Episode 26 - The Tom Martin Interview - From London to the Olympics with the All Blacks 7s

In this episode, Tom Martin shares his extensive journey in rugby, transitioning from a player to a performance analyst. He discusses his coaching experiences across various countries, the significant role of analytics in modern rugby, and the challenges posed by COVID-19. Tom reflects on the surreal experience of preparing for the Olympics and emphasizes the importance of mental health for athletes. He also explores the future of rugby analysis, highlighting the impact of automation and AI in the field. In this conversation, Tom discusses the integration of data analysis in rugby, emphasizing the importance of understanding player performance through contextual analysis. He highlights the significance of mental resilience in high-pressure situations and the role of coaching in building confidence and leadership among players. Tom also reflects on the pathways available in rugby development, the importance of decision-making, and the transition from sevens to future opportunities in his career.

Transcript

 [00:00:00] hello. , another episode of Rugby through the League's podcast. I just want to say thank you for everyone that's joined recently been jumping on the, on the socials and everything. Hopefully everyone's enjoyed the rugby return. Obviously we had a , Matt Merritt on, , done a, PWR special.

Obviously some great games for the first start of the season. So it looks like that's going to be one hell of a competition to, to keep an eye on as well. So everyone hopefully enjoyed that. Obviously I know it was a different type of, , one that we normally do, obviously Journo on slightly different way of, , playing football.

Understanding the game, but the game ticks in many different ways. So there's a whole point of this podcast is to understand all the ways it does. So this week, another one, again, we've gone for a performance analyst this time. So somebody that sits there and crunches the data, understands how and where [00:01:00] the game needs to be won and how How it can be won through different previous, previous pieces.

And we've got Tom Martin on. So all black sevens analysis for the last eight seasons, two Olympic cycles, obviously done the interview with him now. And what a, what a bloke, what a knowledge of the game, a love for the game. He's been around for a while. Started in England, ended up following the World Cup around in 2003, then ended up back over in New Zealand and for the last 20 odd years.

And. Hasn't left, he loves the game, understands the game, plays, he's played at 10 when he was, uh, as he, when he was playing, so he understands how it ticks, um, and now is able to, fully involved in the, in all of the understanding of the All Black 7s and, Olympic cycles.

And obviously we talked about how covid sort of mixed everything up a little bit as well. So that was quite interesting to understand that. So really top bloke. It's been around the [00:02:00] game for a while now. Come across some very, very top level players as well over in New Zealand and was able to articulate the game and how the game should be played and how The analysis actually helps everyone else tick and the emphasis now on the mental side of the game.

And it was really interesting to understand those bits from behind the scenes as well. It's easy to see everything on the pitch and from the coaches and the, uh, director of rugby's, but there is, uh, somebody's actually got to supply them with the data and how that gets to them as well. So really good top, top bloke, really, really decent one as well.

It was really early doors for him, but really late night for me, but a hundred percent worth Well, another great interview with a great guest. Let's, uh, let's get on with it.

This week, as mentioned, we've got Tom Martin on Tom's in a completely different time zone to me. This is what's half seven in the morning for you, Tom, as we're recording this and about half eight at night for me, you're a day [00:03:00] ahead. So it's like talking into the future. It's a, it's one of them, but Tom.

Really appreciate your time for jumping on, mate. , as I mentioned in the little, at the end of the last pod, your current role was All Blacks Sevens performance analyst. Is that correct? Yeah. So the analyst then moved into sort of strategy, I suppose. Yeah. Nice. So obviously for, for those that don't know you, can you do an intro to, for what you've done, where you've been, your rugby journey and how you sort of ended up in the role you're doing now?

Yeah. Cool. Well, hey, look, , Thanks for having me on. , I said before, it's, , it's my first podcast. So, so thanks for having me. And, , looking forward to sort of sharing some stories and, , helping viewers or listeners hear about what happens probably behind the scenes. , something we talk about is we're probably the team behind the team that just helps them with, with information and then allowing people to make, , informed decisions.

But I suppose my, my rugby journey is, is I've probably been a little bit of a gypsy the last sort of 20 years, sort of [00:04:00] globetrotting around the world. But, , I was introduced to rugby, I suppose, like most, most rugby people through my, through my dad. So he was obviously an avid rugby man, , played for a team called Old Midonians, but they've rebranded into a team called Chiswick Rugby.

So spent a bit of time down there. , sort of next to St. Paul's, , school there, , in Barnes. So, yeah, sort of grew up in around there, , played mini rugby at London Scottish of all places. So, , that's where I got my introduction, introduction to, to rugby. And then I sort of moved out of rugby for a little bit of time and got myself into some judo and a few other different sports before I went to secondary school and, , sort of picked up the game again and I sort of, yeah.

13, 14, I suppose, , and then played all through my time at school, , lucky enough to make the first 15 as a, as a, as a fifth year. So I think that's year 11 of what people call it these days. , so yeah, I had a good three years playing first [00:05:00] 15. , the school I went to was, , Gunnersbury, Gunnersbury school, just, , there in Brentford, , just along the right there, just close to Brentford football stadium as it was back then, , Griffin Park, but yeah, since it's been, , yeah, since it's been knocked down now, but, , obviously grew up around there as well.

So it was, it was nice and local for me. , And then I headed off to a university. So I was lucky enough to get a spot at St. Mary's university in, in Strawberry Hill or Twickenham. So I did a four year teaching degree there, , which was, which was great fun. , probably at the time of my life, like, like most people do when they go to university and, , , played for the university, played for the college team.

And, , I played for a sort of junior club when I was at university called Grasshoppers, just up there on Gillete Corner. Those that sort of know, , Isleworth and Brentford. So I played there for sort of three years. And then when I left university in 2000, , I shifted across to, I started playing at London Welsh.

So I started in their sort of academy. Sort of second team and worked my way up. [00:06:00] So I had two years there again, had another great time as a newly qualified teacher. So it was sort of learning my craft, , teaching at a school called, , Isleworth and Syme, which was again, sort of local, , comprehensive school, but sort of learned, , learned my craft there and obviously got all my papers done to be a qualified teacher.

And then from there, I thought, well, if this is teaching, I reckon I'm done. There was quite, quite a challenging time for me really, just sort of. Learning how to, , deal with a multitude of different sort of scenarios that you don't necessarily get a university with. , you know, students having some pretty challenging backgrounds with, , a whole lot of, whole lot of issues that, that come with, you know, different social dynamics as well, you know, and demographic too, you know.

So, , so I picked up a job with the RFU. doing some coach development work. , so I did that for about about five months. They only got a small amount of funding and I did it through Middlesex County Rugby as well. , so my former coach, , [00:07:00] actually asked if I was available. So I played sort of under 17, 19s, 21s, bit of senior County Rugby too.

So Middlesex was my County, so I enjoyed my time with them as well. What position did you play Tom? So I played number 10. So lots of catching and passing and kicking, I suppose. Not too much defense. Leaving that for everyone else to deal with. So yeah, I did that for about five months, but part of that was linking in with Brunel University, helping all their, you know, First and second year sort of PE students and sport science students get through their, their coaching level one through the RFU.

So that was, , that was a really good time, actually, sort of linking in with local schools, getting some of these. We had a guy called John Petiramidis who, End up with playing at Harlequins and as a friend of mine from St Marys, he [00:08:00] did quite a bit of coaching, which was good for him. , so he has some, some good guys that could come in and deliver to the students to sort of grow the game and they're getting their coaching levels as well.

So, , and they got a little bit of cash on the side, which probably helped him as you know, it's like being a student when you don't have a lot of money, trying to pay rent and stuff like that. , so yeah, I say, and I did a little bit of coaching with that Brunel first 15, the college side. which was sort of part of it.

, and then due to funding and things like that, the sort of role disestablished, which, which was, I suppose, the way of the world some days. But then I picked up a job at a British school in Holland. So 2003, I shifted over to, , a place called Leiden, which is, I suppose it's the university town in Holland.

So it's about, about an hour drive from Amsterdam. So you fly into Schiphol. Which is the airport and then you sort of go left to Amsterdam or right to Leiden. So Leiden is probably like Amsterdam, but without the, without the, the red lights, you know, like it's a [00:09:00] quite, quite a cool little city. So I was there for about 10 months and the opportunity arose because My old first team coach, a guy called Ian Christodiak, he'd had a opportunity gang coach at San Diego University.

So they were just looking for someone to, to cover the, cover the void while he did that. So it was actually a great fit from finishing with the RFU to picking up that job for, for 10 months, coaching the first team, sort of driving the rugby program to what was already there. So sort of helping staff, , have confidence in coaching the game, I suppose, , and plays like that was 2003.

Then was there much of a sort of a game to Holland then was that quite big or was that still very grassroot is there was they had a, they had a national side, they had four district teams and they had, yeah. in the premier comp, which was sort of Holland wide. There's about 12 teams. Wow. , so I played for a team called, , DIOK.

, so DIOK were quite [00:10:00] an interesting team, a great bunch of lads. There was a guy called Robert Brewers, who was the coach. He was a former number seven for, for Holland and obviously quite highly regarded in terms of his ability to play the game. But yeah, he was the, he was the coach. And ironically, But I don't know if this is true because I never checked it, but they were in the Guinness Book of Records for winning a domestic comp 10 years in a row, , so that was their claim to fame apparently.

