that don't know what your rugby journey is so far,
because obviously you had a life in rugby before the All Things Rugby process. - I
actually got into rugby quite late. Funny enough, I started playing rugby league when
I was 15, just in school, here catchable and run as hard as you can. So that's
how my rugby journey started. But yeah, I played league at rep level back in the
UK, which really enjoyed and then probably wasn't until I went to college, I started
playing union, instantly fell in love with it, but straight away also got involved
in the coaching side of things. So I was coaching with the RFU and doing kind of
mini in use and the volunteer stuff, ended up doing like London youth games and a
few Queen's Cannons, which was great, I actually stepped away from the game for a
fair bit and traveled, moved to New Zealand for a bit. And when I saw the size of
everyone playing in New Zealand, I was like, not a chance. And then when I got
back to the UK, I ended up joining Wimbledon Rugby Club, both playing and coaching.
And then flew the nest over to the desert. So I'm in Qatar. I've been here for
six years and very much got heavily involved with Doha Rugby Club, which is the
main local club here. And in about two years ago, the captain of Qatar at the time
was a gentleman called David Ford, who's now CEO of All Things Rugby. We had an
idea to enter the rugby space from a media perspective, but also from a tech and
platform. So currently have two setups versus obviously All Things Rugby. So we have
All ThingsRugby .com, which is our online and I'm newspaper website with all of our
stats. We're lucky enough to have people like yourself that write for us. And then
we send people down to obviously games and I'm sure we'll talk about like rugby
Europe, but we try to cover as much top level rugby as possible in a unfiltered,
no bullshit approach, say what needs to be said, give the players the limelight,
show the big hits, show the fun side of rugby that we all love. We then started
the Rugby app, which is then our fan engagement platform and data app.
So what we're trying to do is give you a second screen viewing whilst you're
watching the game. So whilst the game is going on, we're using stats from the app
to create talking points and obviously start the conversation online on socials. And
then we have offload media, which is our player agency as well. So lucky enough to
work with some very by profile players in the game. We originally started with Sonny
Bill, which is always a good name to get the ball rolling. And the most incredible
humble man you'll ever meet in real life as well. So the idea is that offload
media is our route to market to help players become more commercial,
help the game become more sustainable. And then we use all things rugby as the
front for that. Rugby media is probably porridge at best or most of the way.
And I think it's not just all things rugby. There's a few other platforms that are
trying to change that narrative. And it's pretty unapologetic that ATR wanna change
the way of rugby. And how do you foresee that changing? 'Cause obviously there's
only so far that we can probably keep in the alternative version of rugby.
Before that becomes the norm. What's the further vision of ATR and the rugby app to
bring it to the masses, rather than just our funny little bubble of rugby that we
still think is massive? Yeah, look, from my point of view, I think rugby's got an
issue at the top. And until that is solved, everything else will always be an
issue. So we can keep doing what we're doing and putting players at the front cover
and bringing fans closer. But with the governance of the sport,
and I think the one thing I've realized through my travels and obviously doing this,
it's all relative. So the problems that the Welsh rugby union face are very relative
to the problems that the Qatar rugby union face, which is very probably relative to
the Spanish rugby union. Right, so the problem is the game is still very old school
at the top.
packed out stadiums you've got Russell Crowe doing a voiceover of just big hits and
big boys getting smashed and you're like we can't show a big tackle because we're
scared of a head case and it's like come on lads like we all know what we're here
for and then you know I'm sure we'll talk about sevens later on as well but it's
the same you've got a you've got an amazing game on the pitch and you've got an
incredible festival and atmosphere but the governance of it, the advertising of it,
the, you know, even their social media of it is definitely going in a certain
certain way that isn't player friendly. But yeah, look,
I think if you look at other sports, we're really doing something wrong. And we've
just got such a big ego to think that we are better than everyone, but we're not
doing anything about it. And if you look at live golf, if you look at the IPL and
cricket, If you look at baller league in the UK now, like there's so many
blueprints there and you just think, girl, what are we doing to our sport? And then
the flip sides, you get the other extreme, you get the UFC's and the power slaps
that, you know, Dana White is willing to come out and say what's good and what's
bad and what's happening and he's have got, if there's a, there's a bad call, he's
got no issue calling out of ref and, You know even players going wrong as well.
He's not afraid of calling out the ones that are actually doing it That's and
that's the difference look There's a certain element that people are too scared to
upset people especially in rugby. We run at people
Men women we run at each other as hard as we physically can if we then can't just
deconstruct what went wrong or how we're gonna move the sport forward. We're lost.
It's not going to move forward. If you wanted to put a quick fix in now to rugby,
what would your quick fix be to turn it on its head and put it in the limelight?
It could. Is there what that one quick fix in your opinion? It's hard because for
me, there's so many things, right? And it's highlighted by the fact that only a few
months ago, we all got so excited because because we're gonna start putting player
names on the back of the shirts, right? I always use the football analogies of when
Ronaldo moved to Juventus, Ronaldo moved and the next day in shirt sales, they
covered the transfer fee.
Meanwhile, if I wanna buy a Marcus Smith jersey, do I get M -Smith 10?
Do I get M -Smith 15? Do I get M -Smith 23? You know, there's so many little
things like this and then if you move to France and all of a sudden number 23 is
a reserved prop and then who do I get there and there's there's a real lack of
loyalty towards players which then how can I support a player and how can I get
kids to follow a superstar you know like and one of the reasons why I love the
Henry Pollock hype train I want everyone to get behind him as much as possible and
you know whether he plays on the Lions tour or not is I think it's irrelevant now.
I think you just need to get him in front of as many people as possible and you
don't need to media train him. Just let him be himself and just let people see
these amazing characters we've got on the pitch. When you've got the 2003 England
World Cup team getting rolled out to every corporate event and every podcast and
they're talking about the same stories and it's like what is a 15 or one year old
going to be interested in rugby when all of this is going on. So that's that's the
biggest one for me. I just think give the players the limelight, the games brilliant
on the pitch at the moment. And I think across the board, whether it's Premiership
Super Rugby or the under 20s, it's, it's all really good quality at the moment.
Players are getting bigger, stronger, faster, more skillful. Yet all of a sudden
we're not allowed to put them on billboards and we're They're not allowed to give
them their image rights. They're not allowed to help them build a brand and a
business. So they're only ever one tackle away from being absolutely fucked. Yeah.
And the thing is, though, that's changed because you look back at all the highlights
of old school rugby and all it is is big hits, people punching each other. Is
rugby trying to dilute itself to try and fit in with the masses rather than
embracing what it is. Yeah, I can't remember who said it. So I'm not going to try
and take credit for it. But someone once said rugby is a game for everybody, but
not for anybody, right? So, you know, you can sit and appreciate it,
but I'm the first to say, right, I've got no, I haven't got it in me anymore.
If you stand in front of me and want to run at me, I'm I'm trying to move out
of the way, right? I've not got that anymore, but I can appreciate watching you do
that, right? glorify that and Again to use the boxing and UFC No one sits there
and says, oh, I don't want to get punched in the face. So get boxing off TV,
right? You go into boxing now and you're gonna get punched and if you if you don't
understand that don't do it and then you know Go to a bare knuckle FC at the
moment. And you got just this weekend, it was the most brutal, brutal fights.
And I'm sitting there going, we can't show big hits and tackles anymore. And yet
all of a sudden I've got two people punching the hell out of each other and big
contusions on their head and blood everywhere. And I'm like, she's great. I still
think it's better than power slap, which is a, you know, just another crazy crazy
one. But if you go back 20 odd years, rugby did try to do this.
And this is, I think this is the thing that we all forget. If you look at like
the Wilkinson Beckham stuff. If that was nowadays, it would go absolutely viral,
right? But we've lost that. And then in 1998, the French rugby team played the
French football team. And there's videos online of like really old school videos of
like Zidane scoring a try. And you're like, what? Imagine that now.
Yeah, you know, and you just we're sitting here and like, where was this back then?
