Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 1 - We are Back!

Rugby TTL Podcast Returns: Grassroots Rugby Insights, Women's Rugby, and World Cup Talk!

Welcome back to the Rugby TTL Podcast! In this exciting return episode, we dive deep into the world of grassroots rugby with host Carl and co-host Adam. They discuss their journeys to various rugby clubs, including memorable moments at Hook & Odiham and Guernsey. The duo also talks about the growing women's rugby scene, featuring a special mention of a World Cup winner. Other key topics include the challenges faced by Welsh rugby, the potential of Spain's 2035 World Cup bid, and insights into the future of England's rugby team. Don't forget to subscribe, like, and share to support the grassroots rugby movement!

00:00 Welcome Back to the Rugby TTL Podcast
00:35 Introducing Adam and Grassroots Rugby
01:18 Challenges and Highlights of Covering Rugby
03:07 Women's Rugby and Growing the Game
06:48 Reflecting on Rugby Experiences
12:25 New Initiatives and Sponsorships
14:56 The Love for Rugby and Future Plans
20:46 Discussing Rugby Challenges and Future Guests
33:46 The Importance of Welsh Rugby
35:30 Challenges Facing Welsh Rugby
37:08 The Future of Welsh Rugby
41:33 Spain's 2035 World Cup Bid
50:23 Rugby TTL's Vision and Plans
01:03:39 The State of English Rugby
01:10:10 Closing Remarks and Call to Action

Transcript

Episode 1 Normal

Carl: [00:00:00] Right. So we're back. Rugby TTL podcast is back and I couldn't be , more glad, to be back and with the lineup that we got ahead, we've obviously got bus, uh, Buster and Kent who haven't been able to join us tonight. Um, Buster's, uh, not looking too great. Uh, he's, uh, feeling a little bit worse, aware of his work.

Carl: Kent is, I think on some butlin's weekend maybe I, I'm not 200% sure is half term. Uh, so obviously we, we asked to put up with Adam. So Adam's here with us, uh, which you guys probably have seen quite a bit throughout our grassroots rugby days, which I hope you guys are really enjoying. So as long as you can keep subscribing, liking, sharing, share the pod, share everything we are doing, it will only help grow the game.

Carl: And Adam, thanks for joining us, mate. Uh, just. Thanks for being part of the pod mate really. And everything you've done [00:01:00] so far is, is really, really good mate. And hopefully you are enjoying what you're doing and spreading the word of the grassroots game.

Adam: Yeah. Loving it mate. , It's been a pleasure to be on board so far. , Yeah, it's been, it is been interesting, , to see rugby through a different lens. , I'm sure it's been the same for you,

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Adam: but coming at it from a, from the approach of, um, one, from trying to grow the game and two, you know, trying to convey the messages of what's going on at these great clubs that we visited and get it across in a meaningful way, um, in a way also that people are gonna find in entertaining, we hope has been really good.

Adam: It's been a, it's been a bit of a learning curve. Um, you know, particularly going from your first one, um, you know, when, especially when your first one, you've got Gale Force winds, torrential

Carl: Hi.

Adam: rain.

Carl: Hiding in a shipping container to make sure you don't get washed away.

Adam: Absolutely. So, you know, I, I think it is, uh, [00:02:00] I think that was, that was you going right? Let's chuck him straight in the deep end. But,

Carl: Quite lit, quite literally by the sounds of it, with a weather that was out.

Adam: The deep end, that was one end of the pitch. Um, no, no, it was great, to be fair, it was really good, really good one down 

Adam: Hook & Odiham, Hook & Odiham versus.

Adam: Gosport twos, everyone was brilliant. Um, really welcoming, great club and the pitch wasn't, despite the weather was, was really good. I had a chat with the groundsman down there, so Yeah. Had, you know, fair paid to him for his hard work, but yeah. Yeah. Loved it. And we, we've kind of seen, finally had a bit of good weather this weekend, which has been nice. Um, so the, the Adam Curse has been lifted. I think it has actually lifted a few weeks before, won't it? But,

Carl: It won't, your, won't your pod That was.

Adam: Oh yeah, no, you are right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One pod isn't gonna equal a trend, but. it's been great. Yeah. And we, we had our, , we had our, we've done some local bits and bobs. I know you've been, you know, , you know, , fighting a good fight over in Spain, covering a lot of games when you're down in Portugal as well, weren't you?

Adam: And

Carl: Pops Portugal.[00:03:00] 

Adam: to, over to Guernsey too, didn't we?

Carl: We did, mate. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. Guernsey was a good, good run. ashore. Nice to get a double header in there. Um, obviously we finally got our first women's game out the way, so obviously you were down at Havant the other day. How did, how did that go mate? How was it? How was it nice to sort of break , into women's rugby?

Adam: It's brilliant. I mean, look,

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: women's rugby is something that we follow. , Anyway, obviously I know you are, you are quite fond of our, , red roses. I am too. , You know, we, we speak about the women's game quite a lot and the players that, that we watch. , So it was good to actually go and cover a game and, and I would really hope that we, we are gonna be able to do more of that because, , the message was quite clear from the people I spoke to down there, , Tash, , and Matt, , from having and, , Kat from Hackney, , that they want to grow this game. , From obviously the women's game. It's, it's a great product. We're seeing that week in, week out with the Women's Prem. We're seeing it with the Women's Six Nations, the Red Roses leading the charge in that. [00:04:00] so it's something that, yeah, it was, was really good. Um, it was good to see the, kind of, the slightly different that they come up with, the different challenge. They're, yeah. And growing the game. So it is a real privilege.

Carl: How did it feel being outgunned by, uh, a World Cup winner?

Adam: Well, I think the fact that she's

Carl: got a.

Adam: Cup

Carl: You got out angled mate. You really, you really, you really picked the wrong angle there, mate, 'cause

Adam: I

Carl: shit.

Adam: it was about angles. I think I could have been a, stood a foot closer to the camera and cat's guns would've made mine look puny. No, she, she is like, um, yeah, like thoroughbred athlete. just absolutely shredded, you know, muscle upon muscle. Yeah. Fair play to her. But [00:05:00] yeah, I mean, you know. You, you don't, you don't win World Cups. Not putting in the effort there out on the training field. Week in, week out. And it's good to see that she's kind of carried that on, know, into retirement from, from playing.

Carl: Mm. Would you notice that she was a World Cup winner? If you didn't know that before you sort of chatted to her, was she just really down to earth when she, you were saying?

Adam: oh, she was, yeah. Brilliant. Really nice. Um, you know, friendly kind of, and even down to the point where, you know, I was, I was, I was saying there'd be a bit of lack of professionalism on my part. I was saying before I was having nightmares the night before that none of my kit was working, 'cause it was a new phone, a new setup, and I started panicking.

Adam: She's like, well, I tell you what, if it's no good, come and find me and we'll do it again later. You know? What an

Carl: Uh,

Adam: And she, you know, we spoke about what she's doing now, which is, which is great. as I said to her, you know, we spoke about her, her coaching, online coaching business and her PT business, the great work she's doing down at Hackney and how [00:06:00] she transitioned into

Carl: yeah, yeah,

Adam: Um, and, but you know, as I said to her, it'd be remiss of me not to mention that, you know, wonderful day in 2014, which I'm sure you remember well as yourself, Carl,

Carl: yeah,

Adam: you know, lifting that trophy and all that went into it. , It was quite an interesting take from someone like that because you just think it's gonna be, you know, jubilation that the second, that final whistle goes and she told, you know, a slightly different story of what it was like.

Carl: yeah,

Adam: she'd had four years, you know, having missed out four years before she played in some sevens World Cup.

Carl: yeah,

Adam: Just getting over that line was just such a big thing

Carl: yeah.

