Episode 18 - The Tom Blackburn Interview - From Haslemere to Navy Director of Rugby

Tom Blackburn, Director of Rugby at Rugby Navy, discusses his rugby journey and the development of Navy rugby. He highlights the importance of performance-based selection and the need for a larger player pool. Tom also mentions the improvements made in the Navy rugby system, including professional training camps and a focus on strength and nutrition. He discusses the challenges faced by the women's team and the efforts to close the gap with the army. Tom emphasizes the role of external coaches and the allocation of budget for coaching support. He also mentions the strong development of the under-23s team and the affiliation with clubs like US Portsmouth and Devonport Services. In this conversation, Tom Blackburn discusses his role as the Director of Rugby for the Royal Navy Rugby Union and the challenges and opportunities that come with it. He talks about the importance of character over talent and the goal of developing players both on and off the field. Tom also mentions the various teams the Navy plays against, including civilian clubs and university teams, and the scouting process to identify new talent. He emphasizes the need for adaptability and flexibility within the team and the importance of building a strong team culture.

Transcript

Carl (00:13)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep a shining light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I am Carl and thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod, keep in touch with us on our social as well, just so that we can make sure what we're doing is actually impacting the game.

and you guys are enjoying it, there's no point of us carrying on doing the same shit that people don't wanna listen to. So keep in touch, let's keep growing it and making sure we share the love. As I keep mentioning to those that are obviously new to the pod, at the minute, the intros and outros are a little bit loose. I've traveled around a little bit, seeing family, et cetera, et cetera. So being able to record it as and when I can.

For those that have obviously been with us, thank you for keeping listening to that on repeat. We've managed to get the new director of rugby, Tom Blackburn on from Navy Rugby. Tom, good lad, really, really nice bloke to actually share his time with as well.

He's got a wealth of knowledge within the game, wealth of knowledge down through Navy rugby as well. Wants to really make a difference, wants to close that gap as well.

with the army, the men's are pretty much there. He obviously wants to return some of the pumpings that he had at Twickenham back in the day. So there's a real excitement there. Really good youth under 23 system coming through as well, which is really promising for Navy rugby. And also how he's gonna be able to put the plan in place to close the gap on the women's game as well because

It's quite sizable even in Tom's words. It's a sizable gap at the minute, but I can't wait to see the plan that he puts together for that. Top bloke, great rugby guy, and a great interview. So let's just get on with

Carl (02:08)
well, this week we've managed to get Tom Blackburn on, who is now the director of rugby for the Royal Navy. So I managed to see that on, I think it was Instagram, or somebody messaged it and tapped a couple of people up. Obviously, Polly was on the first pod.

I was like, Polly, can you work your magic? And we've now got Tom on. Tom, thank you so much for your time, mate. I know you're a busy man and obviously got a new role to get your teeth stuck into, but I really appreciate your time. Can you go through with everyone your rugby journey, what you've been, where you are, and obviously, well, obviously you're in the mob as well, so I'm sure we can find some decent stories to pour out like Polly did.

Tom Blackburn (02:59)
Yeah, no, well, thanks for having me on, Carl. I really, really appreciate it. Yeah, so I guess rugby for me came a bit later than some of them. I wasn't from a rugby family. My dad was into rowing and didn't really have a rugby connection. I grew up in a village in Surrey and footy was the sport of choice for everyone. So I tried footy for a long time and failed.

Carl (03:12)
Okay.

I think every rugby player's been there, mate.

Tom Blackburn (03:26)
 exactly. So I think the coach just walked up to her dad and said, he's crap. He's not the right sport for him. So, yeah, so he took took down to Haslemere rugby club. And, yeah, he took me up to the clubhouse and sort of said, said,  know, this is Tom. He's, you know, 10, I think it was was under  so it must have been nine at the time. And they said, yeah, just head over there. You know, this is the coach and, you know, they'll get him welcomed in. And that was it.

Carl (03:36)
Ha ha.

