Rugby TTL - Series 2 -Episode 3 - Simon Middleton Interview

Rugby Legends Featuring Simon Middleton: Insights on Coaching and the Future of Women's Rugby
In this episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast, we welcome Simon Middleton, former England Women's Rugby Manager. Simon shares his journey from playing junior rugby union to his coaching career, including his transition to rugby league and his impactful tenure as the head coach for the England Women's team. He provides invaluable insights into coaching at the grassroots and professional levels and discusses the challenges and evolution of women's rugby. Simon also answers audience questions, offering advice for aspiring young coaches and reflecting on pivotal moments in his career. Don't miss this deep dive into the world of rugby with a true legend of the game. Like, subscribe, and share your thoughts in the comments!
00:00 Introduction and Guest Announcement
00:28 Simon Middleton's Rugby Journey
01:23 Transition to Coaching
02:37 Challenges and Triumphs in Coaching
03:25 Involvement with England Sevens and Fifteens
06:44 Coaching Philosophy and Legacy
11:51 Advice for Aspiring Coaches
21:54 Women's Rugby and Social Media
33:17 Naturally Gifted Players and Coaches
38:19 Switching Between Rugby League and Union
44:55 The Unique Strengths of Rugby League Players in Union
45:19 The Toughness and Work Ethic of Northern Players
49:02 The Physical Demands of Rugby League vs. Rugby Union
50:38 The Evolution of Rugby Skills and Coaching
54:15 Reflecting on the 2022 World Cup Final
01:01:18 The Impact of COVID-19 on Rugby Training and Performance
01:07:23 Transitioning from Coaching to Consulting
01:11:23 The Growth of Women's Rugby Globally
01:14:36 The Future of Women's Rugby Competitions
01:28:09 Predictions for the 2025 World Cup
01:30:04 Closing Remarks and Upcoming Episodes

Transcript

Rugby TTL – Series 2 – Episode 3 – Simon Middleton Interview
Carl: [00:00:00] Hello. And we are here for another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Uh, as this, this episode was pre-planned for a little while, we've, uh, we've managed to finally get Simon Middleton on ex England Women's Manager, a a legend within the game. And it's been an absolute honor to finally get him on.
I managed to message him pretty much oh, a good six months or so ago. And then, uh, we've finally managed to get it, get it on. So, Simon, thank you for joining us. Uh, for those that aren't aware who you are, can we get a bit of a run through of your, your rugby career and where you've been, what you've done, and uh, where we are?
simon middleton: Uh, yeah. Uh oh. Uh, that first of all, thanks for thanks for having me on. Uh, always great to chat about rugby love.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: We do, we'd love chatting rugby. Uh, so I'm a bit of a cross coder. Uh, started out in rugby Union. Uh, just playing junior level. Then I went and played, uh, at Castleford Rugby League.
I had about six years, seven years at Castleford. Uh, played [00:01:00] quite a bit of Super league, so that's probably where I played my standard of rugby. Uh, and then through my lower of rugby union, I went back there. Towards the back end of my career, I had, uh, I had a couple of seasons, a little bit of time with Ottley, uh, who were a beautiful club, uh,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: up in Yorkshire.
And then, uh, and then I went to Leeds and I had about 18 months finishing my career at Leeds. And, on the Phil Davis, joined the coaching staff at Leeds, uh, a skills coach, then defense coach. And I spent 12 years, 12, 13 years at Leeds, uh, playing it and coaching. Uh. Before, uh, I actually went for the head coach's job after, 'cause I'd been assistant coach and I'd, I'd done mo most things.
And then finally under Neil back and whatnot, I'd become more of an assistant covering most things. And I thought I'm probably probably ready for my head coaching and, uh. Anyway, Neil left. I went for head coach role, didn't get it. Uh, and I ended up, uh, [00:02:00] uh, well outta work for the first time ever. 'cause all through my playing and coaching career right up to around.
So when Stu Lancaster were, head coach, I, I had a, I had a full-time job as well, so I, I was
Carl: Oh
simon middleton: and
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: very much not busy and I didn't have any work. And I had two very young kids you, a wife and a mortgage. And, uh, and I went to work at college, uh, a director of rugby at college in Hull.
Carl: Oh wow.
simon middleton: there working with, uh, young people between 16 and generally between 16 and, and 21. And it was, it was the hardest job I've ever had for lots of reasons. But it was, it was almost the best job I ever had as well. It
Carl: Yeah, I could imagine.
simon middleton: uh, anyway, two years into that. Uh, I'd done some guest coaching with England, uh, under Gary Street, really good friend of mine. Uh, and I got a phone call to see if I wanted to join England primarily, uh, or well primarily with the fifteens, but was starting out, uh, as sevens head coach. And, uh,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and I got into the sevens role with England, uh, into [00:03:00] 2014. And that, uh, and that, that sort of led me into the World Cup 2014 as a 15 coach, assistant coach with Gary and Graham Smith at the time.
And, uh, you know, that that went really well for us. And then, uh, the year after I became head coach and I was head coach till, uh, 2022, 2023,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: yeah. So that was in a, in a nutshell, that's been my playing coaching career.
Carl: So obviously you, you, you dabbled in the, the GB sevens as well. So what, how did the, how did that sort of fall? Did nobody else put their hand up or did you kind of think I see a fancy, fancy and having a go or,
simon middleton: Uh, I think, I think I, I were in the driving seat simply because England were a full-time program on the World Series and England
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: were chosen to, to qualify gb. Uh, so once World Cup, the fifteens, world Cup was over, went back into the sevens, did the World Series, and then the, the, the, the, the Rio Olympics was, was obviously being, uh, you know, the, the sevens had [00:04:00] just, had just been accepted in there. And, uh, the, the men's and women's sort of interviews were done. And, and I, I, I applied off the back of working with England and, uh, yeah. And I got, I got the role and, uh, yeah, that's how, how I ended up in, in Rio.
Carl: Yeah, pretty, pretty amazing place to probably go and plow. Plow your track. How did you manage to, obviously when you, you, you got that role there as the head coach, how did you sort of transition between sevens and fifteens? Because I've spoke to a couple of coaches that have sort of been pocketed as sevens specialists, and then that you did, did you?
Did you worry that you might be sort of categorized as that, or did you manage to separate it or do you think because you had your league background, you were able to sort of stand out from that or,
simon middleton: yeah. I, to be honest, I, I, like, I certainly didn't class myself as a sevenths coach. Like literally
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: I got the job with England, I bought a book outta play sevenths. [00:05:00] kid you not. I did because I'd only, I'd only coached like the sevens team at the college in Linton Sevens, which we won. I, great win for us.
We'd never won it before. We had the bragging rights to East Yorkshire, which meant an awful lot for the college. So I was well in
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: uh, I, I, I literally got the job and, uh, and, and I did, and I did enjoy coaching sevens when I dabbled with it But then like, right, this is gonna be a different ball game altogether in terms of the level you're operating at.
And it was, it certainly was. Yeah. I was straight in. Like, I, I finished, I finished the college, the job at the college, and my first gig was a double head. We flew to Atlanta and then we flew to, we flew to Sao Paolo for a double
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: And I had to do quite a bit of research and quite a bit of, you know, into. What, what sevens looks like these days. And I did, I bought a book and it was written by Mike Friday, Simon a Moore, Ben
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: experts, they'd all chipped
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: I thought, it can't be that a can. And I [00:06:00] looked and I, and it, and it didn't see me. But, but then I thought, well, you've gotta, you've gotta do, you've gotta apply what you know and,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: And so I, I, I sort of looked at how England ad been playing and went and, and I thought, yeah, okay, I can see some inroads here. I can see how we can make a difference. And, and I put my own slant on it, which I'm not quite quite sure who was a traditional sevens edge to edge. I remember Alice Richardson was a brilliant sevens player. One said to me, I don't know why we don't use proper training in a squash court, which, which tickled me, but, but we, yeah, we use short sides a lot, that type of thing. But anyway, uh, so I always classed myself as a fifteens coach, but I really enjoyed my, my seven. So the transition bit was okay. And what I did do as well was, when I got the England job, I could recruit my own staff and I recruited Matt Ferguson in to do the forwards and Scott Bemand in to do the back.
So, and Scotty took the lead [00:07:00] coach role on when I wasn't there. So although I dipped in and outta the programs, I was very much. focused all the way through to the end of Rio. Uh, and I would just go in and support, you know, support the program from a, an observational point of view. And, uh, you know, and we would, as a coaching group, we would kick ideas off, but I was really keen to let Scotty, Scotty lead it, uh,
Carl: Nice.
simon middleton: in there.
They were fantastic coaches and I, we had a good staff as well, and,
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: so I didn't have to, there, there wasn't a massive amount of switching between sevens and fifteens. There was one year where it, it did get pretty tricky, a bit busy, but off the back of that, I thought we, we sort of realized that as well.
It, we, we need two roles.
Carl: Yeah, fair enough. At least. Uh, and that's the, that's the best way of, sort of in a management or sort of coaching role, is to bring in the, you bring in pet people that are better than you, so it makes your role easier.
simon middleton: It's the, for me it's the, it's probably when people talk about legacy and things like that, f for me, I. The, the [00:08:00] quality of staff that we brought together and we built the program around is the legacy. Uh, because you, you are a product of what you put in, you know, the old, you know,
Carl: Yeah. Cliche.
simon middleton: thing is,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: You, you put really good people around, good players, and you'll get an outcome, a good outcome. And uh, and that's been very much my philosophy on, on sort of leadership and management is very much about getting the right people in the room. Uh, and, and that's what we did with England. And, you know, we, and we never really looked back.
Carl: Right. So obviously, uh, the, the women's, the women's game as well, how did you sort of come across into that? Was that because of your involvement in the sevens and they sort of scouted that across, or was it that you felt that you could make a, a more of an impact in there, or was
simon middleton: like, he, he was purely, it was purely through my relationship with Gary, uh, Gary
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: when I was at Leeds, like we, we were in the prem, so I was coaching in the maintenance premiership with [00:09:00] Leeds, which, which was fantastic. Uh, but I was doing my level four but coaching badges and I was on the same, same course as Gary.