And when New Zealand did the the old fake trick shot stuff. And the brumby boys
came out and did a fake barbecue one, you know, like, we have done it. And then
all of a sudden, it's it's gone away out of nowhere. And we're sitting there going,
well, going, well, hold on a second, now's the perfect time to do this, this social
content. So yeah, look, I, I honestly, I don't understand at what point it changed,
but I think we've, we've claimed where this scientific sport and we looked on, you
know, why we need to load a tackle higher, for example, based on concussions in a
game that we then didn't change the tackle high on. So then all of a sudden we've
just produced this mass negative media about something that has nothing to do with
what we decided. And again, this is where I just I'll call it out. The problems at
the top. You know, you've got people that used to play the game and not in touch
with the game nowadays making decisions about a society they don't know.
I used to, you know, it's almost like my dad trying to give me housing advice when
he bought a house next for nothing and now he's telling me I need to go buy a
house for a million quid when it's never going to happen. So, yeah, I think the
top's got a lot to answer for and unfortunately, not enough people are willing to
sit in front of him and say what needs to be said. I think that also won't change
as well because the clubs are not in a financial position to stand out. I think if
the clubs were able to commercialise and the Players were able to sort of
commercialize themselves. There would probably be a bit of a revolution, potentially,
but a lot of them are still having to go cap in hand to the likes of the RFU
just to survive. Do you also think the players, there is not as many global
superstars as there was back when Johnny was around and John Alumu and stuff like
that? - I've got a couple of theories on this. I think one, It was a very
different time, right? And I think that this is the this is the story that doesn't
get told When Jonah loamy was playing. Yes, he was an absolute Incredible athlete
and a monster But he was also playing against part -time people So the gap was even
bigger And I think if you look at Wilco Even that that, you know,
the rest of the tens at the time he was just out. I mean, you can look at what
happened afterwards, you know, you went on to go win more and more afterwards. But
I think the gap between the top players and the bottom, he's probably closer never
before. And I think like if you look at the Premiership this year, I mean, some of
the games in the Premiership have just been outstanding. And there's players on there
that have had nowhere near international. look at Gabs Ibatoa for Bristol, right?
Oli Hassell Collins at Leicester, Adam Radwan's another one. Like you're talking about
phenomenal athletes that are nowhere near the international stage yet, but they're
still playing against international players. Yeah. So I just don't think we've got
the marketing right for the game at all. We're talking about Georgia playing Ireland
in Georgia. And, you know, for us personally, get on a plane to Georgia,
have a good time, see a new country, see a tier one team play a very good tier
two team, right? Yeah. And a tier one team without their Lions boys now, you're
talking about a very, very good match. Well, it's the same day as Lions versus
Western Force. Yeah. So, you know, all of a sudden, from a media perspective,
it's like, well, who do we cover? And even even that you look at we're talking
about England, right? When England played Japan last year, no one even wanted to TV
deal. So if no one's going to show the game, it don't matter what I do with the
player, you know, it's it's mad. I don't think anyone's taken up the England USA
game either. I think it's over to rugby pass now as well. And it which is that's
a terrifying fact that even England can't sell rights. Yeah, and I again if you
look there is models there that we can look at right so when UFC go to Australia,
for example They still put the matches on for the American time because they know
that that's their main source of income And they know they're willing to change it
and to give America its due right America It's starting to change the broadcast to
to suit them You know, we obviously spoke about the head Indian Sevens League is
going to happen and how they've changed. I say changed. They've adapted the game to
suit the market, right? Yeah, there's templates out there. But rugby's just like,
nope, we have to do it this way. And this is how it's always going to be. And
it's like, fucking hell, lads, like, you want to, I tell you what, we're starting
to sound like these two old men now sitting having a having a beer moaning about
the world of rugby, putting it in rights. But yeah, we want the game to do right?
And we want to get to succeed. Hence why I do what I do and you do what you do,
right? And we're all pushing our case for it. But it takes it takes an army of
people now. And one of the things about all things rugby is we're trying to bring
as many people together, whether it's content creators or podcasters or players,
referees, coaches, and we're like, right, how do we all get together and prove that
we can do this? Because we were at the London City sevens the other week as well.
And we, we got speaking to a few different content creators, players within the
game, people's around the game. Obviously, we, we had the pleasure of speaking to
Mike Friday as well. Who's got a lot of opinions about World Rugby and the sevens
and what a bloke. And he's, I've seen him all over Twitter over the weekend.
And he was at another sevens tournament and just highlighting that rugby will end up
shooting itself in the foot if we continue to just let decisions be made based on
a certain few rather than what is actually needed. Rugby players, their career is
even shorter than a football footballers career. You've got to make your money while
you're there otherwise you're never gonna, and like it's the same in the women's
sport as well because the women's are actively having to do other jobs while also
playing international rugby. And you think, how will we class in this as a
professional sport if you've got international players having the fun rates potentially
to go on their own tour? - Canada playing against New Zealand. I wouldn't want to
play New Zealand on my fittest best day, right? Let alone then know, and I've had
to fundraise to get a flight over there, you know, and I just think that one of
the things about all things rugby from behind the curtain is how do we help rugby
be sustainable? You know, and one of my absolute pure goals here is to create a
model where we end up being the white label. We're going to go to every single
player and every single club and we're going to say, here you go. Let us help you
we're going to prove models of success and we're just going to keep rolling it out.
One of the things we're talking about now is how we build that network of players
that we can start showing what we're doing, whether it's content creators or
podcasters, anyone as a fan, we've all kind of got a responsibility to help join
together to show show the system how it's been done, you know, and once we Um,
once we have a proven track record and enough evidence underneath us, man, you can't
be denied. And that's the thing that's why when we start, when we set up all
things rugby, you know, we made sure we did it all the right way and we spoke to
every shareholder and every rightsholder. So whether that's the Premiership or the
URC, we want to work directly with them. MLR, for example, we're now lucky enough
to work with the wheel, the technical director who's another great mind in rugby.
And we're like, right, what can we do to support you? And even the players, you
know, when we were in London, and we're chatting to the players, what can we do to
help them directly? And sometimes that is bite in your tongue. And whether you want
to go watch your team play or not, you have to go buy a ticket and go watch it.
And, you know, I think that's the, that's the important thing. And again, there is
so many examples of it being done well. I mean, just this weekend you had Bristol
playing at Principale. I think they hit 45 ,000 or something You had Queens playing
at Twickenham, right for another I think they they undersell compared to
The Christmas game they did but you know, you still got another 30 ,000 and all of
a sudden you're sitting there And you're like judgment day that had the top four
Welsh teams had No one in the stand and everyone talking to each other like not
even watching the rugby so there's there's blueprints out there of how it can be
done yeah yeah again the ego and the arrogance of no we don't we don't need the
help the the big events at like twickenham that the harlequins obviously managed to
put on and bristol obviously going across into wales and into the principality
improving that you can feel or part feel the principality with a standard league
game like the judgment day process has really lost itself. I went a few years ago
and again the price point is brilliant. It's a great way of getting two good games
of rugby in but it's just lost itself and then you've got the WRU the other day
cockswinging around saying that if you don't sign the contract by Thursday there's
not going to be any more regions and you think, hold on a minute, you just had to
bail out one of the clubs because they're financially screwed. And now you're using
an archaic business technique of actually that contract's going to, if we have to
renegotiate that contract, it's going to be worse for us. So we're just going to
throw hand grenades into everyone's lap until they sign because we know if we got
to renegotiate what we've done to save that one region is going to end up shitting
ourselves. So it's either you sign it or we'll say that the whole thing is going
to fall apart. It just, it just stinks of, and then you've got them spending 50
grand on flowers. You think, oh, don't release that information. My favorite rugby
quote this year, 50 ,000 on hospitality flowers. Yeah, look, I think that again, one
of the things about all things rugby is we, we're trying to grow the top and then
watch the bottom grow because of that. And I think if you look at South Africa as
an example, when you have a double World Cup winning team,
your fans grow. Yeah. If your team is shit, no one's going to want to be there.
