Episode 28 - The Dan Richmond Interview - From Northampton to Reshaping International Rugby Lineouts and Scrums

Join us for an enlightening episode featuring Dan Richmond as he shares his extensive rugby expertise direct from São Paulo, Brazil. We delve into coaching techniques, the strategic development of emerging rugby nations like Brazil, Chile, and Uruguay, and discuss impactful World Rugby initiatives. Learn about mastering line out throws, the importance of dynamic game-situation training, and the challenges of coaching remotely. This episode also highlights nurturing young talent, achieving elite performance, and overcoming career challenges in the world of rugby. Tune in for compelling discussions, actionable insights, and the passion of rugby!

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to Rugby Through The League's podcast. Another episode this week. A nice little tedious link from one rooftop here, to our guest this week, Dan Richmond. So Dan joined us this, week from, uh, Paulo. So throughout the, uh, throughout the pod, there's a little bit of background noise, which is nice to, to always mix up to see where he is and in the situation that he's in.

So Dan joined us from Sao Paulo, Brazil from working with their international team for that week. So jumped on after a break. Busy day of, , of coaching as well, which is really, really appreciate that Dan. And, , I mean, we had a really good conversation about coaching techniques and how world rugby of, , trying to make an impact on the world, , the tier [00:01:00] two, tier three and developing international nations, which I know sometimes we'll give a lot of heat for, , for the RFU and world rugby making certain decisions, but there's a lot of stuff that they seem to be doing in the background that don't seem to be telling other people about.

which is a bit of a, a bit of a shame because what a world rugby do, do sometimes is good. Sometimes it is dog shit. So let's, , let's try and shine a light on the positives for a change. And, , let's get on with this interview. Dan, really, really great guest, extensive rugby knowledge, , extensive rugby CV.

It's been around a little while, but it's got a real passion for the game and a real passion to try and make a difference with the. players that he's got, , that he's trying to coach with the Italian pathway in South America. So a lot to tap into and a great episode. I know last week was a slight change to the schedule program because we should have had Dan on last week's episode.

But hopefully the grassroots rugby review was was a positive and people enjoyed it. I know it was [00:02:00] a slight difference. However, we are going to get back to a bit more grassroots rugby stuff. As I said in that episode, , in the coming weeks. So we've got a couple of lads coming on from England to, , to help.

We've already started taking bookings and scheduled stuff in. So yeah, the lead up to Christmas looks exciting with, , some really good episodes coming up for, , for grassroots rugby as well. So thanks for everyone for joining. Make sure you follow subscribe, like comment, share the Share the love of the pod.

Let's try and keep this growing and, and we can obviously get the talk to some bigger guests. And, , obviously this one, this series sort of comes to an end at the end of November and then we go again in February, but in between we're going to fill it up with a grassroots rugby. So, all right, let's get on with this one.

That's another blinder. 

Carl: Right, so, got another, another interview in this week. We've got Dan Richmond on. , as you can see from the background, Dan is not in England, I can assume. , and , obviously the nice busy road and central hub. For [00:03:00] those Dan who, that don't know where, where are you now currently based and where have you sort of travelled from and that?

Dan: Yeah, so currently working out with the Brazilian national team. So I'm in downtown Sao Paulo. So, , yeah, you're, you're hear, , the busy streets. , yeah, so I've got a week here working across the, , the men's women's programs, , and supporting the coaches.

Carl: Brilliant. So Dan, obviously your rugby CV is quite extensive. You've done some bits. Obviously you're over with Brazil at the minute. Where's a brief overview of where your journey started, how, how it sort of got to where it is now. And then we'll sort of jump across into what you focus on currently and how you want to try and make an impact within world rugby for those.

Carl: Cause you sort of recently focused more on like the, the Tier two, tier three nations. Is that sort of where it's at the minute? Are you trying to focus on bringing them up to to level with, with your current line out coaching?

Dan: Yeah. So again, like World [00:04:00] Rugby are obviously targeting, , The developing nations. , so again, a lot of those countries, , the challenges are they have a smaller playing pool. and often a lot of their coaches come from the amateur game. So 

Dan: again, part of my role as a, as a coach and a consultant is to, again, just help, , bring over some of the modern techniques, latest thinking strategies, is happening at the top of the game.

Dan: And, , most importantly is, is to help. the education of helping to develop the coaches and the players to, , again, sort of, , accelerate their learning, , so that they can be self sufficient. So, , yeah, very fortunate to, , been approached by World Rugby. , and, and yeah, so I've been, , able to sort of, , travel, travel the world and, , again, help. , so I'm, , mainly, , I get sent out to South America, , and that link, , sort of developed over time from when I was working in the premiership and, Augustine Creavy came over to Worcester and

Dan: Worcester got me in as a, as a consultant to focus on the line out throwing

Dan: and, [00:05:00] um, in, in Argentina., they, they refer to the hooker as a central prop. So again, , the history of scrummaging was that the, , the hooker would not hook the ball. , and the role of the hooker was again, to be that central prop and line out throwing was, , not on the radar for their skillset. So, , Gus came across and we did some work together and off the back of that, , it was, he recommended me to come into the Argentina environment.

Dan: And that's when, , that program started with going out, running coach development, , educating the players on the skills. Now I was fortunate enough as a player, For my time at Northampton Saints was to be coached by Simon Hardy, who was the England throwing coach and Simon would go around the clubs working with, , current England players and, and also as a goodwill gesture, he would work with the English qualified players. I was very fortunate. , my competition was Steve Thompson. , [00:06:00] and, , again, I was fortunate enough to, be taught by Simon and

Dan: again, you know, I regard him as a, as a mentor, a friend. , and he's been very supportive to me, , my development. and again, I've been, you know, so fortunate , to pass on those skills.

Dan: Cause again, , it's still, , a part of the game that, It's a little bit misunderstood. So

Dan: again, I'm going to try and share that, pass on that knowledge.

Carl: Yeah. Amazing. So obviously South America, sorry. Going into the middle of that, you said, then understanding the hooker as the middle prop or central prop is, is the skill gap completely not there and it's a blank canvas or have you got a a base knowledge and then sort of teach out bad habits or are they just sat there on YouTube and then you've come in and said hold on we've actually got to do this this and this like that must be a really weird platform to work around

Dan: So, so when I, when I first started, going out to South [00:07:00] America again, it was a case of working with the players in their development squads now.

Carl: so when when did you start that

Dan: yeah, 

Carl: when was what year did you sort of get out there

Dan: was around about 2012, 2013.

Carl: okay so a little while ago 

Dan: yeah, yeah, fair, fair while back now. 

Dan: Um, so again, like most players, what happens, and this happens across, , all clubs, all countries, that the young hookers get taught by a senior hooker.

Dan: Now, of course, what happens is the senior hooker taught themselves how to throw, and they teach that way. So that,

Dan: that was very common. Um, and of course there's some natural body mechanics in how we throw a ball, which is,

Dan: which is, naturally if I asked you to throw a tennis ball or American

Dan: football, you'd grab it in like a C shape and you'd rotate and you'd throw it.

Dan: Now

Dan: that natural throwing movement. [00:08:00] Has a lot of errors in it when we asked for into a lineup where we want everything linear and 

Dan: pointing towards the target and symmetrical. So, , that's that's common. That's that's like the common theme that when I start with working with players is how to, , introduce new movement patterns and for them to become more aware of, body there that dominant side to the body. And how to, how to regulate that. So, so yeah, so most players get taught by senior pros or they watch players on the TV. 

