Episode 24 - The Darragh Coyle Interview - All things in the Irish Rugby System

In this episode, Darragh Coyle shares his journey in rugby coaching, discussing his experiences in both Ireland and Australia. He highlights the differences between the Irish and English rugby systems, the importance of funding and collaboration, and the challenges faced in the All-Ireland League. Darragh emphasizes the need for player accountability, leadership, and the significance of investing in relationships within the sport. He also reflects on the growth of women's rugby and the potential for further development in the All-Ireland League.

Transcript

Rugby Through The Leagues (00:13)
Hello and welcome to yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. As you can see, we're finally home. So we've obviously got a half decent view behind us. Obviously the next few weeks, still going to try and get back to normality.

Getting back to rugby as well, obviously getting back to coaching, getting back to actually playing for the season. So first game this weekend potentially against Albacete. So yeah, really looking forward to getting back to some sort of level of normality in rugby. So this week's episode though, we've got Darragh Coyle on, as I've mentioned in the end of last week's pod, Darragh's on to talk all things all about the All -Ireland league. He's obviously just done a recent trip to Australia, so we managed to understand.

unlock a bit of what goes on over there as well so that was really cool. Darragh is a really top bloke, reached out quite early on in the pod to say.

keep going mate, everything you're doing is really good so it was really nice and then I obviously managed to find out about Darragh and what he does and his passion for the game. He'd come over to England for a bit and played with some exceptional players, realised he wasn't of a level so he got himself involved in coaching because he wanted to be part of a game still. So he's now fully embraced that, part of the old Wesley set up at part of Terenure College so sees a big movement within the All -Ireland set up as well.

Great to have him on, really good to talk about rugby in Ireland as well and try and open the door there for a few people that don't understand I was one of them, still obviously want to learn more about it and obviously show that light. So Darragh is able to come on and do that for us. So yeah, it's great to have him on and this one's a really, really good one as well. So let's get on with it.

Carl (01:56)
Right, so this week we've got Darragh Coyle on. Darragh reached out to me on LinkedIn, early doors in the pod to show his support and gave me a nice little boost early on to make sure that we kept the pod going, as we all know, the Grassroots Rugby doesn't seem to get enough attention. And Darragh reached out, loved it. I looked into what Darragh actually does within the game and where he's been and thought it'd be a perfect guest to get on.

He has just been in the land down under as well, so his jet lag has hopefully recovered. But, Darragh, for those that don't know, mate, can you please enlighten them and let us know where you've been, what you've done, and chat about your little trip out to Oz as well, if you can, mate.

Darragh (02:44)
Yeah, absolutely. Look, thanks for having me on. Yeah, as I said, just it's amazing to get a spotlight on certain areas of the game that maybe don't get the coverage and exposure that they merit at times that they need. as I said, fully merit based when I sent you that message. It's great to see the work being done. Look, I suppose from my end, from a coaching perspective, I got into the game quite young on the back of realizing pretty early that playing probably wasn't going to be the route for me. But, you know, like most people in the

game regardless of the standard you develop a real love for it.

And if you can stay in it in any capacity, it's great. And I'm very lucky I've been able to forge a little bit of a career in it to date. I suppose, look, foundationally, I was very lucky as I was still playing in university, I was able to to link in with a school that one of the coaches there was a director rugby in and that was really the apprenticeship for me for the first three, four years of combining study with learning a bit more about the game and definitely made me a better rugby player as well, just around decision making and processes and

Taking out my sort of selfish individual perspective of what I was doing in the game and understanding the broader context of where that fits with within a team. So four very happy years there and then once I finished study it was trying to sort of navigate where...

where can I get the bang from my buck Where can I develop further? where you guys are over in England, there's some really good opportunities that schools do there to expose young coaches to, main thing was coaching hours really, and getting one of those graduate rugby assistant roles initially. And from that perspective, that was gold for me because you're coaching from half seven in the morning, it's preschool, you're doing all the games lessons during school across all the different year groups.

then after school as well co -curricular. So in terms of actually getting all the experience and the opportunity to be on pitch, work with players of different ages, understand how different kids receive information, working with 200 plus people a day. That was very interesting and opportunities from that branched out further around the sort of development pathway stuff with the Yorkshire Rugby Academy and the re -established Leeds Tykes.

Carl (04:56)
Because you come over to, was it Bradford? Bradford Way? Because you played for Bradford Salem as well for a little bit didn't you? Yeah.

Darragh (05:02)
Yeah, yeah, that was an interesting one. I went over to Bradford initially. Dan Scarborough was director of rugby there, a really incredible guy to work under and had a pretty fantastic team, real blend of rugby league and rugby union coaches over there. So different perspectives, different emphasis on different points of the game. Bradford Salem was an interesting one because I'd gone over to England really not planning to play any rugby at all.

Carl (05:16)
Yeah, I can imagine,

Darragh (05:26)
Dan and Glenn Morrison, formerly with the Bradford Bulls, had both been trying to get me involved. Again, they really overestimated any sort of rugby background I had.

I went out to Bradford Bulls and as you'd expect in North of England, just, you know, rough and tumble and sort of stuff that a city boy out of Dublin probably wasn't used to at times. And I just decided that that wasn't for me. So I get a couple of training sessions and that was kind of it. I really, I stressed a long -term the injury I had really was putting me, was going to pull me out of the game.

So it was, look, it was a hugely, hugely important thing for me to do to go away, to see how different countries work, to get on pitch a lot more. Because over in Ireland, there is no pathway to coaching really. It's kind of something that ex pros either fall into. There are obviously schemes that...

that give you opportunities to coach after school hours or within a club. But in terms of meaningful hours where you can fail on the job, reflect, learn and then get another opportunity to do it 10, 15, 20 minutes later. wasn't enough of that here. So that was really important that I went over to Bradford and then around the Leeds area and get to do that. And as I say, branching out from the school into other initiatives and other youth development programs. was that that has put the lens

on the one -to -one development side of the game, which is probably where my passion is now. Particularly in the kind of niche roles I operate in with the teams I'm currently involved in around Scrum, Contact Skills, you find yourself, you know, rather than doing team reviews, you're working with players a lot more individually. So again, getting exposed to that early doors at a young age was really, really beneficial to developing me and it's an area I've really tried to keep going with.

Carl (06:52)
Yeah.

What was the biggest difference between the Irish set -up and the English set -up when you land? Obviously, as well, probably going up into the Northern territories of England, as you said, you've got the mix of rugby league, rugby union. Was that a bit of an eye -opener coming from Ireland, obviously, where league is that much a thing there? Is there little pockets of people, enthusiasts, or is that not really a situation in Ireland either?

Darragh (07:42)
Really, I think the biggest difference honestly, was the fact that you really have to start making decisions on kids a lot earlier and making promises without all the information. So I met with someone yesterday in the IRFU talking about this and how other countries have really put a massive emphasis on their international under 17s and under 18s programs. And while yes, the potential is there to say if they're in an under 18s program early, it means by the time they get to under 20s, they've really got a performance mindset as opposed to a developmental one.

Carl (07:50)
Bye, okay.

Darragh (08:12)
The disadvantage is that you never quite know who you're missing out of that, who you're losing from that net. You're trying to convince a 14 year old why he should be coming into the rugby union pathways as opposed to a rugby league pathway. He gets drafted into, the purpose of this conversation, the York's Rugby Academy. Because he's gone in early doors, he's getting that investment from that program until under 17. Meanwhile, the late developer who is now 17 and a very good player, but hasn't been exposed to the quality of coaching since when he was

Carl (08:17)
Yeah.

Right.

Darragh (08:42)
14, he's now out of the program. So we don't quite have that problem in Ireland. You know, it is a multi -sport country. We've obviously got the Gaelic football is probably our biggest competitor, but because there really are two totally different codes, the guys who end up playing rugby union are playing it and tend to do so for about, if you're starting at minis, you generally get a 10 year commitment until they're 14, 15, and then they start to make decisions. Plus there's a huge amount of cooperation around, you know, you're playing Gaelic football.

week on a Saturday so you can play with us on a Sunday and we really try to keep it, know, to keep all ends happy for as long as we can and then around 16, 17 they really have to look into making a decision. The feeling I got from England was that there probably wasn't the same level of collaboration between the codes and that everyone was at each other's throats to get players as early as possible. I think A, you can just, you can miss players and then you can also make really premature decisions on who you're bringing into those programs in the first place.