It's as simple as that. So when everyone is saying, look, we need to grow the game
and we start from the bottom and grass root, look, of course, we've all been a
part of grass roots. And, you know, I wouldn't have gotten the game unless I had a
grassroots club to go to at the end of the day. But people, more people will go
to a grassroots club if they've got someone to, to be a role model on the top.
And that's it. So instead of shunting the top people down all the time and,
you know, instead of putting them behind a wall saying, no, don't, I mean, Ireland's
a prime example of this, right? The lack of media that Irish players do. How are
you ever going to grow global superstars and give everyone else in the world someone
to look at we're just gonna sit there and go that arrogant fuck this don't want to
talk to them fine you know we won't support you and again it just it happens all
the time you know like this this tall poppy syndrome of nah no one's bigger than a
team and you know no one's bigger than the jersey and actually The reason why so
many people have left New Zealand and gone on sabbaticals and gone to play in
Japan, 'cause the jersey isn't worth it anymore. If the media are gonna sit there
and insult you week after week, why are you gonna play for them? And I think like,
look at Rico now going across to Lester. And then all of a sudden, you've got
World Cup winner, Steven Donald on Sky Sports New Zealand on the breakdown saying,
nah, you are sees not that good. Well, if that's your main media stream and you're
putting down the players and the teams, why would I want to stay there? It's crazy.
And I just I actually think that again, it is being done well some places Australia
when Su Ali signs every single broadcast star made him look like a superstar and
they were talking about him nonstop. And it was like, have you got Su Ali in your
fantasy team? And this is like, that's what you need, you know, you need everyone
to get behind each other. And then you need every, every TV screen to show these
incredible athletes that are giving everything. And then the game will grow. And then
it will become more commercial. And then you'll get more people playing and then
you'll create a sustainable model. But the RFU did the opposite. The RFU went,
I know what we'll do. We'll say we're going to focus on the bottom, But then we're
going to cut all the funding for the bottom and we're going to cut the community
coaching And we're going to change your laws based on something that happened at the
top And we're not going to show you the top, but we're going to tell you we're
going to grow the game You're like, yeah, what are you talking about? Yeah Do you
think as rugby people? We probably look for the negative a little bit too much
because it is that's just the narrative of rugby there's we need to be a lot more
positive because kids don't want to play rugby or parents don't want kids to play
rugby because all they hear about is kids getting knocked out and people a lot
people who had injuries and stuff that wasn't addressed properly that was really
really poorly addressed within rugby you've then got it's not played in schools
because teachers don't understand the game PE teachers aren't upskilled to understand
the game it's just easy to say it's a little bit too violent in our eyes we just
won't play it or obviously they're trying with this new version of is it T 15 T1
or whatever yeah problem is if you've got players that come out of that bubble are
they being pushed towards a club to actually understand that there is a level of
physicality or are we just going to have a load of touch rugby which is that's got
its own bit because I definitely can't dive anywhere. I can't move that quick when
you see these clips of these players that are diving through people's legs to score
tries and I'm like I think I pull my hamstring just watching it let alone actually
physically doing it so there's in front row. Yeah, there's there's definitely ways
there's more what more than one way of skin and a cat within the game and we know
that there's ways of it. That's the way though. Are we too negative as a sport?
Potentially. I don't mind if it's matched with a solution.
Yes. That's my biggest thing, right? Anyone can be a problem pointer.
Do you think about it? And this is the biggest thing, right? Like I've been a
rugby fan since, as I said, watching it on TV and thinking, "Cool, this is
incredible." And then first time I got a ball and first time I got smashed and
flew through the air backwards net loan hitting someone myself right like and all
the other things that come with it and the tours and the socials look we love all
of that but I don't I have no issue saying here's the problem but then offer a
solution for it and again like we we we were there two years ago before we started
all things rugby we sat there and we're like man this is shit and that's shit and
we were like right fuck it here we go let's uh let's do something about it and
let's do things the right way and let's do it how as fans we want to consume it
and when we speak to players the first thing I say is look as a player what what
can I do to help you all if this was when especially when we speak to ex players
if you were still playing how would you like this to now be and that's that's the
business model for us you know which we're not trying to do anything different we're
not trying to do anything new we're just taking good ideas and bringing them
together and applying them to rugby and we're just asking people in rugby what they
want and giving it to them and whether that is you know new games to play or
whether that's a new way of engaging with players or whether that's different
highlight videos whatever it is we want to be a solution for it so yes look i do
think as a society naturally especially british culture we love a you know,
right? Fine. Yeah. But then offer a solution. When there is that solution, you can
pick, you can make your own mind up. You know, I don't watch F1. I do not enjoy
watching cars go round the track over and over again. Right. And I think even
watching it live is even worse, because I'm not even watching the whole thing. I'm
just watching one corner. And before you know it, it's gone. Okay, so I'm not going
to go and watch F1 and sit there moaning about it. It's simple, isn't it? I'll go
watch something I do like. So I just think as long as there's a solution with it,
great, we have a responsibility to highlight and educate people on this. You know,
and I think, as I said, everyone will have their gap in the market for it,
which is why collaboration works. You know, I think and you've seen on on the group
of content content creators and editors that we put together. We're encouraging
everyone to chat. And I know, obviously, you spoke to Steve Noble and I know you
on Hugh Griffin's podcast and Hugh just had Ben Jay Cocky work sort of rugby paper
on and we're sitting there going, right, if we can be part of the solution with
that and bring more people together and have better conversations about it and bring
new audiences to it, we're doing our bit. Yeah. So I don't mind calling an old 70
year old man out of why I don't think he should be in the sport anymore. Rugby's
potentially being held back because how many because a few of the lads are obviously
saying that they've got they've got what they've got young families so weekends are
precious like the availability to play a Friday night game Thursday night game
midweek game stuff like that rather than having a training session on a Tuesday
night if there's a game that there's a pitch available potentially played a game
early and we were sort of discussing that a lot of it's safeguarded by the old
guard that live and die by a league lunch their life is run by a league lunch and
they can't move on from that league lunch which is brilliant like but league lunch
is a dying within rugby and potentially going to be the death of certain parts of
the game because if If you can't move a league lunch because some old boy can't
get out We still want you to be part of the game, but also you've got to move on
with the people that are actually playing the game There is no game to play if
there's not lads being able to turn up and play it and it's Until we get out of
that bubble thinking it's got to be two o 'clock on a Saturday in July or sorry in
September and two a clock on a in in October and stuff and then oh you might we
might move it forward a little bit if there's a Six Nations game on so you can go
and sit in the bar and watch it lads don't want to sit in the bar if they can
get a ticket they want to go and watch it live this is a live sport opportunity
for everyone that loves rugby there is nothing better than going watching it in a
seat in a stadium with your mates with four or five points sat there ready and
then you're watching the elite level of the R game run at each other doing things
that you don't even think's possible with a ball and you think "Ah, sorry, I'm
going to play against Ferrum Heavins or whatever at two o 'clock." Rush myself
through to get a cold shower because nobody's turned the heating on, to then get in
a bar to sit down and watch it when you can't see it because all the old guard
have already been there before. So you sat at the back, you can't watch it, you
can't see it, you can't have the audio on 'cause everyone's chatting anyway. And
you're like, this is not how rugby should be watched. Rugby is a live sport. It is
better live. There's no argument about that, I don't think. - I'd say TNT are doing
a very good job on their broadcast then. Just don't, I think that there's two parts
here, I'm probably going to piss off everyone over the age of 35. Now, I think
that's, I think the culture around vets in clubs needs to be
Sometimes they're not even paying their own subs. They've got their own little kitty
that they work from and this any other That's unanimous across the globe everywhere.
I've been a third the same shit Look I I'm gonna give football its credit.