Adam: for her and the team.

Carl: I Now we're obviously in World Cup. Year as well. So the World Cup is, is in England this time round, and what an event and what a spectacle it's gonna be for women's rugby. So obviously I've managed to catch up with the likes of Bimba and Claudia Pena. , And, , , Larissa, , from Brazil as well.

Carl: So the Spain and Brazil have both qualified for the World Cup this time round. [00:07:00] And what an event it's gonna be, what's, what a place to, to be able to put it on and hopefully the Red Roses can finally get that o back over the line again. Uh, obviously.

Adam: so. Yeah, and it's, I mean, you know, women's Rugby's on the map now. I think it's fair to say, you know, they're getting record crowds. Um, you know, I think in no small part, um, Ilona Mahers helped out with, with, with some of that, but the game was growing too.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: Um, we saw like record, record crowds down at Kingsholm, didn't we?

Adam: For

Carl: Yep.

Adam: Nations games last year. Finals being played at Twickenham, aren't they? And

Carl: Yep.

Adam: just think this will really solidify the position and, and particularly in this country, if, if the Red Roses can get over the line,

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: which I think are US England supporters, uh, have got every confidence in that they can.

Carl: Yeah,

Adam: what a, what a spectacle, what a jewel in the crown for sporting achievements that'll be for our country. And hopefully, and hopefully the game in general.[00:08:00] 

Carl: a hundred percent mate. And it's, it, it will take a miracle performance by another team, I think for, for the Red Roses to be dislodged from that, from that spot. But it's, it's the other team that are gonna be in attendance that are gonna be able to be able to be put on the biggest stage world. Rugby's gonna have to offer for 'em at the minute.

Carl: Like the likes of Spain being able to come across and obviously Canada coming back across Brazil of uh, and just. The whole level of standard rugby is gonna be phenomenal and a and as you said, a last in effect for the game. Um, and we're able to actually discuss that in a couple of weeks time. 'cause I'm gonna release that now.

Carl: We've actually got Simon Middleton coming on to, uh, to, to come on and I've had him lined up for a little while and if we finally managed to pin him down, so a couple of episodes after this, we are gonna [00:09:00] have Simon Middleton, ex England women's manager, uh, on to discuss how the Red Roses got on during the, during the Six Nations and how they got on or will get on in the World Cup and how women's Rugby's progressed and obviously managed to catch up about everything he does in rugby, where he is been, what he's done, and, and obviously on that.

Carl: And I try not to push him too hard, but maybe we get to talk about that, that final and what, what may have gone wrong, but. We'll, uh, we'll, we'll we'll see how that one goes, shall we. Um, but yeah, no, it's, this is gonna be released on our one year anniversusry pretty much. So this is coming out on a year since rugby TTL started and I'm still amazed how one crackpot idea has become where it is now.

Carl: And like I remember texting you, [00:10:00] Buster, a couple of other lads, and they were like, yeah, cool mate. Like, hope it works out. Yeah, it sounds really good. And then, then obviously what, six months later you, you guys sort of joined the fold and it's kind of accelerated from there, but we're, we are nowhere near the, the start in my opinion.

Carl: I think we can go even further. There's a lot more going along behind the scenes. Obviously we've got, got some new stash. We've just done the, the, your Club stash piece as well, obviously where we've managed to find to get our. New kit decided that we wanna, we wanna roll out, uh, which obviously we've discussed briefly, but I wanna try and bring it out as part of the rugby TTL to support players that haven't got a club yet, but want to have a kit to go and train in, et cetera, et cetera.

Carl: So that's kind of where the idea come from. And [00:11:00] I know you had a big affiliation to the, to sort of kit six, was it the one, the, the quarters and stuff like that. And obviously you, you, you loved the, the banded one, which was very bristol bears, didn't you? But.

Adam: I was showing my bias there. Um, but you know, I think, you know, us middle-aged lads as busters putting out horizontal stripes aren't particularly forgiven if,

Carl: No.

Adam: if you've built like Kat, you know, Kat merchant, you can get away with horizontal stripes,

Carl: Yeah,

Adam: you look even more jacked. But, you know,

Carl: that's it.

Adam: can't.

Adam: But yeah, no, I think the true winner, shone, through, I think that was your favorite from the start, wasn't it, Carl? There wasn't any like, uh, you know, behind the scenes dodgy voting going on, was there,

Carl: No, it didn't need to be made. Everyone liked it, didn't they? So,

Adam: obviously, obviously, yeah. Obviously I've just got bad taste,

Carl: yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Adam: were all good designs to be fair, weren't they? I

Carl: Oh, phenomenal.

Adam: with any of them, um, you know, um, but yeah, no, it'd be good. So, I mean, I think it's a good design, like you say. Um, [00:12:00] hopefully it'd be good to see a few people out there wearing them.

Carl: Yeah. So obviously I, I sort of shared that information with your club stash as well. So they're, uh, we, we. Sorted it, sorting that. And there's, um, some other discussions between us and us and them to hopefully help other grassroots clubs, which will be hopefully released in future episodes, et cetera. So that'd be really cool.

Carl: Um, we've also managed to sort out a couple of sponsorships as well, so we're actually gonna be sponsoring, uh, the Flaming Unicorns again. So we're, we are gonna be on their kit alongside, uh, for them, for the Heart, heart Whale Sevens tournament as well. So that's gonna be really, really exciting to, to help, uh, mend mental health charity within rugby as well.

Carl: Obviously I managed to, to don the kit. They've, uh, they've also asked if I'm available to, to make it back to play for the half sevens, but might not be able to. [00:13:00] So Adam and his disabled ankle might have to go as our representative instead,

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: but obviously you've been around the game. Quite a bit now, quite obviously going to grassroots games.

Carl: Have you got the bug to get back playing? I know you are fully crocked and like really old, but like have you sort of thought Right. I actually need to put my boots back on here.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think when you are around it that much, um, you know, I. As, as you've alluded to, I'm not without various injuries and things, but you know, there's people who play a lot, who are a lot older than me and I can't say a lot more injured. 'cause you know, you've seen the state of my ankle, haven't you?

Carl: Yeah,

Adam: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No,

Carl: I think we might have to do a special, special pod episode about your ankle. Like just how bad it is. 'cause I don't think, I don't think anyone believes how bad your ankle actually is.

Adam: Yeah. WI mean, we're, we're trying, we're trying to, [00:14:00] to gain viewers that

Carl: Ah,

Adam: might, that might put a lot of people off once they

Carl: oh. You never. You never know. O OnlyFans is a thing. They, they might have a fetish for it as well. We might be able to make some money that way. You never know.

Adam: Well, you know, I'm not here to judge anyone's kinks, so if it can bring in more viewers, I'll, I'll definitely show me ankles, mate. Don't you worry about

Carl: That's it. Make sure you subscribe for any of that. That's gonna happen in the future. All right.

Adam: Yeah. But, but no, definitely. I mean, I think you do, when you're down there, you do think, oh, could I, could I, you know. Put me on up for a game at some point. Um, I mean, I think time constraints at the moment might stop me doing that, but certainly if an opportunity presented itself for like a, you know, any charity games we might be in. absolutely. I'll, um, you know, I'll turn up and give away a few penalties and, and, uh, but, um, but no, I mean obviously, uh, you know, I I think it's sort of pulled you back in again, hasn't it, Kyle? I know

Carl: Yeah,

Adam: moving to Spain, I think perhaps your focus was to be on the [00:15:00] coaching, but you, you, you're managing to keep a bit of hand in with, with both at the moment and you're seeing a bit of, a bit of an Indian summer in terms of your rugby career, aren't you,

Carl: well the, the coaching's come to an end, so I've had to sort of step aside from the coaching due to. Due to obviously the, the rugby TTL stuff getting busier. So the under sixteens finished their season two weeks ago. We, we unfortunately hit the hit, the crossbar didn't, didn't quite get there. We, uh, we lost to the semifinal.