Dan: Um, and as we know, you know, uh, a senior player now is never injury free. So, so what you

Dan: see is, uh, uh, an athlete performing with compensations because they've all got niggles and shoulder injuries or neck injuries or

Dan: the years of being, um, battered in the scrum. So they make compensations. So the young player watches a technique which is full of

Carl: [00:09:00] Yeah.

Dan: and they think that's the right way to throw. So there's a, there's

Dan: always that little bit of,, reeducation, , that, that, that goes into, to help them to do it. And then it's, it's, , discovering the new movement patterns, getting comfortable with those. , and, and yeah, and then, then they sort of, then it's over to them to, , refine their technique based on their movement, , their, their mobility, , , to produce. Oh,

Carl: video games and stuff, they've got like the mechanism and all of that sort of stuff. Have you got a world rugby team? Kitted you out with a load of Gucci gadgets that you could Record it put them in like a green suit make him like look like it do all that or if you literally got everything's videos And you break it down second by second to rotate the player.

Carl: I don't know obviously this is Yeah,[00:10:00] 

Dan: no, so, , probably some, some great sort of, , reading and background. , the, there's a great book called the inner game of tennis, which talks about the, the body can produce the movement. It just doesn't, it hasn't learned it yet.

Dan: And if we try and, , give lots of information when we ask a player to perform a close skill, so like a goal kick or like a line out front, , , That inhibits the natural learning process.

Dan: So what I've explored and tried to develop over the years is a way of creating physical exercises which performs the desired movement without overloading with the detail. And

Dan: the big decision with a closed skill that the coach has to make is that if I choose to make a correction or make a suggestion, Be it positive or be it corrective, it's going to [00:11:00] interrupt the natural flow of the movement. So then that player will start to think about said correction or or become aware of something and that will be at the detriment of of the other parts of the skill, the rhythm.

Carl: Okay, so it's you, so you basically go through the movements without telling them what the end goal is. Are a lot of them sort of receptive to that? Do you, obviously, I'm sure there's a review at the end that this is why we've done this X, Y and Z and then, but you don't want to overload it. But like, surely there's some that will respond to you've got to do this, this and this.

Carl: Others will. You've got to be slowly, slowly, catchy monkey, filter it in. And that, that must be quite difficult to do on short windows because you seem to go in consultant, go in for a week or two weeks, come away, there's a lot of carry ons and stuff. How do you, you've got to obviously try and understand that between the player and the [00:12:00] coaches as well, I assume.

Carl: So quite an impact to make in such a short period of time. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dan: with like a senior pro, what you've got to respect is that they have created their own technique. So, uh, it's really important that we sort of, again, build the foundations of trust. So it would be, it would be wrong to go in and say, I can, I can help you improve your technique here, here, here, here, because they're actually going to be defensive because they're already at a competent level. So, It's about taking them through the session, , to try and find like a quick win, identifying something that they can feel the benefit of, because the close skill is about, yes, we want, , an awareness of what you're going to do, but we want you to develop a movement pattern. And we want that movement pattern to become subconscious over time. [00:13:00] So it's about feeling the movement. , So

Dan: there's that blend between, okay, an understanding, so knowledge of the movement, but actually performing the desired movement and how often can we perform the desired movement. Now, that might be like you see with a lot of, , Hookers practicing, they might be laying back on a yoga ball, they might be using heavy balls, they might be using, , resistance bands. And that is just a way of training the, the movement pattern. We want the different sort of, , muscle firing patterns. So with, with an established pro, we're only looking for maybe like a one, two percent , refinement to their technique to the younger players. We can take them through that skill development pathway.

Dan: So, , we can ask them to perform an exercise with a specific hand placement, but then over time that then develops their technique. , but again, [00:14:00] if you do that with a senior pro, then they, they look at you funny as if like this, this, , that, that. little bit reluctant to explore. So, so that like everything that that's the balance and you know, you've got to, you've got to respect they've, they've created their skill, their technique through their experiences. So, , a friend of mine, the coaches said, , best advice that I've tried to carry on is it's, , it's connection before correction. And with, with my, , my work where I, I, run the line out throwing program in the Italian pathway. , that has been so valuable, , especially working with, with the pros over there.

Dan: So, , got to create, , again, got to create an enjoyable space. You've got to find a quick win for those senior players. So they start, so they start to become receptive to exploring techniques. And like we always say, if we introduce something new, if they're open minded to try it, [00:15:00] then we ask them, then I'll sort of ask them to say, okay, now what percentage of that do you want to carry over into your practice? So if we, if we've done something to make the hand placement more effective, , then they try it. Okay. We wouldn't expect, I wouldn't expect them to go straight into, okay, now I'm going to go straight to this. This is like. Practice in isolation, feel comfortable with it, try it in practice and then through those reps you will naturally adopt that technique and then you'll produce that in the game. So, so yeah, so it can be quite a, , a strategic sort of,

Dan: , way in a slow gentle way of introducing, , change and refinements in, in those senior players.

Carl: Are the, , senior players probably the most resistant to you coming in or,

Dan: no, 

Carl: some really open or, 

Dan: no, no. 

Carl: exactly. Yeah.

Dan: all are because again, they're competitive animals. They want, they want to improve. They [00:16:00] want the one percenters. They want, they want that nugget.

Dan: Um, you know, when you're working with those, those players, it's like, well, okay, let's, let's explore. 

Dan: Tell me what you like and we'll go down that route.

Dan: You know, they, they've got to be part, they've got to be part of that. , as I say, the younger players that the newer players is designed a framework that I take them through because they've got to get that that volume of repetition into into their into their practice to develop that muscle memory.

Carl: That's the same thing. Is it? They say that if you do an action 50, 000 times, you become world class or something like that. Is that same sort of your muscle memory becomes your, your bog standard. If you go through the same trajectory on your, on your line out throw that you practice and you build that framework around

Dan: Yeah. So there's there's

Dan: a little bit. Um, Again, that, that 10, 000 hour rule, you know, they've, they've now

Dan: sort of dug a little bit deeper into that. And, , that study actually came from, [00:17:00] I think they were like a world class orchestra to begin with.

Dan: Um, so, so, yeah, so, so, um, the simple hours, it might be 10, 000, it might be 8, 000, it might be 12, 000, but, but the point is, it has, the key is that it has to be purposeful, it has to be

Dan: accurate practice and, and

Dan: that's where a lot of my work now with the, the players I've worked with over the years is they'll drop me a video and then, you know, you know, They might have come back from a little injury and that's always when we start to see some compensations. 

Dan: , so you just need a fresh pair of eyes and, , yeah, we can then sort of advise them with mobility exercises, working with the strength and conditioners to, to enable them to again, get, get close to, to optimum.

Carl: What is the most common thing then that you have to correct or feel that is the most common across the board for correction requirement? I know you've said obviously players naturally put [00:18:00] compensations in because of injuries. Is, is that the most common or 

Dan: No, no. Yeah, yeah. So the most common is the hand placement and the hand placement affects everything. So,

Dan: , however, with that said, when it comes to working with a new player is you can, you know, you can't just go straight into working, working with corrected hand placement because they'll go from being able to produce a throw to not be able to produce a throw. 

Dan: And, , you know, they'll be, they'll be pretty disappointed with me. So. Hand placement has a big impact on, , your setup posture, your recoil rhythm and how you release the ball. 

Dan: So, , again, over the years of trial and error and exploring different ways is that, , we created like a, a framework that, that I use that if we can get a, an effective posture and a consistent recoil rhythm.[00:19:00] 

Dan: Those two elements of consistency is an introduction into exploring hand placement. , and then

Dan: once then, but, but again, like I say, we've established players and the thing that I hear the most is like, , Oh, this feels really strange. This is really alien to me. And it's, well, of course, once you've done a hundred of those,

Dan: maybe, maybe it'll, it'll feel a little bit more frequent.