Aye, aye, aye.

Tom Blackburn (03:55)
I think one of the joys of rugby is just how welcome in the club it can be. You've got the clubhouse, you've got a focal point and that was it. Welcome with open arms, found my niche, made some mates at a young age and that was it really, had the bug. Everything I'd missed from footy I found in rugby. So that was kind of it and then stayed in the area, grew out of Haslemere a bit.

Carl (04:13)
Eh.

Tom Blackburn (04:24)
end up going up to Guildford. Which again, I can't, yeah, it's a little way out of the road.

Carl (04:27)
 Yeah, well, it's not bad standard either. Guilford's Guilford for those, the northerners that are listening. Guilford's not a bad sort of rugby rugby spot to be part of. Haslemere a bit of a leafy, leafy suburb in it really is a little village. Lovely part of the world. But yeah, obviously most people sort of peel up towards Guilford if they want to play to a level. Was that because you wanted to play a higher standard or just you?

Tom Blackburn (04:53)
Yeah, just I think the sort of duty age group I was with at Haslemere was sort of running out. You know, players were getting a bit thin on the ground and I was sort of I was on that Colts fringe and I ended up getting pushed to play a couple of senior rugby games a bit early. I remember getting bent up in a scrum, getting myself in a rather uncomfortable position and thinking I'm not ready for this. Not ready for big boy rugby yet. So, so yeah, I ended up getting into the Colts at Guilford.

Carl (05:07)
Okay.

Nah.

Tom Blackburn (05:21)
and again really good environment and that kind of helps spur me on and get me ready for senior rugby which was good. Yeah then where was it? So I kind of signed up to the Navy and the mob when I was pretty young, I must have been, what was it, 15? So I went, I was sponsored to go through Sixth Form College. So it was a pretty cool experience, basically private school for poor kids. Yeah, with the mob picking up most of the bill.

Carl (05:39)
Okay.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (05:50)
So I went to a place called Welbeck College, which was, you know, typical private school, you know, like Harry Potter style, amazing place. You know, the rugby pitch was like the old, the old estate lawns in front of the house, you know, amazing backdrop. You couldn't have a better place to play against rugby. And yeah, there, that, you know, I guess school rugby takes you up a notch, you know, it was boarding school, so you were there all the time, just fully immersed in it, training.

Carl (05:50)
Nose.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (06:19)
four or five times a week. Daily Mail Cup was a good competition. So yeah, that kind of took it on. And then eventually going into the Navy, I got picked up there and started in the Navy squad. It was under 21s at the time, but I think they increased the age a bit and took people to under 23s, which is kind of where it stuck for the last few years.

Carl (06:21)
Yeah.

Nice.

Hmm.

Tom Blackburn (06:44)
But yeah, nice straight to that and Navy rugby's been pretty good.

Carl (06:47)
So how did that happen? Do they sort of queue queue as you're coming through the gates at rally Raleigh do you like sort of put your hand up and somebody say, I'll play rugby and there's trials or is it just whoever's not pissed that piss from the night before gets roped in? Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (07:03)
Yeah, well it's a bit of all sorts. Yeah, I suppose it is a bit of all sorts. There's a few people who are looking out. So I was lucky enough one of the coaches at school had a connection in the Navy Rugby team and he sort of said, you know, sort of nudged me in the right direction. But now, you know, in terms of Navy Rugby, we have people looking out for players, looking at CVs past experience when they go through the recruitment centres and go through the

Carl (07:17)
Okay.

Yep.

Tom Blackburn (07:32)
the gates at Raleigh and Dartmouth, looking after people who've got a bit of calibre, obviously in the background. Otherwise, you know, people just stick their hand up and go, by the way, I used to play, yeah, yeah, County or whatever. And then they generally get pushed towards the team and get a look. And then we'll see. Some of those leads turn out to be very good. Some of them turn out to be very bad.

Carl (07:34)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I used to play here or there, yeah.

us.