Carl (09:29)
Yeah.

think you hit the nail on the head when you said funding. I think the funding's the issue is a case of if a player wants to do both, you can't split funding. So codes over here and stuff, just, it's lost. Rather than developing an athlete and a player that could play both or be able to have a strength in either side is lost down to money. That's the hardest bit of a lot of the funding pots. It's not as an athlete, you've...

you're trained either one side or the other in here and that's where the funding piece gets lost.

Darragh (10:15)
they also miss out on a huge amount of the transferable skills which actually will benefit any individual sport from a long -term perspective. The skills you get from, again I'll use the Irish example of Gaelic football in terms of aerial balance, the huge amount of that sport is about competing for high balls, getting high vertical jumps off the air, things that really benefit you from a movement and functional motor skill perspective in rugby union. The feeling I got was I would have

love to have seen a little bit more collaboration but again I don't know if it's because people presume there can't be collaboration and avoided conversations or people are having the conversations and they just realize it's too combative so there's no point.

Carl (10:55)
yeah, there's probably a mixture of both. Somebody's tried to breach it and then it's just said, no, we can't do that. And then that's come to an end. So it's a sad fact, as you said, because with GAA and hurling, it's the transfer. It's like even the transfer of weight on your feet to turn. All of those skills makes an easy transfer into different games, especially over in Ireland, obviously, you've got different skill sets and...

because all of it's, it's a pretty much all amateur set up in Ireland as well apart from the lads that are in the system that are going up through the piece. So there's, it's only gonna benefit the other games as well. So it's probably that little, that does help. And that's a positive because you can transfer between the school, the games, codes and everything like that. And all it's gonna do is benefit the game. Whereas over here, a lot of the time it's funding.

can't steal him in case he's never gonna come back. It's like they've become ownership, like an amateur at 14. It's a weird, weird model at times, innit?

Darragh (11:58)
Yeah, and it doesn't help them when other stakeholders start to get involved. And I know every parent has the best will in the world for their kids. But unfortunately, the reality is when certain kids end up in development programs at 14, 15 years of age.

all of sudden certain parents can become qualified solicitors and they know what's best for their kid from a development perspective. Their input is really, really important because they play a massive role in the development of what that child is doing away from the pitch. If I see them for one hour a day, they see them for 23. So the input and the role they could play in

Carl (12:17)
Yeah.

Darragh (12:35)
where that child goes, not necessarily to get to the very top from a performance perspective, but in terms of just instilling really positive daily habits, the emphasis that they can place on areas that we can't prioritize on pitch, such as nutrition, sleep, recovery. But when they get a bit tied up in the fame and glory of it all, and we sort of place too much of an emphasis on maybe what under 14 representation actually is, which again, it's an essence, it's a development program to give them a little bit more

time on pitch with different people. Because in a world where they're going to, if they're in a club, the turnover of coaches and clubs is so big now that you've got to plan for different voices to be giving your kids different kinds of information and waited in different ways. yeah, you'd just like to see it a little bit more aligned, I think.

Carl (13:21)
Yeah, definitely.

Right so you made it back to Ireland after your little stint at Bradford. Where did that take you? did you embark upon after you managed to get a little bit on pitch hours and stuff like that?

Darragh (13:23)
you

Yeah, yeah, look, again, I was keen. What England did for me was really just reaffirmed that if there's a career in this, it's what I really want to do. So look, I was able to connect with people pretty early doors in the IRFU and people in the coach development sphere, player development sphere. And they were really good in terms of guiding me towards what the next sort of role should look like. And it was a level that I actually hadn't played back in Ireland. So they were very much pushing me to try to work within the All Ireland League, which as you touched on,

it's our adult men's, it's an amateur competition but it's the adult men's and women's club game. So a couple of opportunities came up where

come aware of the doors of certain teams that might be looking for an extra set of hands. And as it happened, all Wesley, which was very, very close to my house back in Dublin was one of them. the introduction was kind of already there. The coach at that time had coached my younger brother when he was in the Leinster pathways. And so there was already a sort of half a relationship there. And so that's where we ended up landing at with their senior men's team. Again, working in that kind of niche role of kind of contact skills and

It's become a bit more of a thing over in Ireland, it's sort of understanding where the individual responsibility lies in the continuity of attack and defence. Face play both sides of the ball. So that's been something that's been cool to delve into a little bit from an analytical perspective, getting to see the direct individual development of players and...

and working with them on an individual basis, probably more so than the standard team review and preview on attack and defense. And then dovetailed within that, I also work in a school called Terenure College, historically one of the more successful schools in Leinster, and obviously the schools program over here is the pathway to professional rugby. It's their audition, it's where the spotlight is for the next generation of players. So it's a competition which has a massive amount of excitement around it.

and

The preseason, I suppose that competition is incredibly long with about 15, 16 games. so huge scope and opportunity to have contact time with these players. You know, having two, three week breaks in between and then the potential to take these young players on tour, their first experiences of that and preparing them for a lot of them for what we hope will be entry into, you know, either the professional game or higher levels of the amateur game. And really pleasing for us, you if you come back to the question of what is

success and to a certain degree it is winning. We all want to win. We all want to be successful in that regard and have tangible success. But more than anything, actually, if only one team can win, I've said this for a while, you can win 95 % of your games and still not win a competition. So what are your other metrics of success? And we're all scanning to see in the last two years that, you I say that I've been involved, but the whole school had a bit of a revolution of coaching set up. And in those two years, last year we had four players

wear an Irish Jersey at underage representative level. Before that we hadn't had an Irish representative for eight years. had, I think, nine.

Carl (16:39)
Wow.

Ready? Crossed.

Darragh (16:46)
nine or 10 players involved in the Leinster pathways at under 18s and under 19s. like as though, as much as though we'd love to have a trophy at the end of last season to say, we're getting that tangible success and maybe you get a bit more of the external noise saying, Terenure are moving in the right direction. I think in -house we can see that there's a lot of good being done within the program foundationally at that sort of year seven group, but also we're really, we're reverse engineering it from the top down and.

Yeah, the place is incredibly healthy.

Carl (17:17)
So where did you guys finish in the last round? Was it the last tournament? And when does the new tournament start? Obviously school period? Is it sort of at the end, just before all their exams or anything like that? Or have you got a clear structure of how you've got to that season out?

Darragh (17:35)
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty repetitive every year. So we generally get the guys back on pitch in early July and preseason will run until they come back to school at the end of August.

Carl (17:45)
well that's quite an early start then to be fair. So are they all local lads? because starting from July, if the kids going back home or anything like that to other parts or have they just literally got to be around available to be part of the system?

Darragh (17:59)
No, because there's so many schools, particularly in Dublin, there's so many schools pocketed across the province, a lot of school intakes geographical. Now you get a huge amount of, I suppose, for want of a better term, nepotism where priority might be given to people whose parents have gone to the school. Terenor as a sort of village is incredibly tight. It's a really strong community and the intake of people into that private school is generally very local.

Carl (18:08)
Bye.

Bye.

Darragh (18:29)
to those guys, there during the summer.

year we would have started a little bit earlier because we went on tour but we were very keen. think last year ended up being close to an 11 -month season so we gave them proper time off and started July to the end of August. These boys then come back to school at that first week at the end of August. We'll then run through with a series of games across the whole school year until we get to about the end of January which is when the cup competition starts. So you kind of get 15 -16 trial games together.

Carl (19:01)
Okay.

Darragh (19:03)
a sense of where you are, test your depth, evolve your game model, get a real sense of what your team's strengths are. I think a lot of teams can come into a competition with an identity of this is how we're going to play, but I think the turnover of schools rugby is such that you know the 70 -80 % transition rate of players year on year, I think you have to be really adaptable to the strengths of any given group on any given year. So what 15 -16 games gives you is that evidence of this is the super strengths of the group and this is where they're

little bit more vulnerable maybe compared to previous years. So we get to the end of January and then over the course of about six weeks there's a straight knockout competition so there's different tiers of the cup competitions but we will be competing in the top tier one. 16 schools go into it so of the first round 16 teams play and whoever loses you you're out now.

What the competition is trying to do is make it a bit like a sevens format where if you lose and the bottom eight teams will play and to a stage where everyone gets a position at the end of the competition, but

Carl (20:08)
Right, so you get a bit of a stand in, understand where you've... So is there a seeding system as well? there, like, out of that 16, is there a top four teams that won't play each other, or is that depending on who pulls the balls out of the draw to make sure that the certain teams don't play against each other?