Dan: So again, the, this, those sorts of sessions have got to be, , you know, they've got to, they've got to be fun. , they've

Dan: got to be a session of exploring. So again, my, ,my, my demeanor, my delivery has, has to, , make sure that we stay in that, that way, because again, as soon as a player starts to over process, they're going to start to, , again, like tense up a little bit and, and, 

Dan: that has a, that has a detrimental effect as well.

Dan: So, , yeah, it's, it's a real, real balance on delivery and, , the technical aspects.

Carl: You mentioned earlier as well about WhatsApp and stuff like that and players being able to send videos of, That has that been probably one of the [00:20:00] biggest step forwards in your Accessibility to players while being away though You can you don't have to be there, but you can still access them quite easily They can send you exactly what's happening and you can review it.

Carl: Has that been a big stride forward for Supporting the the developing nations as well without having you to be in brazil, etc all the time 

Dan: Yeah. Yeah,

Dan: exactly. And that's a big tool tool I use for the, , again, working with the Italian pathway so that the players are in their different, , WhatsApp groups around the country and they post videos and then I can give them instant feedback and the coaches and they can again, they can be supported through their practice.

Dan: So that again, it's the correct practice as opposed to, , repping something that is going to be ineffective and cause problems down the line. So, yeah, I think You know what? What's come out of covid again is everyone is more receptive to this type

Dan: of communication and learning and and and [00:21:00] in a way that that was again, you know, another a great challenge for me was okay. Can I, can I coach this skill without physically being there? You know,

Dan: how can I, how can I design exercises whilst we're whilst we're having this conversation now? , so yeah, so that that that's been, that's been a great, a great chance and I'd encourage that to a lot of coaches, you know, okay, can you coach passing what's on a zoom call or goal kicking or how would you explain it? And, , you know, so yeah, so there's been, there's been many, , many sort of WhatsApp video calls where I've got props doing their crouch bond sequence against the wall and got hookers, , you know, laying on the floor of their, of their apartments and, , you You know, spinning a rugby ball and so on. So, , yeah, yeah, it's just about again for me, the challenge was being able to communicate it effectively and design the relevant skills for them to go and practice.

Carl: So you haven't had to resort [00:22:00] to start doing like a demo in your kitchen at home, while you're sat there trying to throw, spinning a ball in front of, or propping against the kitchen side or 

Dan: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, yeah,

Carl: walks in like, what, what are you up to Dan? What's going on?

Dan: she, she know. Yeah, she knows. So it's like, right. Hold the camera here and I'll let me do this. And yeah. So, so that, that's, um, that, that happens quite frequently. So, um,

Dan: but Yeah. and, and that's the other thing is like that being able to sort of collate, um, a large amount of like, you know, video of training and so on.

Dan: And, and, and for me that that's what, that's always the pursuit for me, the challenge is like, okay, how can I refine this exercise to to be. the best exercise for a specific element of a skill. , that, that's, that's what sort of like, you know, really, really floats my boat.

Carl: Nice. So we've mentioned, obviously you go in and sort of support the players. You also mentioned about, obviously, developing [00:23:00] nations, a lot of the coaches are coming off the amateur game, etc, etc. You have to coach a coach who's had to adapt their own way of learning to coach to start with. How do you go in and support them?

Carl: Is it the same WhatsApp groups, the same framework, the same? this to support the players or are they part of it because obviously a lot of coaches are probably pretty much one or two coaches they can't cover they cover a wide span expanse of that developing nation do you give them enough to guide the players and you support the players or how does that work and how do you sort of build that framework alongside the coaches

Dan: Yeah. So again, it goes back to that, that connection first of

Dan: all, and, and, , again, to get it, get an understanding of, of, , where they are within their season, what that looks like within their. the challenges they've got with their player development, their skill development, , [00:24:00] and, and being guided by them.

Dan: , again,

Dan: it's like, you know, I'm here to help and support first and foremost. , so they're very much part of the conversation. Okay. Where, where

Dan: did you want to start? , and, and then we build from there. And often once we've had a day or two of that, then, then the conversations go a bit wider and we go a little bit deeper into it. , again, ultimately my role is to, it's to support them. So first of all, I've got to

Dan: get an understanding of their environment, the challenges they face and,

Dan: and it's never a perfect environment. , you can imagine if, , , the coaches out in Brazil, they have to deliver one session on the pitch from, with the men, and then they might have to go straight into another session with the women.

Dan: Now, is that two

Dan: different session plans? 

Dan: You've got to think about the energy levels of the coaches. , often they're getting in very early, so they could be out on pitch for maybe three hours. It gets crazy hot. You know, you think

Dan: [00:25:00] about hydration. , there's all those factors. So it's never this perfect. Perfect model. So, , a lot of these coaches have got, , tough challenges anyway. So,

Dan: so, Yeah.

Dan: so it's just, it's just working with that and understanding those challenges and then exploring ways to implement whatever their specifics are. If it's player development, maybe strategy or maybe it's about developing the culture of the mindset.

Dan: , you know, the mentality. So, so, yeah. , so be, be guided, guided that way. So, , and often it's great to get off site, get out of the, , get out of the office and, 

Dan: , you know, go, go and find somewhere off site, have a bite to eat. Everything's a little bit more relaxed and, , you know, get, get to understand the environment and the challenges and, and then, and then work with them.

Carl: So obviously you've done done Brazil. You've previously gone to Paraguay as well. Correct?

Dan: Yeah. So this year, this is [00:26:00] my second trip to Brazil. I did a

Dan: week in Paraguay. Again, starting with like introducing the line out throwing skill, because again, it's,

Carl: Yeah.

Dan: fairly unknown the techniques out here and then supporting around that. So again, the program looks like, , any areas that need support, those sorts of things.

Dan: Then previously before that, , this year I've also been, , with Spain and with Portugal.

Carl: Nice.

Dan: so, so, yeah, so it's been been busy.

Carl: Yeah. Lovely. So I actually saw Brazil, , last, November, I think it might've been November. So they come and played Spain, , they come and played in Spain. So they played against, , Canada, , they play Spain, Canada, and USA and Brazil in a, sort of a , two week tournament, they played a semifinal the week before and then played afterwards.

Carl: But Brazil, they look like they're a proper outfit to it, to a certain extent. They got to about [00:27:00] 60 minutes and then sort of the batteries run out, but there's. A really good base to start from as well for an emerging sort of nation is, is it now they're at the sort of point of the one and the two and three percents that will make a difference between them making an impact on the, world stage?

Dan: Yeah, I think so. They're what I've what I've been so really impressed with is they've they've got their high performance center. ,

Dan: of course, you don't look at it. Look at it on that. They're sort of physical development with with their like their fitness levels. They're their endurance. , they're they're big men. they're big powerful men. 

Dan: , you know, they're blessed with that. , yeah. So I think like you look at teams like Brazil, Chile, you know, being fortunate to be involved with the Chile program pre World Cup and in the World Cup to see how

Dan: they've kicked on from that experience. And

Dan: Brazil are on their [00:28:00] coattails really sort of chasing chasing them down.

Dan: So. , yeah, so, so they're definitely the World Cup qualifiers. , you know, they're gunning for to try and follow in Chile's footsteps with getting to the World Cup. , they've got some players playing over in Europe as well, which, which when they're brought back into the squad will definitely make a difference.