 Well, one of them's not turned out too bad, he just won the Prem so he didn't do too bad.

Tom Blackburn (07:59)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah the odds the odd diamond. Yeah, so yeah, that's kind of it

Carl (08:05)
So Navy Rugby, do you still sort of dabble outside? Obviously you were at Gosport for a little bit back in the day.

Tom Blackburn (08:12)
Yeah, so yeah, during the Navy stuff, it was always in the other 23 years, it was always been pre Christmas. So that's September to December window and then you have the rest of the year. And that was weekends. And then the like the full senior stuff was always after Christmas. But it was generally generally on a Wednesday. So until you get to the sort of inter services. So it was good to have a club to continue to develop. And I was based at Sultan So I was playing in

Carl (08:32)
Alright.

Tom Blackburn (08:41)
I was was at Gosport and Fareham and when I was down at Culdrose I played a bit for Redruth and then eventually I moved across to up on Southwick Hill and moved across to Havent, the arch enemies at the time of Gosport.

Carl (08:55)
Yeah.

Still are, mate, but yeah, obviously they've accelerated away. So I had Will Knight and Lewis Osborne on last night. I was interviewing them. So obviously these are a few, I'm a few pods ahead at the minute because I've got a couple of months off. So I'm just trying to get everything coordinated. So I had them on last night and I've had a really good chat with them, really, really top blokes. Obviously done a big bit and I have to still say I'm like.

Tom Blackburn (09:06)
brilliant.

Carl (09:21)
I fucking hate it, obviously being a Gosport boy that they're doing so well, but where credit's due, what they've done is different, different gravy at the minute, and they've really pushed the club forward, so fair play to them. They have.

Tom Blackburn (09:32)
Yeah, and they've done it right as well. I mean, everyone always looks at Avent and goes, bloody hell, they must be throwing some cash around or, you know, the ringers or all of that. And then you look at it and you go, well, it's just not true. It's just a good bunch of lads who have stuck together for a long time. They've been consistent and, you know, ultimately it's taken its time, but they're there now and yeah, it's good.

Carl (09:44)
No, it's not.

 well as I was talking to Will and Lewis about it last night and Oz, that pitch turned their fortune as well, being able to not have to cancel games and cancel training because of the rivers of Havant they used to call the pitches they said. So it's fair play to them. So obviously you went over to Havant Have you given up now? Is that sort of your journey ended or are you still... still...

Tom Blackburn (10:10)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was.

Carl (10:20)
Dotting around out in Cormoran that.

Tom Blackburn (10:21)
Yeah, no, my civilian rugby career is finished. When I got my next job down in Cornwall, it coincided with my second child as well. And I decided at 35, I didn't need, I needed some time back. I needed the Saturdays to get back to my family and explore in Cornwall. So yeah, I thought, you know, that's a good place to bow out. I was having a really good time at Havan.

Carl (10:34)
Okay.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (10:49)
rather than go fighting for a new club and trying to nudge your way into a team at 35, I thought that'll do. And just play for the Navy Vets now, in the year of 35s, and yeah, that's gone all right as well.

Carl (10:56)
Bye bye.

Nice.

Lovely. So a fairly decent journey there, mate. So you must have... Who's probably the best player you ever got to play with then? I know there's probably a couple you've come across, but who's the best?

Tom Blackburn (11:14)
 mean, on paper, Sam Matavesi right? It doesn't get much better than that. You know, starting international hooker, beat England, at Twickenham and won the Premiership final. I mean, yeah, I mean, don't get better than that. But I always remember, I guess because I was quite young and junior in the squad when we were there, but you had players like Greg Barden, he was playing England sevens at the time.

Carl (11:19)
Yeah. Nah.

Yep.

Tom Blackburn (11:42)
Josh Janui, he was at Worcester, he was a winger. You know, some of those guys were, they just stood out, they were different, different gravy.