So I, I took that as read and just, just ran with it. So, , I probably need to check that off after, after making such a bold statement, you know, well, if they were claiming it, you got to take it. That's the end of their problem, not yours. Yeah, exactly. , so I had a sort of great season there with them and had an opportunity to play at the Amsterdam Sevens, the international sevens there, which was great fun.

And then my time there finished in, , sort of the end of that year, which was sort of about August time. So 2003, I was like, what am I going to do now? , do I want to stay in the UK [00:11:00] anymore? I thought, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm going to go to Australia. Follow the World Cup around. So packed a bag, just a backpack and a little.

little sort of hand luggage bag and I thought I'll have a, so I got my visa for Australia and I got my visa for New Zealand at the same time. New Zealand give you 12 months to get to New Zealand after you've been sort of given the visa. So I thought I'll do a year in Aussie and then a year in New Zealand and then I'll probably just come home.

So here we are, 20 years later, I'm still in New Zealand, but, , yeah, follow the world. Did you ever get the visa extended or. Did you just never, just never leave, just not 100 percent legit, like this could completely undo all of it. No, I wasn't quite. Yeah. But, , yeah, I, , yes, I followed the world cup around, , which was like, it was unbelievable, you know, England winning it as well, which was probably the icing on the cake, you know, like it was such [00:12:00] a good atmosphere around Sydney and then.

Obviously the World Cup finished and had a new year and then thought, well, what am I going to do from January? So, I, , did a little bit of coaching. I got in touch with the Randwick Rugby Club because I was living in a little suburb called Maroubra, which is just up from Coogee Beach. So, for those that know, sort of, Sort of beaches around sort of Bondi coming back out then.

Okay. That was a little py I stated. But Maruba is obviously, , near Redfern, which is sort of, , south Sydney Rabbitohs country for those that follow the, the Rugby league or the NRL and obviously the finer was yesterday. So yeah, stayed there, did a bit of coaching at Randwick, , with their under twenties team.

Then I was obviously teaching at a school called, . Cranbrook school. So I was like there, , there's a guy called Ian Potts there, who was the director of rugby at English fella. So I sort of came in to support him around coaching the first 15, did a little bit with the second team and just sort of supported the flagship [00:13:00] teams like the under 14s and under 15s as well.

, and just had a little pathway running there. So yeah, I had a great time, played at Randwick as well, like sort of played through the grades. I said, I was only there a season, so. I was probably up and down the grades, like a, like a yo-yo. But I was more, more around just playing rugby and , 'cause my, actually my first game, it was Anzac weekend.

So Anzac Weekend is, , Australia, New Zealand Army Corps. And that's a sort of, it's a bit like Remembrance Sunday, I suppose. Okay. , so it's, it's a weekend of, of, let's say, celebrating but recognizing those that have gone and. given the ultimate sacrifice. So we were playing southern districts and I've been to a few trainings.

So I started in the six at nine o'clock in the morning, played 40 minutes, got pulled off a halftime, started with the fifths at say 1030, played a half of them, got pulled off, went fourth, third, seconds. What did I play seconds? I can't remember, but I had about, I don't know, heaps of rugby. [00:14:00] Beautiful Sydney day.

Rode about. The guy's like, what do you reckon? I was like, yeah, this, this is pretty good because you could just play loads of rugby and have some fun and get to the beach and drink some beers and just, just enjoy what Sydney was, you know? Yeah, perfect. And then sort of later on in the year when the school was sort of packed up, I was thinking right, I need to sort of shift myself off to New Zealand and get myself moving there.

And I was a, I suppose being young, you sort of chance your arm a wee bit. So there was a, there was a job at South Canterbury Rugby, , which is a provincial union here in New Zealand. And it was their head coaching job was available. So, so I put an application for it. I got for it. And the CEO rang me, a guy called Paul Treves, who's actually still a good friend of mine now, actually.

He rang me and said, mate, you're dreaming, but we've got a, we've got like a coach development role for you, which we think will be a good fit for you. Perfect. Yeah. Brilliant. I was like wicked. So I went across, worked for South Canterbury for about four months, a little [00:15:00] township called Timaru, played for Timaru Old boys and I was having a great time down there doing a bit with South Canterbury rugby and do some coaching there as well.

And off that, that helped me get to, , mid Canterbury rugby, which is about 80k up the highway towards Christchurch. So from there, worked for mid Canterbury, worked with the Heartland team, which is, , sort of, sort of trying to describe what level that would be, sort of in the UK. It's almost like a county 15, you know what I mean?

So it's not fully professional, but guys would get sort of 150 a game. They'd work all week, but most of them were, you know, farm types, you know, shearers and, , you know, driving combine harvesters and things like that. So like good crew, a few of the boys came across the UK. A lot of them went to Scotland, played for Jed Forest up there, , and got sort of a solid sort of contract out of that.

And obviously had a great time too. So that really sort of. Help me get into the, into the coaching [00:16:00] side of things, , because mid Canterbury falls under that sort of Canterbury Crusader umbrella. I've had some really good opportunity up there. There's a couple of RDOs there called Lee Golding and Dave Perrin, who really looked after me.

So the All Blacks used to have certain clinics down there, like. Mike Cron's base there. He's now the Australia coach. He was sort of running front row clinics and stuff like that. So I'd get up and just sort of sit and listen and just be in awe of it. And my first day around, Oh, I'm not even around to just try and suck in as much of the knowledge that was being thrown around.

Exactly. I mean, this was sort of 2000, 2005, 2006. So just as they were sort of launching into that seven World Cup. And then I was invited along to coach at the sort of Crusader under 18 schools. So it was sort of, you know, I was like, this is, this is great, you know, do some coaching and the top is four, four trial teams.

So what's that? [00:17:00] probably top 100 guys from the region. And, , funnily enough, I mean, these guys will never remember who I am, but for my week, we had, , we had Owen Franks at tighthead prop and Colin Slade at number 10. So, you know, the types of quality players that were kicking around then I think Ryan Crotty was there as well.

, but they will, you know, two years later, they were playing in camp for the Canterbury team. So yeah, it was really opened my eyes to, you know, New Zealand rugby around, they've got their sort of pathways and selections, right? So if you come to sort of Crusader schools, you're going to be into Canterbury and the talent ID part's really good because each provincial union has a group of RDOs that get around the schools that, , get their eyes across a lot of players.

And I suppose New Zealand rugby's biggest strength is probably also its biggest weakness. You know, they've got a lot of top players come from very small. rural regions, but the biggest challenge is, is obviously the finance, you know, they don't have the big budgets like, like France and Japan and places like that.

[00:18:00] But, , so guys don't necessarily get missed so much because in your region, so like Sam Canes from Reparoa, , which is a very small town in, , The Bay are plenty, but there's enough people out there knowing where he was. Yeah. That know who he was. Like Dan Carter's a good example at Elsmere college, you know, then was scholarship to Christchurch boys.

You know, so there's a lot of good volunteers, you know, so lots of good people that there's not necess lots of, yeah. There's just know, and there's not lots of paid roles in, in New Zealand. Lots of good people that love the game and, you know, can see a good rugby player when they see one, you know, they just go, he's, he's obviously very good.

I know, I know the right people to call as well, that probably helps, , to make sure that the door is opened at the right time, rather than people just, over, the pathway's clear by the sounds of it, if you've got a school system that's being picked up and everything. The rest, it's not just England, there's other places as well.

School and other set systems across the [00:19:00] world, but a little bit unclear and it's got certain bits, but by the Sounds a bit, New Zealand have pretty much got that nailed. Is that fair to say from what you've seen as well? They've certainly got that talent ID part right, you know, just in terms of the regions as well, identifying players, knowing where they're at.

And certainly when I was at mid Canterbury, I obviously had that. some good discussions with, with Canterbury at the time, a guy Matt Sexton was the academy manager who's now, , he's sort of the under 20s campaign manager now, former hooker for Canterbury Crusaders. I remember just saying to him, look, you know, if we've got guys that we think are good enough, and I'm not saying I'm going to send everybody, but there's the odd one or two that went up there.

So there's a guy called Matt Thatcher, you end up, playing full back for Canterbury and , , so that was, that was good from our region. We can just, we're not expecting anything back down the highway. We just want to make sure that, you know, the region and Canterbury is strong, you know? Yeah. , so that, that took me to, what was that, to the end of 2006, you know?

Okay. Worked with some really good players, certainly [00:20:00] in the local region with Mid Canterbury. , and I suppose setting the scene down there was my first year, we had a couple of coaches who were really good, but they'd gone and got a lot of, , lone players and guys from out of the region to come and play.

So the following year, myself and the CEO, a guy called Pete McGregor, we were like, we really need to reward people living in Ashburton and actually want to play for Mid Canterbury. If you've born and bred here. let's pick them. Now, if there's a real, , what's the word? Ringer. There's a real like, , we're really sure in a certain position that we might go shopping, but generally we should back our skills as coaches to help them be better.