This might be the only time I ever give football credit match of the day on a
Saturday night Right if you think about Every rugby match happening on a Saturday
Well, they're missing their game. They're missing their team So if the bulk of the
team at play if the bulk of the team is playing on the side at the same time as
you have to play your match How'd you watch it? And there was an incident. I think
it was the beginning of the year where the highlights Both the perimeter you are
see when they use their AI highlight generator wasn't even showing the highlights You
know, and then you've got four different TV subscriptions You need to get to watch
the game and stuff. So, you know, it killed it and actually match of the day was
no 10 p .m. I've had my takeaway. Everyone's watched their top of the pops and take
me out and all the other shit they were watching. But the news. Yeah. News out of
the way. And that's it. Now we're going to sit down and we're going to watch the
highlight. We're going to watch a very good in -depth analysis show of real. And,
you know, I think even Sky Sports, what they do with what they did with, you know,
Carrager and Neville really, really changed the game with analysis.
And look, we're we're getting there, right? I think TNT are doing a fantastic job
for the automations. And I think we noticed it more in the six nations of the drop
in quality when it went back to BBC and ITV, right? And I'm all for having some
rugby on free TV fine. But then let's get some decent superstars on there to talk
about it and and watch it and analyze it and all do respect. If I've got Clive
Woodward and Martin Johnson talking about back in their day one more fucking time,
I'm going to turn off, you know, like rugby is too big of a sport to fail. But
we're doing a pretty good fucking job of it, you know, like, and that's, that's
where all things rugby comes in. That's where your podcast comes in. That's where
new media comes in. That's where new content creators and social media people come
in. And that's what we're looking for. You know, I remember soccer AM on a Saturday
morning. Yeah. And one of the biggest goals of ATR is to recreate soccer AM for
rugby. And we're going to push the fucking boundary on the content that call it
woke society or whatever. But you know, we're going to really push where politically
correct this and have some fun with it. - Yeah. - I mean, you know, a comedian
doesn't have to apologize for every joke 'cause they're a comedian and we're gonna
be a good fun rugby show that makes people wanna watch and tune into rugby. And
that, again, that's the difference. You know, I think that people got so scared of
showing a big hit or a concussion. They weren't showing the replay of something we
wanted to watch. Meanwhile, UFC have knockout of the year.
- Yeah. - And I'm just saying, I keep saying UFC, but NRL,
NRL show a prop on the back fence and off kickoff, they zoom in on him. That them
videos of Sam Burgess back in the day, just absolutely running it straight. And
you're like, this is great. This is what I wanna watch. This makes me go, I'll
tell you what, there is an art to this absolute animal warfare. Yeah, look,
I think in club, there's so much we can do as a clubhouse, grassroot, you know, I
mean, you're around grassroots way more than I am to know the kind of, there's way
more of a commercial model we can do there. But I think even at the top, I think
we can look across a couple of years ago, last one I'm running, Ryan Wilson was on
Prem Sport. Yeah, and I think it must have been the first year he stepped away And
he miked up and he did the warm -up with Glasgow Brilliant And I was like this is
the fucking best pre -match content i've seen and he's holding a bag and all you
can hear is Like and then even at the final he went on a session afterwards with
them and i'm like that's great That's the best content i want to see you know And
look we we joke about it right like we were joking earlier about like the camera
set up the microphone the audio the lights like it's important that if we're going
to push media out there we have a responsibility to make it good quality content
and I just think when when ITV have got an advert every two minutes and it's the
same boring chat it's like that's not what I want to watch you know and everyone's
going to talk about the Netflix documentary season two might have been some of the
worst sport television ever yet living with the lions was our our original sporting
documentary yeah so how have we got it so right so long ago and then yet when it
is available to us we get it wrong I think that's us trying to accommodate to a
new audience what the Netflix documentary tried to do was try to open it up to a
new genre of people which will only dot in for the Netflix documentary they're not
interested in the rest of it they'll dot in for that because it's it's very it's
made more like a love island -esque model rather than and actually this is what
performance sport is based on there's a bit more a dramatized to it and you're
going to turn certain rugby fans off to it and then you're also going to bring
certain people back in for that documentary
I mean, I'm, I mean, I'm watching the whole thing now, like, so it can be done,
it's slowly happening rugby that you're allowed behind the doors that you now sort
of see inside the changing room that all these celebrations with the Moana Pacifica
lads beating up a dustbin and obviously the shoe army in the saints there's there's
all the different bits that were slowly starting to see that behind the scenes
element of rugby. But until we can potentially break that barrier down and see
behind the scenes properly, rugby will still feel like it's got a ring fence around
it and nobody else is allowed to see what's happens. Look, I know people say rugby
is a complicated sport, right? Once you know it, you know it. Yeah. The chance is
that there's going to be a pod of free with a lead man and a man out back.
Right. And then outside of that, if it goes out back, you might have two runners
with another man out back. Yeah, and you might put a hooker on one side and a six
on the other ready for a crossfield kick, right? We're not doing anything magical
You can I don't understand this whole. Oh, we're not gonna we're not gonna let him
in for tactic I mean if I'm playing against bot here, and I know he's an absolute
monster Or if I know Jack Willis is a great turnover machine. I'll tell you what
I'm gonna do not run the ball near him It's not rocket science. Is it like what
are you giving away? And I just I just think that we Again, it's rugby hurt in
itself like people didn't buy into it. I don't understand like Eddie Jones Oh,
that would have made brilliant telly just Mike him up the whole time like just mark
him up the whole time and Just let him be him. Don't tell him what he can't man.
It must have been it was the last World Cup wasn't it? I think mm -hmm I can't
remember who Wales were playing it might have might have even been The Aussie group
game But they tried to run it at the end of the end of the first half and bigger
like just went get the fucking ball out Yes, and they try to have a go at him
for swearing you're like no If you're running the ball and you're winning it off
time You need to get in the shade kick the fucking ball out like Like, I don't
understand how on one hand, as I said, we, we did get it right. All or nothing,
the all black one was one of the best sporting documentaries at the time, especially
for rugby, right? And then if you look at, as I said, with light. Yeah,
the South Africans chasing us on one and two. And even Rassie's podcast, right? Like
nailed it. They've nailed it. But and you've got a winning team, so you can do it,
you know? Like, we always talk about here, right? Obviously with the URC, you've got
these massive six foot 10 locks, sometimes flying economy to go play in Wells in a
park somewhere, right? With one man and his dog watching the game. Ask him what he
thinks about that and Let him fucking say it. Let him say it, quote it up and get
it everywhere. You know, like have some fun with it as well. We joke about like
the WWE style of drama, right? But UFC embraced that.
- Yeah. - Have a face off. Let them talk smack to each other. You know they're
gonna shake hands at the beginning and a hug at the end, but in the middle they're
gonna try and kill each other. I'm all right with that. I'm all right with them
facing off with each other and just absolutely having a go. Great.
Get both front rows calling each other out. I'd love that. There's been a few times
that they've managed to actually mic players up during games, which I think added a
really good aspect to the game, but it's not done enough. Like there's what football
did it for a period as well where you used to have player cam. You used to be
able to follow your favourite player. You could select it on Sky Sports, I think it
was, and you had the red button, you could pick to follow whoever. We don't have
that, but there's one basic coaching technique. For anyone that coaches under 16s,
etc., mini -youth rugby, you tell them to go away and watch a player in that
position. Find enough clips and for a player in that position that from the point
of view or anything like that, that they can then learn and understand. There's not
enough of it either. And I think that would really help the development of players.
Obviously we've got there's a conveyor belt or top quality athletes coming through.