Dan: So it's often a balance now at this stage of the season for, for these nations is to Develop some strength in depth, bringing some of the young players, , and try and focus on some of the upskilling and improve their, their conditioning. , so that when it gets around to, , you know, the, the World Cup qualifiers, they, they've got, they've got their identity and that's, what's really important.

Dan: It's like, you know, what, what is, you know, we talk about the Brazilian forwards. Well, what's that going to look like? Is that a big

Dan: scrum? for penalties? Is that? A really aggressive more. Is it? Is it a team that plays off the top and plays a lot of

Dan: fast tempo? You know, [00:29:00] whatever that looks like. I mean, they're, they're they're certainly starting to put that framework together.

Carl: No, it's good to see. And then, because there's a lot of hype around Paraguay being probably the, the more of the emerging nation, but obviously you've got, I think, have they got to take on Hong Kong, China in the, in the sort of the qualifier, how it, how it models out for the qualifier mix or something like that.

Carl: There's a,

Dan: Yeah, Hong Kong, Hong Kong's in the mix. Definitely. And yeah, being over there again, what's great with these nations is the infrastructure is in place. So again, they

Dan: have another Olympic training center. Good gym, good pitch, , what the challenge for the nations are is the strength in depth 

Dan: is the depth chart. And often it's like you get your under twenties, you know, and then they go straight into the seniors. 

Dan: So, , I was having that conversation today is like, you know, my, my [00:30:00] time working in the premiership. When I worked with a team, the paid right up to the salary cap and. You could drive performance in training because you had a like for like, you had one guy that was star and the guy that was, was, , you know, on the bench. was of equal caliber. 

Dan: So the standard in training and games, it just took care of itself. I was then been in other environments in the premiership where they had a very low budget and you had to get every ounce of grit and determination and resilience and guile out of the guys

Dan: because underneath them were academy players coming through. So, , again, for having those experiences, it's like, well, how do we drive standards now?

Dan: One conversation that we had today was looking at someone like, well, what does world class look like? , for example, when I worked with Chile, we timed [00:31:00] the speed of the ball for the different areas of the lineouts. So we could get a

Dan: marker based on, okay, what does the tier one nations throw and how quickly are they into the air? 

Dan: And, and are we near that because Because that group was going into the unknown. They'd never played against England,

Dan: Japan, Samoa, and so on. So it was like, , we needed to give them targets, , where we wouldn't have got equal competition through just, just the individuals because there was, there was a goal for the ability. So yeah, getting creative with, with how we drive the standards in this I think is the key really.

Carl: Yeah. So obviously, as you said, you've gone Spain and Portugal as well. They're probably more of a tier two nation, so they're probably a couple of steps ahead. Obviously, they've got to find the one and the two percents. Is the framework a lift and shift from all tiers? Or have you adapted a tier [00:32:00] two one as well?

Carl: Because obviously Portugal. Went to the World Cup, done very, very well, , created an identity for, as a very good international side. They've got a very good sort of league system and obviously competing in the, the Rugby Europe Super Cup as well with, , the Lustianos. And then they've got their own sort of competition within the Rugby Europe Championship as well, putting up a bit of a fair fight against Georgia.

Carl: I think Georgia obviously are that step above and people can't quite. there, but they've got aspirations to get towards that, which is, which is brilliant. But is your framework lift and shift or have you got to adapt it from emerging to tier three to tier two? Or how does that work in your side of it?

Dan: Yeah. So with, We, for example, my trip earlier this year with, , with Portugal was to, to work with their pathway. Cause again, if you think about it, 

Dan: you know, if we're working on a, on a world [00:33:00] cup cycle of four years, well, if I'm working with 19, 20 year olds, the likelihood

Dan: is that they, they need to be prepared.

Dan: So, So,

Dan: that's where you're, you're looking at like the, the foundations of the skill. , yeah. And then the following week I went in with Spain. Now that was a different challenge. They were,

Dan: they were, 

Carl: A

Dan: get, that was a game week. So again, it's a completely different approach is being guided by the players, , for their throwing.

Dan: So we want them to be confident. , we want them to be efficient in their movements, make sure they're, make sure their timing is correct. , and that week, again, it was, , , helping them to around their scrum and some, some work with them in the, in the gym and, and so on. So again, the, the, the trips, the trips, , always have like specific, , goals for them.

Dan: , but like I say, the, for, for like the, the tier two, tier three nations is that on a, on a World Cup cycle, you know, year one, those 19, 20 year [00:34:00] olds, you potentially could be involved. In the playing squad for for the World Cup. So, , yeah, it's important that we start to introduce the skills that allows them to allows them to perform a level that maybe they've never experienced before. This is a conversation I was having today with the players is that the skills that we've explored today aren't to enable you to perform at the current level there to enable you to perform. at a higher

Dan: level, more consistent when you're in a World Cup playoff to try and get into the World Cup. You know, the, the level of consistency, what we need there, we know from our experience, you're not there yet. So

Dan: that's, that's the reason, that's the reason why. So, , but again, on the whole that the players that I've met and worked with in the coach and that are always receptive and, , you know, it was, it was always, , a bugbear. , for me, it's [00:35:00] that, you know, in professional sport, the margins of winning and losing are so fine and, , coaching can sometimes be a close shop.

Dan: , so I was like, well, I need to put my money where my mouth is. If I've got something to offer that's a skill, then I can't just keep it for myself. I've got to, I've got to get out there and I've got, I've got to share it. And, , you know, off having that shift in mindset. , it's, it's, it's got to this point and, and I've, it's opened more doors, , than it ever would have if, if I'd just tried to, , you know, keep, keep all that information to myself and be,

Dan: be paranoid about sharing it if someone's going to copy it, because again, what, what, 

Dan: I've come to learn over, 

Carl: YouTube. Everyone can watch YouTube or watch games. It's there like

Carl: they've got somebody else. And Alice, we obviously had Tom, , Martin on the all black sevens performance analysts the other day, everything's being watched. Everything's being analyzed. So what you've got hidden away and they pull it out of the [00:36:00] bag.

Carl: Somebody else has watched it and figured out how it's been done. So. got, you've got to pass that knowledge on, and that must be, you must, that must make you feel pretty, like, I know obviously flying around the world and getting all of that, but actually seeing some of these 19 and 20 year olds getting to a World Cup cycle and things start to click, that must be, hold on actually, I've, I've made an impact in the game that I love.

Dan: yeah, again, it's a, , Again, why? Why do we coach? You know,

Dan: um, ultimately, like, we're chasing dopamine, aren't we? That

Dan: dopamine here. And how do we get it? We get it through sharing and supporting others. And that, as you say, that sort of, that moment of being proud and happy to see, , you know, that small part that maybe you helped a person with or or just got them to think in a different way.

Dan: And ultimately they've done the work. So, , yeah, it's massively rewarding. And, , that's, you know, that's a very, very proud, [00:37:00] humbling moment. , you know, but then there's the other side as well, you know, like, , you know, professional coaching is, you never know what's around the corner. You've got no stability.

Dan: I've got, you A very supportive wife and family. And, ,

Dan: you know, yes, it's, it's fantastic that I, I'm, I'm out here coaching, but then I've got my wife at home holding the fort with two children. And,

Dan: , you know, when, when I come home, it's like, you know, I'm like, , all hands on deck trying to be super dad and, , picking up the slack.

Dan: And, , so, so yeah. And, and like I said, there's, there's always that uncertainty. You don't know contracts come to an end. You don't feel like things are going to be renewed. So. You know, I've come to learn that all you can really do, like I say, is like do your best in that moment. And, , if it's good enough and you've built those connections with people and they see value, then often good things come of that.