And uh, and Gary was obviously a head coach of the women at the time, and he was like, look, we, we are always trying to bring guest coaches in, and our defense are come in doing some defense. I was defense coach at least at the time, and I was like, yeah, a hundred percent mate. Uh,
Carl: Yeah. Brilliant.
simon middleton: turn down an opportunity to coach your country. Uh, the, the coach coaching the women piece, I never really overthought that. I was just
Carl: It was just rugby
simon middleton: Yeah,
Carl: it. It was rugby, yeah.
simon middleton: And, uh. And, and that was it. And I went and I did some guest coaching, uh, and, and, and I did a bit more. It was in the buildup to the 2010 World Cup.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and I just, I, I, I sort of become defense consultant through to, to that tournament.
And then, and then after that, uh. You know, we, we stayed close and I came in and did and did more coaching with him. And, and while I was at the college, I got a call from, from Nick Ponsford saying, look, we we're [00:10:00] going to do, we're gonna play the Euros in Italy. Uh, Gary's not gonna go, Graham's gonna lead if defense's going as assistant coach. Uh, and I had a chat with a, with a principal of the college, a lady called Jeanette Dawson, who was massive, massive rugby union fan, Leicester Tigers
Carl: Brilliant.
simon middleton: Through and through. And she was, she was like, yeah, you know, you gotta go. And,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and I went and we had a really successful Euro. So that embedded me even more into the program.
And then, you know, when the scenario enrolled with regards to the sevens and the fourteens, the 2014 World Cup, that's how it rolled into it. But I'd never. I never thought I'm gonna go in there and try to be a champion of the women's women's game or anything. I just wanted to coach,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: my country. I saw great players and great potential when I went in, and I just thoroughly enjoyed it. So I, I generally, I generally chase things that inspire me and, and,
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: and that inspired me working with, with, with the players at that point. And obviously playing for your country or [00:11:00] coaching your country well, but it's, it like playing for your country if that doesn't inspire you.
Nothing does. Uh, but, you know, a a lot of, a lot of things being in the right place at the right time, there's an awful lot of luck involved in working your way through, almost a career. It's, it's what you do with those breaks that, that's, that's the key bit. Uh, but I, you know, I've been, I've been very lucky.
I've had a couple of big moments in my, in my career from a playing and a coaching point of view, being in the right place at the right time. And, and if you don't take 'em, then you've know, just blame yourself.
Carl: exactly. That, that, that leads us on to, to a, as, as I said to you earlier, we, we put a little bit out on our social media to try and see anyone that wanted to try and pick your, pick your brains and Sam XX three on TikTok actually put a quite a. Poignant question for, for where we're at in the conversation.
What advice would you give to someone wanting to be a pro rugby coach, but is only in their early twenties?
simon middleton: Uh, [00:12:00] I think you have a passion for it and a desire for it, it doesn't matter what you, and I've talked to quite a few coaches who, who are young because they, they've because they've, they've not played, or b because they've played and they've had to retire. And at the end of the day, you gotta, I think people look at it at times and think it's, it's almost like a. Uh, uh, a negative being young and coaching, it's not, you've gotta
Carl: no,
simon middleton: into a positive. So the energy that young people bring, the association they bring, and particularly with Gen Z these days, who think very differently from when I first started coaching. So the, the connection that you have with those young people can be massively important. Uh, but at the end of the day, the principles remain the same. You know, you, you, you, you need a passion for it. You need a, a philosophy. Uh, you need good relationship skills for sure these days. Good communication skills. But if you've a passion for it and you and above all, you've gotta work [00:13:00] hard. If you wanna make it to the top, you have gotta be prepared to work so hard because it, it is a great job to be in playing and coaching is a great job to be in.
Any job is that. You love doing, but if
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: be successful at it, you're probably gonna work a lot of hours and a lot of unreasonable hours. And you're gonna have to make some really tough choices. And I, and I pick my words carefully there because I don't say sacrifices 'cause they're not,
Carl: no, not, not.
simon middleton: pri privileged position. a lot of sacrifices made by people who support you, but you have to make tough choices about where you're gonna be at certain times. Uh, so if you're prepared to work hard, if you're prepared to make tough choices, you learn your craft, you stay open-minded, uh, yeah. You, you know, pretty much basic principles of being successful in any business.
Carl: Yeah, exactly. And as you say, if you, you find a job that you love, you, you'd never work a day in your life effectively. So, and as you said, just because somebody puts a label [00:14:00] thinking their, their early twenties, they, they're, as long as a lot of people understand they're not gonna walk straight into a head coach's role, then you've kind of gotta do the hard, hard yards to, to find and pick up your knowledge from other people.
Like, as you said, you gained your experience through sort of. Uh, entering in as an assistant coach, as defense coach, you, you're not gonna walk straight into the top job, but you've gotta do the dirty bits to understand how to do that top role. You, you're not,
simon middleton: a
Carl: if it's handed to you, you, you're not gonna appreciate the graft that you have to put in to get there.
simon middleton: yeah. And, and, and to be honest, if it gets handed to you, you're probably not gonna stay there very long
Carl: Correct? Correct.
simon middleton: good at what you do. Uh, because again, you know, I, again, I've had a lot of luck in, in the way things have rolled out for me. Uh, so through playing at Leeds a team and in a. In a sport that was just starting to really feel its way in rugby union,
Carl: [00:15:00] Mm-hmm.
simon middleton: Rugby union had a big, put a big emphasis on rugby league expertise, where when it, when it shifted professional defense
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: players, et cetera, et cetera, it were a complete flip of what had been happening previously. And I was, again, probably right time, right place. And, and I got asked by Phil, he, he was like, listen man, I'm not gonna give you another playing contract, but do you, do you wanna stay on and do some coaching? And, and for me, it suited me at the time because as I say, I had a full-time job, so I didn't
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: it, you know, it was, it was a minimal amount of, uh, of cash, which wasn't really important, but it kept me in the environment.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: I didn't wanna play anymore. I'd, I categorically did not want to play anymore When I finished, completely played out, I thought, but I thought I'll really miss the environment. like we, we'd, we'd just been promoted into the premiership. So I literally went
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: coaching in the premiership.
Just a skills coach.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: with good players and I was working with a group of players and I knew, so it wasn't particularly daunting for me. Uh, we got to the end of that season, [00:16:00] we did a review. We finished bottom, but didn't get relegated because Rotherham couldn't come up 'cause it didn't fulfill the criteria.
So we got another lucky break. Uh, and Phil was like, what, what do you think we need? And I was like, we need defense coach because we're, we're scoring points, but we, we can't stop conceding.
Carl: right.
simon middleton: do you, what do you think? And one of my best friends is Mike Ford. Uh, 'cause I played at Castleford
Carl: Oh,
simon middleton: Well,
Carl: Andy.
simon middleton: been defense coach at Ireland, et cetera, or,
Carl: Yeah. Yeah.
simon middleton: defense coach at Ireland. A a after, a little bit later, but he was just it anyway. Phil was like, tell you what how do you fancy doing it. And I was like, yeah, okay, I'll give it a crack. And we had a, we had a really good season. So, so I, I, I entered at a really high level, but as,
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: the years rolled out, it, it became very apparent to me what I didn't know. And, and I remember being put in charge of the, the A team when Neil back and Andy Key were at Leeds. Uh, and, and Andy was like, Andy was great for development. Uh, and he was like, listen man, you take [00:17:00] this on, you run the A team. So it's like bit of an introduction to head coaching.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: And I was so far out in my depth, even though I'd coached 10 years defense in the premiership.
Well, in and outta the pre premiership, I was so far out of my depth because I just did not have an attacking philosophy. I did
Carl: Right,
simon middleton: trying to mimic what Andy was doing, and I was like, and I was so uncomfortable with it. Uh, so I took a job on, I. Coaching my local team. And then when
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: out at Leeds, I went to the, to the college and I coached there.
And between coaching Pontefract Rugby Union club, which is where I live, and coaching the college side, I actually learned about attacking rugby and head coaching. So I, I learned it at grassroots level. I didn't
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: the top. I would become an head coach.
Carl: no, that's that, and I think that epitomizes grassroots rugby as well, that a lot of people are able to. To transition between the two. You could have a job at a top level when there is obviously that [00:18:00] demand, but there's so many grassroots rugby clubs that are willing to take on people just to help develop them and develop the club.
simon middleton: Yeah.
Carl: there's enough players within the game that have been around long enough that can help you strengthen your skills. It's not just going in and doing what you know, you can also learn off other people. And I think that's probably the best option to, to feed back to Sam, is just try and absorb and get yourself in the right places, wherever you can, wherever you can go and learn from someone that's had that experience.
simon middleton: Yeah, just keep getting yourself in there. Get yourself in, keep learning, keep taking opportunities to learn. Uh, keep experimenting with different environments, different groups, different ages.
Carl: and I think, I think that also, so I sort of, I've just come to the end of coaching the under sixteens in Spain. So I coach s sixteens. I've done it for the last sort of year or so, and, um. I understand what you say when you, you try and talk there, there's a different way of approaching the younger generation.
Like [00:19:00] I'm, I'm nearly 35 now and I'm still, I'm stuck in that middle bit 'cause I kind of grew up with the, the older generation I went, I started working when I was sort of 18, went straight into, into that life. So I got a different sort of value set and then I'm trying to watch how these kids have gotta navigate around it while they've also got parents that are in the similar bracket to that I'm, and it's like I don't envy their position.
Like I don't envy having to be in between the two, two ways. And then I've, my, my boys are seven and five as well. And then you've got a whole different generation there again and you've, as long as you try and it's not even just try and blend in, it's not trying to be like a chaemeleon 'cause you can't change who you are, but you've got to understand how they react to different, different ways of doing things.
simon middleton: So I, I mine are are 24 and 20. So I've,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: plenty of good lessons from them as, as I've gone along. But what, what became very [00:20:00] obvious to me because what I classed myself as a traditional coach, probably at one point. Uh, and, and there were specific ways of how I would coach the side.
And, and I think I've always been, you know, I've always been, uh, good at communicating with, with the players. Probably not as, not as frequent as I should have, but I, I do try to understand, you know, I learn this is way I learned so much at the college and probably
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: not dealing with 'em as well as I should have done, uh, at the college.