Carl (11:51)
Yeah. So what is Sam like? Because I've heard, I know a few people that sort of know of him and stuff and like, apparently he's as mad as a box of chocolate frogs and he's a loose cannon at best is probably the term most people say.

Tom Blackburn (12:06)
Yeah, yeah, he's good fun. He's good fun. I mean, I haven't spent a lot of time with him, unlike some of the guys who have been in camp with him for a bit. You know, Sam and I have crossed paths, played with each other a few times, genuinely just down to Earth, really nice bloke, good fun, you know, doesn't take things too seriously apart from rugby when he's on, he's on. But yeah, really grounded bloke, just, yeah, nice to have around.

Carl (12:09)
Yeah, I've heard these.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (12:35)
especially with the Navy guys.

Carl (12:36)
Didn't he score a try for the Navy the other week where he chipped and chased it as well, did he or so?

Tom Blackburn (12:42)
Yeah, yeah outrageous absolutely outrageous because against the Air Force Yeah down in Plymouth at Brickfields and the yeah He just done this little broke through the line a little chip over there winger and then picked it up on the other end and scored and yeah I think everyone else was just thinking what is this guy? Yeah

Carl (13:02)
man. So there's probably players you've come across as well that should have gone on to make it. Who are they and is there a reason why they didn't?

Tom Blackburn (13:16)
Yeah, I think...

I mean the what ifs right? What if? There's probably a lot of people who would say, I would have made it if. I met few of them down the pub. Yeah, I think Ben Priddey for me, he was a player I've always thought was brilliant. When I played with him in the under 21s, under 23s years, he was different level. He was playing senior rugby, senior Navy rugby and starting early.

Carl (13:24)
Yeah.

And we all.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (13:45)
He's played a decent standard, don't get me wrong, he was playing Redruth in National 2, he's top try scorer I think in National 2 at the moment with Camborne and at 35 years old or 36 years old, whatever he is. So he's just played a brilliant standard but he never, I don't think, well maybe I'll have to speak to him, but I don't think he ever broke into Premiership at all.

Carl (13:53)
Yeah, it's not bad.

Was that because he was in the mob and the setup was slightly different before? Obviously being 35, it's not, it probably, it wasn't as well drilled as obviously what you've sort of inherited now. Would you think that was something that would come, obviously he's got his career. It's not like it's going to be his full time. Obviously, hopefully we can, you can tap him up and we can get him on and find out from the horse's mouth. But it's,

Tom Blackburn (14:21)
Yeah.

Carl (14:31)
Yeah, I don't think it's as well set up as it used to, as it is now for players to be able to sort of cross the divide, is it really?

Tom Blackburn (14:38)
No, I don't think think I think he was at Redruth for a long time, so I think he had quite a lot of club loyalty. And there's not that much rugby down in Cornwall. I know you think it's a rich place in terms of a picking ground. The Cornish county team has always been very strong. But actually, all you've got is pirates at one end down in Penzance and you've got X to the other. And there's nothing really much in between. Yeah, so there's a few clubs that...

Carl (14:42)
Mark. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

Tom Blackburn (15:08)
suck the players and then Pirates suck from them and then Exeter suck from Pirates. So it's kind of, there's not that much choice. So I think probably if he was located differently geographically with his family and where he's based, maybe it'd been a different story. You know, you look at the London area, so many clubs in that South London region at all levels from Nat1, Champ and then all the way off to the Premiership.

Carl (15:16)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Cause you've got, obviously Ed Pascoes down there as well.

Tom Blackburn (15:41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's down in, he's been at Redruth for a long time.

Carl (15:45)
Yeah, he's obviously, a few people have said he's probably up there with top draw as well. And it's been...

Tom Blackburn (15:55)
Yeah, I don't know if he's in that category where you reach your peak, you know, is he tall enough to be a second row, is he big enough to be a flanker, fast enough? You know, I guess everyone finds the limit and the club will look for freaks. Especially to get in the top flight, there's some pretty, there's some freaks in there. And if you're not quite in that category, then maybe you found your level.