, and that sort of, that was then my first introduction into sort of sports performance or sports analytics. So we thought if we're going to try them, Be, be really good and help players be better, then let's buy some software. So we bought, , sports tech back [00:21:00] then, which is the, which is now what sports code or huddle sports code is now.

So, , so we bought that, , And a guy called Jason Healy was the sales rep. Now, Jason Healy is now the head of platforms and technology for New Zealand rugby. , and he's been a great support of mine for my time in sevens. So meeting him then was, didn't really think anything of it, but what me, or whether the two coach that time there was.

Trevor Boxer and Wayne Foxcroft, it was like, well, we need to get some really good examples of what good looks like. So if we talk about, I don't know, a midfield scrum in our own 22 and we need to exit, well, what does good look like? And we just went and found clips of what good was, never thought of numbers or anything like that.

We're always thinking how we can get players to understand what, what, what good is. , and I was obviously coaching the under twenties team, which just sort of fed through to that. Heartland team. And there's also a development side as well. So yeah, yeah, we had some [00:22:00] really good fun just like trialing things and trying to be innovative and trying to be creative.

, and then I've got all my residents here on my papers through then. , and I thought, what's my next move? And ironically, I was, There's always every year, New Zealand Rugby ran a sort of rugby development conference or a sort of coaching conference up in a place called Palmerston North, which is about 150 K north of Wellington.

So, yeah, so I got flown up and they sort of helped people get there because they wanted. Good representation from around the country. So got there and was chatting to a few of the Wellington guys. So Wellington was quite unique back then. They had 15 clubs and 15 RDOs in each club. So with your club, you had X amount of secondary schools, but then part of your job was then working for the union, but also working for your club.

So the club was getting benefit from a sort of paid employee, but the union again. The benefit of [00:23:00] more eyes around all the schools. Yeah, brilliant. So, , I, I was chatting to a guy called Rick Futterow. He's actually the academy manager in Wellington now, just through over a beer. And I was like, mate, I'm looking to try and get out of Ashburton much.

It's a great spot. It's rural New Zealand, and I probably want to get to a big city, you know, going from sort of London, Amsterdam, Sydney, Timaru Ashburton, she was , interesting times. To the back of nowhere is probably a bit of a change of pace, yeah. Exactly, so, managed to, he teamed me up with a guy called Scott Crichton, who was , a former, former prop for Wellington, and former All Black as well, and went on their Cavaliers tour in 83.

So, he was a good sort of , ally I suppose to get me to Wellington. , and I linked him with a club called Western Suburbs. So Got to Wellington and sort of my coaching journey continued. I still played, so I played for Western suburbs, , doing all that sort of talent ID for Wellington. And [00:24:00] then over my 10 years in Wellington, I'd obviously, I did things like the Wellington under twenties was under 21s back then.

Then it moved to Wellington twenties, did Wellington sevens, did the development side. , and the other person that was involved at the club was a guy called Alam Irmin. So he, he just come back from Japan. And he was the Lions coach in 2007 and then in 2008 he transitioned into the academy coach. So Alain was currently coaching in the US.

I think he's a bit doing a bit with the Eagles as well, but he was a really good sort of, , helper for me as well. I suppose like Scott Crichton. , so when he moved into the Academy space, he was speaking to Rick Futterow, who was an RDO like me at the time, said, Oh, I'm trying to find someone that can do some video analysis.

So Rick's like, Oh, you should give, Give Tom a call because he's done a bit of that. So yeah, Alama, because he was Western suburbs as well. So we're at the same club. He [00:25:00] was like, he was like, well, mate, what do you reckon? And I was like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do it. But very sort of not really sure what I was signing up for, but essentially it was then.

Doing some filming with the Academy boys, but then also cutting it up in terms of, again, what could look like without necessarily having any of the numbers that are associated with it. So well, a couple of courses got up skill and that sort of thing. , so did two years of that, which was, which was great.

And then a guy, Alistair Rogers became the All Blacks analyst and he moved away from Verisco, which was the analysis software, sort of. year 2007, eight, and we moved in sort of sports code took over. , so he did, he was with the All Blacks through till 2015 and he was also a Western Suburbs guy as well.

So got to meet him a few times and he's been with the Fiji Druid and the blues. He's done quite a lot of coaching since leaving the All Blacks. , so yeah, did [00:26:00] two years with them and was like, Alarma got a roll with the Hurricanes, so I was like, well, that's, that's that done. And I went and did, Western Suburbs sort of, , fell out the leagues just through some clerical errors around registration of players.

And they dropped into the second div and then the club sort of struggled to get back up again, but they still run an under 85s team and they've got a really strong junior club as well. But it's a shame they sort of fell over in the end. And I finished with them. 2009 as well and then I think it was 2011 they sort of, sort of fell over really, which was a real shame, , because they're a good club, a lot of good players.

So I moved to a club called Northern United, , and a place called Porirura, which is a sort of city north of Wellington. I was there for two years as premier coach, but I was still doing a bit of work for the union. So it was all sort of intertwining, like I was saying before, you know, biggest strengths, your biggest weakness, you know, so did some good jobs for Wellington and coaching [00:27:00] premier rugby, but there wasn't a lot of budget flying around, which, which was fine.

I wasn't necessarily looking for that. It was more. It's rugby, isn't it? There's not much of a budget that has potentially why the game's not grown as much as it should. It's always been run on a shoestring. , across the world and it's a game we love, but it could be so much further along if we could somehow open someone's purse strings or run it properly.

Yeah, exactly. , but you know, you can sort of pick up some good jobs in New Zealand, , not necessarily get paid for it, but people do it because A, they love it and you're dealing with some, some great footballers as well. Yeah. So yeah, I did North for a couple of years, then I, I jumped across and did a year at Petone Rugby Club.

, and then sort of 2013, , Alarmrad got back in touch saying, Oh, look, we're trying to get a Hurricanes development team up and running. And I was wondering if you're interested to come and do some analysis work. And I was like, yeah, I reckon I could probably do that. So, , [00:28:00] but then from probably a selfish point of view, it's like, I can learn, , sports code, I can sort of get up to date, understand a little bit more.

, Jason Healy had just been appointed as the, , head of performance analysis at NZR, who was obviously the sales rep from 2005, 2006, so reconnected with him. , Dan Cron was the analyst at the Hurricanes at the time with another guy called Jason Ross, who's still there, who Dan Cron's now doing some coaching with the, with the Black Ferns 15s, but he's, he's the son of Mike Cron, you know, so well versed in, in what's going on.

So had a lot of good times there doing the sort of development stuff, learning the ropes. And then I, I was doing some stuff, , Just game days for the hurricane. So I've just walked the sideline. , so Richard Watt was the forwards coach. And obviously Dan was the scrum coach, so I was just getting scrums and line outs from the other side of the broadcast.

Okay. So it's [00:29:00] the best seat in the house. So for about, I dunno, four or five years, I just, , home games. I just walked the sideline with my camera and yeah. And just knowing that I'm adding value and then work with the development side under 20, sort of get immersed in it, but still had a part-time role with NZR, , sorry, with Wellington

yeah, with Wellington Rugby. , I was doing some study as well and doing a bit of relief teaching at Wellington College. So I was sort of making the best of a bad job really. , it sort of helped me understand, you know, the in depths of, of the analytics and how it can actually inform decision making. , so then Dan helped me get a job with, with the Manawatu Rugby Union with the turbos in the NPC.

, so that was great. I think people say to me, your biggest strength is cause you've done quite a lot of coaching, , you know, various levels at club, , at representative and, and even NPC level, you, you just sort of, you can sort of second guess what a coach would want or want to know, or how can the coding [00:30:00] reflect what they'd need to be looking at to help them for their training week the following week.

So yeah, just sort of immersed in that, got up skilled, , did a couple of years with Manawatu and then in 2017. Clark Laidlaw was appointed as the sevens coach. He was still, , tied up with London Irish, so he couldn't get back until, , I think it was till the July, maybe. So I came aboard in the January of 2017 thinking that, I'll only get six months, but the reason I got pushed to seven is I've done three years with New Zealand schools and a couple of years sort of resourcing in the under 20s program, just around, , like any trial weekend or, or sort of camps, it's sort of, Running a bit of cable, getting some footage and then feeding to the coaches around each positional area.

So like, there's always scrums and line outs and they're getting the top. I mean, I did some halfback stuff one year and there's probably about six halfbacks. [00:31:00] So I just wanted some individual, , skill sessions on them and then they could start making decisions on who's one and who's six and who's three.

You know what I mean? So you can get your rankings right. Certainly around the profiling of how you then want to play the game. So that was another good sort of learning really for me around, , analysis side of things of how obviously how important it is, you know? , so yeah, started in sevens, , did my sort of six months, wasn't sure what was happening and then.

Clark was sort of like, well, maybe you want to sign on another one more year through to 2018 is the end of the season, which culminated in the rugby world cup in San Francisco. So I was like, yeah, yeah. I can probably do that. So, so I signed another year. , and then after that, I then re signed through to, Tokyo Olympics, but then obviously COVID hit and there was a whole lot of, you know, like the rest of the world, there was some difficult times and, , quite a few of us, , had three months of unpaid leave.