But imagine that if you could actually coach players from a start from this is how
this position is because we try to bring bring everyone into to the game because
they've got too fat for football or they're too old for that or they're not,
they're not built to do anything else. But rugby, we will embrace them. But they'll
turn up the training and we're like, oh, can you play Saturday? Oh, yeah, I've got
some boots. Oh, there you go. You play 12 or you'll play on the wing because it's
the easiest position in the game because like you've, you've, if you catch the ball,
you just got fucking run. Like, and then, then they slowly start to-- - You've never
played 12, have you? - Yeah, I used to play 12. I've played on the wing as well
before. - Just catch and run, or I'm gonna get some 12s to come and listen to this
podcast and let you know. - Oh, no, no, I said winger, winger. Winger's catch and
run, 12. - Even that. - There's a little bit more. Winger's just, there's nothing
really to it, isn't it? - But this is it, right? I think if you, if you empower
the players to say, "Hey, look, we wanna do some content, right?" And we want you
to talk about that. And I think a real good one to kind of look at from a model
point of view is Luke Drahan, former Welsh sevens player who runs this is sevens.
He's out playing 15s now for in Hong Kong, the Valley, man, he's nice up.
He's filmed games. He's shown it. Max Brown, another one, just the content creator
playing and he's, he's playing war, war sorts. I don't even know what maybe level,
level three, level Yeah, and he's he's showing these games and he's talking about
you know, like if you empower people to do it They'll do it, but you haven't even
given them the option to do it. And I just think that that's where you know for
us specifically We're just gonna keep proving our model and whether that is London
City Sevens or whether that's rugby or championship or whether that's You know,
whatever tournament wants to come and have a look and come up with some good
content and some new ideas and talk to the players and get some new type of media,
man, we'll do it and then we'll just keep rolling it out. And then at some point,
there'll be enough people doing it. Yeah, that whether it's the Prem or the USC or
Super or whoever, they'll become the anonymity. Agreed. I think we've also touched on
it briefly with a ball of league. I think the way that people consume content and
consume games is in a completely different manner now. Obviously, what was it on
Baller League? The first episode or the first week, they had however many screaming
rather than actually watching it on Sky Sports. But how many actual streamers of
rugby are there to add that layer over the top? Because as said, like,
TNT is doing brilliant. They're doing a really, really good effort. Obviously got
David Flatman out there, like David Attenborough around the scrums. He's like, he
does his own little bit and I love that bit as a front row. And there's, there's
people that do, but there's probably other people that aren't that fast because
they're not that way inclined. When Will Greenwood gets to stand in front of a
screen and do a similar sort of model to Gary Neville and Stuff like that
brilliant. That's a really another good bit of content for people to understand What
was it on the NFL? They had a VR headset from one of the quarterbacks basically
saying I'd have picked this decision because this this and this that's another
exceptional bit Why can't if they could do it for this one? Why can't we do it
for rugby? Well, come and we keep going back to the 2003 but The 2003 team of the
last success that we had in England at that top level. We've got, we've had some
very close run things, but people still cling on to that well cut win.
And then unless we potentially break that duck or celebrate the teams that have got
close enough to replicate them where that was, they will continue to be brought back
out. But we bumped into Ben Coe in the other day, didn't we, on the London 67s,
and there's obviously, there are some really, really good lads within the 2003 team
that could probably add further content, but they don't get asked the question as
well. So we've still got rugby values,
we've still got to cling on to that history, but we've got to replace That success
model of the 2003 team with women and another World Cup or celebrate the ones that
have Got to the World Cup final in twenty eight or twenty nineteen or whatever it
was English would be specifically Yeah, right. It's got a bigger issue than that
because when you do have great players and teams They want to knock them down and
I just Marla make the disrespect of Owen Farrell. Owen Farrell is one of the best
English rugby players of all time And I will fight anyone that wants to disagree
with it, right? From a points point of view an appearance point of view a captaincy
point of view Him who he is he's willing this to put a body on the line
championships with england championships with sarasens and we're like Now everyone
wants to to shit on him. Of course. He doesn't want to do media Yeah You know,
and I just, if it wasn't, George Ford was playing fantastic. Well, Fazz was playing
great, but we wanted George Ford. George Ford come in and play great, but we wanted
Marcus Smith. Marcus Smith was playing great. Then we wanted Finn Smith. Finn Smith's
playing great. Oh, who do we want next? It's like this revolving door. Wingers in
England's been the same. Wingers have come and gone, and we've just like, oh,
they're the best thing since sliced bread. And before you know it, we're willing to
chop them down if they don't score. And I just think that we, we're too quick to
hate on our own, you know, and I just think that that's where we need everyone
going now, fuck this, these are superstars and everyone needs to say the same, say
the same. And look, one of the reasons why I think the Toji's should and will go
down as one of the best to do it in England, right? Man, he stands there and he's
himself and if you put him in front of an older crowd, he can adapt. If you put
him in front of the young crowd, he can adapt. You put him Sarri's captain, he'll
be the best player on the pitch. You put him in captain, he'll play A, he'll be
the best player on the pitch. You put him Lyon's captain and he's going to be man
of the series. You know, like everyone now needs to get behind him and be like
Atoji is the best thing in the world at the moment. That's what we need to be
saying, you know, and that's where, as I said, English media is,
I mean, we've seen it in football time after time, right? But it needs to change.
And again, that's where I think that we can, as content creators, influencers,
social media people, whatever, right? We can say what we need to say. It doesn't
always have to be shiny. But when something is good, give it its due. And you
know, like, when it isn't good, if you can make some fun out of it, like, I'm on
the biggest one, right? If there's anything anti Lester, anti Saracens or anti
crusaders, I'm the first one to put it up, right? But at the same time, man,
when Sarah's used to beat Quinn's all the time on the first applaud my hands and
crusaders are having a great season at the moment compared to last great. You know,
I loved it last year when they weren't, but I'm going to say well done. And if
Lentz did do manage to win a trophy, I will say they are the best team in the
world at the moment. But, you know, we're just so willing to go,
oh, what's the next thing and chop down the person at the top. And, you know, and
I think that's where, as I said, the British media really needs to check themselves.
And we need to call out on it. You know, the TNT sport, they, they did it the
other day. Obviously you're talking about flats and the scrum. They actually had
Brian O'Driscoll on the side on, it was a Sunday night game, uh, Exeter.
And there was a scrum setup and he was talking about the positioning of how to,
you know, attack from a scrum. Great. Yeah. Yeah. So as a young person watching
that, that's kind of what we need to see and man, get it all over socials and
keep blowing it up and stuff. What was the program they used to have? Was it the
rugby rugby show or something? They used to have it on like a Wednesday or Thursday
night and they used to have them all. Austin. Austin and they had them all, they
had them come on as guests and they'd like get local grassroots clubs go up and
they'd put them in the positions and be able to talk through technique. That kind
of died off. It needs more fun. Exactly. Like it probably died off because of
boredom. But that is a great platform to showcase that because I rolled it out a
few times when we had like, we said, right, lads, we're just going to go and do a
video room. And I was like, right, we need to this is what we're trying to target.
And I dig out of the old YouTube archives. And the lads were like, God, that looks
old. But I understand now, because I can see it. Like we need to find a way of a
modern way of saying Watsy doesn't have to be done on a in a in a studio.
They could go to all these Premiership clubs and say, right, I want to run this
line out technique. Can we record you guys doing it so that we can show to the
grassroots players or the kids that want to come through and idolize you and
showcase it? And then you can that's another way to get it behind the scenes,
but without getting behind the scenes. Do you know what they're not giving away with
the secrets? - We just have to be more creative with it. And again, I think that,
you know, to give rugby it's due, and I've said this, we've approached everyone,
including World Rugby directly, and they are open to working with third parties now,
like never before. My question was always then, well, why weren't they doing it?
- You know, know, so good for us. I'm happy for us to do it. Don't get me wrong.
But we've missed a big, we've missed a big opportunity that 2019 team for England.
They should have been in the limelight way more. And we just don't get it. And
look, I think the good thing is you're seeing a lot of ex players now kind of
moves to media more recently, right? Like Danny cares on commentary and he's still
playing all the time, you know, and when you watch Good Bad Rugby and Johnny May
comes on or Courtney Laws comes on and even, you know, Ben Young's and Dan Cole
like doing it and still playing is great. We are moving in the right direction. Is
it at the speed we want? No, naturally we want it yesterday, but there's lots of
good things happening. I just hope that everyone can do it and the rest of the
world can, you know, start picking it up. Japan Rugby, for example, there's so much
good stuff happening in Japan. But not enough content going out about it.