Dan: , you know, and that's, that's what, that's what I can control. , and that's, that's really, really the focus. So, , yeah, yeah, it's a great, great to still be part of [00:38:00] it. It's great. Those moments when you get this. You make, you know, you make an introduction to a technique and you get that like,

Dan: Oh yeah.

Dan: moment, you know, like the penny drops and you see the

Dan: smile on their faces like, you know, it's like, right, you've done it. once. Now we've got to do it 1000 times. So, you know, get, get to work. So yeah, so I feel very fortunate.

Carl: So the, so as you said, you're with, , a World Rugby. So are you contracted to World Rugby or are you sort of available to these nations and they reach out to you individually? Or how does that work?

Dan: Yeah. So, um, yeah, so I did, , like a contracts, , which is a specific amount of coaching days. 

Dan: , so again, this, this will be my last trip for this year unless, , I get requested elsewhere. , and then, yeah, then we'll see what happens going forward. , my work with Italy, , which again was, was an independent contract.

Carl: ,

Carl: Yeah.

Dan: so I [00:39:00] was asked to come and, , set up a meeting. the throwing program in Italy. So there was a more of a standardized program. Now that was based around using the body mechanics. And, , I brought a great coach in called Jo Hopkins. She's a, like a biomechanics coach and she had a dancing

Dan: background. And, , what, what was great about that?

Dan: The point of difference was that, of course, in, in Italy, they don't play sport in schools, so they, you know, they

Dan: have to go to an external club. So when you're

Dan: picking up a, yeah, you're 16 year old, 17 year old athlete,

Dan: there may be not got that physical development or coordination. , so we would identify any areas physically that they've got to develop, put extra exercises into those to help them to perform the movements.

Dan: So

Carl: Yep.

Dan: This is, this is my third year. , and the whole purpose was for, , me to hand over the program to the Italian coaches in the pathway and an Italian [00:40:00] to run the program. So I'm currently mentoring, , a coach that will take over the program. My last visit is in January. , and, and then pass it on. And again, that's, that's another example of where I've got to, you know, Put my money where my mouth is, because if, if I, if I'm so against people, , try to try to sort of like, in a way, being a little bit insecure about, about their position and sharing knowledge.

Dan: Well, you know, I can't say one thing and not do the other. So it's been, you know, really rewarding, again, learning more about how you work with the Italians, which is a different culture and also the different regions. , You know, that that's that's been great for me. So for me, my my personal development comes from being in different environments and again, adapting and learning how we can make the most of that situation.

Dan: And, you know, he was Wayne Smith, who said, you know, when he was fortunate to be coached by him in Northampton is like, you know, if, , if you keep [00:41:00] sharing your knowledge, it forces you to evolve. , , so, yeah, so, you know, I certainly a believer in as funny as it sounds, , you know, I've been, I've been fortunate in this game now to coach in the Premiership, I've coached players in the top 14. I've coached internationally. I've coached at a World Cup, so I feel very fortunate and I've coached at all levels and I've got to that stage where, again, as most young coaches and most young players are, you're in that striving mindset.

Dan: And I certainly was. , you know, they're, they're sort of in my early career. It's like, okay. I'm now coaching the line out. All right, I want to be coaching the scrum, right? I want to be the force coach, right? I want to do more than that. And everyone, we get caught up into this. What's next? What's next?

Dan: What's next? And, you know, I'm certainly guilty of that. And, you know, you pick up scars along the way. You know, I've, I've, , been a consultant, you know, you're, you're last in and first out. And, and on reflection, you get to those moments in your career. Um, cause you know, as a coach, [00:42:00] you're either in work or you're out of work.

Dan: That's that's it. And it's inevitable. You will be out of work and you know, those moments in your life where it's like, right, what's next? What am I going to do? Where am I going to focus? How am I going to build from there? And, and all those, , you know, situations where it starts as a negative, you know, you can look back on and say, well, you know, Okay, if I didn't get let go from this club because of financial reasons, I wouldn't be where I'm at now.

Dan: There's no way. So, , you know, I wouldn't have coached it on World Cup. So, , yeah, so, so that's kind of again, probably my, , little bit of resilience and probably stubbornness of, , you know, not giving up and, , trying to find a way. , That's, that's, that's kind of where, where I feel at the moment. So, you know, what will be will be.

Dan: I'm going to enjoy my week here, working hard with the guys, keeping in touch with them, , finish up, , the, the program with Italy and, and [00:43:00] then see, see what happens.

Carl: Yeah, so they've, um, obviously come across their own little challenges, stuff like that. So when, have you had to sort of go into much sort of S16 Academy or under 16 Academy group work? Have you, what's the sort of nuances you've come across if you've had to come into that level? Obviously, you're probably working at a high performance level.

Carl: You haven't had to try and teach kids that can't throw to start with, but. Well, you say that. So again, the pathway work in Italy again is exactly that is getting some of those players that might be back rowers. They might be props. And again, you can't make a decision on a 16, 17 year old. So the view is that if the coach feels that is potentially there, you know, a potential position for them, they come into the program.

Dan: So, yeah, we've had players that are, you know, Green is grass and they're [00:44:00] starting from the basics. So I think what's important to say is that the challenge for that age group coach and for most coaches, they say that the classic sort of Tuesday, Thursdays is how do you, how do you build your structure of your session that has an element of development in it?

Dan: Now, yes, we can ask the players to get to training early or stay a little bit longer after. But if we can also build that into. training session, then, you know, they're going to get two hits of that, that repetition. And, um, and, and that's, that's something that again, you know, you see, you see in the modern game, if you go, go towards the training sessions, they have, they talk, they call them like, you know, like athletic primers and that might be some physical exercises to prepare them for maybe like, you know, their footwork across the ground and they're jumping or the throwing or the lifting.

Dan: And, and it's just, it's just building those habits. Um, and so that, so that again, for the [00:45:00] youngster, they're starting to develop first of all, the movement pattern, but then they've got to get control within the movement pattern. And then we've also got to remember that they're growing. So there's going to get to a stage where they use all their coordination.

Dan: And, um, and again, that, that was something that we plotted through the, um, the pathway program in Italy was again, taking some measurements of the players and realizing that when they get that spike and they grow from there. 19 to 20 and they start to put on some muscle mass and how that then affects their mobility, you know, their, their range of movements.

Dan: So having that, that focus of, of as they're growing, making sure they're doing their, their foam rolling, their stretching to be able to, to, to move how, how I'd like them to move. So, , yeah, so, so that's, there's, there's always that, that, that, that constant battle. But again, if you can think about, What's the part of the game that you're trying to coach?

Dan: Okay. What's the break that down into its components? What's the movement [00:46:00] pattern if you, you know, you've got now we've got, you know, , internet access on the phones is like we've got, we've got a wealth of knowledge in our palm, so, 

Carl: you 

Dan: know, there's, there's so much content out there that can help players and yet building that in is a, is a great way of their physical development.

Dan: So they can then perform the movement patterns we control and then you build that into the part of the training session where, and then you start looking at challenging them. So, , you know, that's a big thing we that, that put him in a situation, see how they, how they can perform in that situation. Then you've got the talking point of, of what they can learn, what they can try next time.

Dan: And, , you know, that, that develops that understanding. 

Carl: Sounds like I'm on the right, right path. I do a lot of situation play with them and just trying to put them on, make them, get them, get them making decisions because it's alright just going through the motions, getting , banging lineouts.