Darragh (20:25)
Yes, so traditionally, I mean, it's not seeded and that it's a random draw like any team can play anyone. But like the top six schools, traditional I suppose top six schools get automatic qualification into the senior cup, which is the top tier competition. And we would be fortunate to be one of those top six. The other 10 places have to earn their keep through a qualification process, but it's fluid, right? mean, like what you'll get is on any given year, like I say, it's transitional. So we're very lucky. We have a pretty strong foundation and we're

Carl (20:47)
I will.

Darragh (20:55)
confident that the regeneration year on year sets us up to still be considered, I suppose, a top six school or confident that we don't feel the need to go through a qualification process. But you might get a school of who's maybe more in that eight to ten bracket, who on any given year might say, look, we have a really, really strong group this year. Instead of going through the league where we have to qualify, which could be a mismatch in terms of scores, we would prefer to automatically go into the senior cup.

freeing up the season for us to get fixtures against really competitive teams across Ireland. And so what we get to do with Terenure is do a lot of touring of places like Cork, Belfast. We have Connacht under 18s who have, instead of running a summer program, now run kind of an all year program.

Carl (21:44)
Okay.

Darragh (21:45)
So they do a lot of touring of the private schools. we get to, we get a whole range of different experiences, which is fantastic. And that takes us right up to St. Patrick's Day weekend. If that, you know.

He's got that all goes well, but for whatever reason it doesn't then come sort of mid April, end of April, we start to get the guys back on pitch for a bit of on pitch condition games, but really more an element of fun and get them excited about the idea of enjoying rugby again, particularly if it's after such an inflated high or deflating low and set the pathway for where we want to move it towards next season. it's, it's a

Carl (22:19)
So the finals on St. Patrick's weekend, is that the ultimate piece? Okay, that's cool. that, that's fairly common with a lot of stuff on across Ireland as well. it with a lot of the finals all sort of come together on that weekend.

Darragh (22:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's one of the weekends where I think you've got such a good atmosphere around the country and everyone really puts a massive priority around sport. You sound like somebody who's done St Patrick's Day in Ireland before.

Carl (22:38)
it's brilliant. Absolutely quality.

Yeah, I worked over in Ireland for a little bit on the back of my telecoms days and I was over in Galway and yeah, we had Paddy's weekend off so we hit it pretty hard. So it's got good memories, shall I say.

Darragh (23:00)
It's a great place to be. I remember when we were a little bit younger, people would be saying it's very anticlimactic. And then you get to a stage where you're an adult and you realize actually there is a proper buzz when you can do it properly. it's a...

Carl (23:11)
Yeah, 100%. So obviously, that's effectively the day job. Obviously, you old Wesley then, obviously they're part of the All -Ireland League. For those that aren't aware of the All -Ireland League, how does that work? Because that's a fully amateur system. That's people that have obviously come out of the pathway for Leinster, et cetera. But Leinster also, or Munster, et cetera, or the provinces.

also put players back into those to get blooded in similar to what they do in the UK where the Premiership team send them off onto Nat 2, Nat 1 to blood them in. So how does the All Ireland League work for old Wesley and just in general for everyone that's not aware?

Darragh (23:57)
Yes, I suppose slightly different to the National Leagues. The reason it's not semi -professionalised is by definition, I guess, is purely on the basis that old Wesley cannot get three promotions and end up in the URC, if that makes sense. Whereas, know, oddly rugby in theory, could get four promotions. I mean, theory of all the right factors were in place and end up playing at the Premiership.

Carl (24:18)
Correct.

Darragh (24:18)
So what we are is it's a fully amateur league, whereas you say at the senior first 15 level when you're a senior club, which is the first five divisions of the club league, you've kind of got a bit of a spotlight on you as again a place where really high level players can develop. So what, in our case, Lens to Rugby, what they do is...

they really started encouraging their younger players who've just come out of school to widen the bandwidth. Traditionally players would have gone to just two or three clubs but now because the under -20s at international level is such a high performance environment, the expectation is if you want to make that squad you need to be playing senior men's rugby. And so what that's done is allowed other clubs who maybe wouldn't have had the access or been attractive to those kind of players, they've now sort of opened a bit of a market to clubs like us. So we're a second division team but we now I think have

We've had two players who are involved in the Leinster Academy, are involved in the recent U20 World Cup, Six Nations.

We've got now, think, four players on our squad who are going to be going through the Leinster sub -academy system, which is their under -twenties, pre -academy kind of year to see if they're of standard. we effectively take those guys in and expose them to a level of rugby that sort of helps them to mature and hone their game under completely different physical conditions, under completely different speed of game, and effectively turns boys into men in a completely different environment. Because I think we've all sort of seen that

the childhood prodigy and then you throw them in a certain environment and it doesn't quite work out for them. So they get a little bit more early exposure to the physical demands and how they adapt around it. They're incredibly well supported from a Leinster rugby perspective as well. The communication channels are open there to ensure that we're not burning them out, that our program works around their development in Leinster Academy.

And then at the other end, as you say, you've got players who have been involved in the Leinsters the Munsters Connaught Ulsters who have dropped out of those academies for whatever reason and are looking to still play at a relatively high level of the game, which can be a bit of a culture shock to some of the guys who go from such a professional environment. And don't get us wrong, we try to make it a professional environment as much as we can, but there's such a difference between it being your nine to five and then turning it to two nights a week.

So, like again, you're dealing with people with different perspectives. You know, I was, as you mentioned, I was in Australia recently and I was talking to the guys, but in advance of the final saying that, you know, there's something quite special about being an under twenties group because when you're an under twenties player, your perspective on life is so different. Rugby is the most important thing for the guys in university. So when you get to men's rugby, so many other things and women's rugby, adult rugby, so many things take over.

Carl (26:53)
Hmm.

Darragh (27:04)
you know, life, family, job, financial stress, and rugby has to be fun at its centre, right? You have to enjoy what you're doing.

So it can be a culture shock for these guys when they come down to us. But we do try to provide to facilitate an environment that makes them think that they're achieving a high level of performance whilst also layering in the perspective of this isn't life. It's really important to us. We really want to be successful. We want to make you better. But we also just want you to enjoy your time here as well and take away that pressure of the next contract, the next game. So that's the kind of caliber of player we deal

Carl (27:34)
Yep.

Darragh (27:42)
it's at Old Wesley and geographically there's so many clubs like us in this space so it's incredibly competitive for players and everyone's kind of hot on the radar of you know a player who might be playing in Galway

who was in university, you hear he's coming to Dublin for work and then naturally you've got a huge spell of demand into his phone trying to see what he might want to do from rugby perspective. So it's an incredibly high level. It's a great space to develop as a player, as a coach. And as I say, it offers probably that level of performance that gets as close as it probably can to the level that these guys get when they're involved in these academies or junior academies.

Carl (28:06)
Yeah.

So as you said, some of the lads sort of drop out of the system, end up in the All -Ireland League. Is there much of a set up for them to get back into the system or once you're out, you're out, you're lost? Is it a similar sort of way that you kind of, you've had your shot, it's not worked out and that's kind of where it's at.

Darragh (28:42)
Yeah, I think it's really unfortunate. And again, this is where you'd probably see a little bit of alignment because we only have four professional teams, right? I mean, in England, you guys have, I know it changes every year, but I think there's currently 10 professional teams. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe not the best example, but you know what I mean in that sense. So there's such a such a high

Carl (28:53)
It's getting closer and closer to four at this rate the way the RFU are running it.

Darragh (29:06)
supply of players for such a small amount of spaces and because there's such an emphasis on the schools program, deselection and the processes that need to happen in deselection are probably undervalued because there's always that underlying justification of well we've got the next generation coming through in 12 months time. What I think

Carl (29:25)
Right.

Darragh (29:28)
I personally think needs to happen and I've said pretty directly to some people involved. I all the provinces need to set aside 40 ,000 euro to employ somebody who's responsible for going around to monitor these guys who are deselected over a 12 month window.

whose sole job it is to interact with these players, whether it's assigned three or four or five players in a certain region, to interact with these players, speak to their coaches, go watch them play, work on behalf of a Leinster Rugby, a Connacht rugby, and just keep tabs and a record of what this player has done since they've been deselected. Because I think we can get into a scenario where some players miss the boat at 18, 19, 20. All of a sudden you see them playing in the All Ireland League, an incredibly high level standard of rugby at 23, 24, and you think, Jesus, where

this guy's avenues all closed four years ago. So I think you've either got to look at a basis where the deselection processes need to improve or you need to just align with other unions. Like as I say, the opportunity to go over to England and play a high level of rugby, Scotland, France, and say, look, just because somebody didn't make it in the Leinster Academy, which internationally is renowned as one of the...

Carl (30:24)
Hmm.