No real shows about it going on, no superstars coming out. So of course, you're not
going to see it unless you go to find it. Do you think we're like, I know Premier
Sports have done it, they've done a 24 hour rugby channel. Do you think we as a
sport miss out on that opportunity? There's pretty much, you click on Sky Sports or
anything else, there's a continual football channel, there's a continual tennis
channel, there's a continual whatever. Again, from speaking from someone who's now
doing it, the governing bodies are more willing to help you spread this,
right? So for example, Premiership Today, I've messaged Premiership for some highlights
to share on our social channels to get it to more people. The key is then to make
sure for us that we're not just regurgitating the same thing that's already been
out. Let's find new stuff to put out. Let's find new players to talk about. Let's
find a new way of presenting it whether it's more funny or with more graphics. And,
you know, I think that TV TV's one thing, like TV's are just one area of it.
Socials are completely other. So whether that is YouTube and look at Squidge, for
example, right? The fact that we all call him Squidge. And there's a character that
we think we know. Actually, there's a guy there who's a rugby fan called Robbie
who's built his channel up and, you know, a couple of years ago in the World Cup
when Wayne Barnes put the company what player it was, but he gave a yellow card
and a player shook his hand afterwards, he retweeted it and well rugby took it
down. And I think from that the on that people were like actually hold on a second
we're fighting ourself here so look it's again it comes out into people like us you
know we need to make sure that we're putting out more and we're sharing on at work
and we're trying to not just target each other's fans demographic yeah yeah yeah
because otherwise if it's the same rugby person that sees it on PremSport then they
sit on World Rugby then it's it on yours then then it's like, well, we haven't
won. Like, for example, what you're doing through the leagues, the way you do
grassroots, well, if I start doing that, you should be the first person to call me
up and be like, Oi, what the fuck are you doing? Like, I should be supporting you
and helping you with that. And then likewise, if I go after a demographic, you come
and support me with that. And the more we do that with each other, the better. But
the moment it just becomes this copycat shit, What's the point? Yeah.
There's enough to go around. There's so much rugby out there that everyone can see
and everyone can have their own knee sure. And it's not even sticking to one knee.
There's different bits of rugby that people get exclusive on that others won't,
but it's a way of showing the game and growing the game. People seeing it and more
eyes seeing it is only positive for the Um, and I think streaming is potentially
one of those doors that we it's got to be looked at and having an over overlap of
games like Like we've discussed it previously as well. I think there's probably That
platform like rugby europe was a great experience for us to sort of get together on
that and get the door open. I think The next rugby europe championships just we'll
have an even bigger opportunity there because we obviously we went and experienced
the the first vibe of it because what you call me about three weeks before it
started didn't we and we were in amongst it and I think a lot of players have
really embraced it and the clubs and obviously we still speak with the Spanish team
we still speak with Portugal, Georgia, I've got Mario Mario's coming on from from
the Spanish side and There's a lot of players that Drop me a message and probably
drop you guys a message as well. It was just a thank you for showcasing rugby that
Rugby Europe like obviously the the Germany like I've done the interview with Sean
Ingall the other day Rugby Deutschland would just more than happy just to share
stuff because it was showcasing Germany rugby and the door is open for us to be
able to showcase that and we might not be able to get to every game but there's a
way of, as you said, putting a pre -match in or staggered ways into the lead -ups
of the game. Like this weekend, Bulgaria were playing, you've got Latvia versus
Finland.
People won't have even known that's all unless you're part of it and like if you
could add a stream and a way of commentating over the the rugby Europe commentary
is really really really good but you don't see them you don't there's not at half
time you're just watching an empty pitch you just there's the lead up staggered I
think a lot of just the Middleton was supposed to come on and he will be coming
on later on that he was a He's a really really good commentator enough his
knowledge and his prep for the game is second to none from what I've seen But
that's not showcased as well because you've actually said we showed we showed the
other day a camera on the commentary
Booth The player that those lads is jumping up and down like so I reached out to
him and and even stuff like this Right, so his name is April when he works for
Utah Warriors, right? - Yeah. - So we reached out to him and I said, right, firstly,
I love this. I fucking love this. So thank you for putting it out. Secondly, if I
can reshare any of this, fantastic. Let me know. And thirdly, how do we do more?
So whether that's with you or whether that's with Utah or whether that's with the
MLR, let's do it. And I love stuff like that. You know, I'm like, how do we do
more of it? And Look, I think streaming is a really interesting one. So Tim, who
runs the egg chasers channel, right? Works on the talkspot. He had the same amount
of people on his, uh, British nourished lion stream as the British nourished lion
channel. Yeah. So it's there. You know, it's, and at the same time,
love of rugby did it live. And at the same time, Squidge did it live. And I'm
like, right, how do we create more opportunities for us to do? And maybe it is me
and you jumping on with a six pack of beer and just playing rugby bingo,
right? - Yeah. - And every time there's a scrum penalty, I'm gonna do a shot and
every time there's a drop goal, you're gonna do one, right? Like maybe we do just
push the boat out and stuff like that. And, you know, when we chat to Juan and
he's talking about his experience with eSports, for example, why don't we look at
eSports and go, well, hold on a second, there's a blueprint here. But even
Paramount, Paramount, I've just had David Beckham on, watching the game. And they
filmed David Beckham watching it. Yeah, of course it's going to do well. Because
it's David Beckham. Great. How do we start? You know, and I just think that if not
us, then who? And if not, now, then when? So, you know, next time Spain are
playing, I'm guessing we're going to have a have a beer and a camera. But the
thing is, there's also the fans element as well, because like going back to the
soccer AM stuff, they used to be where they used to lock two rival teams in,
or me, brilliant, sat on sofas opposite, and then they'll be like, they'll be
commentating through the game, they'd have that angle that angle, and then you'd have
that. And then they, they even threw a hand grenade and they said, right, this week
we're going to do it silent. And like, if your team scores, you can't make a noise
and stuff like I just said, and then there'll be one geezer just jumped up and
then another one's falling over each other is all imagine that that's in football.
You might not get a single goal in football. Whereas rugby, if you get a 0 -0 draw
in rugby, that is a proper rugby purist game. That is like, yeah, not for me,
probably for you. I said ultimate gnaws level, but like there's going to be those
chances for a celebration, a miss drop goal, there's a miss kick, there's all that
jeopardy. Imagine having two sets of fans sat in a room with a camera and I ever
told you can't make any noise when your team said, just add that value of there's
a whole different way of doing rugby and there's so many brilliant content creators
out there as well that are doing different ways. Obviously, we met the counter -ruck
team doing that. They do the fit check and stuff like that. Football's got a
terrorist culture of your CP company, your Stone Island, stuff like that. Imagine if
we did a spoof version of, "Oh, where did you get your Gilles from?" and stuff
like that. The
Rugby's got to look at itself a lot heartedly as well because we are shit at
dressing as well. Mate, I've got a call in a couple of hours with Archie Kersen.
Yes. Number one rugby travel. I love it. And I think when you watch Socrates and
you're like, you had good interviews. Yeah. Real good guests.
You had features of going around the grounds. Yeah. And again, we're looking Yeah,
I don't make files away. You had skill school. You had crossbar challenge. You had
a new shirt You had some spoof stuff mate. We are If anyone listening wants us to
come and sponsor this then by all means but I'm in the car park And we fans
coming to the live live studio being in the car park on their way to a game
They'd stop in and then just Shank things over the car park because they couldn't
kick, but they were there and just creating something in front of it. It's I'm
telling you, you can quote down this, this next bit. ATR will do it. I promise you
it'll be it'll be great. Yeah, man. And yes, and it's I said this to you from day
one, like it's for us. Look, going back to the whole collaboration thing, right? If
you win, I win, right? If Max Brown gets more people watching rugby and I'm running
a rugby platform. More people will find me. If TNT are doing a better job at
broadcasting rugby, more people want to watch rugby, which means more people need
places to go for rugby news and I have that. So, you know, likewise, if I get
more fans into the game and all things rugby gets more fans into the game and
offload media gets more players being commercial and getting them out there, we all
win. So as long as we're all working together, Rugby will win, you know,
and that's the biggest thing. That's my little heartfelt moment.