They just said, well, we just can't really afford doing [00:32:00] which was, you know, which was fair. , So I picked up some, again, picked up some teaching work, picked up some coaching work, got back to North and back into Wellington because the country had shut down. And, , then we obviously came out the back of that.

, and we were obviously trying to prepare for an Olympics, which was, which was a, it was a challenge, but it was also. That must have been a really mad experience trying to prepare. Preparing for an Olympics, then it getting on hold, and then even up to the day of the actual Olympics, it didn't seem like it was going to be on either, did it?

It was like, is it going to happen? So you could have like literally got there and then game over it again. That must have been such a weird piece to work on. I know these athletes, they're all, Prime and their top, but like to analyze everything up to that point, then it stops, then it starts again. And then there's a big gap of you don't actually know what they've done for that period.

So your analysis could [00:33:00] be completely out of the window because of a one year break of nobody seeing anything. So how did you manage around that? Cause that must've been really, really odd to deal with. It was, , , the challenge for. Us in New Zealand was, you couldn't get in and you couldn't get, we could get out, you couldn't get back in.

So, , when the, when the rest of the world sort of started up again in that sort of 20, I think it was 21, 22, the end of sort of 21 after the Olympics, it was, we were having to manufacture quite a lot of stuff. So, , trying to get teams in, you know, get a few invitational teams going. , we ran a Red Bull Ignite, which was good, , sort of With the next sort of crop of players coming through, but it was a, it was a challenging time because the season of sort of 1920, we'd just come back from Vancouver.

Yeah. And that was the sort of year of, and then COVID hit in that sort of April time, I think it was. Yeah, we were, we were, I think, our end. Yeah. I think March hit. [00:34:00] That's crazy. it was madness really because we were like where everything's just stopped and we were in such a good spot and you know we'd work quite hard on a few different strategies here and there and then sort of go on hold for a year and other teams just as you say moving on and developing just like we were as well people didn't really know what what was going to happen or what it was going to be like but playing in stadiums with no no fans and stuff that was was certainly different as well.

, but , managing to get there and get a silver was, was awesome. But straight afterwards, it was a very, it's a very odd feeling because if you're in a hundred meters, you're on the line and everyone goes at the same time and you win a gold, win a silver, win a bronze. But we, we lost and won a silver.

That makes sense. So it's just a Like, mate, it's, don't get me wrong, I'm hugely proud of the group, but it's a very sort of surreal feeling straight after, it's like we should be really happy here, well we [00:35:00] are, but geez, you know, it's just giving up, yeah, so, you know, having that, and working through that, and we had some wonderful people around, the mental skills, , part of the game, a guy called David Galbraith, who's sort of world renowned.

He's worked with Japan, worked with the Highlanders, done a lot of individual sports. He was, he was really good in that sort of time through COVID around making sure guys were well connected and, , working through different sort of, what different strategies they needed to get themselves through that.

Yeah. , which was hugely important because some guys, you know, If you've got a lot of time to think and you're so isolated and there's only you at home or yes, there's quite a lot to unpack there. And I think there's still some sort of symptoms coming in society now off the back of COVID. , certainly kids these days on, on screens and feeling anxious, going to crowded places and things like that.

So that's obviously a sort of by product of that, but I think [00:36:00] understanding that. You know, certainly the young players we have coming in, , in good spot, you know, , so, but yeah, it was a, it was a tricky time, , like, like it was for everybody, but, , we sort of had to dust ourselves down and, and, and get going again.

, but the, the, the crazy thing was we, we got back and we obviously had to isolate for two weeks and then we sort of came out the. And then the country went into a countrywide lockdown again. So we had another probably month of, of lockdowns in New Zealand. So it was, yeah, I mean, for some of the players, it was probably a challenging time, certainly for the, the traveling reserves, because we got to Tokyo, let's say it was 10 days or two weeks before something like that, they were in lockdown.

Then they fly back to New Zealand, lockdown, so that's now a month already, out for two days, another month, and one of the boys, , was up in Auckland, Caleb Clarke, he was in Auckland, he had another two or three, , [00:37:00] probably another two months of lockdowns in Auckland, or on and offs, you know, like it was sort of, for a couple of days on out, we're back in the lockdown again, so there was, you know, some Challenging times for the players around that sort of timings of, of lockdowns and can't go anywhere and you need to stay local and that sort of thing.

So, , because that also then impacted onto the next cycle as well for the next, for the Paris Olympics, didn't it? Because it did, yeah. I was basically a year late. So it was, it sort of shortened your window and then it sort of carried out. Do you reckon you probably lost another six months on top? Do you think you only really had two and a half years?

To sort of prep for this Olympic cycle, rather than a four, or? , yeah, I think the, I'll say the challenge or the difference, when the series started up again, obviously us, Fiji and Samoa didn't get there, but teams like Germany and, , Uruguay and teams like that could come in, which was great for the, Those teams to [00:38:00] actually get it up and running.

, but then we obviously came out of lockdown in the February of 22. So the year was, the year was condensed and busy and long tours just because of New Zealand's rules and their sort of cautiousness around it was if you had it, then you couldn't leave. So we decided that we'd go to Fiji because you know, Fiji didn't really have any COVID at the time.

We could do some training camps there. Played against Fiji a few times. And then we could, , get off to the Singapore and Vancouver legs of that World Series of that year. So we missed, , the two Dubai legs and the two that were in Spain. I think it was Seville and, , Is it Sevilla and Madrid, I think?

Probably, yeah. I think Spain had a couple, yeah. So there was always four tournaments that we hadn't got to, which is, you know, six games each tournament, so 18, 20 games that we'd missed out on, but we were sort of manufacturing stuff back here, , as we, as we had to, to [00:39:00] sort of find ways to keep guys playing and keep developing their skills and their understanding.

, and then that year was another big year because he had a Commonwealth Games and a World Cup as well. So the Commonwealth Games were in Birmingham, and then the World Cup was in South Africa. That year, Hong Kong had been cancelled, but the start of the 22 23 season, World Rugby put, so straight off the World Cup, which was in the September, Hong Kong was then again in the October.

So we bought nothing about in November. So we had a month off straight back on the series again. So it went Hong Kong, then Dubai, Cape town. So we had 11 tournaments that year. , yeah, Christ. So we were lucky to win the series that year, but it was a lot of, a lot of time away, very condensed, especially off the back of the 22 season.

, so working through all of that and I suppose with the, , [00:40:00] improvement of technology, we would then be able to automate quite a lot of the information that we needed, which sort of freed me up. They're not necessarily being doing loads of coding or loads of, , sort of data collection. It was like, that's all now sitting in the cloud.

We can now start accessing that way more easily and just make the flow and the sort of stream of information way more concise. , and then we had a huge off season last year off the back of probably two years of, Big trips, lots of competition. Guys had to get their bodies fixed, you know, like those guys that were, you know, battling with a few bits.

So actually being able to stop and have an extended break was really good. And then we obviously had a bit of a change in personnel leading into this year with, with Clark moving off to the Hurricanes and then Tomasi stepping up to head coach and then new captain, new leadership. So there's a few moving parts to all of that as well.

, [00:41:00] but we're in a good spot rolling into. into Paris winning sort of Hong Kong and Singapore. So, , but yeah, it's, it's been a, you know, eight seasons is, is, is a long time. I've had some fun with it and I suppose the growth of the program over that time has, has been significant as well. And I suppose that's sort of my rugby journey to date, I suppose quite a lot of, a lot of talking from me that side, Brilliant.

No, it's obviously, it's great to. To understand, obviously the analysis piece is what you, what you currently done, but obviously there is a journey to that point. And yes, obviously I'm just being able to analyze the game. You must have obviously been able to play and you've worked with people that would be able to.

So have you sort of gathered all of that knowledge from multiple people and just sort of mashed it together and thought, this is the best way for me to analyze the game, or this is how, can you, can you sort of analyze in different views? So you'd say, Oh, actually, I know. This coach is very similar to [00:42:00] this coach.

He would like it like this, or they, she would like it like this because they've got this sort of. understanding or have you just got, this is how the model is fixed and this is how we present it or is there ways you can adapt it based on your knowledge of previous experiences? Yeah, it's probably a sort of two pronged attack because most coaches I work with, they're probably all visual learners like most rugby players, you know, they like to sit and watch and just get a feel so Yeah, it's something we do with the Footage is we can sort of, we call it, , databasing so we can get, for example, if you're a defense coach, we can, you're with the Hurricanes and you're playing the Highlanders next week, we can give you all the Highlanders attack lineouts from the last three games.

So you can then start to see. So in their own 22, what do they do? How do they set up their [00:43:00] exits? 22 to 22. What sorts of line? And again, six men, five men. And then when they get into the attack in 22 teams are sort of going full line outs, getting a bit of a drive on and then looking for a bit more of a power sort of pick and go type game.

Yeah. , so as I understand different coaches, you can start to give them certain things around numbers and information that can help them. confirm generally what they know. And I think where analysis sits at the moment is coaches will watch the game and afterwards they'll, they'll look at the footage and the numbers and it'll almost confirm what they've seen.