Darragh (30:36)
better academy setups in terms of how we prepare players to enter the professional game. Just because you didn't make it into Leinster doesn't mean there aren't avenues you can explore if professional rugby is what you really want to do. But I think sometimes we leave players on their own to make those decisions to do that research to build that network. And I think a huge amount more could be done.

to say look if you're serious about professional rugby just because it didn't work here doesn't mean it can't work somewhere else and you look at a sport like soccer and you think they're really advanced in that area and rightly so like it's understandable but I think I'd like to see a lot more evidence of learning of right okay well how can we support them and even a loan system of you know go away for 12 months we're going to monitor you we're going to put in really clear structures on how we're going to assess your performance and if this goes really well and we think we've made a mistake there is re -entry and being humble enough to say we've

Carl (31:24)
Hmm.

Darragh (31:25)
a mistake here, but we're prepared to own it, admit it, come back in, even if it's for

six weeks, eight weeks to just come back into the environment, see are you hitting the metrics that maybe you haven't hit previously and take it from there. It's a massive area because what you get internationally is a position where if your justification is that we've got a regeneration policy where every 12 months we have the next amazing crop of kids, then I think it's very difficult to explain how we get to a scenario where, don't get me wrong, incredible level of performance from Jonathan Sexton, but how there were so many question marks for so long around who replaces him.

the age gap between Johnny Sexton and Jack Crowley is about 16 -15 years. So that's how many under 18s, how many under 19 year groups have you seen where your justification for so long was, well we've always got somebody next year. Well you didn't for 15 years. So I just think there's a lot more that can be done around that.

Carl (32:04)
Yep.

I think you hit the nail on the head. think there's not enough people out there that are humble to say they made a mistake. I think there's probably a little bit too much of a tarnish around rugby when people put their hands up and say they've sort of fucked up. They don't want to say that. I think there's also a fear that a lot of clubs and rugby in general don't want to become like football where they start having to make those decisions at seven, eight, nine.

for kids that they're not good enough. I think if you start creating that conveyor belt, do you start making decisions with a kid that's eight? No, you look good, but you're not. We had Oli Curry on recently as well, and he said he went to a trials when he was 14 at London Irish. He was already part of the system. was six foot, he was six foot at the age of 12 or something stupid like that. And at 14's,

Academy system set up. He's gone in there and they measured him, weighed him, done all of that. No rugby. Just measured and weighed him. And then they measured him and said, no, you're never going to be big enough. He turned out to be six foot eight. And they said he wouldn't grow much more than the six foot he was at at 14. You're like, he obviously went on the plays, managed to play, but he fell out of love with the game as he kind of lost his way because there's too many parameters put on numbers.

rather than performance. as you say, if you drop out, because as we know, you might get to a certain age, you your dad's strength and at 18 you couldn't do much. Four years later, you've got a whole new strength again and

I saw the other day in football, there was like a free agents game that was set up by the FA. So players that have been released recently that wanted to come back into the UK, into the English game, they put on a friendly against Cambridge or something like that. So there's a full team set up of free agents to put themselves back in the shop window. There could be potentially something like that set up for each age group. If players are released in rugby, there's got, as you said, this

It's not, they might not fit the window for Leinster, but why can't they fit the window in France? There's four pro leagues over there. Why can't they go to Scotland? Why can't they go to Wales? Wales have just got a shitload more funding now. They're going to be spending money for silly money for next season They've got an extra three million to spend. So for each club, they've got to be somewhere that these players are good enough. If they're good enough to get into the Leinster Academy, Munster Academy, Cournaut, stuff like that, they must be something there.

it just might not be their time or their day that they played that game.

Darragh (34:57)
Yeah, I think you've just got to be really careful what the rules of the various unions are. So I was speaking to somebody who plays in the Pro D2 recently and I said, how is it that like, you've obviously come over from Ireland and you got recruited a certain way, but why am I not seeing the guys who have been the stalwarts of the All Ireland League for 10, 12 years? Why have these guys not been picked up? And look clearly over there, I don't know how familiar you may or may not be with it, but they have the GIF player rule system.

Carl (35:22)
Yeah, yeah.

Darragh (35:22)
Which, know, for maybe the listeners who don't know, it effectively says that, you know, if these guys have gone through or been developed in a professional academy, they're...

I think they can only have a certain number of those players in the book. So what the French clubs are really looking for is the bright under 18, under 19 prospects who haven't made or haven't signed the contract for the academy yet so that they can bring them over. And I think they classify them as technically French qualified players, not that they can represent France, France internationally, but they don't have, they're not quoted as having an overseas player because technically the France Academy or, know, Pau, Toulouse, Clermont Academy are going to develop those players.

Carl (35:48)
Okay.

Darragh (36:01)
But there's ways around this and as you say there's other unions that aren't as strict on these policies. I think one of the things that maybe we can look at is the All Ireland League final here is put on television every year and without fail the response to that game every year in the media is...

Carl (36:12)
Yeah.

Darragh (36:17)
What an outstanding game, a rugby incredibly wholesome watch, really good representative of representation of what's being done in the domestic game. We need more of this. And it's the same commentary every year without any change. So what I would be suggesting is that why aren't we putting, you know, fair enough, not the five divisions, but why are we not putting the spotlight on that top division of the All Ireland league more? Why are we not saying, you know, there's 18 rounds and we've got a, an Irish language channel over

on Terrestrial Television, why are we not getting 10 of these games a year and putting a spotlight on these players? You know, as I do with streaming, if these things go a little bit viral, you'd be amazed what opportunities can be opened to these guys. But it is the lack of support and people can't do it by themselves. I know there's that get up and go, make it happen for yourself, establish your own network. People can to a certain extent, but those same people are people who work nine to five. So there's a little bit of support that's required here.

Carl (37:16)
Is the clubs over there got the Veo cameras and stuff? Have they not sort of thought, do we put them on a live stream on YouTube and then that sort of grows and gathers its own legs? Is that a set up that the All Ireland League clubs have already or? Right.

Darragh (37:32)
depends on the club and the resources. At Old Wesley for example we have a YouTube channel where we stream the games and put them up and you can go back and watch them. It works both sides right? So you'd like to think that's being used for the right reasons for an AR community who can't necessarily get to games, particularly those who have gone overseas. It's an opportunity to in touch with the club.

From a player development perspective, might be an opportunity for a certain clip to go viral and from that, who knows. But then a more pressingly, it's an opportunity for other clubs to keep reviewing our games and look at trends. And as I say, we're a second division team. So we have clubs from the top division regularly coming to our players and trying to sell their product. So it can work twofolds on that.

Carl (38:14)
Yeah, but as you said though, if you can't, that's going to happen anyway. If that's put on the telly every week, people are going to see the good players. Even the top leagues are going to start losing players to that same sort of model. as you said, a lot of it's putting people in the right window. And I think that's something as a game, accessibility to other games outside of your own little bubble is so difficult. Now that obviously in the UK, the Premier

Premier Sports have now got the Champions Cup. I think it worked out, I think it looked about 90 pound a month for the average rugby fan to be able to watch all of the games that are available across all the platforms, 90 pound a month. There's not many people that can keep doing that. It's just that you're losing the accessibility to the most, it's kids that we want to watch the games. They're the ones that we want.

to create, we're already old and gray, getting past that point. We love the game. We can talk about it until the cows come home. It's the kids that we need to start getting to watch the game. Watch it, put a market, put a flag on a player that they love. Go and buy the shirt. I said this in an interview last week with Lexi. Players don't have a fixed number either, because we have a fixed number system. You can't have a player like.

De Pont wants 49 on the back of his shirt. You can't create a brand out of something that's going to, a player's number is going to change it. Everyone can put a name on the shirt, but it's the number that sticks with it. We don't have that within the game as well. can't, a kid can't go and get like the looky looky man over in Turkey. I went to Turkey and I went obviously in Spain and stuff. There's the looky looky man that's got all of the shirts, Haaland all of them. You don't see a single rugby shirt because

They haven't got the names. They haven't got the brand to put on it. I think if we open the door to that a little bit more, we might be able to sort of break that little window. Do you agree or am I missing the marker?

Darragh (40:16)
Yeah, I think there's a there's a real disillusion on where commerciality comes into different parts of the game. You people want to people think by raising ticket prices that drives revenue and drives revenue is interest and accessibility, as you say. And I'm a I'm a big believer. It's a huge source of frustration for me as a coach, for example, as you say, you're paying all these premium charges to get access to all these games and half the time because you're coaching your own games and doing analysis on these things. You just want to watch these things out of interest more than anything else. And they're totally inaccessible.