Carl (16:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, I was speaking to, I had Oli Curry on as well, and Oli Curry played for London Irish right at the start of his career. And he said he went to a silver trials at when he was 13, and they literally didn't put a ball in his hand. All they did was measure him and weigh him. That was the trial. And they measured him. He was 13 and he'd already hit six foot. And they measured it and said, you're not going to grow anymore.

And then that was it kind of just fell out of it and then had to like play himself back in ended up being like six foot seven, six foot eight. So they clearly got the measurement stick wrong, but he just think just some crazy, crazy stuff. Is the, is the Navy rugby similar to that? Is, is it, is it a numbers game? Is it just performance based or whoever's available? Cause the rest of the way on ships or is does that you have to navigate around that a lot?

Tom Blackburn (17:14)
Yes. No, there's no, you know, we're not quite into the realms like rowing or any of that measuring people and going, he's not heavy enough. It's performance based really. You know, you can see talent. We encourage a lot of the players to play civilian rugby. You know, that's where you're going to develop. You're playing your weekend, weekend, weekend, weekend rugby at the highest standards you can. That's only going to benefit us when we get them.

Carl (17:24)
Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (17:42)
So yeah, no, none of that really. All performance based, see how people play and to be honest, we go through the squads now with the men's team, they get together in sort of January, back into January and they stayed together till the Army Navy first week in May. So they're in a training camp for that long. So that...

Carl (17:58)
Okay.

Are they sort of ring -fenced? They don't get called away? Are they sort of... that's your bubble? Unless something... shit really hit the fan.

Tom Blackburn (18:11)
 we try and get them released from their jobs into that training camp. So that kind of changed, you know, back in the days I was involved, I was on the end of a lot of good, jolly good pumpings from the army at Twickenham. And yeah, it was a previous stretch of work, we really just changed the way we're doing it, said, look, the Navy's third the size of the army, we're gonna have to do something differently. And they brought in this sort of professional training camp.

Carl (18:15)
Okay.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (18:40)
bit like they used to do with field gun or boxing and it changed you know and that year first year they did it 2010 won it you know and that was it so and it's been going on since then in various forms.

Carl (18:42)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

What took him so long? Is it just typical, just a case of what still works until somebody actually probably sat down? Or was there a new DOR that came in and said we've got to really do something different? Or was there a bit of a change of the guard there?

Tom Blackburn (19:13)
Yeah, well, as far as I understand it, it was a new DOR who came in. He'd been involved in high -level rugby, a guy called Geraint Ashton Jones He'd been involved in high -level rugby as an analyst with Quins So he had that sort of high, having seen high -level sport or high -level rugby, coming back into it with that experience and saying, right, hang on, let's just look at what we need to do. That's how I understand it. There's probably more to it than that.

Carl (19:18)
Right.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (19:42)
But I remember that in the first year that it all changed. The emphasis on strength and nutrition changed, the psychology sessions, it all just got a lot more serious, a lot more professional than we were in this professional camp. And I guess the proof was in the pudding because that year changed the results, so something worked.

Carl (20:04)
Nice, brilliant. So obviously...

How's that now gonna go to the next level? Are you quite limited on how you can progress the systems, obviously, or is it a case of just little bit, step by step by step, to sort of start finally taking back those pumpings that the army used to give you back in the day and try and return the favor? Or is it a case of this is where it is and you've just got small steps?

Tom Blackburn (20:32)
Yeah, I think, well, so I'm director across all the representative teams. So the men, the women, sevens, 23s, everything. So yeah, under me, I've got some assistance in each team. I think, you know, what the men have done for the last few years is working. You know, whatever the template, the model they've come up with is working for them. I think last year they won it, this year,

Carl (20:37)
But, that was brilliant.