, but with the automated system we've now got, it's almost like, If coaches are looking to review preview, they can almost self resource themselves now. So I'm not saying that the, the role of the analyst is, is, is not important or it's going to finish up. But I think with the, with the improvements of AI and this machine learning, [00:44:00] having someone that can interpret the information And then present it to improve or help a decision making is probably going to be where I think the analysis space is going to end up because you don't necessarily need to sit there all the time coding the game.

That's already going to be happening for you. So a lot of what I was doing this year was more things around our own game. So how do we measure our structures? So how do we measure our exits? How do we measure our entries into 22? How do we measure that middle part of the field in terms of what our structure is?

And then you can start to drop in your phase calls. So, phase one, phase two, how are we going? And then a big thing we always look at, which we also get from our providers, is how we finish. So, so to give an example, if we finish positively, we've had a, we've scored a try, Like a line break [00:45:00] try, tackle break try, penalty for us, now a negative finish would be handling error, contact error, tackle into touch, you know, so it's basically the opposition are getting the ball off the back of what we've been doing.

, so a little bit of work around with the players understanding that if we can finish positively, we then get another crack with the ball. So we basically worked out if we got three, we basically called them possession stacks. So if we go kickoff reception, we catch, we play, they come offside or they, , entry of the ruck penalty.

So we've now got the ball again, kicked to the line out. That line out is now our second possession. One after the other, we play again, they come offside. If we get to three, we generally score nine times out of 10, we'd be scoring a try. So guys understanding if we can be really efficient when we've got the ball, then we've got a good chance of winning.[00:46:00] 

And then when the opposition have got the ball, we've just got to hold them for about 90 seconds, because the stats from world rugby suggests that if you can hold a team to 90 seconds. their chance of scoring dropped by about 60 percent, and that's either them making an error, blowing themselves out, or the refs involved.

So if we can be neat and tidy at the breakdowns, paint good pictures, and like the old UFC adage, let's just keep the, keep the judges out of it, let's keep the ref out of it by making sure we're technically correct. And when we know our, know the law, you know, so if we can't get it, ruck one, we might get it ruck two, but we'll certainly have a crack at ruck three or let them have it for two.

And we'll pile into the third ruck, you know, , when you look at different teams and how they play, you know, , whereas, I mean, if you compare Fiji to a Spain, a Fiji, a very much offloading, big power game, you know, people say we, [00:47:00] Try and stop the offloads was easier said than done at times, isn't it? And then, you know, you think about Spain or Great Britain, for example, I mean, they're, they're very much width to width, like to hold the ball, hold possession, go multiple phase.

France are very much offloading. With DuPont, a bit of a snipe and, , get their big players into the game. Ireland, a little bit like, did a little bit of both, you know, sort of held the ball for a bit, but had McNulty and guys like that to be nice and direct for them. So yeah, it's, , it's an interesting, you know, I think the way Sevens evolves and, you know, it's, it's, it's not, , it's, it's not, it's easy, but it's not easy.

If that makes sense. It's there's, there's lots going on. It's chaotic. It's six games in two days. There's Breaks between games. So it's quite a integrated performance model that you need to look at around the mental psych. Mm-Hmm. The, the fueling, the resting, the recovery, the [00:48:00] analysis. So my biggest point was almost how much is too much and what do guys actually need to know.

Yeah. , so we spent quite a bit of time around that. I was, I was gonna say that how does the short, the short timeframe of a sevens tournament is, is literally you've got maybe two or three hours in between a game, et cetera. How do you convert that analysis without it being boring, switched off? No, like, have you literally got to filter that to the nth degree and think, actually that's not really as important as it potentially looks?

Or do you just present it back and everyone takes on board what they want? And how, how does that work? Because that's a. Very short timeframe to make such an impact as well. It's a great question. And when I, when I first started, , we did a lot of sort of information gathering, I suppose. So we're always looking at what a team's doing, how they doing it, who are their key guys.

So it was quite sort of labor intensive sort of [00:49:00] getting the information. But as I've alluded to before, because we've now got it automated and it's fully. Like information's going, all we're now looking to do is, so we basically look at, we call it front loading. So before we go away, we already know who's in our pool and we can, you can almost sort of second guess who we may or may not play.

So like I said before, we can start to database the information of teams and then we can start going. So Jason Healy, the guy I mentioned before has been a huge help around Power BI and automating reports. So we've now. We've got four seasons of rugby information from Opta, who is our sort of data provider across all, any, any variable you can think of in rugby, then we've got access to that.

So, and it's so much like, I mean, not to sort of talk it up too much, but it's a world class system. So [00:50:00] we can look at, for example, kickoffs is a great example. So we can look at South Africa as a good example, because we played in the Olympics. So Selwyn Davids. What foot does he kick off? Yeah. Where does he kick?

So all his distribution charts across all his kicks over, we can go three seasons if we want, but we just used one. So when that's presented, does that just pop up like you see on the telly where it's got? It's, he's done, it literally looks like a driving range when you've been to the driving range and your ball's got all this stuff.

Yeah, so there's sort of, there's lots of dots. But the way we deciphered it was, here's where he kicks, and then part of my role was to go through the footage to find out there's different types of kicks that he delivers on. Yeah, of course. there's a context to it. So you've got, you've got the distribution chart and you've got the video.

So we know that he's a left footer. He generally kicks to the right hand side of the field. Now he can kick it deep as if it's down into the 22 to the touchline. [00:51:00] He can kick a traditional sort of Sevens kickoff to drop it on the junction of the 10 midline and the sideline and he's got like a little like you've got like a little couple of chip kicks or flat kicks that he uses to the left as well.

So being able to have those sort of. context or contextual, , discussions with the player say, this is how he kicks. This is where he kicks. Here are a couple of types of kicks that he's got. And then if he's kicking to the left hand side, he's quite deliberate. . Obviously, he was able to put, tell you where and where, where and how and what type of kick. Did that also, so during the game as well, does that outline when he kicked it in different positions? So, say there were losing by 10 points or 15 points or ahead by X amount.

Yes. Does that, is that data available? That's bonkers. If all of that, that's not, that's not available, but going through the video, you can then say, well, they're up [00:52:00] by eight. They're probably going to kick it long because now you've got to go 95 meters to score. So there's always a, there's always the context to the kick.

So yeah. If they're down by two and they need the ball back with 50 seconds to play, they're probably going to look at trying a little cheeky kick to get it back. So I suppose where we got to was because we don't play every week, which is when people can argue it's good and bad. What it does do, it gives you time to look at opposition, start looking at their trends, who their key guys are, what types of things that they run.

So. Like I was saying before, when we front load things, when we get to tournaments, when we're watching games, it's then, are they doing anything different to what we already know about? So, so South Africa or Argentina, because we played them a lot in the last couple of years, are they doing anything different to what we already know about from an [00:53:00] attack point of view and from a defense point of view and from a restart set piece point of view?

Now, if the answer is no, right, boys, let's go play sevens. We, we already, and then if they do pull a rabbit out of the hat or do something we've not seen before, well, they're trying to beat us. So you'd almost say get on them, you know, like the course. So they're going to be keeping things up their sleeve all the time and it's, you know, smokes and mirrors.

But yeah, we always talked about the 80, 20, if we know 80 percent of the time, what's generally happening and you're world class rugby players, you know, you're an all black sevens player for a reason. And so your ability to get. You can plan everything, but it's the same old adage as well, isn't it? Like boxing, everyone's got a game plan until they get punched in the face.

So, if you've got that shirt on for a reason, you know how to play rugby, you know how to play footy. Just play what's in front of you. These are the numbers that are [00:54:00] potentially going to happen. The rest of it, just go and have fun and make sure we win. And that's about it. Exactly. I mean, and then we always used to talk to them about, you know, what's your super strength.

So what's the reason you're in the team, you know, so like Scott Curry, good in the set piece, good on the edge carries well. Dylan Collier, the same Sam Dixon, you know what, like Tony Nashu. He's, you know, Great in the middle of the field, comes off the bench, teams are fatigued, and he can break the line and offload.

Yeah. Kouyla Rokoulisour, you know, quickest man in the squad, hard to stop, nominate World Player of the Year. Leroy Carter's the same, Moses Leo. Regan Weir, you know, all these guys are world class sevens players. So what, what David Galbraith did on mental skills goals, what are the things you're good at, but what are the things that worry you?

So they had to do a little bit of work on themselves about what actually worries you. So is it the unknown that worries [00:55:00] you, or is it? Is it the pressure of a situation? Is it rolling into an Olympic quarterfinal? Is it a World Cup final? So what are the strategies and things you can do just to keep yourself calm?

Because we used to talk about things, well, we could be down by three tries after five minutes. Well, how, what are we going to do then? So, and ironically that happened in Vancouver. Or probably 2019. , we played Scotland, we were down 21 0 after six minutes. It was like, jeez, we need to So, but the, the work that DG or David Galbraith had done was, we just need to take a breath, be calm, stick to the process.

So then we scored just before halftime, 21 7. Got the kickoff back, scored again. Now, now we're back in the game, so That whole 80, 20, like we could start really poorly, but we've just got to back ourselves to, you know, back our skills, back each other. And then the other great example was South Africa, 2018.