And, uh, but. It became very apparent to me that when, when I, when I came in in 2014, the average age of the squad was about 29. And I thought one of
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: we have to do is get the age of the squad down.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: That was a squad. I'd been together a long time. When we got to 2017 World Cup, I think the average age was about 24, 25. And I'm another three years older, and it was quite obvious to me that I'm gonna, this trend will just carry on. I'm gonna keep getting [00:21:00] older. The
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: gonna get, getting younger, like, you've gotta get into their world because you, you can't, you're gonna ask them to come into your world for certain things about how you play, about certain non-negotiables, but you have to understand what's important to 'em.
I like, I don't, I don't do social media. I ne never have, uh. Uh, but I understand how important it is for them, and I
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: how important it is in the new world as we call it now.
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: so it's like, I, I certainly don't, uh, disrespect it. It's got a huge, huge place in their lives and in, in, in sport and,
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: know, and just the world.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you've gotta, you've gotta move into their world, which is why I say, you know, if you, if you're a young person who's learning the trade coaching wise, you've actually got a head start.
Carl: Yeah, yeah, agreed. Uh, obviously there's a lot of pressure, not a lot of pressure. There's a lot of noise around the social media usage within the Red Roses a minute. A lot [00:22:00] of the, the women's rugby you're having to create their own brand, which I'm massively on board with. I think it's brilliant that they were able to create a, a persona and a, and a character around how they, they are and, and sort of connect with, with the, um, with the fans.
Because the men's rugby's are completely different. Kettle fish, it's more tailored towards a team sport. You see more of a tailored social media aspects for a team rather than individuals. But I think that's potentially the catalyst of where Men's Rugby's not moving forward because players aren't allowed to create their own brand.
Yeah. Whereas Women's Rugby's able to step out from that and create their, they do all the TikTok dances and stuff. I can't dance, so that's why I don't do them. Uh,
simon middleton: no.
Carl: but, uh, what John Mitchell's doing as well at the minute within the Red Roses, he's also fully embraced it really well as an he. He gets dragged into it and, um, [00:23:00] he looks really awkward with it, but he embraces it.
So you obviously sort of left a couple of years ago and, and handed the, handed the baton across. Did you ever feel that you, you sort of could delve into it, or did you just sort of say, I understand it, but I, that's just not me. And I would look Stu really, really awkward if I'd started trying to get involved in it.
simon middleton: Yeah, no, stupid would be the word. Which it's, yeah, it, it, you, it, it's such a great point because, uh, could sort of see the way the game was going. The, the women's game is, so different from the men's game. The
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: totally different. Match days, a totally different experience. And, and, and as I say, I, I think, I think it's a great topic.
You, you've, you've brought up here because it's something that I think about an awful lot and
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: like, is, is the women's game a performance sport? and foremost, it's a performance sport, first and foremost [00:24:00] is a performance sport. I would, I would argue it's maybe not now
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: terms of the most important thing that drives the audiences, that drives the energy in it, it's. It's almost like a, an experience. They want it to be a real experience about connections expressing themselves. And don't get me wrong, like you watch England play over the last, in particular, over the last, four games in the, in, in the, in the six s. They're, they're
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: They're so good. Like, I'm not saying that the players are not talented and they're not performance focused.
I know they are, but just
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: about the game as a whole now, which is the direction it's taking. I think the men's game is still about being European champions, uh, being premiership champions. I, I think the, the women's game is very much about how do we express ourselves? How do we, what does that, what does entertainment look like for us?
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: and, and it's, it's, it's probably just more all encompassing and, uh, you know, you, you watch how much they [00:25:00] enjoy the environment and enjoy being
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: other.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you know, you talk about do I connect with social media and things like that? So. Six Nations two weeks ago, uh, there was a, the, the, the sort of scenario where at the end of the game against Wales, Sarah Bern comes
Carl: Oh,
simon middleton: to do Tik Tok dance, brings Jas joyce with her,
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: aware there. So my reaction is Berner, I'll hold the camera. I'm not getting in on this.
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: there is not a cat in Hells chance and just come back to what he said about would you do what John Mitchell's doing? I, I haven't seen any of the stuff he's done Good on him. No,
Carl: He, he is,
simon middleton: I'll support it and I will not be involved in it. But, uh, but you know, Jas gets hammered off the back of that by
Carl: uh, it's, it's a,
simon middleton: you know, I know Jas, she was in the
Carl: yeah. Yep,
simon middleton: a triple Olympian.
Carl: yep.
simon middleton: an outstanding sports person and an outstanding person. And she, uh, a great athlete works so hard. I. [00:26:00] So hard. Like she's just embracing what the culture is now
Carl: Yep.
simon middleton: game. And, and people need to understand and differentiate. You're not looking at the men's game when you're looking at the women's game. You're, you're
Carl: No.
simon middleton: totally different sport in terms of what the audience is, what the audience wants, and what the players skill. 'cause it's a skill. Entertaining is a skill, and the, and the
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: like that.
It, it is part of their craft now and, and
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: it, so
Carl: I think it's more of a family, women's rugby, because obviously they play, they're, they, they're, they're, they're together so much as the, in the PWR, obviously the PWR then rolls straight into the six nations, and then the six nations ends, and then we've got that period before. What is probably gonna be the biggest world cup in women's sport like that is probably the, this is the, this is the, the pinnacle where it is so far, it's on that step, and then it's gonna go on again.
It's. You're managing to bring players across from the sevens and from the other [00:27:00] other parts to go and play in this World Cup that are just to be able to try and push it. So you've obviously got Ilona Mahers come across, played in Bristol, and brought another aspect of social media to these, to these players.
And it is a family. They, they are a family. They, they know each other inside out from playing together. And then when they get on the pitch and they'll, they, they leave that bit there. Once they've done that, they, they're all back together as mates. And I don't see, I don't see the noise. I don't see why the noise need to be there.
As you said, it's a completely separate brand. It's a completely separate game in that sense. And women's rugby's on a different path to men's rugby.
simon middleton: Yeah,
Carl: And it, it becomes a bit, it's a bit more NFL like, isn't it? Because
simon middleton: Yeah.
Carl: you, you literally wanna encompass, everyone goes, does a fan day, they do everything.
Everyone is together. Whether you are wearing an England shirt, Welsh shirt, there's always that gonna be that rivalry. But in the women's game, it's, it's [00:28:00] not as sort of hostile, not it, not the rugby, but
simon middleton: no, I think you're right. You, you, you're completely right. It's not, it, it's a real party atmosphere.
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: it, it doesn't, you
Carl: I,
simon middleton: you, you, the, the fans, you know, the, the Wales, Scotland, Ireland, the, you know, they copped a, bit of a beating from England over there. The fans stay there. The fans still wanna see their, their, their players at the end.
They still
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: uh, selfies. They still wanna have autographs. They still wanna pat 'em on the back and tell 'em how great they
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: Uh, and, and you've, you know, you, you gotta. can you not embrace that? Because these, these, these players are, are under massive pressure. They're under massive players.
They're train hard.
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: they're trying to make a living outta what they're doing. And if they're not, if they can't make a living outta their own, they're working and then they're training, and then they're playing, they're playing for
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Uh, there's a lot of expectations, a lot of pressure on them.
So, you know, I think at the very least what we have to do is embrace what they're trying to do [00:29:00] with their sport. Uh,
Carl: Yep.
simon middleton: because certainly in terms of connecting with their audience, it's working. Uh,
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: and they've gotta keep trying because we, we constantly talk about how are we gonna grow the game? How do we keep the game moving forward? And nobody has a better feel for it than the generation that are play in it.
Carl: yeah, yeah. I, I agree. I, I, I think le leave women's rugby to grow how women's rugby is, it's a completely different performance sport to, to men's. So there's, there's a whole completely different audience as well. There's, there's some of the old guard of the men's rugby that. Aren't interested in women's rugby.
There's no point of beating round the bush. Some just that's, that's brilliant. But that's not for me. And that's fine. 'cause you can't please everyone in everything because otherwise it'd be boring life if everyone was watching the same thing. But let them grow that and then men's rugby will grow in its own manner.
But the problem is men's rugby may run the risk of being overtaken by [00:30:00] women's rugby if it doesn't take certain changes.
simon middleton: Well, if, you know, if you don't learn from what's evolving around you and evolving successfully around you, then you know it's there. There's, there's something wrong, isn't there?
Carl: Mm-hmm.
simon middleton: but, but I, I agree with you. You know, there's, if, if people wanna follow the men's model and only the men's model, and, and that's absolutely fine.
I totally understand that. Uh,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: still a performance coach. Uh, at heart, I'm a performance. I wanna see a great game. I want to see great players doing great things. Do I enjoy everything that comes off the back of the women's game at the end? Yeah, absolutely. Watching, you
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: I've been fortunate enough to do the, the, the BBC coverage, so I've been pitch side at the end and you, you like the atmosphere in the ground, like a,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: after the game's finished, half an hour, an hour. There's still thousands of fans in there. And,
Carl: Brilliant.
simon middleton: you know, and, and it, it's, it's almost like for so many of the fans, the end part is the best part of the experience. 'cause they
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: get to see [00:31:00] their fans. Uh, their, their, they're heroes. They
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: if they hang around, they're gonna get autographs, they're gonna get pictures, they're gonna get Berner in TikTok videos. Uh, they're just gonna get great engagement,
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: and I watched the reaction of my daughter, uh, when stuff like that's going on and it, it says everything, you know, she's
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: watching them and, uh, I totally understand it.
Carl: I think that also helps as well. 'cause a lot of the women's game have also. They, you've sort of created that cult following within your, your own club, whereas men's rugby, there's, there you don't, you're not always allegiance to one club. You just love rugby and, and obviously you get allegiance to your, your national side, but then club rugby, so sparsely spread across in the premiership.
It's like, I live, I originally from Portsmouth, so closest one is Quinns and I only sort of follow Quinns because I, that was my first rugby game I went to 'cause of when I went with, with mates and stuff. But [00:32:00] there's a lot of people around the country that have gonna be growing up without a rugby club in there, in that region or can't reach it.
So obviously Worcester coming back obviously is a, is is a big positive to that area as well. And then you've got obviously wasps disappeared wherever they come back. London Irish again is probably another close. There's so it's so widely spread within the men's game. Whereas the women's game sort of is a bit of a wider net within the, the club rugby.