Rugby is the winner, as we say, but us. Wow.
I think we've nailed pretty much every aspect of it at the minute.
So
We've saved it all in one podcast. That's it. No one needs to carry on. What is
the end goal for ATR as well and obviously the Rugby app? Because we talk about a
lot of it behind the scenes. We know what's going on and the angle that the Rugby
app can offer. What is the end goal for the ATR and the Rugby app set up to
change the way that Rugby is is conceived and utilized within society?
Oh, all things Rugby, firstly, will be the number one,
no bullshit place to go. If you want real news, if you want real media,
if you want real interviews, and if you want real conversation, we will be the
number one place to go. And the rugby app point of view, we will give you a
second screen experience like none other like so whether you're in a stadium and you
need to get around the stadium and play little activations and you know get some
vouchers to go to the shop or have beer tokens through the app or vote for your
man at a match, whether you want to check some stats at halftime or your digital
program or whether you're in the pub and you want to argue whether Marcus Smith is
better than Finn Smith that's what That's what the rugby apps therefore We want to
bring a completely new way. You consume rugby both at matches and outside and As I
said when we talk about growing the game, we will do everything we can to grow the
game from the top Because we think if you grow the top the bottom will grow so
How do we help rugby as a whole? We help players, we're going to help commercialize
the players, we're going to help players become their own brands. We're going to
help clubs be more sustainable. We're going to help the business side of rugby. And
in that way, we can have more opportunity to help fans. If we help fans again,
that helps the clubs and just make it a better experience for everyone, both the
fans, the athletes and the shareholders. Yeah, phenomenal. Obviously,
we've got the sevens, we can't avoid sevens. So we've got World Rugby actively
trying to fucking ruin the game. It's probably the safest way to put that
conversation. The Indian rugby seven series potentially being on pause with the
current tensions over there. However, that may play out. But, as you said earlier,
they've changed the face of Sevens and we obviously caught up with Mike Friday and
he's got a lot of opinions of how the game will probably be killed off by the
current change in the Sevens. London City Sevens obviously trying to fill that gap
as we were discussing as well. How do you see the 7th circuit currently and in the
future? Because it can't continue the way that it's just about that hand grenade, I
think. Yeah, look, again, it's an unsustainable product,
which is why they then decided to make a change and we don't necessarily agree with
the changes and I think many people do. But now that they've made it, it's then
right. How do we turn it if so look if you take a team like Kenya off the top
circuit the Kenyan fans go and fill Kenyan corner So then your biggest biggest vibe
in the stadium is now no longer there Which means your in -person product actually
isn't your in -person product anymore?
Look, I've been lucky enough to go to Dubai sevens for a number of years and as
an event is nominal, you know, you have a, you have rugby on the main pitch, then
you have seven other pitches going on, you have a CrossFit event going on, you have
a cricket event going on, you have a paddle tournament going on, you had sugar
babes on Saturday night and storms on Sunday night. It was just, you know, it's an
incredible event. Show that show why you should go to a sevens event and show why
you should want to play sevens to be part of an event like that. And unfortunately,
the current model for commercial TV doesn't work. Three days doesn't work.
Two days of eight hour streaming doesn't work. You know, if I put on sevens and
you've hyped it up, so again, like you spend all week pushing the event and then
the first thing you see on TV is an empty stadium. Before I watch the game, I'm
going to question it because I'm seeing an empty stadium if it was that good one
before. So and that's where the Indian model of, okay, we're going to do a two
week event. And actually, we're going to do two games every night. So it's our
broadcast. Fantastic. Game rest game go. Markey players fantastic.
Show it show it everywhere. But make sure the broadcast is good. Make sure the
commentator is good. I think that they've got an opportunity there to do something
pretty special, right? - Yeah. - In terms of the main circuit,
there's always been a lack of opportunity to compete.
Because there's, and again, I do understand the frustration for World Rugby, right?
There's so many teams now with men's and women's and then I think when they pushed
up to 12, right? That's a lot of expense put in out for then the non -commercial
products coming in. So their idea is like, let's limit it. Let's make sure we get
a commercial and then we'll go from there. And what London sees.
New Zealand, right? And I've got a squad of 30 potential sevens players,
but I can only play 12 will give me an opportunity to send another 12 somewhere
else. Yeah. And then if you say to the clubs, like they did with Queens and Saris,
actually, here's an opportunity to play players that aren't necessarily going to get
enough game time. And you know, you're talking about like the the Lennox's and the
Archie whites who played, you know, a couple of weekends ago who Both played
Premiership. Yeah, so you're sitting there. You're like, right, well They'll step up
and then if you have invitational teams like the simitars and the apaches that are
full Sevens training teams and they play the circuit Yeah,
the standard of competition is gonna be so good that you're giving more people an
opportunity to play why not? and I just think that Even the advertising of sevens
sevens has been wrong. Like, you know, you have to show it for what it is. It's
an amazing weekend away. So show me the weekend. Show me where I can go.
Help me book my flight. Help me book my place to stay. Show me places I can go
afterwards. Put music on at the same time. Put a, you know, you've got to think a
little bit more as an event now. And again, I think this is where formula one took
that next step and formula one has absolutely smashed it out the park. I'm not
saying copy it but there's a blueprint. Yeah. Get music acts, get celebrities,
get TV, you know, have fun with it and then. Cricket got pretty much got it with
the T20, the the hundred, the hundred's got a lot of issues still but my my boys
obviously, as you know, they're seven and five, and we used to go T20, and we
would go to the hundred, and my misses is not that interested in the sport,
but the music on it half time, or in between the intervals and stuff, was the bit
that made it more, there's fireworks, there's all these other bits, there's so many
other bits that we could add to that spectacle, as you said, and I think that's
probably where the Indian 7's circuit will be able to stand out from it, because
eight hours of continual 7's, unless you're a rugby noose is fucking hard work.
Yeah, it's even a lot for us. It's commercialised, mate. As we've, as we keep
discussing, you can't come, you can't keep pumping money into something if you can't
commercialise it. And that's the hardest bit, I think, as well. I agree where you
you sort of come from and we've obviously spoke about the sevens a few times
obviously with with one and that as well and how do you see it changing do you
see well rugby just having to outsource it or somebody come in and step in and
just create it as like a live keep the IPL model bringing another rival one like a
live golf one look competition will always drive excellence right that's one thing. I
don't see that as a bad thing, whether that happens or not. I do think there is
some good people involved. And as I said, I've been lucky enough to talk to the
likes of Rob Vickerman, who obviously played enough and gets it right. And he wants
it to succeed. It's not get anyone is sitting there saying we don't want this to
work. But something has to change. And unfortunately, this whole three,
as you said, three day of eight to eight hour shifts, Man, that's a, no, no one's
going to buy that on TV. And if you buy on TV, no one's going to watch it. So
they need to think about that. And I'm not saying that the two week model for, for
the Indian league is going to be the way forward, right? Again, it's never been
done. So we're going to find out some things. Surely there's a hybrid model. You
don't necessarily need sevens players only playing once, but I remember going to
watch Premiership sevens And turning up to stupid seven p .m. And being out of there
by nine Yeah, and all right. They might have played like the games not might have
necessarily been one on one off one on but Is that the model? How do we make it
more exciting? You know and at some point someone turned around and went to test
cricket Fuck you five days Here's 20 Gonna have a good gonna have a good 20 overs
and then someone went here. Fuck this give them a big bat make the pitch small And
play Hong Kong sixes. Yeah. You know, and even in golf, Tiger Woods has got this
new little TV show with an indoor drive and then a little rotating part and great,
man, you something has to change. And I just think that we've been so stuck in our
way of this is how we do it. Then actually, why not?