We lost [00:56:00] to, we'd lost to USA, beaten Australia, and we had to beat South Africa by. I think we just had to beat them. Otherwise it'd been the first time in our history we wouldn't have made the top eight. So we were down by 12 points with a minute to play. We had a line out, we scored, kicked the goal, come back, kicked off, got it back, two phases, score in the corner.

We were like, how the hell did that just happen? You know what I mean? Yeah, I can imagine. Wow. And there's, there's other examples where we've not got it right and we haven't made the top eight, you know, like, , against, , Australia in Toulouse, you know, they just, Got a roll on and kept rolling sort of thing.

So, , you know, that's, and like I was saying for that sort of integrated performance model of , where's the analysis sit, where does the mental skill stuff sit, where does all that recovery stuff sit so guys can feel like. When there's downtime, it's downtime, when it's ready to work, it's ready to work.

, and I think I was chatting to a guy at Bay of Plenty Rugby who's a, he was a [00:57:00] first responder for a while in the, in the New Zealand police and in the fire service. So, , I suppose military, examples are quite good as well around, well, if you're sort of sitting about waiting for something to happen, like an SAS soldier would be a good example.

You're sitting around, yeah, we're on, oh no, we're off, we're on, we're now off again, we're on, you know, so that ability to switch off, , and build your strategy around that now, that's a very extreme example, because they're dealing with life and death. We're just talking about, , a game of rugby, you know, sometimes when you, you don't, when it does feel a bit life and death, you know, because it's the expectation that comes with it, but that's why we do it, isn't it?

You know, we do it because it's, , we love it. It's high performance. It's representing our country represent our families and something that Tomasi Farmer always used to talk about. He used to say, On the front of your jersey in seventh is Who you're, well, is the team you're playing for is the country on the back of your jersey is your name.

[00:58:00] So that's who you're playing for your country. And then, you know, you're representing your family. So make sure you, you do that name proud as well by how you prepare, how you get ready between tournaments, how you play in tournaments. You know, if you don't get selected, how do you respond? You know, there's all that sort of things that come with high performance sport that.

You've just got to work your way through and be disappointed and that's, that's okay. But also then know what's my plan to get back in or, you know, long term injuries is another thing where, where guys can, you know, find it very difficult. So having those networks and support mechanisms to make sure players are actually okay and if they need to have a bit of a time off or, you know, decompression time, then, then that's what they need to do.

. So, the, the impact of mental understanding of the game must have, and like the mental decision making.

Must have a massive bearing on the [00:59:00] modern game, like back in the days, it obviously wasn't, wasn't as much of a focus as we all know, but that must literally be now deemed as probably one of the highest critical requirements for a high performance team. Is that, is that pretty much where you see it as well?

That's such a big part of the game now is to make sure everyone's got the mind right and can literally react to everything. Yeah.

think the, I think the mindset's huge, but also then, , understanding the environment, how do we replicate that at training? So myself and Travis, who's the, he was the strength and conditioning coach. He's actually just got a job with the New York Islanders in ice hockey. He's a, he's a Canadian and an ice hockey man by trade, but him and I were starting to build quite a bit of information around rugby and the GPS information.

So how can we then mimic or create activities? Then replicate certain [01:00:00] situations in the game. So like a 3v2 or a, well, build it up. So 1v1, 2v1, 3v2, 3v3 or a 4v3. So you can start to manipulate or manufacture certain scenarios and then guys just play. , so it's then just making sure that the loading plan is right.

We're getting the rugby, but we're getting the mindset. So we used to talk about, we've got a learning session, which is, you know, installing, discussing, make sure we're clear. Then we used to have performance sessions, which were right. This is going to be like game pace. And we're ready to go. So if there's errors, if there's things aren't quite right, then, , but we'll probably review that after we won't necessarily stop there to discuss it.

Because if you, if you miss a clean or you miss your role, or you do something that's not right, or you do something that's really good, then, you know, you'll, you'll get the required feedback, you know, , and then Liam Barry, who [01:01:00] used to be a forwards coach with us, him and David Nusifora, who's the, , he was the head of high performance, all in rugby for a while.

, And they were friends. They coached together at the Auckland Blues. David Nusifora used to comment about Sevens saying it's the ultimate game of consequence. So if you miss a tackle, you're under the posts. If you, if your pass is not the money, we knock it forward, opposition get the ball. So guys understanding now their ability to be efficient and consistent.

And, you know, I've always talked about rugby is a game based on mistakes, isn't it? You know, so you, you drop the ball, opposition get it, you don't, you kick it directly into the touch, opposition get it. You don't kick it 10, you know, you ruck entry, you don't roll. So, yeah, the more. efficient we can be and limit our mistakes, then the better position we're going to be in to win the game or win the tournament.

And as Clark Laidlaw used to say, you don't win a tournament day one, but you can certainly lose one. [01:02:00] Yeah. By not getting things right. And quarterfinals are probably the game changer. The most crucial game in a sevens tournament, you know? , so yeah, it's, it's been a, you know, it's been a journey around information, improving decision making, what's important.

Yeah. And that's pretty been the key one is, you know, I was like, and we've got all this information, it's like a, like an egg timer. So all the grains of sand, how many bits to the players actually need to see. So if I think of our current group. 

So young kids in the group. So what does someone need to know? Catch the ball, There's no one in front of your run, and there's someone in front of you pass. And I mean, if some in front of you with the ball tackle him, if they don't, then just stay in the system and keep moving. So that's one discussion.

And then Joe Webber, Regan Weir, sort of defense crew. So they might get a little bit more information. And then the set piece crew, the attack crew, they get a little bit more. And then us as staff might get a little bit more that we can then refer [01:03:00] to if we need to, but making sure messaging is clear, it's not over cluttered.

It's nice and concise. And ultimately we're wanting to give guys confidence to go and play. , and then I did some studies this year we did quite a lot of work around kickoffs. Yeah. So I was just giving databases of info going on mate, just go and watch these kickoffs and tell me what you see and then we can go to our reporting system to see if you're, if you're right, just come back and say, I think this and I think this, let's check it every single time he was right, I said so, my feedback to him was mate, just do it.

What you see and what you feel is absolutely 100 percent correct. Yeah, brilliant. And if you've got confidence and you can articulate it confidently, people are just going to back you because you are, you know, one of the best players in the world. So if you say, they're kicking here, we're sitting up here, let's go.

Do they? Does that happen quite often? They sort of slot in and just say, Oh, I want to do that. Or is that just some players just built that way? That's what they want to do,

right? [01:04:00] Yeah, it's, it's, , it's a little bit of, you know, But it's how that player is. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm never, I'm never on guys to do things. , from my experience. Yeah, exactly. Right. And I think of those young players I just spoke about when they come into a full time environment, you know, they're living away from home for the first time.

They've got to get their lifting right, their technique, right, their nutrition, right. Owned home life off field, right? They, you know, you've got bills to pay. Whereas I probably had more of a relationship with the senior players who have got all that sorted. So as a young professional, that the last part they think about is probably the analytics or the analysis, but it's just, I just say, look, We use a platform called Huddle.

If you can get on Huddle and just watch training, that's a start. Now, if you can cut clips and if you can do other bits, then as they become more professional and, you know, understand [01:05:00] the other moving parts to being a professional rogue player, then Yeah, they'll get there if that makes sense. So like Scott, Scott Curry and Sam Dixon, Dylan Collier, Joe Webber, they were not on me, but we'd have some good debates about the game.

And yeah, here's some more information for if you need it. Or have you got any more context to this? And yeah, let's go, you know? So it's definitely a two way street, you know, being part of everything you've done before and what type of thing as well. What is the biggest achievement achievement that you feel that you've managed in the game?

Because we've discussed this with others previously that it's brilliant to have all the trophies and all of these and all of that. But as we know, as coaches and other people within the game, sometimes just making that impact on one player or a group of players by being able to sort of address certain things and show them in a different way of life.

What is your biggest achievement you feel so far in the game?

I think sort of being able to sit with [01:06:00] players and build their confidence in the game. , again, something else that we, we, we pushed through David Galbraith was we got players to build their own, , we called them mops, so moments of perfection. So find some clips of what you do really well in the game of Sevens.

That's the reason why you've been picked. , and then what we did a few years ago, probably more sort of Clarkes thinking around making sure guys can perform, not necessarily on the rugby field, but perform off the field under pressure. They, we used to have, , one on ones. So players would come in to a team meeting.

So it'd be Clark head coach, Tomasi, Liam Barry, David Galbraith, Blair Mills, who was the strength and conditioning coach at the time, and Damian Banks, who was the physio. Their one on ones were them talking about what their strengths are, what their areas of development are, what their strength and conditioning, you know, areas are good and things they need some help with, and then their [01:07:00] prehab rehab.

So basically the meeting was theirs to. Be prepared for because as staff we were like, we're not going to do all the work. You sit down and we just tell you everything you need, you want to hear. It's like, this is your meeting to talk to us as staff about what help you need to move yourself forward to.

ultimately get an Olympic selection. So part of my role was, I wasn't necessarily in the meetings, but it's like, right, what clips do you want to show around what you're really good at? What's a couple that you may want to think, I need a little bit of help on my left hand pass or my left side tackle or my tracking.