So it's able to absorb a few more fans and then they, oh, they, they play for Scotland. Well, they also play for my club. So when I, when I go to that game, I wanna still talk to 'em,
simon middleton: yeah,
Carl: whether it was England or Scotland, like, do you know what I mean? I think that's, that's what helps that game grow within that, because you create the cult following within your club and then it doesn't concern the fans as much, whether they're English, Scottish, Welsh, south African,
simon middleton: yeah.
Carl: part of their club.
And,
simon middleton: to 'em. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Carl: I think [00:33:00] that's a brilliant way for them to be able to grow that game continually as well.
simon middleton: Yeah.
Carl: Buster, one of the other lads that's part of the pod, he, uh, he drops a message as well, and he, he goes, you might not wanna hang your hat on this yet, but who is the, who is the most naturally gifted player?
That you c, you whoever got the chance to work with he, he highlighted female. But obviously there's whe whether we do both or whether you're not willing to hang your hat on one person at all or,
simon middleton: Oh, I, I would, so from a female point of view, there's probably two Meg, Meg Jones and Ellie Kildunne, and, and I was, I was fortunate being involved in the into the, the England set, certainly into the e, into the, the seniors. I went to watch Meg, uh, when she was 16, and I went and, and I actually stumbled across Ellie when my daughter was playing in the final for
Carl: Oh really?
simon middleton: and, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Ellie was
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: West Park [00:34:00] and there were 50, there were, it was the under fifteens Yorkshire Cup final.
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: pitch side Castlefield got a really good side at this point. And they're, they're, they're giving it to, to West Park. And there's one kid who is. Making breaks, scoring tries, making great options with a ball, and has an unbelievable kicking game both out of, and, and off the tee.
She's kicking
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: touch line. I, and I'm like, I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like this since Meg Jones, since
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Jones. So I just, there was an RDO there, development officer. I just went who's, who's the girl playing 13. She said, oh, her name's Ellie Kildunne. So I put her name into my phone and then when I got by phone, the under twenties, they're, they're the under eighteens coach.
And I was like, Ellie Kildunne, you know? Yeah. Yeah. She's in the pathway. She's under under 15. I'm like, mate, I want her into the senior camp as
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: possible. And, uh. Yeah. So women's game, Ellie and, and Meg. Absolute standouts, natural players. So [00:35:00] good. So good. Well, you're asking me to look back now in the, in the, I like Jonathan Davis was unbelievable as a player.
He, because he was not just a rugby union superstar. He was a, he was a, a rugby league superstar as well, and ai, he had a great heart there. There wasn't much he couldn't do.
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: so he, he was one that jumps out at me as being, you know, uh, someone who, who could do everything. You know, there were so many good players around that.
I mean, like you, Jason Robinsons your Martin Offiahs, but they had specific traits,
Carl: yeah, yeah.
simon middleton: as an all round great rugby
Carl: play. Yeah.
simon middleton: Davis was brilliant.
Carl: So I'm gonna throw an extra curve ball on that then. Who's the most naturally gifted coach you've ever come across? Apart from yourself, obviously.
simon middleton: Darryl Powell.
Carl: Really
simon middleton: Yeah.
Carl: was able to just bring everyone together, do everything. That was wow.
simon middleton: uh, yeah, he was, he came outta rugby [00:36:00] league, so he, he brought the golden generation through uh, at leed. So Rob,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: uh, bless him, uh, Kev Sinfield, Danny McGuire, all that generation that came through, came through DA's Academy at
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: And, and things didn't, for whatever reason, things didn't work out for him at Leeds.
And he had an option to leave or an option to, to come in to do some work with Rugby Union with us. Uh, and, and Phil, you know, Phil was always a visionary and he was like, come in and work. We, us does. And Paley came in and within a played rugby union. And within a year. would, he'd sort of taken on the head coaching role and we, we absolutely belted Cardiff nil.
I think it was. We were a good side at the time in the Heineken
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: stages. And
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: purely off the back of the work d had done. And then he left and he went to Featherston rovers and he turned, uh, there were championship side, but like they, they won the championship [00:37:00] like four or five times. And then he went to Castleford, you know, very dear to my heart.
Really
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: for a load of years. Gone to the Grand Final, got him to Wembley, won the minor
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: Uh, the one place that didn't work out for him was obviously Warrington. Uh, he's at Wakefield doing the sort of stuff that he did at, at, at Cass and watching him work, the detail that he worked with on the basis, but also his relationship with players, how he, I think it's 'cause he, he could see the game so clearly, just
Carl: Right. Yeah.
simon middleton: so he could watch a game and then he could sit down and probably go through the. The game with every player and give them an account of their game and how he saw it and, and get the best out. And, and players who've worked under him absolutely love him
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: such a great relationship. Or certainly, you know, uh, certainly the ones I knew.
So I, I, I, you know, I was fortunate enough to, I played against him when he was at, uh, at Sheffield and Leeds when I was at Cass. Uh, and then I was fortunate enough [00:38:00] to, to, to work with him, uh, for a couple of years at Leeds. And it was a real education.
Carl: Well, so yeah, he sounds like, sounds like he's done a done a number on a few, few people's careers. Um, obviously we keep the abiline in between the two codes here. So obviously the league and, and union and Adam's, one of the other get, uh, hosts on, on rugby through the leagues. He's actually asked what was the driving force between you changing from League to Union?
Was it because you loved Union, but, but better at playing League or was it, how did, how did that sort of come across?
simon middleton: For, so it, again, I, I've ne I've never had a, I've never had a, a career path. I've never thought I'm gonna do this. This is my goal, this is where I want to get to next.
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: I've always had an inner belief that something was gonna happen. I was gonna do something a bit different, uh, from, from what I've been doing.
But like everybody, left school at 16, went straight into a factory, worked in a factory. I played [00:39:00] at noting Lee, um, a local club. I was absolutely terrible at school playing rugby. BI had nothing about me at all. Biggin. I had a big ginger perm and I was pale and I weighed nine stone and I, and they were like, oh, sir, I, I was, Middleton got to be on our side. Yeah, I'll put him on the wing. Okay. Put him on the wing. I couldn't, I had no pace about me or anything. I had nothing going for me as a rugby player. And I, and it
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: bad experience at school for me playing wise. But then I went to watch my brother play at Tingly when I'd left school and it was just the atmosphere around the
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: It was just gripped me and I absolutely fell in love with it. And I went back in. Some of my mates from school, my better mates were, were playing there. And I joined the academy, uh, or the col side as it was there. And the first trip without to, we had to go to Bridlington. And then on the way back, we stopped at Pub and the coach who was there was like, come out la.
See, we go, we'll have a pint. I was 17 years old. I'm thinking, this is unbelievable. Like, I'm like in a pub at 17, I'm in a beer with my mates. This is life.
Carl: [00:40:00] Yeah.
simon middleton: and, and I stayed. I stayed at night and by the time I was 18, I was first team captain.
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: just, what I, what what I actually discovered. I had unbelievable pace even though I was sober myself.
It's the only thing I had. But I had, I had where it came from, I have no idea,
Carl: Yeah, yeah,
simon middleton: I had unbelievable desire to be the best I could. So I, I'm like, I will be the best trainer in
Carl: yeah. Brilliant.
simon middleton: everywhere I've gone, I was like, I will be the best trainer. I love training the gym. I love training on the field because I knew without that. I was just another player.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and I, and, and I played at Knottingley till I was around 24. And there was lots, it, it was, it was really like eight divisions below, you know, it was, it was just social rugby,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: going all right. And there was a lot of noise about, oh, you're gonna go to the, one of the bigger clubs.
So at the time, Wakefield were a big club, uh, sandal were a big club. It's, it's local teams for was like that. And uh, and there was a guy called Dave Scully who was a [00:41:00] Scrumhalf for Wakefield and Castleford Rugby League had been chasing him for a long time, but he was a fireman. So he lived his fireman career and whatnot. And there was an invitational game where Castleford had, had Castleford, Ruby Union, who were just a junior side, had put some
Carl: Right.
simon middleton: up and they wanted to open these floodlights up, with a game. Yorkshire got to the final. Of a, of a final. So they needed a warm book game. So basically they set this game up at Yorkshire, uh, uh, Castleford with Yorkshire versus an invitational site. So they brought in the guy who was in charge, put four or five of the Castleford players in, but then brought in a load of ringers who weren't playing for Yorkshire anymore because they needed a good hit out. And he
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: me. He said, do you fancy having a run out, a fullback? I was like, yeah, absolutely.
So I'm, I'm playing with a coup couple of Yorkshire lads who I've been watching for years. Dave Scully was one of them. scrum half Brian
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: who was a fantastic player. A couple runs for England. Uh, and the Castleford coaching staff came along to watch Dave Sculley [00:42:00] I had the best game you could ever have in
Carl: Really?
simon middleton: Like, and, and a week later I got a phone call and it was a Wednesday night. I remember it's like, oh, hi mate. Darryl Vanderbilt here from Castleford. And I'm like thinking, oh shit,
Carl: Yeah. Yeah. 70, 77. What? Yeah. Somebody, somebody's having goodbye. Yeah.
simon middleton: having me on. And he had this conversation. He's like, Hey, and watch you last week, da da da da. Uh, fancy coming down and having some trials with us, and I'm like, yeah, I'd absolutely loved her. He said, right
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: at Castleford, seven o'clock we're training. and I, I got off the phone. Fortunately, I knew Graham Steadman, who was with Castleford really well, Graham was a bit of a superstar player at the time,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: lad.
And I phoned him up. I'm like, it's steady. I've just done that. He said, yeah, mate, he's Ds really impressed with you. I'm like, I, and I went down and that's, that's the break, that's the lucky
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: get, and then you just make the most of it.
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: at CAS there, as I say, six, seven years. But I always had a massive, [00:43:00] I had a yearning to go back to rugby Union because I loved it so much.
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: Uh, and yeah, I was coming to the end of my career, my league career, and, uh, I thought, what am I gonna do next? And, uh, I. Yeah, I'd been injured for about six months, one season, and I got fit just as the season finished.
And I just said to, to the coach, it was called John the la get in charge, John Joiner at the time. And I just, can I, can I go play some will union rather than do a pre-season again?