Carl: It's [00:47:00] getting, make sure it's the presentation off the top as well, because if they're, that's sometimes the hardest bit. It's sometimes, They're making sure that can get one hand to it, they can get two hands to it. Trying to teach kids that are just, just learning the jump. You can get one hand, get two hands, or make sure you go back towards the nine, not push it the opposite way.

Carl: So, yeah, situation plays work out really well for them and they all get a little bit excited and they think, Oh, that's, this is it. And they're like, I have to stop them. They're like, lads. Why did we make that decision? Why did we go that way? Why did we do that? And then when you ask them, they're like, uh, I don't know.

Carl: And there's, there's one lad that always questions why I've stopped it and why I've said X, Y, and Z to understand it more. And, and he's always questioning why have I, why, why have you said that? Why have you done this? Why have you done that? I said, because of this, this, that, and that. He'll go away, disappear, and he'll make sure he never does it again.

Carl: And [00:48:00] I'm like, Happy days, take that. And then there's others that just vacant and you got, it's so hard to work around different people's personalities and, but when you get to the end of the game and end of a session and everyone, it's all starting to click. That's the bit that makes it so much, so much easier to go back for a Thursday or a Tuesday after a game day.

Carl: But yeah, it's been fun. sort of coaching that age group I did under sixes for a bit and under eights because my my boy's seven so I sort of I was in that age group by default yeah that's that's like herding cats that's yeah that's that's 

Dan: right yeah I um when so when I finished playing at Northampton yeah took took a contract with Bedford Blues and um 

Carl: yeah yeah 

Dan: They, they were still part time training Tuesday, Thursday evenings, and, um, I worked at Bedford Modern [00:49:00] School.

Dan: Um, and, and that was a great, great apprenticeship for me to just work across all the different age groups. And, and as you say, talking about herding cats and, um, yeah, it was sort of, I remember again, I had, I had like, you know, working, working with the year eights and I designed this program and, and again, cause they all just honeypot, don't they?

Dan: They just, just swore. 

Carl: Yeah. 

Dan: Um, and I was so chuffed and I was like broke down this session and started with like passing because I wanted him to pass around, around that swarm and, , and I wanted the defense to try and resemble some sort of line. So, so, yeah. Again, broke it all down as you know, fresh as like a level three coach and using all my knowledge there and okay, we're going to build up the passing skill and then we're going to build up some defense and we're going to go from a drill into an exercise, which is a little bit more fluid and then we're going to go to a game and like 20 minutes in the kids are just carnage and they're just running around and not really doing anything [00:50:00] and you just have that moment like right, we're going to play a game.

Dan: This is the game. Defenders. If you can make a attack before the pa the attack of made two passes. You get the ball back. Yeah. And instantly a line, they're running up. 

Carl: Yeah. 

Dan: Attackers are going pass, pass, carry. You know, it's like, yeah. You know, it was like a, a real, a real sort of like, you know, a, a batch of a fire, a moment.

Dan: It was like, it was like, yeah. It's like right. Get rid of all that, you know, static stuff and um, you know, coach, coach more in the game. And I know you've like, you've had Rusty on and you know, see, see like what him and Fletcher have been doing with the Magic Academy, which is brilliant. And yeah, it's encouraging coaches to, again, try and, try and explore that line of delivery because, because again, in a way, as a coach often, um, You know, you're, you're in control, you set up the exercise, you set up the drill and you tell them what to do and how to do it.

Dan: Where if you, if you create [00:51:00] games and structure within the games, as in laws and behaviors, 

Carl: you're out of 

Dan: control and, and the, the skill becomes what do you see 

Carl: and 

Dan: what do you ask? And, and that, that again, I mean, is a great way of coaching and something, again, that we're all trying to encourage and. Like I said, that was again, part of my, my philosophy with, with coaching the, the throwing would be being a close skill, going back to that.

Dan: Well, if, if I give a correction, I will break your flow, that classic don't think of a pink elephant. Yeah. So if I say, think about your posture, it's like, great, they're going to do that, but they're going to lose their rhythm and so on. So, so yeah. So it's like, right, how can I get them to perform that movement?

Dan: Yeah. 

Carl: Yeah. We 

Dan: actually. an exercise, a piece of equipment without getting them to think about the movement. 

Carl: Yes, I know some days they turn up [00:52:00] the training and I'm just like we're not messing around with situations. We're just, lads, just there's a ball, we'll go gameplay, you make the decisions, then give me the answers why it went wrong or how it went right.

Carl: We'll debrief it, go again, because. If we're standing there just throwing the ball consistently, I know I'm going to get nothing out of them. So sometimes it's easier to put them into a game situation and say, right, what are we going to do there? Why would we do that? Let's get on with it. If you've got them stood around chatting shit to them, they're going to lose interest in that.

Carl: And it's sometimes just let them play. Like the first time I picked him up, , I went to, I went to training for the first time. They never, , I met him, , I didn't know any of them by Adam, and it was a case of they're all dollying around in warm up, everything like that. I was like, right, every time you drop the ball, you're around the pitch.

Carl: And then they, and [00:53:00] they, they, they were like, well, what's going on here? And then that was it. They, they even started self policing it. I was like, I don't need to be involved now. I know that. And then we got on the pitch and I said, lads, I don't know what any of you can do. Let's just go play and let them play, let them play.

Carl: I. I was running along, I was running defense against 'em and stuff like that. Ball up all down, all of that and going in for turnovers. So I was winning turnovers and I probably must have won 30 or 30 plus turnovers in this gameplay situation over an hour session. And I, they were like, how are you so quick?

Carl: Why? How did you manage that? I was like, lads, because you are too slow and you're going up one at a time. This is easy pickings. Next session, that reduced to 20 turnovers session. After that, it reduced to 10. Session after that, it was down to five. Session after that, it was maybe one or two. I was like, lads, that bit's been solved now.

Carl: I don't need to teach you the rest of it. I'll teach you the intricacies as we go, but [00:54:00] you're now making sure you're securing that ball off. And they're like, Oh, right. Yeah. Now I know why you've done it. 

Dan: It's like, yeah. Like you say that 16 year old boys, they need, they need direction. They need guidelines, boundaries, don't they?

Dan: So, um, Um, yeah, you know, one day around behavior straight away. Um, and, and again, what, what have you done? You know, if you're going in for the ball, you've created a contest, you've created a challenge and then it's like, right, how can we smash the coach? How can we get there before, you know, and, and, and that's, and that's what we all crave, isn't it?

Dan: We create that competition. So, you know, in your way, you've created that and, and that's then created a focus without having to do. your classic static drills, your hip pads clear, going down and presenting and clearing over. So everything becomes more fluid because again, we're asking these young players to play what they see.

Dan: So if you are going to take it to like a technical drill, which [00:55:00] has got its place, because again, you're getting high reps, you're getting, getting, um, you know, that muscle memory. Uh, the key, the key is how, how, like say, how do you build that into, into the, uh, the fluidity of gameplay and then you get, you get those examples.

Dan: You get, you get those talking points. 

Carl: And the thing is, we're not on the pitch. We're not on the pit. We've got, we've got to pass that knowledge as much as we can over to them. And then they've got to deliver it during the game time. And that's the, as a pitch side coaching, you stand back and you think, Why have you done that?

Carl: And then you grab, I'll speak to him after, I'm like, lads, why did we make that decision? Then they're like, well, I've done this because this and this. I was like, that's fine. As long as I've got an answer and you understand why you made that decision, we've moved forward. It makes everything, it's allowing those lads to make decisions for themselves and understand why they've made that decision.

Carl: As a team, it makes everything so much easier. 