Carl: We had a few injuries. We also had a red card after 10 minutes, which didn't help. Um, but the boys have developed as men, as developed as, as players. And they've, they've, they've found a love for the game, which I'm just glad to have been a part of. And the, the parents have, have Numerously said, thanks for everything that they've done.

Carl: Some of them gonna come and play for the SATs next year, which will be allowed to train [00:16:00] alongside the, the seniors that I'm gonna carry on. So I've decided, I reckon I've got at least another year or two left in me. I think, uh, I've managed to shift. 17 kilos since, since I've got back in the back in the seat.

Carl: Um, thanks to the bending barbell, John Clark, uh, obviously online coaching England deaf player, still managing to, to smash things up even at the, the rip hold age of, I think he's about 37, 38, still putting on an England shirt's, phenomenal top bloke and just, uh, really down's earth with it as well. So he is another, another prop to prop.

Carl: Being able to just tell me, stop eating like a pig. Make sure you get in the gym.

Adam: Yeah, he is, uh, say, I mean I remember his like strength accolades when he was doing more of a strong 400 kilo deadlift, wasn't it?

Carl: Filth, filth, mate. He ain't got a spine, he ain't got a spine left for it, but he's, uh, yeah, he is, he is. Got some numbers behind it.

Adam: [00:17:00] Yeah. I mean, if anyone can get you look, get, get in your rig looking like Max Le Heaths,

Carl: Yeah. Yeah, he's,

Adam: there, there's, there's a, a prop to, uh, to get your rig looking like.

Carl: yeah, I imagine that,

Adam: I think.

Carl: yeah, he's, uh, he's a phenomenal bloke and hopefully a, a, a future, future guest on the, on the pod as well. So we've, um, yeah. So we've obviously managed to, to get round a few, few places on grassroots rugby days. I'm gonna put you on the spot who's who and where has been, what's been your highlights, rather than saying who, what's been the best, what's the highlights that you can pick out of, 'cause we've had some, we've had some probably what people would put down as glamour ties, should we say.

Carl: There's some sheds, there's been some, uh, air aircraft hole hangers effectively, like we've had some various places to go and explore grassroots rugby. What's, what's been your highlights from where you've been?[00:18:00] 

Adam: I would have to say, um, yeah, 'cause because you, yeah, so you can't pick out any one club. Um, in terms of moments, I think they're, you know, the against cancer, brilliant evening,

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Adam: the weather, seeing kind of everyone coming together for a common cause,

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: that's a, affects a lot of people.

Adam: You know, it affected the organizer. That was a real special one to go to. Um, you know, and just everyone getting involved. You had, you know, players who were playing for Harlequins not too long ago.

Carl: Yeah,

Adam: You had players who had no cartilage left in their knees. You had blokes in their fifties, you know, and everything in between.

Adam: So

Carl: yeah,

Adam: a real special evening. Um, you know, you could probably argue that's more a bit of a glamor tie. 'cause obviously you've got some of those, you know, I. Star studied names in there.

Carl: yeah.

Adam: Um, Petersfield great day, just brilliant [00:19:00] facilities. Um, you know, really good to, you know, chat to everyone down there when they face Chichester. I think for me though, I, I would have to say the first one, um, just how it really epitomized everything about the grassroots game for me

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: to, to put my head above the parapet. You know, this is a club who, um, who don't have a clubhouse at the moment. It's

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: Um, they had their little, um, plasterers table with. know, selling cans of beer and, and

Carl: Brilliant,

Adam: you know, um, there was no bar. Um, the weather was chucking it down we are doing interviews in a storage shed. And I think, obviously it being the fuss one was, you know, nerve wracking, exhilarating. Um, but I think in terms of just painting the picture of what it's like at that, that that grassroots level and getting the word out there and all the [00:20:00] different, I speak, I spoke to the, um, the groundskeeper as well, you know, that was a really, really good one.

Adam: And will always hold good memories for that reason, you know,

Carl: brilliant.

Adam: you're gonna, if you're gonna start off on one. I think that was a really great one to start. And obviously we joke 'cause you were over in the sun at the time and where I was, it was raining sideways and the, and the, um, the, um, tripod kept falling over

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: at one point I was having to hold the camera out shivering and we even lost some of the footage. So it

Carl: Oh, we did,

Adam: one to pick as a real special standout. But yeah, that just. Straight in the deep end

Carl: I think I was at,

Adam: it.

Carl: I think I was actually at the Spain Fiji game. I think I was at,

Adam: you were.

Carl: I think I was up in Valladolid watching Spain, Fiji. And you were at Hook & Odiham in the torrential storm weather.

Adam: yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I suppose, you know, to put you on the spot, what, what would you say has, has been yours since you've been doing it?

Carl: oh, wow. , Obviously Petersfield were always more than welcoming. Millbrook was a really good one [00:21:00] to get across to, obviously managed to pull on me boots, which was unplanned, but I'd actually left me boots in there just in case they needed an extra player. So I managed to play for the flaming unicorns, which was really, really good fun.

Carl: Uh, I. I got a special, special place as well for, for Newbury. Everything they'd done to, to sort of potentially trigger my idea as well, alongside a couple of others about the, the grassroots days of going out to watching clubs and being able to share that message. And they did a couple of games up there and they're, they're brilliant.

Carl: I really, really glad they avoided relegation as well because they were, they, they obviously it went down to the last game of the season in regional, regional two, so I'm really, really glad they avoided it and I'm hoping we can get back up there in the, in the, in the new season as well and, and see where they're gonna put that club back where it was as well.

Carl: 'cause they're, they're unreal up there. [00:22:00] They've got a really good women's side as well, so it'd be good to, to add that to the list of places we'd go. Uh, obviously Guernsey, double Header. I've never been to Guernsey, so it was nice to get that tagged onto the list and being able to watch and Nat. Two game as well as obviously a counties one game.

Carl: They were more than welcoming over at Guernsey. And we had a good, a good little tour there, mate. That was good fun. Um, obviously went over to Sand Down. Sand down was, uh, I've, I've never played there, but I have been there as a under sixteens coach when I was at Gosport. And yeah, obviously I feel, feel like I was the curse.

Carl: I was like the end of the Gosport promotion charge. I know they'd slipped up, but fuck me. They, uh, they blew up after that. So maybe I've never allowed back at Gosport. That's, uh, so

Adam: You got too many mates there, aren't you now?

Carl: why are we not,

Adam: it's impossible to [00:23:00] pick one. Like, you know, even it's like Chineham,

Carl: oh, what a place. Yeah.

Adam: so welcoming and like, one of the funniest moments I think that pushed my level of professionalism to its limits was one of the post match games and we were right near like the balcony bit where people were drinking,

Carl: yeah.

Adam: um, doing an interview and he was getting, you know, mercilessly, heckled by and which is what you expect.

Adam: Look, I

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: it's, you know, grassroots rugby, it'd be, it'd be weird if something that wasn't going on but stood there. Trying not to laugh during an

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: was, was definitely a challenge.

Carl: Well, you, uh, you messaged me afterwards as like, you might have to edit some of this out. I was like, I, I can't. And also it's rugby. Like if he's being called a nonce and everything like that, that's his problem with his mates. Like we've, we've all been amongst what rugby lads will do and that is rugby and that's where we are.