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: I think at that time they would turn off load me and he was like, yeah mate, course you can get
Carl: Say it like that.
simon middleton: And I went, I went to Ottley Rugby Union Club and it was like winding the clock back,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: club, clubhouse packed, everybody having a big beer after the game.
I just, just loved it. Again, the rugby union part of it, loved it. And then one of the teams I played against was Leeds and Phil Davis phone me up and he is like, mate, are you finishing and we rugby league, we'd be interested in having you here. I actually went back, played another year at ca, [00:44:00] actually played all right, to be honest, last year. And then I, and then I went to Leeds and like, and that's how it all happened and I.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: There's, it's just a great game. Rugby's just a great game. And I've loved, I loved League because it was so tough and,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: it was such a challenge. And I loved Union because it was just brilliant to play. Uh, Long story, long, sorry.
Carl: no, not at all. No. 'cause the, the what I, what I get the sensory music. You just love rugby. Doesn't matter what code it is, it's just you. You just want to be part of rugby. And I think a lot of us are like, obviously being down south, I don't quite understand the league. I. Side of it. I don't, don't get it.
But obviously there, there's a lot of, a lot of top coaches now that have transitioned between the two. So they've obviously been part of league and part of Union, obviously the, the, the like the Farrells and obviously Fordy and stuff like that. How, what do you think makes them stand out [00:45:00] from the rest of potentially those union specialists?
What makes, what, 'cause, like Kev Sinfields come in and worked wonders for the England men's as well and stuff like that, and there's a lot of coaches that are leaning on ex League players.
simon middleton: Yeah.
Carl: what do you think adds that element to make them so good? Within the union game?
simon middleton: I think, and I, I say this with the very greatest of respects because Rugbys like anything in life, it needs, it needs a bit of everything.
Carl: Mm-hmm.
simon middleton: those players you just talked about there, they're, they're, they're tough. They're tough players. They're from the north. They're from a game that you had to fight every inch for, and you had to understand, so their knowledge of rugby, of skill, and of what it takes play right at the top. Because although, like for instance, GB Rugby League never had the profile of England Rugby Union.
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: the level back in the nineties, the level of [00:46:00] rugby league player was so far in advance of rugby union's best players,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: because, because been professional for 10, 15 years, but also because of the nature of the people who played it.
But you, if you think back to where, you know, we can put aside into the Middlesex Sevens never played rugby union before, off the back of a week's training. They win it. It's because they're great athletes and they're
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and they've got a great skill set and they've got rule adaptability. They could, they, they could think rugby and see
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: And I think that's been what the secret of success for people like Fordy. And for like Faz and for Sean Edwards, you know, they are
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: uncompromising people, but they're from really grounded backgrounds where your, your ethic on everything you do is built on work.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: And honesty and being able to commit yourself to do something the best you can be. Uh, and as I say, I'm not saying that doesn't come out of [00:47:00] the south or the middles midlands or whatever, but I think there's a, there, people offer different things and to be the very top and stay at the very top, in sport, you have to have a great work ethic. And you, you have to mentally and physically tough.
And they're
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: and physically very tough people. They're, you look at 'em now, they, they're, they're people who are still in great shape
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you are a very. Are very clear about their philosophies and their goals, uh, and what's important to them. And, and I think li life in the north is, is pretty simple or certainly
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: pretty simple, you know, back in the nineties and two thousands.
And, and they bring the rugby's built on basics,
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: uh, execution of basics, and, and that's what they brought, that's what they brought.
Carl: I think you hit the nail on the head as well as uncompromising. There's there a a lot in the current generation. I'm probably, I'm gonna get [00:48:00] chased off with a stake here, but there, there is a lot, there's a lot of. There's a lot of adaptability, should we probably put it, that people are not willing to, they don't feel that they have to put a hundred percent in because something's awarded to them.
Whereas there is the, the uncompromising set yourself standards and then everyone else will either buy into it or you, you don't need to give them time. In my opinion. That's, that's how I feel like I set my own standards and come along with it and it, or if you don't wanna buy into it, that's fine, but that's, that's you uncompromising is, is probably the, the way that a lot of people get to the top and that's the difference between certain, certain players that are probably not fulfilled their potential as well.
And there's probably coaches out there that have, that have got every attribute to be the best at what they could be, but they potentially lack that.
simon middleton: Yeah,
Carl: Uncompromisable bit and
simon middleton: Yeah.
Carl: a a, as you [00:49:00] say, rugby leagues just very hard. Do you think because they, there isn't the amount of stoppages, like, because there's not the amount of time wasted with a ball out of play in, in league.
You don't have the time to stand back and think. You've gotta literally think because somebody else is gonna be charging at you within about two seconds.
simon middleton: just, it's just a tough game.
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: rugby Union is a tough game. Don't get wrong.
Carl: yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. We know. Yeah.
simon middleton: the athletes in Rugby Union and the way it's played, the physicality now is incredible.
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: you think about ball in play, rugby Union, you're probably talking about 45, 50%, 55% on a, on a really good day.
Rugby, rugby league, you're talking like 65, 70%,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Uh, so
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: it's, it's physically, it's unbelievably demanding. It is rugby league and you've gotta be, as I say, incredibly tough to play it. Uh, and you've gotta be incredibly skillful to play it
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: than anything. You've gotta be tough, you've gotta be tough.
Uh. [00:50:00] Resilient. Robust, uh, and you've gotta have a real good ethic work, work ethic about you. And like I say, the sim, you know, we're, I'm trying not to categor, I'm being really carefully not to categorize
Carl: it's not it. Let's get it.
simon middleton: mate, we're a simple breed up here in the north,
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: am.
Like, I, I know what works for me.
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: I don't need to overcomplicate things. And, uh, and, and that's, as I say, that's, that's rugby, isn't it? That's
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: I mean, we try to complicate as much as we can. You know, rugby league is a very
Carl: I,
simon middleton: sport,
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: played by very tough people. Uh, and, and, and I think a lot of, a lot of the really great players and skills gone outta rugby league and it's more physical now than it probably ever was, but it, it, it lacks, it certainly lacks characters and. Characters with skill sets that it had through the nineties and the two thousands. [00:51:00] You know, I, I think you've probably got a little bit more of that in Union now. Uh, why that is, I'm not quite sure, but, you know, I
Carl: Do you think that's because some of those coaches have come across those coaches that were around in that, in, in the nineties and the, the two, and they've, they've brought that element across to Union because they've, I.
simon middleton: I, I, I honestly don't know. I, I, I've, maybe it's because the, the conditioning part to Play League has become So scientific and the athletes are very much the same, in terms of their physical capacities. So the game, generally, games are driven by different types of people, which is the beauty of rugby Union.
You have your big front rowers who
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: they're built for purpose and you have your second rows of built for purpose, and then you've got your outside backs and you, you look across the, uh, a lineup of an international side singing an anthem, and it looks [00:52:00] very different. You look
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: league side, it's, there's some big guys in there, but generally they're all pretty great athletes.
Apart from your,
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: that were great athletes, but smaller. So the, the game, it's, it can afford to become one dinette dimensional almost because it's, and then it's just about winning the physical battle, but winning the
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: and collisions. Uh, whereas union's not like that. It's very, I.
It's very technical. Uh, he has so many different facets to it. So I just think the players who used to be so exceptional, who could open defenses up and do different things, uh, they don't need to be like that anymore. Maybe it's how it's coached. So it's, you know, players don't express themselves anymore in training and, and don't practice the things that they would deliver on a match day.
You know, I, my, my captain at Castleford were a guy called Lee Crooks who was, uh, he was a put forward, oh, one of the most skillful players you can imagine. He had a, you know, he would play through the [00:53:00] line and there'd be an offload there every time available.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you know, and, and he could kick goals and he could kick out hand. And, uh, not sure there's many front rows of doing that at the moment in rugby
Carl: Ah, there's loads, there's load. Uh, it's all props are the best players around anyway, so,
simon middleton: Well, they're earned the most money for the right reasons.
Carl: uh,
simon middleton: But
Carl: brilliant.
simon middleton: about England England's team at the moment, England women's team, you know, you look
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: they're unbelievable. Sarah
Carl: Uh,
simon middleton: Botterman, you know, Maude Muir, uh, you know, Kelsey Clifford just come on the scene and really, you know, she's, they, they, they're so skillful and so powerful.
Uh,
Carl: somebody was saying the other day, like, if you looked back a couple of years and you saw Sarah Berns name on the sub bench, people would be having a heart attack. And now we've got players that are obviously of that level and above, and then you've also got Sarah Bern that can come on and just turn a game and it just, and [00:54:00] it's a, it's a, it's a true testament to how that the, the, the tee, the players have developed as well.
And obviously they've got, now they've got idols to aspire to and they wanna put themselves above that, which is, which is really good. Obviously. While, while we're here, I think we're probably gonna have to talk about that World Cup final obviously in 2022.
simon middleton: Yeah.
Carl: How did, obviously I. Everyone watching probably thought it was a done deal.
How did, how did it, how did it all feel when you were in the game? Did you think It's always, it's always at, it is always at jeopardy. Like every game is until the
simon middleton: Oh yeah. We,
Carl: but
simon middleton: Like we, when we went out there, you know, the, the, the, the, the press were, were like, it's a foregone conclusion, isn't it? It's yours to
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: I said, well, it's not ours to lose, because actually New Zealand are the champions at the moment. They've got it.
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: for the start, that's not, that's not correct, but we, we'd played the black Ferns twice the year [00:55:00] before.
They'd just come outta Covid. We trained all the way through Covid.
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: horrendous. But we trained all the way through Covid. We were, we played and we put 50 on 'em twice, then they went to France and got 50 on them, or 40 on 'em twice. But like, you looked at that and you're thinking that's probably the worst thing that could have happened because that
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: instigated there.
You knew for a fact that a, a year of being back together and they would be an outstanding side, let alone the fact
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: they, they then brought in Graham Henry and Wayne Smith and Mike Ron, you know, they basically brought the New Zealand men's team,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and coaching staff in from the World Cup. Uh, brilliant move by them to be
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Uh. So, so we knew what were coming and uh, but every game in the World Cup is like, it, it's, it's everybody's World Cup. What you gotta remember, it's everybody's World Cup. It's not just your World Cup. So
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: ready. And, you know, we, we knew it was gonna be tough and, you know, we, like, played Canada.