Dan: And [00:56:00] again, I think we've like, like say, we've. With how we're so comfortable communicating now is, it goes back to that. It's like, well, those young players, they don't know what they don't know. So if we can give them some context of good practice and what that looks like with some video clips and send out onto like, you know, your Facebooks, WhatsApp groups and whatever, that creates an image of, of what, what good looks like and what we're aspiring to achieve.

Dan: Then your conversations become a little bit more guided, don't they? Because that, that will. Okay. Yes. You might've made this decision. Thank you for clarifying what you did based on what does great look like, how do you do, what would you do differently? Um, and, and again, those, those coaches that, uh, maybe you've got like an office job and they've got time to sort of go and, um, get on YouTube and find a load of video clips, um, you know, is a great tool.

Dan: And that was, that was one of the conversations we had today was like in the twenties camp. [00:57:00] If you're working with players that have had very low rugby IQ because they've started later in their life. It's like, well, if we talk about developing leaders, their knowledge and experience is lower than the level they're playing at.

Dan: So we need to help give them that education first and guide them so that then they are, uh, they have a deeper understanding of the why that we're going to call these lineouts or these strike players or whatever it might be. So then on the pitch, they can, they can spread that knowledge and police that, you know, then over time it becomes a little bit more of an open, it becomes more of a collaboration.

Dan: Okay. Here's the opposition. This is what, what do you see? What should we do based, you know, you're the guys on the pitch. What's our strategy? What's our framework? And again, I think it's important. And as we're dealing with those 16 to 18, year olds, those brackets is, is that [00:58:00] that is factored into their, their, their development.

Carl: Yeah, a hundred percent. Cause they're really good lads, really proud of what they've done so far. And they're absorbed so much in such a short space of time. And as you said, you don't want that system overload and they just go into default and that's it, they shut down. Because as you said, that age group, it's easy, easy to lose interest, easy for them to call it a day.

Carl: And that's the last thing you would just want to want kids to play rugby and enjoy it. That's the main thing. 

Dan: Yeah, and that's it. It's their experience. So those that you might said that got that vacant look. It's like, well, they're just, their development might just take a fracture. Yeah, you know, and that's it.

Dan: That's, that's something that we're seeing through the Italian pathways that as we sort of make projections of like, okay, what's the, , performance markers of an 18 19 year old, a 20 year old, you know, when they go to the Rugby World Cup for the under [00:59:00] 20s, um, what we're finding is post World Cup is when we see a spike in their development and that's where guys then step into like a senior academies that we're all better taught.

Dan: Um, which again is that next level up, 

Carl: um, 

Dan: that, that season is when we see a real, a real sort of like kick on with their development. So maybe if they had more numbers, maybe if they started younger, that spike could happen to 20. And of course in England, you know, when I speak to people involved in the academies, that's, that's their answer.

Dan: It's like we have to make decisions on them so young. And that's often why they pick the big specimen and so on, because they need to know they've got that physical attributes and their view is for they can coach the skill after. So, , you know, that's the challenge. So for those nations with, , , low participation, they take a longer time span.

Dan: , and [01:00:00] often, you know, like say in Italy, they're looking at 22 year olds, 23 year olds, you know, , start as they evolve. Through the pathway for front row guys in England, they've, you know, they've, they're already in an academy on a, when they're playing, when they're playing, they're under 20. So 18, 19, the, it's, , , you know, decisions have got to be made on, on what they see there.

Dan: And then, and we know, you know, quite the frontal lobe's not developed till post 19, 20. And we're asking players, we're judging players on decision making in games. It's , you know, they're, they're still, they're still kids, so they, but those are the challenges. That's, that's what it takes for sport. Do, 

Carl: do you think that judgment is a little bit too early in England?

Carl: Like there is, , maybe in Italy, like you, you can't, , most people seem to get to 22, 23 and find like a dad strength. With is referenced previously on this pod. Do you, do you [01:01:00] think the, the focus. To make decisions so early in England, do you think players potentially peak earlier and that's why they don't last as long potentially or some miss the boat and then we're having to resort to using Dan Cole and Joe Marler as our pretty much first choice props?

Carl: Because we haven't got the other options at the minute. Is that something that's been a detriment to the England team at the minute? 

Dan: Um, There's a few things to unlock in there. So again, England have got the benefits of a big player pool. 

Carl: So 

Dan: the reality is, like I said, we're talking about elite sport.

Dan: We're talking about the one, two percenters. So, so when, when the pool's that big, they can make decisions. And, , again, for a lot of players, unfortunately, it's like they, they get to that, they get through the academy. Are they going to go get a fully professional academy? You know, they get to like 16, 16 to 18 [01:02:00] and that experience where, where the pyramids very wide, you know, to get onto that next level.

Dan: Yeah. Not, not many make it, you know, you're only looking at like 10 to 12 players, but Hey, what's it like in football? This is, this is elite. This is what we're talking about. This is elite sport. And we have to accept that. So what probably needs invested. Is the exits. And again, you know, from the, from the countries that I work with and so on, is that those players in, in the pathways that don't go on to, to the separatist Benettons or get picked up in France, the Italian pathway, they go into the, the professional leagues in Italy, which again, then starts to raise the standard there.

Dan: Now we're talking about almost like a generational cycle. of players to see a performance improvement. , and, but it takes as long as it takes [01:03:00] because you're governed by how many players you've got. So, , that, you know, England, a very wealthy union, as I say, you know, I've been fortunate to be coached by guys like Simon Hardy.

Carl: Um, 

Dan: you know, and, and the RFU took a decision to. Cut all their skill development coaches, and their view was that the clubs can pay for, for those coaches and, and the clubs can invest those skills. And, and again, what, what, what happens in sport is, is that again, it's almost like, you know, a generational cycle where you, you see, well, was that a positive move or was, or, you know, what, what are, what are we dealing with now?

Dan: Now, you know, um, Dan Cole, um. Um, he was an academy player, um, at Leicester when I was playing at Beverly Blues. And, um, he came over and he was applying his trade with, he was, yeah, he had, he had hair 

Carl: then as well, didn't he? 

Dan: Ah, yeah, he was, uh, like long locks. Long locks, [01:04:00] yeah. Um, and, and what a fantastic career.

Dan: So, yeah. Um, 

Carl: there's no shade on them. Like they, they're very good at what they do at the minute. Um, but is that our best option in front of us with This is 

Dan: where, but remember this is the, where the game's going. If you've got no platform, if you've got no platform, it is so pivotal to international rugby.

Dan: Um, the margins are so fine, you know, and let's remember, it's like, you know, everyone that says like, Oh, this player is playing great in the Premiership. Let's get him in. Let's get him in. Let's get him in. It's like, the step up from Premiership to International is colossal. So, and then we're talking about, as we say, about like, like physical development, you know, when you're a 23 year old and then you're, you're being put under the microscope at test level, 

Carl: in 

Dan: the front row is, is a massive, massive challenge.

Dan: So, , [01:05:00] I, I think, you know, in certain positions, like say in mature layer, everyone's talking now around playmakers, you know, the nines and tens, it's like getting to like 26 is about a good age where, Because you've got to have time in the saddle. And while you're in there, what's happening is you're seeing those pictures come at you so frequently 

Carl: that 

Dan: you're making decisions based on split seconds of what's coming at you.

Dan: And that's when you're almost then starting to develop that time on the ball and so on. So you can imagine in the premiership, you get to 26, you've had lots of exposure, lots of reps within that. And when you go to international before you begin, it's another level, 

Carl: another step up again. 

Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan: So, , yeah, I think for a lot of people, you know, there's a reason why there's obviously a lot more intelligent people, successful people in coaching in international levels, , that stick to this, this trial and [01:06:00] tested pathway. Yeah, just to reach the environment. Then take them out. So they've had a taste.