Carl: And

Adam: Yeah,

Carl: how, that's how the game is. But

Adam: yeah,

Carl: obviously for [00:24:00] next season, obviously we wanna try and get, we. Some seven stuff in, I believe in the summer. If you agree as well, like it'd be nice to get some, some more women's games. I think the seven season's gonna be really good. I think we might miss the boat on some of the cup games because of half terms, et cetera, et cetera.

Carl: But

Adam: yeah.

Carl: what's,

Adam: the cup ga yeah, the Cup games, the sevens is a big opportunity.

Carl: hmm?

Adam: the women's games. And looking into next season, I'd love to be able to myself, maybe get a little bit further afield, to get down to Bristol, as we've mentioned,

Carl: Mm,

Adam: down to Thornbury,

Carl: yeah.

Adam: you know, where I used to live.

Adam: That'd be great opportunity. But yeah, just start pushing out a little bit further, you know, revisit some of the clubs we've been to, maybe cover some of the games that, you know, the teams that were the away team last time.

Carl: hmm.

Adam: Let's get down there and, you know, see, see what they're about.

Carl: Yeah, so we've actually in a, in another couple of, I think it's the episode after Simon Middleton coming up, we've got another Instagram [00:25:00] grassroots, uh, account coming on. So lads from Rugby Roots and, uh, we'll, we'll be discussing a lot more about grassroots rugby with them as well, et cetera, because their current players, they've got a similar mindset to, to what we want to do.

Carl: And really good bunch of lads from what, from what I've been able to speak to 'em about and. Wanna really run over what the relegation promotion reprieve process was with the RFU. 'cause seems to be yet another significant fuck up by the RFU where people didn't know until about the, well till the last game of the season, who was going up?

Carl: Who was going down. And obviously they kept sending out the world's smallest document as well, which made it even harder for people to read and understand. So th those boys seem to have got a really good handle of it. 'cause I kind of gave up a little while. As soon as I looked at it, I was like, I can't read it.

Carl: Far too old. Can't see. Um, so they got a [00:26:00] really good handle of it. So it'd be really good to see how that falls as well. And obviously where you are located, there's a good chance we can get a few more for few more leagues in as well. So it'd be good to get into, into the Sury leagues and sort of South London as well, I think.

Carl: 'cause we're, uh, we've definitely got some, some bits and really want to. Bring other people on as well. So obviously if you guys wanna join what we are doing and be part of where we are going as well, we're, we're the door's open. Like you're not gonna get paid, we don't get paid. There is no money in it, but there's the love of the game.

Carl: So if you're retiring or just generally shit at rugby, but like talking about it and want to still be part of it, give us a shout, Instagram, subscribe, follow, do all that sort of stuff. Give us a shout 'cause we want you, uh, and yeah, we just wanna carry on the movement across as far as we can go. We've got a, we've got a good few links now of into Rugby Europe through, uh, [00:27:00] all things rugby.

Carl: So obviously all things rugby have been, uh, a real big push for us as a, uh, rugby, rugby TTL well, predominantly me, obviously it's, it's allowed me to travel a bit of Europe. Adam's had to go to Hook and Odiham in the pouring rain. I've managed to. To go to the Estadio Nacional in Portugal and Lisbon and stuff. So, and obviously up into, into Madrid a couple of times.

Carl: So it is been hard.

Adam: the, yeah, I mean, obviously you, you've had your, you know, pick of games in, in the blister and sunshine. However, I will have to say, I'm glad to say I haven't had any catastrophic vehicle failures like you suffered, uh, on your way back. That was back from Portugal, wasn't it? That

Carl: It

Adam: hour, 11 hour trip, and your

Carl: yeah.

Adam: that pathway through

Carl: Yeah. It blew up. Yeah. I finally got it, I finally got it back about two, two weeks ago. So it took about just over three weeks for it to be [00:28:00] recovered from just sort Sevilla. Um, and my mate who owns a garage was like, mate, it's gonna be six weeks before I can even look at it. So I've had to go and dismantle.

Carl: The top of the engine outside his garage and uh, yeah, I think I've really fucked it. There's a lot of metal, shall we say in piston one. So

Adam: More than should be in there.

Carl: yeah,

Adam: Yeah. So obviously, you know, you've, you've had some of those more, more glamorous, um, trips, but yeah, I de definitely didn't envy that one.

Carl: I was, I was kind of disappointed there wasn't any flames or any sort of explosion, so I couldn't have like, recorded any of it and made it look good. It just went, nah, fuck you are not working any longer. And I had to, I had to crawl into a petrol station while I was

Adam: skills you've picked up along the way, I am surprised you didn't,

Carl: just,

Adam: [00:29:00] yourself.

Carl: a load of flash bangs and stuff like that with the, uh, with the dog in the, in the van with me just wondering what was going on. So

Adam: Slow motion diving through the air away from the explosion, that

Carl: us.

Adam: Imagine the views we'd have got.

Carl: But we've, uh, we've managed to through that, get a few more guests. So Mario Pichardie is gonna be coming on in the, in the, in the, in about July I believe. So just before Spain's tour to, to America. So that's gonna be really good. So we've got, got him coming on. We've got Justin Middleton coming on next week, who's the Rugby Europe commentator as well, so who's managed to cover all of the games throughout.

Carl: So that's been really, really good fun to obviously catch up with him and be able to chat rugby Europe and how well that went this year ahead of whatever's gonna happen. I know obviously all things rugby managed to throw a hair and grenade in a lot of Welsh fans [00:30:00] laps with a, with an article that I did with them.

Carl: Um, and the ATR cup, so that went down like a lead balloon with a lot of Welsh fans, which was quite funny. Um, they're still commenting on it now, like six weeks later or however long later. So there's, it still seems to be recycling in their, in their pool of hatred of anything that's outside of dismissing Welsh rugby at the minute, and obviously today Cardiff have announced they're going to probably go into administration, so yeah, it was a,

Adam: terrible look. I mean, we, we, we, you know,

Carl: it's an easy,

Adam: it,

Carl: it's an easy target. It, it obviously being English, it's easy target picking on the Welsh and they're saying, oh, you've all waited for it. Yes. Yes, we have like, we have waited for all of those years that you've done pretty, pretty well and now we've waited for it and we're taking full advantage of it.

Carl: [00:31:00] Um, and I'm a hundred percent sure that Welsh would be doing exactly the same to any English cohort that would gone seriously wrong as well. So it's, it's easy to call pocket Kettle black, but when it's on the other foot it's not so, uh, it's not so pretty. But it'd be horrendous to see Cardiff go, and I don't, I I was catching up with somebody earlier, Huw, uh, who had done the Huw Griffin, who had done the, the episode about Spanish rugby the other week.

Carl: Obviously being a proud Welshman that he is, I, as soon as it come out, I dropped him a voice note and he goes, Cardiff rugby will not be allowed to go bust, they're gonna sacrifice one of the other , uh, region, sorry. Probably to, to make sure that there is not a lack of rugby in the Welsh capital.

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: What's your thoughts on that?

Adam: Yeah. I mean, look, banter aside, love it when England beat Wows. [00:32:00] Um, you know,

Carl: That weren't,

Adam: in Cardiff for a

Carl: that was more than a beating. That was, that was.

Adam: Oh yeah.

Carl: That was more than a beating.

Adam: but you know, as much as we love that, um, you know, you want the, when you beat them, you want it to be a level playing field. We all go for our peaks and troughs in terms of performances.

Adam: Um. You know, they've got a good few grand slams to their name over the last 20 years. yeah, you know, when you see Cardiff, you know, the heart of rugby, um, you know, in terms, obviously not from a grassroots perspective in terms of the pinnacle. You've got, you know, the millenniums or principality there, you know, to see a club that's, you know, so close to it

Carl: Mm

Adam: in peril boggles the mind.

Adam: I think if someone had said this to you 10 years ago, you, you know, some people knew there were issues at play.