But as you say, more worryingly, it's the kids and it's, you I don't do it much anymore. But whenever I go back to the mini section of our club at under sixes to under 12s, just out of interest to pop in every now and again and see the work that our volunteers are doing. ask these kids who watched the game last weekend and they say, well, what game? And you ask players to name five players who play for Leinster, they can't. The last time they went to an international game, they don't go. So they don't have that connection with the professional game. And we've seen it in the women's

the tagline can't see, can't be. And that's becoming, that's getting worse in certain sectors. You know, the women's game in that isolated context is getting a little bit more positive, but the broader, the separation between the professional game and the community game is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And it's incredibly alarming because as I say, if these players don't know who their favorite player is, or they haven't seen something on TV that they really want to try in training or.

or they just don't know the rules. It's a coach's gift to have somebody go home, watch a game, come back with like, I saw this at the weekend, I'd love to do that, because that sets the trajectory, the inspiration for where your sessions might go. Not necessarily surrendering to the professional game or the kid, but understanding what interests them.

A lot of these kids are showing up to minis training sessions not knowing the rules of rugby. Simple things like the forward pass, like 101 back in the day, but they don't get it. They don't understand why. I've never heard of that before. Offsides. The referee mics on the television now where you can hear the referee explain the rules is gold dust to that kind of a generation.

Carl (42:12)
Yeah.

Darragh (42:25)
Because they see, you know, Owen Farrell doing it, it's like, brilliant. Well, I love Owen Farrell. So if he is to do that, well, then I want to learn to do that instead of, you know, in the moment in a game. And we look at them when they sort of shrug their shoulders in shock and they don't understand it in that moment. And we look at them like, what do you mean you don't understand it? So there's a huge gap between the professional game accessibility and inspiration and the community game is just getting wider and wider.

Carl (42:54)
Yeah, completely agree. And I think the women's games, obviously, they've done exceptional work on their own to put a brand on it. Alone in my hair, all of those that are actually out on social media, but they're having to do that hard graft themselves. But I think also some of that is kind of getting lost in where that product is. They're creating their own brand, which is brilliant, but they're not closing the gap on

As you said, that widening piece between the top level and the kids. The kids are getting excited, but they don't understand how they get to that piece as well. there's a real loss. And as I said as well, think rugby doesn't have enough heroes and villains in that sense. You don't create that pantomime villain. There's plenty of characters that can play that and people need people to love and people need

people to hate and that's how it creates that brand as well. I think there's too many times that people are just told, just get back in your box, just do your stuff, carry on, move forward. we don't, the shop windows closed to people making it accessible for people in that way as well. And it's quite alarming.

Darragh (44:15)
It's the same for players and coaches. So I was meeting with a coach there yesterday, somebody who's relatively green and since 22 years of age, started in last few years. And he said, well, what would your advice be in terms of knocking on the door? Because I was kind of just told to not make too much noise and go about your business quietly and see what happens. I was like, well, since when did anyone ever do anything for anyone because they were, you know, well behaved, quiet, incredible. Like you've got to rock the boat a little bit and not.

Carl (44:37)
nice.

Yeah.

Darragh (44:43)
disruptor is probably the best word I can use, not for the sake of upheaval, but I think you've got to be saying the reality is that this isn't working or this needs a change or I need this, how can you help me with that? You've got to be asking questions, but you can't be asking questions at the wall. You've got to be able to get in front of people whose job it is to listen to these things, whose long -term interest it is to work on these things, but it's not on the radar. So yeah, I totally, totally understand. It's

It's as though the people who fought for the professionalism of the game have taken it and now it's, well I got everything I wanted out of this.

Carl (45:20)
done it, that's it, they've done it, they don't need to worry about it, they've got the professional piece, it's down to somebody else to now make sure it actually becomes professional. They got the sticker over the top and now that's the rest of it. Because Ireland are making, from what I'm seeing, they're making good movements on the women's game, they've signed what, 37 players onto pro contracts, they've got a clear, they released a manifesto of a

Darragh (45:29)
Yeah, it's...

Carl (45:48)
clear path for development as well, which I started to read as well, which looks really positive. Have you seen that sort of being really rolled out over there as well? I know obviously you've just got back, but you must have got the comms being sent out to you.

Darragh (46:02)
Yeah, yeah, it's probably, again, in terms of where that's directly relevant to all Wesley, it's slightly different. Like we don't have an adult women's team. So our big thing is foundationally trying to set a real set up the core principles and structures that the underage is of underage 12s and 14s. And to be fair, have an incredible volunteer who you talk about a disruptor. mean, this guy is not afraid of being labeled as the guy who's constantly ringing you or constantly wants to meet you. But underpinning it all is a really exception.

brain of somebody who just wants the best and wants opportunities to be present for these young girls who he's talking about an incredible vision of.

the first ever old Wesley All Ireland League women's team which we've never had but like whether it's when it happens we don't know but like an incredible vision to work towards like that's a tangible that's something we could get really excited about. Look regarding the broader things you're talking about I mean look it's still not it's not perfect but but like there was never going to be an overnight fix on this thing.

Carl (46:51)
Yeah.

Nah, it's custom.

Darragh (47:04)
37 contracts that have been rolled out. Look, of that I would imagine there's, there's, and I stand to be corrected on this, so by all means I'm not speaking with facts, but I'm guessing there's the guts of something in the region of mid -twenties of those contracts are still going to be, you know, doing other jobs to be able to fund themselves financially. But the strides that have been taken in the last two, three years have, you know, have been, have been really meaningful. And you get guys like Greg McWilliams who were really brave and going into that Irish women's job and

kind of had to get blood on his nose to willingly to put a spotlight on the change and that he gets judged on performances on the pitch when in reality the

the upheaval of the structures behind it meant it was always going to be an impossible job. But somebody like him at least goes in when the organization is sinking and stops the rot. And so I think someone like him doesn't get enough credit for the work he actually did. And you're starting to see the domino effect now hopefully coming in of year on year, we're able to, you know, financially reward people for the work they do and the work they put in. And then at the grassroots create opportunities that

sustainable pathways for women to enter the professional game and also the amateur game. Like again, every, same as the men's game, not every girl, not every woman is going to be a professional rugby player, but can we create sustainable pathways that let them stay in the game and let them think that they're being exposed to a high level of coaching, to a competitive level of performance, to seeing environments that just are fun because it lets them do something that they're naturally good at and can be the

best version of themselves in. And there's so many things around that, like you've got to get the coaches who are prepared to buy into that, like, and coaching is an ego game, our coaches prepared to put their name on the line for those kind of initiatives. so there's, again, you won't know that until you actually go out and ask people and there's, you know, people can be very presumptuous on it. But being presumptuous doesn't help anyone because we have a problem now. And if you're going to be presumptuous, we have a problem tomorrow. So you've got to go and have the conversations with people, you know, sell the positives that

Carl (48:53)
Yeah.

Darragh (49:11)
are going with the clear challenges. And I think that's where the appointments have been made to the recent Ireland international team of the women's game. That really sets the pathway for, well, OK, there's a lot of people buying into this from the top down. And if we can get access to those people, they can reform the whole program, not just the international team.

Carl (49:31)
I think it's amazing to give that sign to the kids as well, as long as doesn't, that contract doesn't get taken away. There was obviously a lot of issues around the red roses previously where they were awarded the contract, then it was removed. You don't want to start falling into that situation where have the IRFU sort of jumped the gun, can they fund that long -term rather than saying here's the carrot and then pulling it away. They've got to make sure that continues long -term, but it's a really

positive step forward as well. you've got to look at the positives for what they're trying to do in that pathway system.

Darragh (50:07)
Yeah, and it'll be a patience game. you know, there'll be a huge amount of spotlight on the World Cup next year. People will make their own observations, how helpful or not, about that level of performance and where the women's game is going. But this is a long game. This is the next 10, 12, 15 years, what we can do in these programs, where the regeneration comes, because that senior international team is totally new. And so when those players are six, seven, eight years captain internationals, then that'll be your time to actually take stock on.

why these programs and these structures have worked are not the contract situation I think is positive because as you say, is it too early? it not? think to be fair, there was a lot of people shouting for a very long time for these contracts come to place and it's not because the IRFU are mean -spirited that they weren't getting the contracts exactly as you say. It's, know, if we give them, we have to be sure we can sustainably give them and you can't just even from an employment and employment law perspective, you can't just have the contract and then take it away because you you find just

Carl (50:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Darragh (51:06)
and all kinds of trouble then. So it's taken a while, it's getting there, it's not there yet. Hell of a lot more to do across loads of different sectors from not just from commercial, marketing, coaching, player development, but you're starting to see the green shoots at least.