Dan: Now you go and show me that these are the markets you want to go and get there. They then come back in, they might get some time on the bench and, and you know, it builds that way. Now it's always been that way. Hasn't it? It's always been that way. But that's rugby, isn't it? 

Carl: Because it's been used forever.

Carl: Like we did some, you've then got like the bomb squad and now obviously Bill Beaumont wants to change that because it's, he thinks you've got too many subs and. He's probably, uh, well, he's, he's obviously got off there and then Raz he's pulled him apart in a response there, but he's, do you like with that as well?

Carl: So many things constantly change. And I understand why some of them do, but go back to Dan Cole and everything like that. Why we've obviously got Gengey was there very, very good player as [01:07:00] well. We've obviously lost Sinks to Toulon. Didn't have the greatest few seasons in Bristol. Probably, do you think he moved himself out the shop window slightly and has gone away to work on it to come back?

Carl: Or, and then you've got Ben Obano and stuff like that. And we've got plenty of very good players that have had that taste and been at the table, but we've had to resort back to the tried and tested. Cole and Marler pair up, which are brilliant. I'm big fans of it, don't get me wrong. But I don't know what, where's, where are we going to go after that?

Carl: Cause Marler might have a season left. And 

Dan: yeah, , I think what's great now is players are really taking ownership of their personal development and, you know, if Kyle Sinkler feels that, It's right for him to go overseas and really challenge himself, you know, top [01:08:00] 14. , that's only going to be a positive for him, you know, and he's going to learn some things about himself and be exposed to situations where he's got to evolve, he's got to adapt.

Dan: And that's only, that's going to be so healthy. If he chooses to return to play in England or if they changed the rules about selection, , again, it goes back to that time, that, that sort of that, that timeline, doesn't it? So if we've got these young props, these like early twenties and 25s and so on, well, as you, as we talk about that, developing that, that physical stretch or functional strength, , 

Carl: you 

Dan: know, at that level, , Do people start to come into their own in their late 20s?

Dan: So, so the Coles and the Marlers is like, you know, all credit to them. , Oh yeah. It's, it's, it's that now that's the standard. Now the standard. Now, if you're a younger player and you're in that system, your job is to get there, isn't it? To get there. And, and, and that's, that's what creates the beauty of the competition.

Dan: So, , I think we are seeing shifts in, you know, [01:09:00] tier one nations. around their recruitment policy, , and, and so on. So, , but again, you can't cheat time and, and the guys need exposure. They need good coaching. , and then they, they need, like I said, that time in the saddle to then learn how to, how to adapt in the moment.

Dan: And, , yeah, so, so yeah, that's, that's where we are.

Carl: It's been an absolute pleasure. , obviously you're a few hours behind me. I'm now sat at pretty much one o'clock in the morning here. , at some point my kids are probably going to wake up and wake me up again, but it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. And it's, , it's been a really nice change of pace to the pods, , to go about a slightly different way for your journey and how, how you've done it and, and how, how you go about business and world rugby actually shining the light on.

Carl: Emerging nations and obviously supporting that as well, which is really good to see that Those nations are starting to put put himself [01:10:00] in the window, obviously Do you do you feel that brazil? One last sort of prediction then do you think brazil are going to get themselves to the world cup? 

Dan: , I I think I think what's going to be great and they're going to encourage people When watch the world cup qualifiers, they're yeah, they're phenomenal great spectacle, you know, they really are and , the, you know, the, the special part of me is again, coming to these environments and the players are so hungry and driven to learn and, you know, this is, this is so big for them and their family and their community and, , you know, the, the, there's a, there's a deep emotional connection and pride about, about what they're doing and, , it's, it's going to be fantastic.

Dan: It's going to be, you know, a really, a really good watch. And I think probably. One final thing to say, and I think Portugal really, , sort of, , blazed a trail on this is that being a tier three, tier two, you know, developing nations that is, is [01:11:00] going, going in and putting in the standard structure of how we see the game played.

Dan: It's like, well, you don't have the athletes to do that. So let's get creative, let's find, let's find the Brazilian way, the Chilean way, the Uruguayan way, okay, the Spain, the Portugal way, and, and I think that like some of those games in, in the last World Cup were the most exciting, enjoyable games because you see, instead of seeing the classic, you know, the free pods, man out the back and punch rugby and box kick and so on, you saw teams moving the ball earlier in the pitch than they would normally do and it made a great spectacle, so, , Again, it's like, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to compete with the superpowers, you got to get creative and, , find your own way.

Dan: So, so yeah, so it's great. It's great fun, you know, , work with the guys as they're starting to discover that. Yeah. 

Carl: Yeah. I'm, I'm really looking forward to seeing Uruguay firsthand. So I'll go into Spain, Uruguay in November in Madrid. , I got Spain, [01:12:00] Fiji to go to, and then Spain, USA as well. So can't wait to see some sort of tier two support.

Carl: International rugby first hand as well because Uruguay have been They're just so exciting at times and they just it's literally kamikaze rugby. It's either you think What are you doing? And then it sort of starts paying off. It's brilliant. And then, and then you show the kids like, Oh, do you see that?

Carl: I'm like, yeah, just don't do that again. Cause you ain't going to manage it. But, 

Dan: but, but I see those, those nations that are really hot, dry climate and so on, you know, their pitches are hard and they, they've got such dynamic athletes and that's often then I say where they catch you out is they, they run the ball when you'd expect them to set up a phase or a kick or.

Dan: or something can, um, yeah, they're, they're, they're, they are, they're playing for their, their nation, their country, their, sorry, their, their family and everything can, , they're relentless. So yes, fantastic watch here. 

Carl: Yeah, it's going to be [01:13:00] amazing. So Dan, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on and thank you so much for finally getting this one in the, in the diary and diving in from Sao Paulo as well, mate.

Carl: , it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. 

Dan: Yeah, no, my pleasure, mate. 

Carl: Cheers.

 Well, that brings another episode of Rugby Through The League's podcast to an end. Just want to say a massive thank you to Dan Richmond for jumping on, , live. Live on set from, , Sao Paolo, Brazil. Obviously got some unbelievable knowledge out of, , that line out game. coaching techniques of how you can overcome players willingness to get involved into new methods.

But what a bloke, what a, what a rugby CV, what a bit of knowledge and it's great to see some really positive stuff being done by World Rugby. So hats off to them for doing that. for supporting the tier two, tier three and emerging nations. Next week, we, , we've got the Richmond Shire RUFC lads coming on as a, as I said, [01:14:00] we, had the schedule mixed up a little bit due with the grassroots stuff, but we've now got another grassroots club coming back on next week.

Up north this time, so slightly different to where we, , we normally sort of concentrate, but they've been, , sharing a bit on the tick tock and want to try and get Under the skin of what they do and where they've been. They've had a tough season last year, so it'd be really interesting to get on top of how this season's going and their big plans that they've got.

They're a really good bunch of lads as well. So it'd be a good laugh. Three of them coming on as well. So four way interviews, which should be good fun. Bit of banter, bit of a grassroots rugby again for everyone. So hopefully you guys join in for that one. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe, get involved in this one as well.

Cause Dan Richmond, absolute fountain of knowledge. for rugby line out scrum coaching, everything, all the bits that you need. Dan's also got an ebook, which I'll link out later , on the socials. So Dan's obviously got that if you need to reach out to, to support with him as well.

So great [01:15:00] bloke, top bloke and, , another great episode. So one last thing from me, thank you and goodbye.