Carl: mm.

Adam: don't think I was one of those people. You'd have been shocked [00:33:00] at the current state of how things are now. You know, you had players threatening to go on strike years ago,

Carl: Yeah,

Adam: ago, maybe. You know, these are blokes who've grown up, you know, whether you agree with it or disagree with it. These are blokes who've grown up, you know, rugby's in their veins. You know, they probably grew up wanting to represent their country. You know, uh, hearing that national anthem, the first time they take the field at the principality is what they dreamed of.

Adam: So for them to be in a state when they're threatening to go on strike, and I think it was even before an England game,

Carl: it was, it was before an England game. Yeah.

Adam: tells you a lot, doesn't it? So love to beat 'em, but hate to see

Carl: Oh,

Adam: of affairs. Is, is

Carl: what

Adam: is the only way I could summarize it.

Carl: world Rugby needs Welsh rugby. And I'll put my hands up and say that it is needed and you need a competitive Wales to make it where it is because of how [00:34:00] long they've been embedded within the game. And. I really feel sorry for Jac Morgan potentially, uh, at, in the current state, is he gonna become another Sergio Parise?

Adam: yeah. Does does it, does it, does it put any, does it impact his. chances in any way, shape or form, or will the coaches know that he's doing enough? I mean, look, the back row, if, if you look at the back row across, you know, all of the home nations, it's a very, very, stacked area, in terms of selection. will they be able to look at that in isolation and go, yeah, the players who deserve to be there will be there.

Carl: At, at bare minimum he will be going as the bin juice captain, in my opinion. I think he'll go [00:35:00] midweek Captain. I. And if it doesn't start one, maybe at least one test and be on the bench for the other two. I can't, I can't see a Lions Tour without him. How good he is a, he's just an exceptional talent at the age and to come back for, he's recently just not long out, quite a serious injury as well.

Carl: He was out for a, a fair period of time, which really hampered whales as well. And I think obviously they've got a bit of a resurgence under him. And how, how much do you lay at Gatlands door? Do you think Gatlands took the job back at the wrong time or was it Gatlands fault? Or is it just the whole thing is just shagged and just needs recovering from start to finish?

Adam: Look, I mean, you could argue there are a few questionable choices in terms of leaving certain people out. I think, was it Anscombe? got brought in after

Carl: Don't play, don't play your 10 at 10. That's basically what it was.

Adam: but I think, so my view [00:36:00] what tells me it's more fucked than perhaps I'd first realized, 'cause once, you know, you've got that slight bounce back when Gatland one, they looked a bit better.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: Uh, I think it was they put a relatively good show on against, and you think they've got England in Cardiff, they've lost a record amount of games. This could, um, you know, right. A lot of wrongs. It

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: you know, in the eyes of a lot of those fans, if you know, like it or not, still love beating England.

Adam: Um, that could have. You know, um, healed a lot of wounds in that regard. I'm not saying it

Carl: Hmm.

Adam: solved the issues, but to get pumped like that by, know, their greatest rivals, that tells me something is, is proper fucked there. And I dunno, I, I don't know what the route back looks like. like to think [00:37:00] they'd make it back, but I, I don't know when it's gonna come or how long it's gonna take or how it's gonna happen. thoughts on that from you?

Carl: Good question. They've got an exceptional under 20 team. They've got an exceptional pathway. But how many of them gets lost to the system? 'cause they don't play in Wales. 'cause there is not enough regions left because one of them's about to go in the bin. It one way or the other. One of them is gonna go into bin.

Carl: And whether it's Cardiff or not, one of them's going in the bin because they can't afford to keep all four running. So Welsh Rugby's about to lose 50 pro players. Uh, and they've got a, they've gotta seriously look at it and say, actually we are just gonna say you can go play anywhere in the world, um, to be able to get called up now because there's no other way around it.

Carl: That's the only way they're gonna be able to save Welsh rugby at a national level

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: by allowing them to go to France, go to all [00:38:00] these other places to make sure they make the money they, they deserve. Rather than centralized contracting them saying, you've gotta have 60 caps if you go anywhere else.

Adam: It's not working. Is it?

Carl: It's not where, well, not when you've gotta play a pool of that small, but then also only have potentially three regions to play in.

Carl: It's, it is just not gonna work. Um, I think the o the only place that's potentially got smaller player pool in Europe, rugby Europe at the minute is Switzerland. So Switzerland have got a 5,000 player, 5,000 players registered to play rugby in Switzerland. At at, at level, roughly 5,000. And they've.

Adam: the likes of Spain and Portugal now have more registered players

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: eligible than even Wales do.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: Okay. I.

Carl: [00:39:00] Because of the grassroots, like you've got, you've got, so in in Portugal you've got the top 12. So you've got 12 pro teams. Is there, is there elite level rugby within Portugal? So what you're looking 40, 50 players each, each team potentially. So that's 600 players there registered at an elite level, plus all the players that are going and playing in France, going and play in across wherever.

Carl: Then you've got Spain, you've got Division de Honors got 12. 12. Yeah, so you're looking the, the squads are maybe a little bit smaller in Spain, so maybe 35. But then you've got the Division de Honor B, then you've got all the players in the Pro, in the Pro, pro 14 in France. Then you've got players in the Pro D2.

Carl: Then you've got the in the If, [00:40:00] yeah, Wales have got a very limited pool of talent, but they do so, so well for what they produce. But if you reduce that even further and only have three regions that are playing top level rugby in the URC, where are they all gonna go if you're not allowing them to go and play in other leagues to play for the play for their nation?

Carl: I just, there's no other option left for 'em, I don't think.

Adam: Run running out of ideas. Um, you know, I mean, you mentioned the regions. I mean, that's a, that's, that could be a whole podcast episode

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: But, you know, I've got friends who are, know, even longer in the tooth than I am. Um, you know, one of my friends who I work with, you know, uh, grew up in Neef.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: He loved going down and watching Neef play. Had some brilliant stories from him over the years

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: experiences going to watch him. And that was one of the things that, you know, [00:41:00] he had a big issue with at the time, um, was them going to the regions and what they kind of lost in doing that

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: how, to him at the time, he felt like it, it would be, um, an issue at some point down the line.

Adam: Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of foresight to,

Carl: Um,

Adam: notice when something like that's gonna eventually come back to, to bite. yeah, it's, it's, um, best of luck to him. That's all I can say. It's not a, it's not a problem. I'd like to have to have a go at unpick him.

Carl: no, that's it. Um, obviously Rugby Europe, I know we've likely touched on it as well, but Spain 2035 World Cup bid. Uh, I'm sure you, you obviously have through yourself and through the, through the article we've done, but what's, what's your thoughts? Do you, do you think it's needed? Do you think it's the right bid for them at the right time?

Adam: Yeah, no, I, I like the idea. Um, you know, there will be some people who, who perhaps, you know, feel [00:42:00] it's more one for the purists and it should be, uh, an established rugby nation hosting a World Cup. I don't agree with it. Um, I think what we've said before, Carl, you know, the likes of Spain are a good sporting nation.

Adam: When you look at their, sorry to always bring things back to football, you know, as, as we often do when talking about this game, if you look at their sporting prowess from, um, you know, from a, um, standpoint, very, very good Recent, obviously broke our hearts, but, you know, won the recent Euros

Adam: .

Adam: They've won World Cups, they've won, you know, back to back European champions oh eight in 2012. They have got the makings of a good rugby nation, that's gonna take time, obviously. But I think a World Cup would help massively with that. And, you know, they've got the infrastructure to deal with it, from a, you know, from a getting about point of view.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: but also from, you know, being able to accommodate an event like that.

Carl: [00:43:00] Hmm.