I mean, to be fair, the two teams in the final probably shouldn't have been in the final, you know, [00:56:00] France missed a kick
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: of the game to put new, put the black ferns out,
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: in front of the sticks, basically, you know, Canada kicked us around the field and, and, and, and, but for the best I have ever seen scored on a rugby field, we probably would've been playing in the third, fourth playoff as well.
You
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: you know, we, we, we, we made it into the final. So we were like, we knew it was gonna be tough, but the Canada game was actually the shot in the arm that we needed to, to take a little bit of pressure off us in a way, going into the final. But
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: could have legislated for, for what happened.
And, uh. And, and what we had, we, we'd o over the course of a couple of years, took probably three years, we changed our training philosophy and we'd become a really tough side physically on the field. We were really well conditioned, we were very physical, very robust. We hardly had any injuries. And then we went into the World Cup and like we lost Hannah Botterman in the pool stages.
She was out of the tournament. Uh, we lost Helena [00:57:00] Rowland in the semi-final against Canada. Leanne Riley, uh, there, there was a starting scrum half pulled out on the morning of the game. Uh, so we, we, we suddenly had these setbacks. Now we had a, we had a good enough squad. There was no
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: we still had a good enough squad. Uh, but then, you know, lid lids picks up the, the, the red card after 17 minutes or 14 minutes, whatever it was. But then
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: minutes later, Zoe Allcroft went off with concussion. And that,
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: the biggest moment. That was,
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: impactful than sending off because that changed. Our super strength that descaled our super strength.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: because of the Lineout on what she brings, but because of what she brings around the field. So we knew at that point and then they scored immediately, off the, off the penalty. And it's
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: seven and then it's like, right, what do you know? leave the, do we leave the pack at eight, go for the jugular or do we take take one player [00:58:00] off and put an extra back on and try and negate their strengths, their
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: which was unquestionably their backs. And we've been really positive minded all the way through the tournament. And I was like, alright, let's just go for the ju let's keep the pack together. And the thing was is Matt, well the player who would've had to come off would've been Sarah Hunter. You don't take your fi, you're Captain off after
Carl: No,
simon middleton: of a World Cup final.
Carl: no.
simon middleton: I had to do it at half time. But you know, Sarah. so much, and especially her leadership, but when you're down to 14 and you're playing against the team who want to move the ball all over the field, you've gotta get, you've gotta get as much mobility on the field as possible.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you know, and that wasn't set Sarah's strength at that particular point, and I think she got done on the edge on one player and that sort of convinced me. Uh, you know, we've gotta, we've gotta make a change at half time. But we stuck with the, the eight eight forward philosophy, you know, and we, and we, you know, we matched them and we took
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: and it worked in terms of the ties we [00:59:00] scored, you know, we played to our strengths, we scored tries and they played to their stem and scored tries, you know, and if anybody would've offered you that scenario with the last play of the game before we even kicked the ball, we would've taken it.
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: Uh, you know, a big moment and, you know, and big pressure moment, could there be a bigger pressure moment for any player in their life are the caller. are the thrower in particular. Well, on the lifters and everybody who goes into it, you know
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you know, you get this right. We're world champions.
You get it wrong. We're not world champions. And the whole world changes after that, uh, on what happens. And, you know, we at sport in it, you know, they, they, they made their play and you know, they, they went up at the front. And we probably, uh, you know, I think with Zoe on the field, we would've, we would've looked at different options.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: hey, ho.
Carl: That's, uh, as you say, that's, that is, that's what makes a difference probably [01:00:00] between them this season as well. Poten. Do you, do you think that's obviously a, a lot, lot of it's playing into their, their set up ready to make sure that they don't let the same thing happen on home turf?
simon middleton: that's what you do, don't you? You, you, you
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: You learn and, and, and adapt. And, you know, we, we, we learned it in 2017. We, you know, when we lost the World Cup in 2017, we, there were two or three positions. We were really short and we couldn't cover. So we were like, have to grow depth in certain areas. And second row was one, uh, we had, you know, and, and people who could call the line out and stuff like that. But it's, you know, the, the women's game's moving a unbelievable pace, but it still
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: amount of time to deliver to, to. To, uh, evolve athletes, evolve callers, evolve strategic players, things like that.
And they've, you know, John Mitchell's talked about it all the way through the Six Nations. He, you know, he wants effectively two sides. He wants to be able to play plan A,
Carl: [01:01:00] Yeah.
simon middleton: Uh, and that's just learning from, you know, he, he, he's obviously looked at 2000 and and 22, and I can clearly see what we could have done better there to negate that or to make sure that doesn't happen again.
And hopefully they do.
Carl: Do you think? Go on. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you on the spot here. If Covid hadn't come and you played it in 2021, do you think you'd the, the result would've been different
simon middleton: Yeah. I don't think we've even got to the final.
Carl: really?
simon middleton: Yeah, yeah,
Carl: So you've
simon middleton: It was
Carl: actually probably worked better for you
simon middleton: it
Carl: potentially.
simon middleton: it unquestionably work better for us. Yeah. Yeah.
Carl: so what, what, what adds what, what, what do you think was missing then if you played it in 2021?
simon middleton: Because, and again, and I say this with the greatest of respect because the, the, we had in 2021, we lost Luke Woodhouse, who was a strengthening conditioner. And Richard Blaise, who was our forwards coach, Wasps, came in and took him
Carl: [01:02:00] Right.
simon middleton: the World Cup if the World Cup had been played in 2021. And the lioness come in and took our, our, psychologist Kate Hays, who's the best psychologist I've ever worked with by a mile.
Carl: Really?
simon middleton: and, and so we, it left us short in certain areas. So we recruited, uh, recruited another, another strength and conditioner who actually a massive, uh, guy called Alex Meyer, who was brilliant as he
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: come from Leicester Tigers. And he, he revolutionized how we trained. You know, we had a, I had an idea about stuff.
I think if that's. I think it might have been a little bit earlier than six months before, maybe 10 months before we, we, we were able to change what we did. So from that point of view, we actually, we, we probably benefited a little bit, but we couldn't replace Blazey like for like. There was no one available.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: but we took a great, a really great coach, a guy [01:03:00] called, uh, mark Ruffman, who was I played with, with Mark at, at Leeds. And, uh, he was, uh, he was, he was a really tough player at Leeds and he, he coached the academy at Leeds and then he coached, uh, grade at England. And, uh, he'd gone for the under, he'd gone for the under twenties job and he got down to the last two and he hadn't got it. Uh, I think Andy Tirol got it. And, uh. we were trying to recruit and there was just nobody available even in the same category as Blazey. And prior to Blazey, we'd had Matt Ferguson. So I knew what level of coach I wanted, and our forwards, knew what level of coach they wanted and what level of coach they needed.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Mark's a really good coach, but he'd never worked at the level those guys had worked at. And he'd been in development almost all his career, coaching career. And there is a huge difference between development, coaching and pathway and, and, and [01:04:00] performance coaching. And,
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: and, and, and I knew it wasn't the right call, but it was probably our only call. And Mark came in and did he, he did a, a great job with the girls in terms of how hard he worked and what he did. But the players, the, the players were onto it like that. Yeah. And you, you know, as a forward, how important your
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: is to like, that relationship is just, it's gold, dust, it's,
Carl: yeah, yeah,
simon middleton: foundation of your performance as a pack and probably
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: and, and, and it, they just didn't connect. The two
Carl: Right.
simon middleton: them, didn't align and the, and the pack, just like the performance really, you know, we got in, we really sort of, and I say I, I, I don't want this to sound, uh, sort of negative on Mark because he was doing, he was doing a great job, but I think the mentality of the players was the biggest thing.
Carl: [01:05:00] Right.
simon middleton: and we just, we slid backwards as a pack and I was like, if we go to the World Cup downward trajectory, there's only gonna be one outcome.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: looking to get to the final. And certainly how the calendar game rolled out. In the semifinal in 2022, if we'd have met that in 2021, we wouldn't have got past that.
We would not have
Carl: Right.
simon middleton: that. And, uh, which is why I say that, so when, when Nikki Ponsford, who was at of performance, we were, we were trained at Penn Hill Park, and she, and she, she called me off the pitch right at the end of the session straight away. She called me off the pitch I was like, oh, something serious has happened here.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: she, she, I want to have a chat da, she said, world Cup's been canceled of Covid. And I thought, thank God.
Carl: Sorry.
simon middleton: And she, and she was like, it's a disaster, this, that. And I'm thinking, uh,
Carl: No, no.
simon middleton: it's not. And, and I, and you know, and we got the players in, and the players were pretty [01:06:00] devastated because
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: they were gearing themselves up. But I think there's a few of the smarter ones went. Right. Okay. And I, I looked at Sarah and, and I looked at, you know, a couple of 'em, and I was like, this is all right. is another year. It's hard. We know when we wanted to, you know, we were looking forward to it, but seen what had happened and they knew where we were.
But I was like, right we can go through a recruitment process. We started to come outta Covid a little bit, we
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: a recruitment process and, uh, Lewis Deacon's name up and, uh,
Carl: Perfect fit.
simon middleton: and as, as soon as Dekes was in the pack, because they, they had a coach who played premiership at the very top played with England at the very top.
I was coaching just cutting his teeth, but he was so smart, so
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and the, and then they were like, they were up again and within six weeks they were the best pack in the world by a mile again. Uh, [01:07:00] and, and, and that's, isn't it? How fickle can be, but that's,
Carl: But as, as we
simon middleton: in the room.
Carl: exactly as we said earlier, you, you, you recruit the right people around, it makes your job even easier. 'cause uh, they're doing the bits that you don't know. So you've gotta bring the, the best in. Um, so obviously you've, you've stepped, stepped away from the, the England setup. What's, what's your, the next plans or is it you, you sort of enjoying the commentating stuff?
Or is have you got your eye on a, another role or?
simon middleton: Well, I'm, I'm working with World Rugby, uh, as a, as a performance consultant. So
Carl: I.
simon middleton: when, when I came out of, uh. When I came out out of the World Cup before, went into the World Cup. So my, my, my old boss, Nicky Ponsford, uh, moved to World Rugby a couple of years before the World Cup and, and has become like, she's fantastic.