What have we got to lose? Yeah. And I like, man, rugby X, I would love to just
have an alternate, alternate universe where COVID didn't happen for a number of
reasons. But obviously we get to see what would have happened with rugby X in a
stadium. Great. Don't worry about the weather. One evening. Great. Easy to go to
lights, cameras, music, atmosphere, smoke machines,
one -on -ones, fan, baller league, right? Yeah. And it wasn't like it was just any
Tom Dick and Harry play, and it was players from the circuit playing. So, again,
that's another one I'd love to understand, like, maybe we need to get hold of Ben
Ryan, have a chat with him as well, because, again, like, that's a concept that
even the one -on -one, we're sitting there, and one of the best things about rugby
is just lining someone up and smoking them, right? Or watching two people go one on
one that have got the footwork and the speed to get past each other. Man, what an
amazing opportunity we had. They've obviously, they've sort of started doing the run
it straight stuff. There's been a few, few of them and Nadolo was on there the
other day and I've seen some of it and that runs a risk of the tackle technique
is horrendous on there and I know that there's an element of you've just got to
run it straight but if somebody's going to get seriously hurt if they carry on with
that way that model is in my opinion like I'm all up for a big it all up for it
but at least like power slaps is fucking bonkers as well like I get there's that
whole level level, but we can't maybe we, there's a way of navigating that run it
straight model without somebody potentially die. Yeah. And, and there actually is one
already out there from Phoenix Sports, right? And I'll, I'll send it over to you.
So Phoenix Sports then did a one on one challenge at different competitions.
So whether it was a sevens festival or whatever, and they did it by category,
right? So yeah, your lighter lads, your back freeze, your light centers, your fly
offs, they'd be one on one, but they'd be trying to use footwork to get around
each other. Yeah, obviously, your bigger boys were looking for big hits. But kind of
same mini grid. I mean, this run it straight is pretty, I mean, it's pretty much a
cricket wicket, right? Like just yeah. And I think I saw the first kind of head on
head collision the other day. and yeah, it was pretty gnarly. But look, there is
alternatives out there. Again, we need to get behind it. Former Namibian captain used
to play for Queens, Ronaldo Boffma has got his own streaming platform now called
Octafield. And he's he's showing it. And again, it's mainly in South Africa. But
that's something that again, like, if you can get the highlights for and start
pushing, you can start pushing that model a little bit more. And then if you then
say, right, we're gonna have a sevens competition. and at the sevens competition, you
can get in for this under 85 kilo, one -on -one competition where you'd have to use
footwork and you started that way and then you actually go right. For the bigger
boys that are committing to doing good tackling, we'll do it. And if you put a
high shot on your straight out, run it straight again, best out of three, knock
your opponent out, which is
pretty out there. Yeah. Yeah, look, I think there is again, there is hybrid models,
we don't have to go all the way to the to the left and we don't have to go all
the way to the right, you know, like we have to find what works in the middle and
showcase that. And I think that's where, again, if you went for the doesn't have to
be under 85 kilo, like kind of the rug beats, but if you went for more of a
skill based element, where it's one on one, and we're going to show your footwork,
for example. And then you did it like like NFL do like NBA do at the end of the
end of the season with you all star games and with the skills challenge, you know,
like pro pro bowl, right? If I showed you the very first presentation ever put
together for all things rugby pro bowls on that, I'm like, imagine getting Kirtle
Aronsa and Colby in a one on one challenge and as part of that, I have to do
other stuff. Like little things like this, like we just haven't Explored it yet in
rugby and now's the time that you know, we're We're in a we're in a position where
like we've just had a chat There is a few things that aren't going fantastic and
everyone's now aware of them Actually, what we need is a good pick me up and
something like this would be great. You know drop kick challenges Why wouldn't you
take the best fly -offs at a season and just do a drop kick challenge? Yeah In New
Zealand, they did the mascot race. It's my favorite bit of content I've seen all
year, right? But imagine that imagine that if you took the top 10, top starting 10s
in the Prem, and you did a like almost like penalty shootout, right? Honeck and cup
style, or you did a dropkick challenge, and they build up points. And then at the
end of it, you had a certain win for it. Fantastic. Yeah. Oh, I get the clubs are
signing. Gotta get the clubs to sign You have to know and that's the yeah, but why
don't why couldn't we start that with Academy players at these clubs? Yeah,
yeah, and then just again, it's the proof of concepts. Yeah, and and and that's
where For us, I don't mind where we started. I don't mind if it's London City
Sevens or rugby Europe Championship or
Middlesex, you that doesn't matter. Let's let's do it. Let's learn from it.
Let's make it better. Do that a few times. We have to be humble enough to go. We
need to make this a product first, a commercial product. And again, that's what
that's what ATR is about. One of our biggest things is we're going to prove we can
do it to then roll it out.
Exciting times ahead, mate. And yeah, it's Rugby needs that injection of positivity
and an alternative option as well. I think the porridge landscape has got come to
an end.
And we're very lucky. All right, we get to work in a sport that we absolutely
fucking love. Yeah. And the difference is we're both sitting in, not just saying how
shit is, but we're saying here's what we want to do to help fix it. You know, and
I think that that's where if everything was sorted and we didn't have this
opportunity, would we love it as much? I certainly know that, like, more I've got
involved in the business side of the sport, the more I've enjoyed it. Because
there's just more to think about now, and I love it, you know, like, and don't get
me wrong, it's hard to sit there and watch a match without sitting there going, how
would I sell them seats? What's the queue for the bar, like, actually, what's the
hospitality like at halftime? How did they get to and from the stadium, all this
other shit, you know, but I still think there's a, it takes people that really love
this game to want to see it do well and to then go and do it. So whether that
is podcasting or whether that is journalism or whether that's content creating or
whether that's business, I think there's enough good people here that we're gonna
really show why this game is so great. And, you know, we've already always said at
ETR, like 2031 World Cup in America is the biggest opportunity to change this game
altogether. If you crack that American market, you have that many amazing athletes
there. If you can help America become a superpower, and the league is good,
and then all of a sudden more people want to go and play in that league, and then
all of a sudden it's like, Oh, actually, I'm not just getting up early morning to
watch Super Rugby but I've got to get up early or stay up later to watch MLR. I
just think that we've got such an amazing opportunity with this game still because
we're still so young.
Imagine that being able to stay up, watch ATR match of the day highlights, then
carry on with your MLR and then straight on to Super Rugby. I'm telling you now
that I have lights in the office and a microphone, you never know. I'm I just
start streaming every game. Just I don't I don't I don't think you'll look as
fresh, mate, if you're having to stay up all that time. This this was just for
you, mate. This was just you saw. You saw what I look like in London. I didn't
even manage it to that. So yeah, mate, it's been an absolute pleasure.
We could carry on forever. And I'm sure there's going to be a second episode for
this, because we've actually now got to be probably held accountable for what we
said we're going going to do so we'll definitely get another one in. I just want
to say thank you for all the opportunities as well for Rugby TTL and obviously
can't wait to be part of the ongoing success that is the ATR as well. Listen I
said it during person and I appreciate you personally appreciate you professionally
and glad that we've had an opportunity to jump on and actually chew the fat and
some stuff. That's it. So, everyone, thank you so much for joining. I hope you
really enjoyed this one and will keep us accountable for all the bits that we said
we're going to do. Hopefully, you get to see a soccer rugby AM version coming soon
on an away days tour. Who knows? But if you want to keep abreast of everything
that we're doing, obviously, you've got the rugby app where you can get all the
content from all things rugby, allthingsrugby .com as well. you might even see a few
of my articles there. And make sure you subscribe to YouTube, obviously Instagram,
you've got that and all things rugby, Graham over there as well to keep abreast of
all the stuff they do. But thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. And
goodbye.