Adam: You know, you'll know more about the kind of rugby stadiums they got over there, but I dare say they'll probably, commandeer some of the existing football stadiums in order to be able to put an event like that on. So I'm, I'm all for it.

Adam: And obviously, you know, if that means I can go over and watch a World Cup in Spain, you know, no, no bias on my part there, having a few Spanish beers in the sun. But,

Carl: That's it.

Adam: yeah, that, that's my view. I'm all, I'm all for it. Um, you know, I imagine, I don't, I dare say it's something that you'd be quite on board with as well, not just because you're living there and it'd be easy to get to.

Adam: I know you, you're quite passionate about. Rugby in Europe and in particular Spain as well.

Carl: I, I think the only, so as I, as I wrote in the article, the only thing that potentially let Spain down is they haven't actually got single rugby stadium that would be able to accommodate a World Cup. There isn't a single rugby stadium in Spain that is built to any sort of [00:44:00] capacity. So you'd have to lean on La Liga.

Carl: Obviously that would've to what? So you'd have have to play during the summer. Which obviously out here is gonna be above warm, should we say. So yeah, it's gonna be pretty, pretty filthy playing in a hundred percent humidity, pretty much. And 40 odd degree heat during the heat of summer, which is gonna be hard.

Carl: But obviously looking at the other bids that are being thrown about, you've got, obviously you've got Qatar, Saudi, and UAE looking at putting a bid together for the same periods. And Japan. Japan will be the safe bid. That'd be the easy one for world rugby to pick. 'cause they've already done it. It'd be 16 years after they'd done the last one.

Adam: done

Carl: Easy.

Adam: well.

Carl: They'd done a really good job. It'd be a really safe, easy bid. UAE, Saudi and Qatar would be money based, so not [00:45:00] on rugby merit at all. So. That would be a, they would have a lot more questions around the integrity of the game potentially than what would actually be merit based. Spain would be the perfect fit.

Carl: Imagine that. Being able to play the Rugby World Cup final in either the the Bernabeau, which has just been redone. The Nou camp or Athleticos Stadium, or just any of those grounds. Just being able to split the Spain national team between Madrid and Barcelona or obviously, and then being able to go and play games Valladolid and being able to play games down in Alicante or Elche and stuff like that.

Carl: And being able to spread across into like Sevilla, you've got Real Betis, you've got Sevilla stadium. They're literally two and a half miles apart, something like that. They're really close as well. You've got Valencia, it's just redoing the Mestilla. You've got, um. [00:46:00] You've got unreal network of football stadiums.

Carl: That is gonna be the issue. That is football. That's the only downside to me that it is a football ground. But who knows if they win the 2035 bid, they might say, actually we are gonna build a rugby stadium in Madrid. Uh, obviously they currently use the, the university ground, which is where I went for the, to cover the, the Georgia game and the, and the Holland game as well, which was, it's a great, great little stadium.

Carl: Like, but there's no seats limited. There's not really a bar. There's limited safety. It is all those bits that they've gotta add up that they won't be allowed on a World Cup bid. Um, getting around Spain's easy, like you've got the train, you've got the planes, you've got every bit of perfect access to get around.

Carl: But I think the only thing that may hold 'em back is, is the bid with I. The non rugby stadiums and how that would fit in [00:47:00] alongside La Liga. But Spain are holding the football World Cup alongside Portugal and Morocco in 2030, I believe. So it's not like they're gonna be short of hosting a good few really big sporting events and being able to showcase how that goes.

Carl: So it'd be nice to see if they did it as a joint bid between Spain and Portugal for 2035. I think it'd be a really good showcase of Rugby Europe. yeah, it is. I'd love to obviously have it on the doorstep, you know that. And I think a lot of people would love to see it in somewhere other than than that.

Carl: And I think a few people put comments on about having it in the Pacific Islands and stuff like that, going to Fiji and stuff, and fully on board, but.

Adam: totally. Yeah.

Carl: Problem. Problem is you've gotta sort out the corruption and the fucking, how badly run those, those nations are. They don't even pay the lads. They don't pay [00:48:00] from the travel, they don't pay for all the other bits, let alone hosting in the World Cup, where most of the money's gonna go in somebody else's back pocket.

Carl: Then actually improving the, in the facilities. But yeah. Sorry mate. I, I had to have that little rant because it's just not feasible at the minute. They're just so poorly run.

Adam: No, I agree with you. You, you do hear some of the horror stories and there's a documentary out there, uh, a couple of years ago on

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: as well. , Yeah. , Yeah, I agree. , You know, when corruption, , is as prevalent as it seems to be over there, you do want that money to be used in the right way.

Adam: And unfortunately, it does put a bit of a, , does put a bit of a black mark on it for them hosting it. , As much as you'd love it, you know, obviously the, I think, , owes a lot to the Islanders and,

Carl: Agreed.

Adam: nations. Um, I don't think there's many not, you know, people's list of top 10, 20 players that wouldn't have a good few of those

Carl: Mm.

Adam: from that [00:49:00] part of the world in there.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: Um, you know, I think Fiji are kind of everyone's second team, aren't they?

Carl: Yeah,

Adam: for the most part. Everyone loves watching Fiji play.

Carl: yeah.

Adam: so yeah, it would be, it'd be good to see him have it, but, um, yeah, also Spain, but yeah, obviously it's not without his challenges.

Carl: No, I think there's a few move moving parts and I think obviously world rugby have probably got a. Understand all of it first, and hopefully they don't just get blindsided what the money that's probably gonna be put on offer, shall we say. Um, I was, uh, we've actually got an interview with, um, Steve Noble from Rugby Asia.

Carl: Uh, he's coming on in a good few episodes time, so we've got a little while yet, but he manages to, he's covering a bit of the, the Asia World Cup qualification period as well. So we managed to catch up with him after that, which we'll see how that ties into Belgium. Obviously [00:50:00] managing to, to qualify through the fifth spot in ru uh, the REC and be able to, to give us a really good opinion on how those nations will be able to compete against the likes of Belgium and stuff going into the November qualifiers as well.

Carl: So that's gonna be really good fun to, to understand how that goes. But yeah, so obviously Ads. Rugby TTL mate, what's, what's your, what's your plans? What do you want? Where do you want us to be? What, what, where do you want us to, to go? I know we've got some big plans and we discuss a lot of stuff and obviously we, we want to, we wanna try and stick to our roots about grassroots and obviously with, uh, the rugby Europe stuff.

Carl: But I know you've got a real passion around Bristol as well and obviously theirs. What's your opinion of their season? How do you think that's going? Do, do, do, do you wanna share that with more, more often as well? I dunno if that's, some of the people would like to, like to hear like the unbiased opinion.[00:51:00] 

Adam: um, yeah, I mean I definitely don't if I can share an unbiased opinion when it comes to Bristol as you know, yeah, absolutely. I mean, would love to be able to do a bit more reporting and putting my thoughts and feelings across on. Uh, different levels of games too. You know, the, the ones that I watch, I spend a lot of time watching rugby, so it would be a shame not to perhaps put some of that to use in, in, in what we do here in the podcast.

Carl: Mm.

Adam: I think you know, this is more in the Pie in the Sky pipe dream stuff. I think what would one day be the goal? I mean, our purpose is to shine alert on grassroots rugby, isn't it? Um, and it would be nice to get it to a position where, you know, you're not having to focus on so much of the issues that people are facing.

Adam: Hopefully get to a point maybe where a lot of these challenges that people are facing are resolved.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: Um, you know, and the grassroots rugby. Um, although we do [00:52:00] that, we, we talk a lot about the successes. It becomes more about those successes and know, all the numbers of people that are getting involved.