Nicky a brilliant person to work for really smart, but, and I spoke to her in the World Cup and she was like, what, what? And we were just having a beer and she was like, what's your plan after [01:08:00] World Cup? And I'm like, I dunno. But think,
Carl: think the time's done. Yeah.
simon middleton: Yeah. I I've had enough of them and they've had enough of me, you know, we've had a great relationship, but it's just time to move on.
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: so the, the scene was sort of set and I'm, and I'm why, what you think? He said, well, look, there'll always be a big shake up after the World Cup. There always is. Uh, I'm like, I'm not, should. I'll go straight back into another coaching role,
Carl: No.
simon middleton: head coach, you know, and, and I want to take a bit of time out.
Uh, and she, she said, well, we, there's, there's head coaching roles and then there's consultant roles where we just parachute people in and you just do, and I'm like, brilliant. That
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: I would love to have a crack at. she said, well, look, we're talking emerging nations here. We're not talking. I'm like, brilliant. Let's get back to grassroots. Let's get back to the, the other end of the spectrum. Uh, and, and there was three or four teams that needed support and one of them was Japan and I'd met
Carl: Oh, okay.
simon middleton: Leslie McKenzie. and this, this is all the women's game. And
Carl: Yeah,[01:09:00] 
simon middleton: McKenzie, uh, coach at a conference at World, rugby conference.
Really impressed with her. Uh, really smart person, really good coach, going well with her. She actually phoned me up and she said, look, I, I'm trying to generate some, some, some support into the
Carl: Yep.
simon middleton: You fancy it. And, uh, I was chatting to World Rugby at the time, so everything sort of aligned and. And I went and did basically a third of a year on and off, working with Japan the first year.
Carl: Yep.
simon middleton: and then off the back of that I did a little bit with, with Kazakhstan, and then I did a little bit of work with Netherlands. Uh, I set my own business up. Uh, so I was doing some keynote stuff. I was doing some
Carl: Nice.
simon middleton: and unis just speaking about performance. Did a little bit of after dinner stuff, just
Carl: Yeah, yeah,
simon middleton: and in between just being at home,
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: re, I don't wanna say reconnected them in the family 'cause we're really close, but just being around a little bit more for,
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: kids and being, being that support if they needed it.
But, you know, they're, like I say, they're in the twenties and they're,[01:10:00] 
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: doing their
Carl: We got it.
simon middleton: But, but, so I was like, yeah, well I'm, this is, I'm enjoying this.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: learning. I, I've wanted a different challenge. Go to Japan. That's a different challenge.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: I got off, I got off the plane in Tokyo in August, and I've never experienced heat like it in my life.
Heat and humidity. Oh my God. And,
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: Leslie's great for taking the mickey out of you and keeping you, keeping you grounded. And I had this huge, I didn't know what bag to take. I had this huge GB bag that I'd got when I went Rio, and I had it full with gear and I'm dragging around and she says, she says, no wonder you're sweating, dragging that body bag around with you everywhere you go. And, uh, and that and that. anyway, I, so I've had two years doing, uh, working with a lot of teams in Asia.
Carl: Wow. Okay.
simon middleton: and, and it's been great. And then, then the, and the fans are doing the puny stuff, but I didn't think that was gonna happen. 'cause I think that's maybe a particular type of [01:11:00] commentator they're going for in the women's game, which I'm fine.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: got a call from BBC and they were like, your fans are coming, doing the six stations. And I was like, yeah, absolutely.
Carl: Yeah. Quality.
simon middleton: I'm loving it, you know, and, and, and
Carl: Brilliant.
simon middleton: all of a sudden you're working with. Sonny Cleland and, and, and Gabby Logan, who were just unbelievable at their jobs.
Carl: Yeah. Yeah.
simon middleton: a real pleasure and yeah.
Loving it.
Carl: No. Brilliant. Obviously you, you mentioned Kazakhstan there, so they've actually recently got, they've had a game against Georgia or they've got a game coming up. So Georgia have finally delved into women's rugby. Um, obviously I'm a big advocate for rugby, rugby Europe. Um, as you have probably seen and aware that have gone to a lot of the Spain stuff, cover a lot of the Spain women's as well.
Georgia's entry into women's rugby is potentially what a lot of people say. That's why they shouldn't be allowed near the six nations, et cetera. How has Kazakhstan for, uh, for a women's rugby, 'cause Georgia's obviously got a bit of a natural [01:12:00] rugby talent and progression in the men's setup. Kazakhstan, probably not so much.
Shall we,
simon middleton: Well,
Carl: we say?
simon middleton: go, going back probably 10 years, Kazakhstan, were Asian champions on a regular basis in the women's
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and
Carl: okay.
simon middleton: the World Cup.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: things have, have, have declined for one reason or another. They've declined in in Kazakhstan for, from a women's rugby point of view. I think also Japan of accelerated, massively
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: Uh, they are, they are a good side who play Spain in the World Cup. They, in Spain's, Spain's pool, uh, Hong Kong are moving a rapid rate of knots
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Both, both programs have drawbacks in terms of the, the literally the, the players, the pool of players, the size of players.
Carl: Right,
simon middleton: there's gotta be specific things that you have to really focus on in those programs around athleticism, around technical out excellence, things like that. Uh, but anyway, digress a little bit, but [01:13:00] when I went to. The, the first gig I did with Japan was the Asian Championships in Kazakhstan, which was a fantastic place. What a great
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: going to Kazakhstan. Now, Kazakhstan were very physical, but they got beat very heavily by Japan.
Carl: Right.
simon middleton: and they got beat by Hong Kong in a close game. And then the year after, when I did work with Kazakhstan, I met them in Hong Kong for the Asian Championships. And they were just
Carl: Okay.
simon middleton: resourced. They, you
Carl: Really?
simon middleton: of players, but they had, they had like four members of staff and, you know, and they
Carl: Wow.
simon middleton: doing their very best, you know, but you like the, the guy who's the forward coach is all so the strength and conditioner and is, is doing the, the physio piece.
And he is helping manage the team. And, uh, so I'm a little bit like, I'm, I'm not sure where they've gone from there, but, uh, they, they, they, they've definitely, from where they were, they, they've definitely fallen away. And whether they can come back or not remains to be seen.
Carl: Yeah, so obviously Georgia [01:14:00] have got a game against them, or they've got one, they've played one or they're, they're about to play, they're, they've got a back-to-back game against them. So,
simon middleton: I'll be interesting. Yeah.
Carl: yeah. So Georgia's delving into, into women's rugby, um, alongside obviously the likes of Spain, Portugal, there, there's obviously massive noise around Georgia within Rugby Europe, obviously winning it eight times on the bounce and stuff like that in the men's scene, and obviously getting into the, the six nations that people keep talking about.
But as we know, that's not gonna happen. Do you think. A Six Nations with the likes of Spain and Portugal to start with an extended women's version. Do you think that will help develop the game within rugby? Because Spain have won, again, another Rugby Europe championships. Obviously you've got Holland. Uh, the Netherlands have just done really well as well.
They've just, they've just finished second, they've just, they've just put 93 points [01:15:00] on, on Sweden at the weekend, I think.
simon middleton: All right.
Carl: So there's, there's two, potentially three teams that are clearly standing out within the Rugby Europe stuff. Do, do you think that Women's Six Nations is probably gonna be the one that's more adaptable than the men's
simon middleton: I,
Carl: to, to accept more?
simon middleton: I, I think it would, it would, have to be, I, I, I think, uh, six nations, the tradition and everything that goes with it, if you think how long it took to get Italy into it, you know, it's, it's, uh, what it is, is very well protected, I think in terms
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: the tradition of it and, and the dynamic of it. women's is different in terms of, you still have, obviously you still have that same feel to it in terms of the nations, but of the things they've, they're striving to overcome, I. Or find a solution to is the dominance of England. And that's, the biggest, that's the biggest [01:16:00] challenge for the Six
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: I, I think, do other teams come in underneath? I think there should always be possibility of looking at that. But what you've got in the Women's Six Nations now is you've got Wales full-time, Ireland
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Scotland, full-time, uh, Italy. Uh, obviously they've just changed their, their, their staff and I'm not quite sure what their, their search is like.
But you've got, you've got teams who are, uh, evolving
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: they need to evolve. So the ga the games, I'm a little bit surprised by some of the scores in some of the games. I think this, this weekend, that's just not the weekend. It's just gone. The won before. So Italy beats Scotland. Nobody saw that coming.
But
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: great for the competition
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: that if you have a bad day, you're gonna get beat.
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: sides are competent. So you look at that, but then you look at how island put whales away, uh, by 40 odd points, nearly 50 points, and you're thinking that's not great. But two years [01:17:00] ago, whales were like right up there and now they've got Sean Linen who will unquestionably do a great job with them and they, and they'll,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: be a resurgence in in Wales.
So I think that there's still a lot to play out in the
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Nations in terms of the teams that sit underneath England
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: tend to be getting closer to the others rather than close to England. We might find out differently this weekend, but I very much
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: Uh, you know, FRA France on 70 minutes, France is like two points in front of Italy and losing to Italy half time this week had just gone.
And that sort of
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: I think where France are at the moment, as well as probably how Italy have gone this week. Uh, so I think before they look at bringing other teams in, they need to let this. Let this play out and see how competitive it's gonna be. 'cause I think next year it'll be super competitive below England.
The, the biggest problem they've got is it's a foregone conclusion before a ball's kicked. And that's not England's fault. England are set in setting the pace and, [01:18:00] uh, they find a solution to that. I, I don't know,
Carl: How long do,
simon middleton: in
Carl: how do you, how long do you think that continues? How long do you think England's dominance continues before one of these other teams?
simon middleton: It ju it, it, it, depends on how much the other teams put into it depends whether they take the same approach England took, which was to surround the players with the best coaches, the best staff they can to give them the best resources they can give them to build a league that supports it. to now to really start developing a pathway that underpins everything. So, but that's not to say England have been just given everything they asked for. They haven't. It's,
Carl: No.
simon middleton: an evolution process over a 10 year period that has been well constructed. It's battled real challenges. So [01:19:00] as I say, the strides we made through Covid when everybody else packed up,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: but, but that took, that took an unbelievable amount of effort to make that work.