I'm missing a few tackles on the left hand side because perfect. So that's, that's your rugby's done. Then they could spend some time thinking about that. So I think helping players be comfortable standing up And delivering in front of their peers has certainly been a huge achievement. And some of the guys that we're dealing with, you know, Polynesian, Fijian, so very quiet by nature, [01:08:00] but giving them the confidence to say, if you can get the work done, when you, when you get a question.

. You know, you got to spend time being good, , and I think just helping players understand what's available and then how deep they then want to go on that in terms of their own game is then really up to them, but I'm there to help facilitate them with that.

, I mean, the other thing we did this year was, well, not just this year, we've done it every year since I've been in the team. We have, we have many teams. So many teams are teams within teams. We, we use them to help them to help us sort of regulate the group. So we've got three teams. So, if I'm late to a physio appointment, then we'll get deducted mini team points.

Or, so, it's not, if it's anything sort of huge misconduct, that's a very different discussion. If it's like general misdemeanors, [01:09:00] you know, like nothing horrendous, or they've got on a t shirt, or you know, it's just little things, but Every Monday was Mini Team Monday, so I was part of a team called the Serial Killers when we first sort of got in, first inception I suppose, so we used to do it like the NFL draft, so any new players would have to come in and do a video and pick me, so off the back of that.

That was really good, because there's, you know, some good bands and videos. I was going to say, there must be a bowl of some absolute comedy gold there somewhere. Probably none for broadcasting either.

we'll keep that in house certainly, you know. But yeah, so this last year I was, I was sort of became, , Hunter became gamekeeper, you know, so I didn't sort of ran the mini team challenges, which was, , which was great, you know, because I was sort of delivering around the game and then right, we'll roll into mini team challenge.

And, , me, the manager and Travis were sort of the three that sort of facilitated that. So make, so guys are having fun, but then also there's, there's a little bit of an underlying, [01:10:00] if you don't quite get things right, there's that. It's not there to trip you up or be unpleasant, but just, you need to make sure you're doing things right.

And something we use a lot is our performance triangle. So if you imagine just a normal triangle at the top, we've got fun and connection. So that's in any rugby team, that's easy because we can have fun seeing generally have banter, that sort of thing. Then we've got edge and growth. Then we got focus performance, so the edge and growth part is helping players stand up and present, you know, those types of things that's like, Oh my gosh, that's like, Oh, feel really edgy doing that.

, and other little scenarios we used to do was we'd have everybody's name in a hat. Then we'd have a whole lot of different bits of paper with numbers on it. And then the third thing was an activity. So it could be right. Yeah. Tom, Carl. Oh, sorry. You go number first. So two. Pull out two names. So Tom and Carl.

What's the task? So there's generally [01:11:00] three or four team songs, the haka or something on rugby. So you're like, Oh, here we go. So you've got to do the haka. Well, there you go. You know? So it's just a good way to help guys understand that there's some things I need to know and I need to check off and be really confident and deliver on.

Yeah. Because if I've got to do one of those tasks in front of the group straight off the bat, well that's your edge and growth straight away, which isn't on field, because on field edge and growth is, is probably a lot easier than, than actually in the classroom or off field. So certainly helping guys around that area of, of, you know, presenting, delivering, , assisting them, or sometimes the two of us would present stuff just to make them feel a bit at ease.

So it's never sort of ridicule or make them feel uncomfortable. It's like, but this is just good for your ongoing. Professional career, you know, cause you'll need to get up and speak and present around the POs of the game, you [01:12:00] know. Very good standard of players, , by the sounds of it. Who's the, who's probably the best player that you've played with and or sort of coached or been around with?

Who's the best player?

Best player? Yeah, I'd probably say in terms of sevens would be probably Tim Mickelson, Scott Curry. You know, two great. players have been around the game 15 years, co captain of the team, had a lot of success, , and probably seen their growth over eight years as well. , I suppose players you admire on the circuit, I mean, people like Jerry Tuwai, done a lot for, for Fiji rugby and, , winning Olympic gold twice as captain.

, it's not bad. No. And, you know, Being lucky enough to be at Northern United, you know, like dealing with some wonderful players there. , I don't want to sort of name drop, but I probably will. And there's, there's like Antz Peronisa. He was a prop for the [01:13:00] Hurricanes. He was from Peru and North, playing for Bath for about eight or nine years.

, Fafili Lavave, end up playing for Samoa as well. From Northern United. , Alapati Layua, end up going and play for Bristol, 100 games for Bristol, play for Samoa, play for Hurricanes. , just trying to think, Buxton Popoli is another one, end up playing for the Highlanders, All Blacks Sevens. , Sean Treby, play for the Highlanders, kicked on into, , into Japan.

, T. J. Perinara, we had him straight out of school from Porirura. Could you tell that when you saw him? Like when he sort of turned up? He was probably destined for greatness then. Could you tell he was going to be what he is now? . Yeah. I mean, he was just at 18. He was, you know, good habits, good professional. You know, it's just something he just really wanted to do all of the time. , you know, then playing for Harlequins, , there's, yeah, there's just hate. There's just so many wonderful players. I've been [01:14:00] lucky enough to, I mean, Brad Shields was in a one, it's another twenties team in 2011.

, yeah. Nick Grigg ended up playing for Scotland, second five for us. So. Ambrose Curtis played sevens, George Tillsley, I think he's at Agen in France at the moment. , I'm trying to think, Eric Sioni playing for Castre Prop. , yeah, obviously, so many players that kicked on into, into Super Rugby. Tomasi Alassu ended up playing for Samoa.

, sevens as well. , yeah, it's just been, just very fortunate. Matt Proctor's another one. He's in that 2011 team, becoming All Black. Yeah. Like just, just loads of just good men, really. And even through that schools program I did for three years, like Rieko Ioane, Dalton Papali'i, Safra Moore, Sevu Rees. , you know, just, there's just so many that sort of spring to mind, but I mean, I'm only, I was a very, very small part of, of their journey.

Certainly in the New Zealand schools program as a month long, twenties camps, you know, [01:15:00] like rep, Rep stuff here is, is short. I mean, a rep season in NPC is, is sort of 12 weeks. So working with, with the Bay last year, doing some coaching was, was great fun. You know, with Triple T and Kurt Eklund and Aiden Ross and John Afoa.

Obviously played for Bristol, played for Gloucester. He had a year with the Bay last year, you know, he was, he was 40 then. So being able to just sort of chat with guys like that who have been around the game and had a huge amount of success, , just to sort of help me and I helped them, you know, has, has been really, really good.

, and just seeing the growth of young players from sort of Wellington or Bay have plenty Academy sort of moving themselves into. provincial rugby and then ultimately into super rugby too, you know, which is nice. That's great. It's just good to see you. I mean, is there any player that you've come across that should have made it?

You know, so you cross sounds of it. Most, most you've come across [01:16:00] have it, but are there any that have slipped through the net that through their own choice or their own mistake or just kind of got lost to the system at the right, at the wrong time or what? , yeah, there's probably a couple, , like Villamoni

Colloy, , like world class sevens player, had some injury, had some difficulty off field. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's all him, but, , he was, he was someone that was in the sevens team , you know, had, had some injury, , Sort of moved up the ranks quite quickly. , and if we go back to what we've talked about before on that sort of mental prep, you know, helping young players become good professionals.

And, you know, I think, you know, professional rugby is, is great, but there's a bit of mundane to it as well. It's very much rinse and repeat. It's, you know, sleep, eat, train, recover, do your detail working and then keep going. , so yeah, he [01:17:00] was certainly someone that was, was very, very capable. He's still playing a bit of rugby, but it'd be good to see him back in an NPC jersey playing, whether it's for a Otago or whoever it was, played a few games for a Otago as well.

He'd be one that springs to mind because we had him in the schools team in 2016, you know. So obviously with the NPC as well, you're not completely excluded, like in England and other countries, once you've kind of fell out the the academy system and sort of been really, you're lost, pretty much gone, you're not, there's not really a door open back, whereas the NPC seems to be a little bit more open, is that, is that correct?

yeah, yeah, so I suppose the way it's now, we're always used to where you play for your club and then, If you were, if you're good enough at club level or school, so if we use Bay of plenty as the example, so if I go to total my boys and I'm a sort of promising young [01:18:00] player, I'll get picked up in the under 16s, under 18s, under 19s.

And that once they leave school, Then there's an opportunity to sort of move into the academy, but generally all the good young players will play under 19s and then from under 19s, they'll move into senior or premier rugby, but most of them will be playing premier rugby at under 19 level. And then from there, if they're good enough and you're playing club rugby or a senior, you'll get picked for Bay of Plenty.

So the pathways club school. It's like the old county system where you'd play club or school, county, division, play for England. So that's essentially how it works here. So you play for your province, , then from your province you've got opportunity to get picked in super rugby and then from super rugby, if you're good enough, you'll get picked up by the All Blacks.