Carl (51:24)
Yeah, it's brilliant. No, it's really positive. Because there's probably what, six? Six to eight years probably jump. The Red Roses have got on most of the rest of the six nations already. Obviously France are pretty much alongside it, but the rest of them are probably six to eight years. As you said, there's a development piece across all of them. So Ireland look like they're moving in the right direction. That's really positive to see. obviously you said you played

early on as a but realized that probably wasn't a long -term solution for you. Where did it where did you play who did you play with what has any of them gone on to make it any that should have gone on to make it but didn't did quite fall into the into the right pathway potentially.

Darragh (52:11)
Yeah, yeah, it's just so congested over here that you get so many people who miss the boat on these things. yeah, I realize if I didn't realize I wasn't going to make it, there was certainly enough people who were telling me I wasn't going to make it.

Carl (52:17)
Yeah.

Darragh (52:26)
from a much younger age. They obviously saw something earlier on that I was either stubborn enough to not see or whatever. But yeah, I, like I said, I came through the schools program here, went to Gonzaga College, which probably more recently has had a bit of success. They won the senior cup two years ago for the first ever time. But when I was involved there, they probably weren't investing in the rugby program as much as maybe other schools were. Would have been competing in the top tier competition, but traditionally a quarterfinal kind of team if they got to a semi

Carl (52:43)
well.

Darragh (52:56)
final. was an overachievement or an easy draw kind of thing. There was always a cynicism around success. So I'd spent two years involved with their senior first 15 over there. And then when I went to uni, I knew if I went to uni I'd probably play rugby with the uni team. So University College Dublin went straight into their under 20s program and kind of fluctuated as a first and second player.

When it was first, it was a bit like feeling like a celebrity because you're surrounded by guys who have now gone on to such great things. So, Will Connors, Hugo Keenan.

Jimmy O 'Brien, Greg Jones who as of recently was with Ulster Rugby, Kieran Frawley. So it certainly makes you feel a little bit better about yourself when you're playing with guys like this and I'm listening them off. I'm sure if you asked them they certainly wouldn't remember playing with me. But yes, unbelievable memories of getting to play with that caliber of player and be part of a certain level of success we achieved and getting to go on and see what they've done in the game.

I suppose looking back as a coach and saying, always knew X will be a brilliant player and it's, been fascinating. Those guys have gone on to great things and there's so many others who you look back and say, Jesus, what happened? if only.

Carl (54:19)
Was it obvious when you played with them? Could you tell how good they were then? you thought that unless, apart from maybe a serious injury, there was no way that they weren't gonna make it. Is that where it was at or?

Darragh (54:30)
But I don't know if that's always the case because I think like again, we were playing under 20s club rugby and that's at a certain level. That's not the that's not the platform for saying he's definitely going to be a professional. Right. So I was trying to explain a little bit earlier.

Carl (54:36)
Bye.

Yeah.

Darragh (54:46)
Richie Murphy, who was involved with Leinster and the Ireland international team as an assistant went to the under 20s to be head coach and he was very, very clear with all the clubs and all the players in the development pathways. If you have any ambition of playing under 20s international rugby, you must be playing senior men's rugby in Ireland. The international team was moving from a developmental team to a performance team. So the

Carl (54:53)
Mm

Darragh (55:08)
The remit there was if you couldn't stand out in men's rugby or certainly, you know, be seen to be adapting to the demands of men's rugby, you weren't going to make it. these guys would have been involved in Leinster under 18s, under 19s, and then they come and play under 20s club rugby. And it was nearly a step down for them because the gap of player on that pitch would be phenomenal. Again, I can't stress enough the gap and standard between Will Connors and myself. So, look, they were always the bright sparks and you always knew like, again, Hugo Keenan

was actually probably a little bit of a late bloomer in terms of Lenster IDing him as a as the successor to what it was Rob Kearney but like whenever you would play with these guys in that competition yeah they would be the standard guys you'd always be kind of waiting to see a team sheet anxiously to see was was Jimmy gonna play was Hugo gonna play

But the issue that I think again, we had for so long was the players weren't accessible. like the guys who would have been selected for a Lensier Academy program or an under 19s program were selected on the basis that they had been observed, watched, assessed, and engaged with over a 15 game period in a season. And then they end up going to universities, getting in these programs and their minutes are so managed then. University College Dublin might get them for five games a year.

Carl (56:13)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Right, okay.

Darragh (56:24)
It was always hard to know, is this the kind of player who needs to be playing every week to get a good flow and feel? Is he somebody who is capable of playing a one -off game, dropping out, developing, coming back? In short, he always knew they were incredible players. He always knew they would go on to certainly higher standards than the under -20s program. I just think you always had that question mark of, they play men's 15? If they play men's 15, will they stand out?

Carl (56:52)
Yeah.

Darragh (56:53)
Yeah, some with others it was clear and obvious like again, Hugo Keenan and I just remember watching and thinking I don't know how he's not currently involved in a setup. But then again,

Carl (57:05)
That's probably where you went wrong, Darragh just standing there watching him play. might have... rather the different way.

Darragh (57:11)
I think where I went wrong was being 12 years of age and being 13 stone. That's where I went wrong. I won't blame my parents, that would be very harsh.

Carl (57:26)
So the players that didn't make it, that should have, was there many that you can sort of roll off the top of your head?

Darragh (57:34)
I think you're always looking at guys who, again it's such a congested system these are the guys who you're kind of half wondering God if only there was a network that could have looked at you and said you could go somewhere else. So somebody like a guy like Bobby Sheehan who's actually the brother of Dan Sheehan

in the Irish hooker. He was somebody who was in the Leinster pathways dropped out, wasn't given an academy contract, went straight into the senior men's team starting club captain. He'd be kind of drafted back into Leinster, but really for nothing more than to kind of be a spare body. And then he was kind of, yeah, yeah. And then kind of told, know, would you consider moving position? And you just start messing around with guys who are already ready -made products. And if you don't have a place for them, that's fine. But like,

Carl (58:06)
tackle pad.

Darragh (58:17)
them go yeah let them go and do something else so like he he was so impressive because i just think he's maintained a level of performance over such a sustained period of time that makes you think that somebody somewhere if they had access to this competition would have picked you up by now and and

Carl (58:18)
be honest. Yeah.

Yeah.

Darragh (58:35)
you the other name that probably comes to mind is a guy called Emmett Burns who has probably hit the spotlight in Ireland a bit recently. He was a quite accomplished rugby player at underage, was kind of again kind of ignored by the Leinster system for a few years, was in and out in terms of the underage stuff. But when he came to the university team, this was the kind of guy that would always play to the level he was asked to play at. He'd play above himself. He'd play under 20s and somebody would say, is he ready for men's? And he'd go to men's and he'd knock

the park like he was just somebody that could play well everywhere I

and had all the just had all the performance demands that you would you would you'd love to see from a loose head prop like incredibly dynamic, powerful, agile, set piece absolutely dominant. yeah, again, somebody who you just thought there's just got to be room for someone like him now. Unfortunately, he fell on illness and had a tough couple of years and thank God he's back playing rugby again. And that's given him I think a fresh perspective on the power of the community game. And he's now at his local club that really

behind him and it's incredibly inspiring story and but someone like that again I think you know has the Irish system failed him well I'd say the Irish system will tell you they haven't failed at all because they have that regeneration of player but you just would like to think that you know that we're close enough to England we're close enough to Scotland we're close enough to France there should there should be a more accessible information there and and where there's no excuse for that is where you're starting to see Irish coaches same as England working in

other countries. And so the networking should be there. you I think, to be fair, we had a player come to us at Old Wesley, who was involved in the Pau Academy. But that was only because the, at the time, the director of that Academy was Irish. And it happened to be, it wasn't a deliberate networking attempt. It was just happened to be a phone call. we have an Irish second row here who, who were, who were probably not going to keep on. And somebody tells somebody who tells somebody who tells somebody and next thing there's, well, hang on, we could do with a second row. I think you can, if you

Carl (1:00:18)
Hmm.

Right.

Darragh (1:00:38)
unconsciously have those conversations that make impact. I wonder, imagine the impact you could have if you actually invested in them consciously.