Adam: And I. You know, aren't having to wait months and years to get clubhouses built and, and

Carl: Hmm.

Adam: like that. Um, but

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: you know, um, definitely, uh, definitely want to get down to, to cover some games, you know, further afield. Hopefully my schedule, next season will allow me to do a bit more of that and I can start, , getting in the party bus and driving a little bit further with my, with my little bag of tricks and conducting some interviews, , here, there and everywhere.

Adam: I'd hope.

Carl: , You managed to get along to a Bristol Bears Harlequins game, youth game, didn't you? ,

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: obviously ma managed to not get any content due to, due to what it, what it was and who it was and where it was, et cetera, but. Like, you, you, you, we can't, we discussed it afterwards. What, what is the level of [00:53:00] those players that are in that, that pathway?

Carl: Because like we, we know that we discuss about how do people get into that pathway, but how good are they?

Adam: Yeah, very good. I mean, I was, I was, I was fortunate, so, I mean, I was fortunate, so I gotta give a shout out to my friend Ben, who is a ref here in Surrey. and he got the opportunity to be one of the officials at the game.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Adam: so mentioned to me, knowing that I'm, , you know, a, a Bristol Bear supporter. So down I went in my, jersey.

Adam: Uh, but I did bring my, did bring my kit with me on the off chance I might be able to speak to someone.

Carl: Brought,

Adam: The,

Carl: I thought you meant you brought your boobs. I was like, they're not that desperate.

Adam: Yeah, he said, uh, they said under sixteens. I thought they said over sixties. Um, no, uh, no. So, um, yeah, they, you know, funny if I was chatting to a few of the,

Carl: I,

Adam: the, the, the dads there, um, who were down there watching their boys, [00:54:00] Bristol lads playing, and we were just talking about the difference between these 16-year-old lads now compared to what we were like, um, you know, huge difference. They, they, you know, I'm not saying people weren't dedicated before, were, but these lads live in the gym.

Carl: yeah.

Adam: not trying to go and, you know, the likes you and me, Carl might be drinking white lightning, uh, in a park somewhere, um, we shouldn't have been at an impressionable age.

Adam: These lads aren't about that life at all. They're less, less worried about, you know. Trying to get their oldest looking mates go buying beer fags. They in the gym, take their supplements and yeah, they were good. The skill, the speed of it, that's what I couldn't believe.

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: the speed of the game and yeah.

Adam: You know, didn't look like you were watching lads at that age plan. They could have been, they could have been 20 years old.

Carl: [00:55:00] Really?

Adam: Um,

Carl: Yeah.

Adam: I think we've seen some of that in the, you know, the under twenties game as well. When you look at the, the, the quality we're getting there now.

Carl: Well look at en Henry Pollock. He ain't too bad as it. He is not. He's just above average in he, I reckon.

Adam: he's pulling up trees in, he, you know, and he's, was he 20?

Carl: Go another Lions tour. Do you reckon?

Adam: It's, I, I dunno, I think where he plays. I

Carl: Is it,

Adam: if there's too much else

Carl: is he gonna,

Adam: of competition.

Carl: is he gonna go as a bag carrier? Is he gonna go there and just get the experience? Like Buster loves the, the development squad, the players that are around the, the, around the bit. Do you reckon he's worth going there as part of that?

Adam: I mean, I dunno if if he, if he was in any other, I mean, yeah, I, I'll rate him highly. I mean, he was, you know, 20 World Cup winner last year, wouldn't he? You know? Um,

Carl: Didn't do too bad. Two, two tries against Wales

Adam: yeah, two [00:56:00] tries against Wales. , You know, he's, he's, he's been doing absolute bits suddenly. , We, whether he'll be ready for a lions call up now.

Carl: directly goes midweek, goes and plays along the other side to to, to Jac Morgan in, in the midweek team.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I just, I just think if, if it was any other position, well then again, you know, you know, even any of that back row though, you know, if you look at the back row across Scotland, you know. England, the, the Curry twins. You know Ben

Carl: damn bad.

Adam: No. Who

Carl: Caelen Doris, who's your, who's, who's your, who's your lion's captain?

Adam: Bloody, that's a good question. I really thought of it.

Carl: Before the end of the Six Nations, I was adamant it was Caelen, Doris,

Adam: Yeah,

Carl: but I've got an inkling that it's gonna be Itoje. I think Itoje turned into a completely different animal. I'm not a big, [00:57:00] I don't rate him as highly as many do,

Adam: I've,

Carl: but I've got feeling he's turned a corner.

Adam: I think, yeah, he has, in terms of captaincy, um, he, you know, I think he got away with one against Scotland, didn't he? With that, , with that turnover, not quite as much of a penalty machine as he has been previously. .

Carl: As soon as you're not allowed to kick in a ruck, that fucked Itoje. That was, that was the end of a Itoje's ability in turnovers at times. 'cause he was phenomenal. Just being able to wade in with his size 54 feet and just kick everything outta the way, but.

Adam: I think there's a case for him though, but I, I have to think with it being Andy Farrell,

Carl: Agreed.

Adam: it'll go Doris. Really?

Carl: Yeah. I can't think of anyone else.

Adam: Yeah. a, a very worthy choice in my opinion.

Carl: Jack, Willis go? 

Adam: I mean, look how, look, I mean, how good has he been over in [00:58:00] France? Oh, hang on. Have I got the wrong? My Willis is ran the wrong way.

Carl: no, no. Tom. Tom Willis is the Tom, but it's Jack. Jack Willis. Does he go like, because he hasn't played, does he go, does Courtney laws in the conversustion? Do, do you see Owen Farrell on the bench? Do you see him on the bus?

Adam: That's a funny one, isn't it, with it being his dad as well? Um, no, I, I, I, I don't know about laws 'cause he's playing in the

Carl: Probably did the,

Adam: two and the Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I rate him highly, but I think, um, at his age and the fact that he's playing in the second tier, I think that might, that might make their decision easier not to

Carl: yeah,

Adam: him. Um,

Carl: Will,

Adam: yeah. I've, I've, I've got one for you then. Who is your who? Who's starting at fly half?

Carl: I don't think you can look past. [00:59:00] Finn Russell,

Adam: Yeah. That's it for me. I mean, I know he had a shocker with a boot, didn't he? But I think

Carl: I think, I think the, if you, you gotta take four fly offs effectively, and I don't, I think it's gonna be Finn Finn that starts, Finn Smith will be the backup for our thinking in that. Then have, you'll have Sam Prendergast and um, Marcus Smith

Adam: You

Carl: for,

Adam: over um,

Carl: yeah,

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: Crow Crowley's Crowley's dropped off. I think he's an exceptional 10, but I think he's, he's off to, he's off to France. He, he looked really struggl in the last game as well. Um. He really, really struggled in that last game for Ireland [01:00:00] when he had the opportunity to, to step up against Italy and just couldn't lead the team in the way that he used to be able to.

Carl: Um, I think there was a big question mark around him leading into it. And Prendagast, I, I, he's just raw, he's a liability, but he's also exceptionally talented at the same time. And I think that just comes with game time. It's no different to what Marcus Smith was as slash is like, I dunno why we keep wasting him at fullback, but if we don't think he's the best 10 in England, why do you put him at fullback just to think he's gonna be, make something there.

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: If you, if you're gonna back Finn Smith, you back Finn Smith and then you, you obviously have to use Marcus Smith as that, that, that impact player. I, I think Marcus Smith potentially lost a lot of credit. From the Netflix [01:01:00] documentary

Adam: Yeah, it didn't paint him in the best light, did it? I mean I'm sure he is a very nice s lad, but, um,

Carl: maybe

Adam: the, the, the Range Rover and

Carl: might have been a bit G Wagon and that might have been a bit,

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Carl: might have been a bit bit of a misguided option. Like I'm fully on board for for rugby players. But having a brand and I think that's the only way the game moves forward. And as I've previously said, like we've discussed the game needs players to have shirt numbers.