Yeah, yeah.

right that was what a game to watch that was from the outside in

Tom Blackburn (21:01)
nail -biting, they're close, unreal, proper heartbreak. And the year before that, I thought, to be honest, they should have won it. So actually, whatever they're doing is working, and I think protecting, that's the key thing. The remit is to be competitive, and that's kind of where we need to be. So yeah, there's definitely some incremental gains.

Carl (21:22)
Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (21:28)
We do a review of the season and we look at what went wrong and why, and you try and change those little things. Where are the little areas you can get gains? Obviously, money's not infinite. People's time is infinite. So yeah, there's lots of constraints to work around, but yeah, we're certainly going after those little marginal bits that we can do differently, yeah, to get a slightly improved performance. Some of it comes from players, just finding players with the right...

Carl (21:31)
Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (21:58)
at the right level, getting them out, like I said, playing that good rugby week in week out. Obviously the women's game is slightly different, the army are just getting stronger and stronger.

Carl (21:59)
Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you got to sort of lift and shift the model that worked from the men's to the women's? I know you, sort of it has been done, but when I was watching the build up to the women's game at the Army Navy, one of the women's players literally got called away on the Thursday before the game and she was literally match ready in the zone, got the call, and she's gone and somebody's had to dot in. Obviously that wouldn't happen in the men's game unless the fan is...

Is that the next sort of phase for you, obviously being DOR, is to try and secure the lift and shift model?

Tom Blackburn (22:43)
Yeah, I don't think it's going to be the same model. I think they're different teams with different wants and needs. There's obviously some lessons we can take from the men's system and drag it across. I think there's a lot of issues that have gone where the women's team have been neglected probably because they haven't always been at Twickenham, so they haven't been in that limelight and the focal point.

Carl (22:51)
Okay.

Alright.

Tom Blackburn (23:10)
I think now they are and they are, you know, we need to invest, we need to make it better. There's a lot of little things you can do. Ultimately, it comes down to what players you've got available. Have you got the talent and the depth? You know, our women struggled a lot with injury this year. You take a few crucial injuries and a few players. If you haven't got that strength and depth, like any civvy rugby club finds out over a long season, you know, you've got to have those players who can come in at the right standard.

Carl (23:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (23:40)
Yeah, so we definitely learned that. We need a bigger player pool to draw from. With this, there's not that many women in the Navy and how many of those play rugby. There's a bit of a maths issue. So yeah, we've got to do a bit there. There's a bit about getting the right set up in terms of coaching and focus, what we're actually looking at. Whether it's strength and conditioning, nutrition, is it core skills, is it specialist skills?

Carl (23:51)
Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (24:07)
There's a lot of different factors in the game. A lot of the girls are playing, some of them haven't been playing rugby for that long either. They're quite new to the sport. So they're on a big old learning curve. Yeah, yeah, well that's it. You start playing rugby a couple of years ago and next thing you know you're playing at Twickenham in front of a fairly big crowd against a very decent outfit. So yeah, there's quite a lot of work to do there. But we've got to close that gap with the army.

Carl (24:19)
Yeah, playing the Twickers. Yeah.

Yeah, that's incredible.

Tom Blackburn (24:37)
That's the and the RAF, to be fair.

Carl (24:37)
Yeah. Yeah. So how do, how does the coaches come about? Do, are they serving personnel that have sort of had previous experience or is there scope for outside to come in or how does that sort of work and progress?

Tom Blackburn (24:53)
Yeah, so primarily it's all service people. Whether they have developed as a coach through the community game, coaching a ship side or a command team, fleet air arm and then work their way up. Or their players, ex -players, who've moved into coaching after playing. So, you know, if you look at our current crop, most of them are ex -players.

Carl (25:13)
Bye.

Tom Blackburn (25:22)
who have gone into coaching. We try and, once they've finished playing, develop them as coaches a bit with one of the teams before they take the top job.

Carl (25:32)
Nice, so it kind of recycles within so you don't have to go outside either, which works.