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: amount of resource to make it work and an un amount of commitment from people. But what, what they, what we did in Covid is now being reflected as part of what's happening with this England side. Why are they getting so, so much further away? Because they, they, they continue to develop and you see players coming through, like they kept the league running as much as they kept the international scene going
Carl: yeah,
simon middleton: You like it used to, the, the pecking order used to be Pathway, England under 2020s, England seniors. And there was a, there was a national academy in the middle that sort of picked up players who weren't quite ready or players that surfaced in
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: league. Now, now it is categorically pathway under twenties, PWR, which
Carl: [01:20:00] Yeah.
simon middleton: absolute breeding ground for young players, which is doing exactly what Nicky Ponsford set up to do, which is
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: for England. Uh, and then you're senior team and you've just got this conveyor belt of players who are
Carl: Brilliant.
simon middleton: starting to, and it's just starting. It's
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: It's not, it's not even near the potential that it could be. Uh, so, you know, the, I think that the biggest threat to England is the overall state of the game.
Not anybody who they, in any opposition, they're gonna play.
Carl: So I know obviously that there's probably not enough teams it for these other, other re uh, other countries to, to create their own league. Um, do you think sort of a women's URC would potentially work best for them to be able to develop and create that breeding ground? Like you've just sort of stated about the PWR.
simon middleton: well, they've got like the, and, and
Carl: They've got, they've got the Celtic Leagues and stuff like that. They've,
simon middleton: Leagues. Yeah.
Carl: got en en energy [01:21:00] energy leagues or something in, in Ireland. So they've got that. But you've gotta have the top level, wouldn't you? You've gotta be able to play at the top level to
simon middleton: Yeah,
Carl: top level players.
simon middleton: Yeah. Well, I mean, the, you know, the, those ideas get kicked around, you know, do they put a Welsh team into the PWR, do Scottish team into the PWR? Uh, or do, do they really put an emphasis on developing the Celtic leagues?
Carl: Mm.
simon middleton: So I think, I think there's a few things that, that they're kicking around at the moment. The, the, the key bit is people are very much aware of it, and there's a
Carl: Mm-hmm.
simon middleton: process going into it. know how, obviously because of the, the overall pool of players for each nation is not, is not massive. So
Carl: Right. Yeah.
simon middleton: you develop player pathway? How do you develop player from within? Uh, if they're spreading off everywhere and they're going into the PWR, so to, you need to look at the PWR and go, okay, listen. So it's
Carl: Is,
simon middleton: five
Carl: that bigger.
simon middleton: [01:22:00] Yeah.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: or like, say expand it or bring a league in underneath it
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you know, the, the, the is like the, the, the senior, the, the, A team league as such.
But think that, you know, they're kicking a lot of, a lot of ideas around now that, that look at the moment, but ultimately the engagement. And pathway stuff is gonna be critical to every nation because unless you're generating players to play, and unless you're developing those players in the right way, both, you know, physically, mentally, tactically, technically, then, uh, you know, you're not gonna have the quality of players who you then you want to bring into the league.
So, uh, it's, it's a good, it's gonna be a slow process, whatever way they go about it, it's gonna be a slow process. No one's gonna overtake England within a, within the next five years. I can't see it. But they can close the gap, uh, if they get the, the, the sort of ducks aligned.
Carl: And, and it's the commercialization piece in it. This, all this [01:23:00] all costs money. It's not, it, it can't be done, it can't be done for free. And what Ireland obviously managed to do, where they've managed to get the centralized contract Wales have done that. They must have taken lessons away. Were you around when England had the, gave the contracts out and then had to take them back?
Was that under your sort of periods?
simon middleton: yeah, yeah, yeah. Con contracts. Yeah.
Carl: obviously you had the, the centralized contracts, then they got withdrawn and then they got reissued and stuff. Do you did
simon middleton: no, I, I, with withdrawn, I don't, I don't remember him being withdrawn. I think that the process, the process was that when I first came in, the players would be contracted on a camp by camp and tournament by
Carl: right.
simon middleton: And then they introduced X amount of, uh, contracts. It's probably about 20.
The, this point, the sevens were all contracted full time,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: contracts in. Uh, and then they, as they increased, and what they did is they, they tiered the [01:24:00] contracts. So
Carl: Right.
simon middleton: AB and a C contract. Uh, now I think there's, there's still that sort of format, but there's more of them, more, uh, I don't know.
Uh, don't, I don't recall 'em being ever being withdrawn.
Carl: No, I thought I, I maybe it was how it was reported that there was, as you said, with the tier or something like that, it was reported that England contracts were awarded and then they were sort of withdrawn. Maybe it was at certain levels, maybe it was how I, I read it previously, but. Um, there, obviously there's a lot of, uh, obviously Ireland have managed to free up the funds to be able to centrally contract 32 players, which is quite a big statement for a, for for, for a team like Ireland that have, have struggled should we probably fairly say within the women's game.
They've they've, they've got,
simon middleton: yeah, they've had a lot of challenges, haven't they? You know, off, off the field and on the field.
Carl: exactly. And I think that's a, it is a true, true [01:25:00] statement of how the game's moving forward as well with within the, within women's, uh, rugby that the, even countries like Ireland have now gotta set up and say, actually we've got to make this a proper centralized contract role. Otherwise you're not gonna get that development path for players.
And
simon middleton: You know, and, and I think what, what you're seeing with Ireland is, uh, and, you know, and, and I don't wanna delve
Carl: I.
simon middleton: the politics of, of, of the Irish, Irish women's game, but what was, or certainly from the outside appeared clear, was that at one point they put a huge emphasis on their sevens program, and actually they got really good returns on it.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: you know, it was very much of the detriment to the fifteens. Now they've, they've. and, you know, I'm not sure what the, the seven salary looks like. The sevens is probably paying a little bit of a price for, for readdressing the balance. But the fifteens model, you know, if they've firmly pinned [01:26:00] their, to the fifteens mass like England did, then you can see that in the contracts side, they've award the staff they've recruited. Uh, you know, and, and as I say, three years ago, four years ago, Wales did it and under your Cunningham, they had two third place finishes.
Carl: Hmm.
simon middleton: you know, they obviously, they slipped back and, and all the stuff that came out of the WIU off the back of it, uh, you know, has been well documented. And so they're
Carl: Hmm
simon middleton: this, this transitional, uh. Stage a little bit like Ireland did. Uh, but they can do it with from within a full-time program, which
Carl: mm-hmm.
simon middleton: 'cause they can, they can move it more quickly. And as I say now, Sean Lynn's in there. But what Ireland have done is they've, they've really built themselves what looks like a solid, a really solid program with, uh, a really strong fifteens group. that's also or supported [01:27:00] by some of their seventh players who've been around a professional environment, full-time environment for a while, have seen
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: in, in, uh. The, uh, the World Series and, and such. And, and so you've got some real cutting edge players that are giving to, um, some, some really good quality support to Ireland.
So they look like they've got a really good mix, you know, and then you've got players like Aoife Wafer coming through and,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: and players like that, who, you know, they look fantastic.
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: and, and what you get is what you saw the weekend, which is they put 50 points on, on Wales, uh, and you know, they've, they've, they've, they've got England, you know, at five, at half time, uh, the week before.
Uh, yeah, you, you get what you put in, you get out what you put in.
Carl: And that's it. And I, I think that's, that's a true testament of how the, the women's Game's gonna progress is those players have also able to play in the PWR, they're playing in their own leagues. And that that will grow and, and develop as well. It's gonna be [01:28:00] a really exciting next few years.
simon middleton: Yeah, for
Carl: La
simon middleton: For
Carl: one, la one last one.
Before we, we sort of say bye. 'cause obviously I've, uh, I, I've kept you for a little while, a little while here. Now your ever your, your opinion for the 2025 World Cup. Who's gonna win it?
simon middleton: Uh, I, I desperately wanna say England. Uh, I do think England will win it. I do think England will win it, but if they didn't, it wouldn't surprise me, simply because the Black Ferns will, they'll show up. They,
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: how to do a cycle. They know how
Carl: Yeah,
simon middleton: for the World Cup and, and Canada, if Canada continued to develop between now and the World Cup. Because they should have in WXV, they should have beat England. They were the better side than England in that, in that, that final game by a long way. But England showed England are great at throwing big punches at the right time, and they
Carl: yeah.
simon middleton: at the end. But [01:29:00] Canada could have been 20 points upon England after 20 minutes, uh, and it, and, and Canada to match England for physicality.
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: their forwards are big, strong and they keep going. They're great athletes. Uh, if they can add a little bit of finesse and a little bit of execute their back line, then they always show the big two hundreds to Canada. So you could see, uh, it'd be any one or three. If, if I, if I had to pick one, I'd pick England because they just look unstoppable at this moment in time.
And, and that, that you talked about earlier about players like Sarah Bern off the bench. Their bench can have
Carl: Yeah.
simon middleton: an impact
Carl: Yeah, a hundred percent.
simon middleton: any other team can even get close to that. And that could be the defining factor, uh, you know, what the, what the finishes bring when they come off the bench.
Carl: I think that's a similar luxury to what, um, Eddie Jones had when he sort of inherited England as well. There was, there was the finishes that were able to sort of take the team to that next level. And he, [01:30:00] that, that strength of depth is a, is a testament to how, how, uh, England have developed. But Simon, I just wanna say thank you so much for your time and, uh, I really appreciate it.
Obviously, you've jumped on a, on Easter Monday to, to get this, uh, recorded ahead of schedule.
simon middleton: Absolute pleasure. Pleasure.
Carl: Um, I.
simon middleton: going shopping.
Carl: Perfect. Even better. It was a, it's a double-edged sword. So, um, obviously for everyone that wants to, to hear more, obviously from the likes of Simon, everyone else that we are able to try and get on in the future.
Next week we've got rugby roots on, we're going back to old school grassroots rugby, talking about the RFU attempt to confuse everyone up until the last minute on, uh, on who was getting promoted, who wasn't getting relegated, et cetera, et cetera. So next week we've got rugby roots on, make sure you like, subscribe, share, comment on every, every sort of platform we've got, and obviously share the love in the comments for, for what Simon's done for his Easter Monday, getting out shopping and uh, coming to chat with us.
So thank you for everyone that's joined us. Uh, thank [01:31:00] you. Goodbye.