But if someone falls out of, doesn't have a contract in super, they can go back and play club to make sure they still have a contract in [01:19:00] NPC. Yeah. , so some guys. , work for half the year and then they're in the NPC for the other half. And then there's super rugby development teams or under 20s programs as well, which they can fall into.

So, you know, there's always a competition for someone to play in, , if they're not in a particular team. So there's always a development team under 19s at provincial level. So generally that will sit with. Guys that need some game time, guys coming back from injury, next up and comers coming. Nice. So there is a bit of a recycle then so that people don't get lost.

Because I've discussed this many times on the pod with other people and You kind of get to, like, people do develop at different ages as well, and having that sort of set up, I don't know why they don't use it more. It clearly works for New Zealand, obviously. Yes. Why can't that work in other places, but I think some of them are very close minded to the [01:20:00] fact that It works for New Zealand, so they don't want to be looked like they're copying New Zealand, and there's, there's probably sometimes there's that ignorance and arrogance of, oh, yeah, okay, they've managed it, but we don't want that because we'll be classed under the same bit, and Rugby's rolled a lot by ego rather than what's best for the players in the system.

, and New Zealand as a whole within that, within the game seems to have removed that. Obviously the no dickhead policy at the All Blacks 15. Does that no dickhead policy is literally up and down? Does that follow through the sevens as well and stuff like that? Yeah. It's this sort of like growing mature men, you know, like just making sure you're making good decisions. And then if, if people don't make good decisions, then it's, you know, to what level of consequences there. I mean, if it's just, you know, if it's getting a bit boozed and get on the bed early, then that's one thing.

But if you're out in the [01:21:00] public domain and the newspapers get ahold of it, that's a very different discussion. So the key part around that is helping players understand that. Just because you don't know who somebody is? They probably know who you are, so you just need to make sure that, you know, when you're out and about and you're wearing the fern, or even if you're not, you're just making sure you're holding yourself in a good aura, I suppose.

, and then if you, you know, if you're going to have a birthday party or a family gathering, then, you know, be at home and enjoy your family time, you know. Just make sure you're keeping off social media and making smart decisions around there. I mean, you know, we were talking before about being a university.

I mean, if there was Snapchat and all that back then, goodness me. Yeah. So, but you know, like that's what young people today have got to contend with, haven't they? You know, there's that sort of instantness and uploading of things straight away, just helping them understand that there's, you just need to, you know, [01:22:00] Everyone is going to have a beer, but I'm just going to have a beer, you know, and just do the things you need to do and let off steam where you need to, but just make sure, so we're helping them through the, through the program that they can make good decisions on things as well.

, so, so yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah. I've just been very lucky, you know, work with some wonderful players, work with some sort of wonderful programs and people at NZR and, you know, different provincial teams around the country as well. So it's been great. Sort of coming to the end of its time or is that now sort of changed?

Are you back in or is there another another bit that's potentially in there? the next phase of your career.

, no, I saw I finished with sevens. So my, , so I finished end of end of September. , so yeah, just feeling, you know, hugely grateful for the opportunity with sevens. I mean, all up I've had 11 years with New Zealand rugby. , probably started the discussions. It was like eight [01:23:00] seasons, you know, two Olympic cycles.

The whole program is so well set up for the next person in terms of the automatic programming, the resourcing that's available, whoever gets the job. is well set up to go to Dubai and Cape Town and do well. So probably what I'm enjoying the most is, is a little bit of time. Figure out my next move, doing a little bit of networking, doing things like this, which I've never done before.

So thank you for having having me on and , let me share my story. But yeah, just sort of figuring that out. Ideally I'd like to get back on the grass when I get back coaching. , that's really where I want to get to. , and each year through sevens, I've always tried to coach a team. So back in 2019, I was with the Bay under 19s and then 2020, I was with the Bay through that COVID period.

2021, I was with Canterbury doing a, it's like a performance consultant job. So my role was [01:24:00] if they're playing Otago this weekend. If I'm the Otago coach, what are some of the things I'll be looking to do to beat Canterbury? So I was just to meet them on Zoom. every Sunday and talk about what the numbers were telling me, a few clips, which has helped them for their, their week moving into that training block, ready for a title on that Saturday.

So then the next week I'll then get all the sort of scouting stuff done for the following week. , so that was another sort of fifteens role. 22 did nothing. And then last year was sort of, I'm an assistant coach with the Bay, so I was doing attack support, but then all the non selected guys came with me and we, we played like Auckland or whoever that weekly opposition was.

So, so I think, you know, getting back on the grass, I mean, there's still an opportunity to do a little bit of analysis, but more around probably supporting the analysts there about what's available. More into fifteens and sevens or if a seven, the right sevens job. Sort of plunked in its lap. Would you, would you continue look at [01:25:00] continuing or do you want to sort of get back to the 15, I think?

Yeah. Good question. I suppose, , if there was another seven's role, it'd be nice, a discussion to be had. But certainly I, I'd love to get back into fifteens. , yeah, few options floating around, , here in New Zealand, I mean. Back in the UK as well. , so yeah, it's just sort of spending some time and just figuring that part out.

And the good thing is I've got some time now, whereas, you know, sevens was, was great, but it's, it's a busy schedule and there's plenty going on lots of the time, which i, I know. Yeah. When Dubai's on the tell, I, I'll probably reflect and think, oh gee, I, I will, I know I'll miss it. Yeah, yeah.

But also knowing it's the right decision. It's, it's time for someone else to enjoy sevens. It's, it's time for, , you know, someone to, you know, get around the world and enjoy what I've enjoyed, which I think is the key part. And I think if it wasn't for COVID, would I have been in the role as long as I have been?

But having said that I wouldn't change it because You know, the things [01:26:00] I've learned and skills I've been able to gain through, through, I mean, you know, through something bad comes out something good, you know, like, so yeah, it was difficult, but we got, we've got loads of things set up and prepared so I can sort of walk away, you know, and just be glad that You know, it's the program's ready to go.

It's set up and I've had a wonderful time. As you say, you've hopefully left the jersey in a better place. And that's the typical, that's the all flat way, you've got to make sure you leave that jersey in a better place than you, than you took it on. So that's, that must, that must give you enough just to say, right, that's, that's the time I'm ready.

I can now move on and go and do something else and enjoy that. , Tom, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on mate. I know that obviously you, it's your really early doors of getting on to nearly half 10 out here now, so. I've got, , I've got a couple of bits to do in the morning. I could carry on with this forever, mate, because it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on, mate.[01:27:00] 

Obviously, we'll keep in touch. Maybe there's maybe another episode further down the line once we find out what, , what you're, what you're on to next. But thank you so much for your time, mate, jumping on. I know it was your first one, but you've, you've done brilliantly and there's plenty of, plenty of things that people can take away from this conversation.

And Another, another door open in the game that people don't understand just about analysis. There's, there is a lot that goes into it that you, that nobody, nobody knew, but some people did it and some people don't. So it's, it's what this pod set up for me. So just, I just want to say so much. No, thanks for having me. And you know, it's been great just to chat everything rugby and, you know, sharing some stories and if it helps someone else along their journey and getting results that they want, then that's all what it's all about, you know. 

 Right, that brings yet another episode of Rugby Through The League's podcast to an end. Uh, I just want to take a moment to say thank you to everyone that's been joined, watched it all the way through, uh, listened to it all the way through. Hopefully you guys can take away a lot of information from a very, [01:28:00] very top player.

guest and a very knowledgeable rugby fan, analyst, player, coach, literally been there, done a lot of it and , what a place to be able to do it as well over in New Zealand alongside some top, top players that he's managed to. to do it alongside with. So I just want to say thank you to Tom for jumping on.

Obviously, I know it was, , an early one for him and late one for me. , but we managed to get it around. There was a few storms. So at the back end of the interview, there was a bit of an overlap. So we had a few issues with his, his internet, my internet and stuff. The final edit wasn't the greatest I've done, but we've, managed to get the most of the information in there.

So there was a little bit of an overlap. So I do apologize for that, but hopefully everyone got the rest of the main information out of Tom. And I agree that it's a really top guest that we've managed to get on. All Black 7's involvement is, is phenomenal to listen to as it is. Let alone get somebody that's been so involved for.

, [01:29:00] eight seasons and two Olympic cycles. Not many can get away with that and, uh, not many can do it for that long and at such a high level. So obviously Tom's now trying to figure out where he's going next. So hopefully that'll open the door again for another pod later on once he's, uh, found out where he is and what he's going to do.

But that leads on to next week. We're going to carry on with the performance side of it as well. So we've got another performance coach coming on at the minute. So on. Dan's been involved with Paraguay. He's been with Brazil. He's been doing a lot of different teams and been around the block. His rugby CV is unreal.

, another one that's going to really open a lot of knowledge of the game. game from different aspects, obviously as well. Similar to sort of Warren and Russell in how they're set up. So really good, , in guests to get on when he's, , when we can sort of get the interview done and understand where he's been and understand where Paraguay go in and Brazil and all different aspects.

So another [01:30:00] really top guests, but, um, Just want to say from me, thank you for joining. Thank you for listening. Thank you for subscribing. All of that's good stuff. We want to carry growing a pod, carry on sharing that message from the bits not everyone else gets to see. So just want to say thank you and goodbye.