Carl (1:00:47)
Yeah, I think that's a problem across the game. is not, it seems to be a closed book on availability and then those players that haven't made it. think that if there was an open tool of system and I think that football obviously makes that works very well. The scouting system is very in depth and obviously football manager, a lot of teams seem to be using that. find...

players that nobody knew of and we don't have that in rugby because there isn't that brand, there isn't that availability for kids to sit and play rugby manager instead of being out on the paddock. Those technical analysis pieces that we don't have in the game doesn't allow people to know. As you said, if somebody knows somebody that knows somebody that might get the door open, that's brilliant, but that will only go so far if somebody's in a role that's going to make a decision.

Darragh (1:01:39)
That's the thing. And again, I was talking to somebody about this recently, your CV really, in certain levels, CV doesn't matter anymore. It's all about presence. Have you, have you been seen? Have you been heard of? Have you been talked about? Have you, have you rocked the boat? mean, again, we talk about the game as a, as, theater, like people can say what they want about Eddie Jones, but he gets eyes in the sport. So, you know, and, and maybe the game needs more of that. You know, you'd rather be a

Carl (1:01:47)
Yes.

100%.

Darragh (1:02:05)
rather be a hated villain than an unknown in many ways. And that's not disparaging about Jones. I've talked to him once or twice. Personally, he's been very good to me. But it's the notion of just being okay with the fact that you can put yourself out there and not wait for opportunities to come. so yes, we need players and coaches to be more proactive in terms of how they be accountable of their own development. But Christ, we need the unions to be a lot more, I suppose, clear.

their communication that we want you to promote yourselves and we want to help you promote yourself and even again amazing like you look you look at Australia being over there for the last four months like at their under 20s section their seconds players at under 20s have agents and it's

Carl (1:02:54)
We're ready?

Darragh (1:02:54)
And I remember thinking, I remember saying to them, why did these kids do having agents? And again, a lot of these agents work off commissions. They're not doing it because each player gives them a fixed rate. It's because if something can happen, something can happen. We'll deal with it if we can get you something. I remember thinking, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard of. Where have these kids got the entitlement that they're at a certain level when their playing career would suggest they're not. But as the point was made to me, at least if they have an agent, somebody's talking about them.

Carl (1:03:25)
Yeah, very good point.

Darragh (1:03:26)
So it's, you know, it's, I'm not saying it's all perfectly the right way to go about things, but you know, the one thing you can say is at least you won't get lost in the system. People may make their mind up on you, but at least you have that information early and you can make the decision of, maybe rugby isn't going to be for me.

Carl (1:03:40)
Yeah, so how was Oz? Obviously what took you out there? know that you popped out there to sort of, you badgered, was it Sydney you said? You sort of got on the case, got a door open and got yourself out there for four months. How did that all come about?

Darragh (1:03:59)
Yeah, I've wanted to coach abroad again for a long time. Having done it in England, I was always keen to do it in the Southern Hemisphere. And so I kind of saw, you know, some some help for some people here, didn't come to fruition. And so I kind of had to be just proactive about it.

Again, I would stress that you talk about putting yourself out there, and I'll just touch on this quickly. It's anyone who coach or player who doesn't have LinkedIn, like really should get it. And I'm not talking about the newsfeed, because I think a lot of that can be, you know, people patting themselves in the back. But in terms of, you know, a point of accessibility of getting in touch with people and being able to make connections and build relationships and get on the phone. Like when people realize all you're asking for is their time, they're incredibly generous.

Carl (1:04:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

Darragh (1:04:46)
So if there's a takeaway from this conversation, I would really recommend that to any of your listeners. yeah, so I used it as a bit of a platform. went on websites of all the ShootShield clubs and the ShootShield is their primary club competition out there. And I made a point of getting all the contact information for, think, eight out of the 10 director of rugby is just from a geographical perspective and sent them all emails. Three got back to me two ended up going for a little bit deeper and

we landed on a really good match at the University of Sydney. And so that it came about really proactively. I left Ireland the day after our playoff semi -final.

I stayed out there for four months so I missed the preseason over in Australia. I'd missed the first five games but again because as I mentioned previously the games are back to back to back to back I think we had a series of eight games in a row one weekend off six games in a row one weekend off finals.

Carl (1:05:32)
Nice.

Wow.

Darragh (1:05:48)
So I really got over there for the exciting part of the season and got to stay until the end. it was, yeah, it was amazing. It was really eye opening around like what some of the clubs are doing proactively to set a different direction on the game model. Rugby Australia has obviously had a huge amount of change going on in the last decade, really. So I clubs are being really responsible around how they're developing players. They're not relying on

Carl (1:05:52)
Yeah.

Darragh (1:06:15)
the pathways, the academies, the union anymore. So it was interesting to walk into a club where I'll be very, very honest, it was a completely different game model and style of play that I would have been ever used to and that I probably would have been comfortable coaching. But

Carl (1:06:28)
Mm

Darragh (1:06:29)
A. They had reasons for it, which I totally understood their reasons for. And the second thing was, we clarified this early doors, you've clearly got a framework guys, and I'm totally going to respect that. But within that framework, can we look at, you know, X, Y, Z? And they were just incredibly open minded to that. And it was, it was, I found it to be very merit based, you know, in the first couple of sessions, I asked to do a couple of things. They let me go about my business. We saw some positive change and it became a case of, Darragh, can you do more of that? Or can you do

that with this group? Can you present on this? I just, I really enjoyed it. I thought it was a phenomenal experience for me in terms of seeing that you don't necessarily need to align with the style of play to be able to have an impact and that you can also evolve the style a little bit and add a different perspective. And then the big thing I took away from it was the players. Like I've never seen such a young group of players be so vocal.

to keep each other so accountable and then coming back to Ireland I'm now seeing Christ do we have any leaders in these groups because nobody talks the same way they do in Australia.

Carl (1:07:33)
Yeah.

Darragh (1:07:35)
So I absolutely loved it again. Each week has a bit of jeopardy to it when it's that league format, which structures your week. really puts a focus on, you know, once you've reached a certain technical and tactical threshold as a coach, understanding in the space of two training sessions, the impact you can have from a mindset psychological perspective, being so clear with your messaging.

the stuff that I wouldn't have done as much around just with the presentations and making them visually really pleasing and clear. A huge amount taken away from it and again full credit to the university, they're doing fantastic work over there and all three under 20s teams in there ended up getting to the playoffs which was fantastic.

Carl (1:08:15)
That's quality. So is there a clear sort of separation from club rugby over there or was there, is the university included into the club system and the lads that have come across from, so was there just loads of lads from across Australia or all Sydney lads that have been there and, or they sort of everyone's come together and as you said, there's leaders, natural leaders within that system. Do you think that's, were the players more?

more vocal because they've got more ownership of their roles. Do you think that they don't rely on the coaches to all of that? It's down to them to create a leadership group within the system.

Darragh (1:08:53)
Yeah, I think again, so what you're always going to get with the university program, working with young players, like even at the men's team, you're operating with a very young demographic of player.

But what they, what the university had was a coach development initiative as well, where we were kept in check and we had a reference point to go to and we went through leadership performance profiles out of hours. And so again, it wasn't just a case of I developed as a coach because I was on pitch. It was a lot of the off pitch stuff I did with the director of rugby and some of the wider network he had that.

Carl (1:09:07)
brilliant.

Darragh (1:09:25)
that kept me in check over there. yeah, there's a huge amount of responsibility that goes into making sure that these guys own their performance. So making an extra five minutes allowed in your review for a player to come up with clips. what we would do with, if I was clipping up the lineouts, I would say, well, I'll do the line out preview of the opposition and I want X, you're gonna do the line out review. Now I would still do a review and have clips ready and reserve, but it would be an incredible collaborative experience.

because they would show me their clips on a Monday morning. I then see did I have them? Why didn't I have them? What did I like about them? And so then you get on the phone with that player say here's what I really, really liked. A couple of points he made, which I'd slightly alter. He'd then come back to me. I said, have any questions? They come back to you maybe with a bit more context as to why they said what they said. And we'd effectively collaborate about here's how we think this should be presented. So they then get, they're really clear because what kids hate is they hate uncertainty around it.

Carl (1:10:20)
Mm -hmm.

Darragh (1:10:25)
I say this, what's the reaction going to be? And so the exposure they would get to us, they would get from us as coaches to reaffirm that what they were saying was correct. They can now stand up in front of a room of people with really real confidence to know that, the guys who are saying the direction of the room think what I'm saying is correct. So that's all the justification that I need to have the confidence to vocalize this. And then when you change that player every week in terms of who's presenting, it's, it had a really powerful impact.

Carl (1:10:47)
Yeah, it's brilliant.