Carl: Like I think that's the only way that people can attach themselves to players and create a brand. But I don't think that was the best way he could have created a brand.

Adam: No, no. It, it is, you say it was quite uncomfortable viewing and not, 'cause he came across as. But arrogant or anything like that? I, I suppose, um, yeah, it's just,

Carl: It was potentially misguided. I don't think it looked, it do, it didn't, it didn't [01:02:00] put him in the best of like, uh, but I don't, that's no reflection on his ability. Um, I just, I dunno. I, I don't know if he's the best 10. I think he's an exceptional rugby player, but we just, I dunno.

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: I could just, just his speed and stuff like that.

Carl: I'd love to see him at nine. Imagine that. Just fucking throw a, an grenade because Borthwicks got a duty of being able to fuck nines up. He does pretty well at destroying nines. So like, maybe we need a nine. That is a 10. I don't, I, I.

Adam: well, how many times have we had been excited about the next nine coming into the fold? You know, once, um,

Carl: Raffi Quirke, we've had obviously Van, van, port, fleet, they've all just disappeared into nothingness and like Alex Mitchell's now our only option, and he seemed a shadow of what his ability is playing for England.

Adam: Yeah. And even like Harry Randall, biased, biased aside, you know, me being biased [01:03:00] aside,

Carl: Can't fucking, he can't, he can't box kick for shit.

Adam: , Yeah, it's, it does make you wonder what goes on with, 'cause these are, these are talented players. , You know, I think, , Jack Van Po Fleet, he had a couple of good games for England. A, look, I know it's a different level.

Adam: There's no denying that

Carl: Mm,

Adam: for them, didn't he?

Carl: yeah.

Adam: Um, scored a worldy of a try the other

Carl: Mm,

Adam: premier, didn't he? Um, he's, they don't, they've not become bad players.

Carl: no.

Adam: What is it about this England setup that causes these nines to on the big stage?

Carl: Is the, is the sticky plaster firmly back on now to a World Cup? Like Borthwicks not gonna not, he's not gonna get sacked now, is he?

Adam: No you won't. I'm glad you brought it up actually, 'cause that was something I wanted to, to to you about was it's, it seems more rosy than it did before the Six Nations. But are you fully convinced I, [01:04:00] and you can see the way I put that question might tell you that I'm not fully convinced and people will say, oh, you know, stop being so negative.

Adam: Stop being so critical. Get behind the team. This is being realistic and it's born out of a place of a lifelong England rugby supporter.

Carl: I, I'm,

Adam: World Cup we go into,

Carl: I'm fully behind the team. I think the team that we've got is Perce, potentially one of the better teams in the world. Uh, there's something fundamentally wrong within that whole coaching itself. You can't have that many coaches leave. You can't have.

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: We can't be playing one brand of rugby one week and then the next week the coaches left and we can't get on board with that.

Carl: You can't have players that are not playing to their full potential without somebody sitting. Like, if that was a business, which the RFU is, that's not a business. If that was a business, you'd be sitting back and saying, hold on, we've got our best performers not performing. What are we [01:05:00] doing wrong? And your l and d would be getting fucking raped to make sure that they get the best outta those players.

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: And if you've got a, if you've gotta ask questions that people don't like to hear, then sometimes you, that's rugby though. Like we are grown men and grown women that play the game. And you run into people as hard as you physically can. If you can't, then ask questions about what you did right or wrong, because it might hurt someone's feelings.

Carl: The game is gone.

Adam: Yeah, agreed. No, no one is above criticism and

Carl: It's not criticism, it's constructive breakdown of what may have gone wrong. If somebody's then fucked up, then you have a cons. You have a constructive conversation with 'em on how they've fucked up and how we make sure it never happens again, not, it doesn't need to be finger pointed, it doesn't need to be sacking.

Carl: It doesn't need to be all of this. Every time people can still come back and develop and redevelop and change what went wrong by actually [01:06:00] realizing something went wrong without having to lose their job for it. And I, I, the last person to keep saying about managers getting sacked in rugby, I, I don't, I agree that's probably the really good positive that we have in the game, but sometimes people can't move past what they've done wrong to make sure that they can do right in the future.

Carl: And that's when the point comes that people have got to move on for the best of them and the club and for the nation, et cetera.

Adam: It does make you wonder what happens in sport though, that um, do sometimes get this, you know, the classic definition of insanity when everyone else can see it. But you, and look, I know Steve Borthwick is a far superior rugby coach than I I would ever be.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Adam: But when you can see the glaringly obvious, what is it about it?

Adam: I mean, we had it with South Gate, Gareth, south Gate with the football team. What is it [01:07:00] about coach and sport at that elite level that makes certain people not be able to see the very obvious issues that are at play?

Carl: I think it's more down to success. They judge things on how far people go in tournaments rather than progression of players. Like I think we've kind of moved away from players progressing. To how far, we actually get in a tournament like obviously England used to be, oh yeah, we didn't do that well, but this player has become this, this, and this.

Carl: And then we've gone flip reverse. We've got to World Cup final or semi-finals, we've got to Euros finals back to back. We've lost all of these tournaments and then we've Judge Jar Gareth Southgate on that and I, I feel the, the same probably happened to potentially Eddie Jones. Towards the end. He managed to get to the World Cup final in 2019.

Carl: He got this and this and this, and like they get a stay [01:08:00] of execution because they get to a certain target rather than the RFU setting targets on player progression and player improvement and player development. We've turned aro off in the game and more focused on results, which is a really contradictory statement because the game is results driven.

Carl: But I think we've also gotta focus, focus on player development for the future and progression of the, the, the nation, rather than solely just on results.

Adam: Yeah.

Carl: that's a, that's a proper riddle there. I've like

Adam: Well, no, no, I think you're right. 'cause one will lead to the other. Ultimately, you know, if we've got this better pathway for players, one that keeps the game alive.

Carl: Mm

Adam: if you don't have new fresh blood coming through all the time, some point the game will eventually wither on the vine, won't it?

Adam: Um, but also that will breed [01:09:00] success. The more players you have coming through, the bigger player pool you have, the more involvement in the game. Eventually you would have to expect this would start to translate into success at a higher level. Um, but that, so, yeah. So no, I don't, I don't think it's as much a riddle as, as perhaps your, your, your first thought. Um. But I think the big, the big one that, that, I suppose the big shock for me recently while we're on the subject of all things England, was, uh, the voter confidence for Sweeney, because I was pretty convinced it was gonna go the other way from things that, you know, that I'd read and, you know, lots of people coming forth with votes and no confidence. It was, um, wasn't what I was expecting. But, you know, we've got him, he's not going anywhere.

Carl: Uh, yeah. Wow. That was another curve ball with rugby and rugby [01:10:00] being run by money. And that's my biggest fear around the 2035 World Cup bit as well. So on that cliffhanger, we'll, we'll leave that there. I think. So thank you everyone for joining. Uh, it's been amazing to get the pod back underway. Adam, thank you so much for joining again, mate, and thank you for every you doing grassroots rugby, uh, anyone that wants to come and join rugby TTL to be able to push the grassroots rugby game forward.

Carl: Please reach out. Also, if you like us rambling about shit and want to hear about the, the other guests that we've got coming up, just reach out on Instagram. We're on TikTok, we're on Twitter or X or whatever they call it now. LinkedIn, obviously Facebook and obviously YouTube. So click that subscribe button, follow, like share.

Carl: Make sure you get other people involved and let's just keep growing the game. Thank you and goodbye.