Darragh (1:10:52)
And then they're just so much more comfortable around each other. again, culturally, it was a massively eye opening experience because what Ireland have set the direction for in recent years is understanding how to make rugby players better from technically and tactically. Real alignment with the professional programs, a real understanding of what the, for want of a better term, the curriculum looks like to get players to a certain level.

Maybe what we've not placed as much of a value on at the high performance level is the time you need to invest in relationships. And it's hard. It's two nights a week. It's a game on the weekend. And where do you get the time to get these guys in a room? But...

Carl (1:11:21)
Yeah.

Darragh (1:11:27)
You've got to set some sort of a space where players can be vulnerable around each other. without going into too much detail on the players own personal stories, we would have a slot at the end of a review called Hardship, which would just be on a Monday. And every week one player would stand up and speak a little bit about their background, their story, where they've experienced hardship in their life. And look, some of the stories would be brutal.

Carl (1:11:52)
Hmm.

Darragh (1:11:52)
really, they'd be high opening and others would be very much guys saying, look, I'm not going to pretend I've had a particularly challenging life, but here's probably where it's been the most challenging. so players know then a little bit more about each other. They get really close with each other that they're comfortable saying these things in front of them. They know it's a safe space.

just makes those those those instances where you need to be hard on each other or support each other in a rugby pitch it puts it onto perspective because you've kind of buried yourself naked in front of group of people in a much more you know scary setting like as a coach I can get up in a room in front of people and talk about technical competency and tactical direction for a season no problem but but being a bit more open around

Carl (1:12:25)
Yeah.

Open up about you. Yeah, that's it.

Darragh (1:12:36)
this is me and this is my insecurity and this is my challenge and that's the scary thing to do. So it's incredibly inspiring seeing the players do that and I would have probably liked to be there for the start of the pre -season to see how they got to a point where the players led on that and to what level the coaches. But the cool thing about the network I've now established is that there are conversations that we can be fluid with. I can jump on a Zoom on a video call with them and say, never asked you about this, we're coming into our pre -season.

Carl (1:12:45)
Yeah, it's amazing.

Darragh (1:13:04)
whether it's next year, really enjoyed that facet of what you did, how to just start it. It was really, really different.

Carl (1:13:11)
Yeah, brilliant. Have you got plans to try and get away more for obviously get this season out of the way? there plans to try and go and see other parts like America or anything like that?

Darragh (1:13:21)
Yeah, look, I'd love to. So at the minute, it's logistically a little bit challenging. So my girlfriend flew out to Australia a few months before me. She's staying there because they're coming into their summer. So I couldn't drag her kicking and screaming to the airport. She wants to do one more summer out there. We'll take stock at some stage during the year. I would, I'd certainly love to see a bit of the world before life gets a little bit.

too serious I suppose and bogs you down in one or two areas. at the same time I'm a big believer in, I hate the word project, but I like the contingency plans that go into an organization in one year and you hope to see the fruits of that labor the next. This is year three of where I've been now in the various organizations and we're hoping to get a real sense of what three years of work looks like. It's a pretty good representation.

Carl (1:13:44)
Yeah, yeah.

Darragh (1:14:08)
you're able to sort of see right have I kind of done all I can do here or is there scope to really layer on more.

But yeah, the first thing is to probably try and get a scenario where we're in the same place for a little while and after that, take stock. like, it's such a big world out there. It's a small world and a big world at the same time. You know, I've been on tours with Africa, Canada. I've now seen Australia, Fiji. I'd love to do New Zealand. I'd love to do Japan, America, as you say. That league's been around for so long now.

and some of its change can still happen in it to elevate it more. So getting a better understanding of what needs to happen there would be interesting. It's one of those careers that allows for it, but if you want to get the traditional 40 years out of it, there's no rush either.

Carl (1:14:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, 100%. What's the targets for old Wesley this season then? Are they in a good position for the league ahead?

Darragh (1:15:03)
Yeah, I think if you look at the squad, we inherited, certainly when I came on board, we had a bit of a squad where guys were kind of filtering out, making it known that this season would be their last. And so we lost a of key players as well. It's always the danger when you're in the mix for those promotion spots and then you don't achieve it. You get those really ambitious players who say, the intention was to play in the top division and we haven't achieved it. So I'm on a go and do that. So two years ago, we had a massive transition of the squad. We've also probably changed our recruitment strategy a little

and

really establish a good relationship with Leinster Rugby, which is giving us access to maybe a younger demographic of high potential player, as opposed to, you know, maybe looking at guys who have achieved high potential and we know what level of performance to get, but also know that there is a ceiling. Look, the ambition of the club is certainly to try to get promoted out of the league this year. And that's something we'd say every year. It's, know, if you can get yourself into the top four and that's the playoff spots, you you get, you give yourself the opportunity. It's something in the

previous two years I've been involved we've achieved and we haven't quite got over the line last year very very close so that is the ultimate goal and but but again I think sometimes people can voice their goals and

think that by saying something it's going to trigger a certain behaviour in people's heads. It's all about how we action things week to week. There would have been a pretty strong review process that went on last year. I listened to Stuart Lancaster recently saying the trick is knowing when changing before you need to change. So that's what we're in the middle of at the minute. Again, probably having that younger demographic of players makes it a little bit easier because these are guys who tend to be a little bit

Carl (1:16:19)
standard.

Darragh (1:16:44)
more coachable. Still guys who are learning the game, they're getting exposed to really good quality coaching in the Leinster setup as well. the ambition would be to be in those, know, amongst those promotion spots and from there, you know, once you've given yourself the opportunity, you're hopefully relying on the quality that got you there to produce when it matters most. But the big thing about a seventh, eighth month season is just to make sure that we're really, really good and responsible off the pitch as well as on it.

medical physio team need to look after the players because naturally that charge you might have between the first 15 and second 15 is such that if you lose three or four key players that's all that needs to happen. So it looked very exciting and there's nine other teams that are going to say the same thing but we're incredibly ambitious and I don't think there's any problem vocalizing that goal because it puts pressure on us to go out and make sure we're delivering it week to week.

Carl (1:17:36)
Action it and get it done, yeah, 100%. Been an absolute pleasure getting you on, Darragh. Hopefully we can catch up later in the season, see how you guys are getting on as well. Bit of a debrief of what you've actually probably been able to bring back across from Oz, see whether people have been willing to accommodate what you've learned over there. be really interesting and it's just been an honor to have you on, mate, and hopefully shine out a little bit.

more light on Irish rugby and the All -Ireland League. Hopefully we can get a few more that are willing to jump over as well. Jump on the pod, promote it further, be really, really positive. And it's a great league that by the sounds of it, not many people get the opportunity to have a peek into. So really appreciate your time, mate.

Darragh (1:18:23)
Yeah, look, I appreciate it. Thanks very much for letting me sort of delve into it a little bit deeper and look, keep up the great work you're doing. As I say, you're shining a light on areas of the game that need exposure, that need support, that need people talking about them. And that's where we start with people talking about them. So, look, keep up the great work, mate. It's always enjoy listening to the pods.

Carl (1:18:41)
I appreciate it. Cheers, Darragh. Cheers,

Rugby Through The Leagues (1:18:43)
Well that brings yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast to an end. I just want to say thank you to everyone that's joined. I hope everyone enjoyed this week's pod.

Darragh Coyle was another great guest. He opened the door about rugby and Ireland, his little trip to Australia and what was done over there at the University of Sydney. We also managed to find out about some of the players he managed to roll around with. Obviously he realised he wasn't at that level and still made himself get involved in rugby as well and is now hopefully forging a path of a career for him. Still sounds like there's a lot of doors to open within the set up and how they do everything but there's no different to any part

of normal rugby for us unfortunately. So next week's episode we're actually going to shine that spotlight on the women's game. Obviously this is ahead of the start of the PWR so we've got Matt Merritt on who's a semi -pro rugby fan but also a massive advocate for the women's game. Does a lot of writing for a lot of papers, rugby paper pass, all of this sort of thing. we actually get to open the door onto the women's game, the start of the PWR and actually get to understand

what makes that whole system tick as well because Matt's got some massive insights, writes a lot for it and possibly some predictions for the season as well so it'd great to find out what Matt's opinion of all that is as well and who's going to shine a light on the game this year and obviously he's leading up to the 2025 World Cup.

we want to try and keep shining that light as well so we've got some other big names within the Women's game lined up as well so can't wait to get that one out next week for you. Matt's another top bloke, Pompey boy as well so it's always good to have Pompey lads on so really good to get him on next week. Talk about the Women's game ahead of the PWR release so obviously everyone that's joined, everyone that's getting involved still I just want to say thank you so much and goodbye.