Tom Blackburn (25:33)
But yeah, just a bit far from it.

 we do bring in external coaches. So, you know, I think with that system, we have to find people that... Certainly for me, a focus the next year is identifying those niche areas of the game where we haven't got coaches at the right level and bring in external coaches, especially, you know, look at a hooker or, you know, a number nine box kick in.

Carl (25:55)
Bye.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (26:06)
high taking high balls, you know, some very old niche areas in the game where we probably haven't got that experience in the coaches. So we'll probably bring in external coaches who are specialists in those areas, scrumaging, whatever. I don't know. We need to look at it and bring in support where you need it. The sort of full -time core coaching team, you know, know, backs, head coach are going to be service people just, yeah, doing their best.

Carl (26:28)
Yeah, yeah. Does that come out of a budget? Do you get an allocated budget to make use of to go after the army in that sense and then that can be used externally if required or is it a case of you just bring them up and beg them and plead them to come in for nothing or just give them some beer or something?

Tom Blackburn (26:46)
Yeah, well, yeah, no, we just go through the budget set in actually today. That was a meeting today. So yeah, there's a, you know, there's a budget to work within Navy rugby. You know, it's got sponsorship income. It's got the ticket sales from Army Navy. So yeah, we've got a rugby budget to work with and how we use that is up to us really. I bid for.

Carl (26:53)
Okay.

Okay.

Tom Blackburn (27:13)
where we want to focus that funding, different areas. Yes, external coaching support is definitely one that I'm looking at for next year. I mean, we've been pretty lucky having someone like Sam Matevesi involved. He's not only a great player, he's also really good at coaching the guys. Just bringing in those little tip bits and helping the guys understand stuff. Having him around is a big boost.

Carl (27:16)
Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Tom Blackburn (27:40)
But yeah, I think it costs all the teams to be honest. The 23s, the women's teams, seven teams, yeah. There's going to be areas where we need support. Yeah, I've got a bit of money put aside for that.

Carl (27:52)
Nice. So obviously the the under -23s do the the sort of the tri services as well don't they? They used to play down at Burnaby Road so I used to pop over and how's the future of the Navy game looking? Is the development still coming through looking good? Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (28:11)
Really strong. I think if I look back at it since I started getting involved, where the seniors felt like they were a bit cliquey, there wasn't too much draw through, whereas now there's a really big draw through. Year on year, there's a number of under 23s get pulled into the seniors. The senior coaches are always looking down at the 23s, looking at the talents available.

Carl (28:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

good.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (28:39)
nurturing it, even if they bring them into camp for a little bit of time, develop them, get them into some good civilian clubs to see them progress. So yeah, the future's bright. I think two years ago, they won the Inter -Services and then this year they narrowly lost. But yeah, there's some amazing players coming through.

Carl (28:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I used to go over and watch when Ben Roberts and Rory and that were in the team and they'd done, yeah, it was always a great night out. It was just so fucking cold on Burnaby Road. It's just so fucking west. Who puts it on in the middle of winter and stuff like that? The interservices system.

Tom Blackburn (29:13)
Yeah, yeah.

 needs a needs needs replacement. stand stand clubhouse, they need a new one there because it's not great. The pitch is lovely, but the rest of it.

Carl (29:23)
 yeah because obviously US US Pompey used to play out there as well they still sort of battering around are they back now because they sort of disappeared and then are they are they sort of another sort of support

Tom Blackburn (29:40)
 they sit under Navy rugby. So they're one of our sort of affiliate clubs. So we've got, we've got US Portsmouth in the Pompey area and then we've got, Devonport Services who have just been promoting that too. So yeah, they're sort of our affiliate clubs too, Navy support, they use Navy facilities. So yeah, that's.

Carl (29:45)
okay.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, see that. Yep.

Plymouth Albion much at all or anything like that? Or is it not an official, but some of the lads go there.

Tom Blackburn (30:07)
Yeah, it's not official, but we've got strong links with that club. Plymouth Albion a great club. We've got a number of players playing regularly there. We've used, you know, Brickfields has been used for quite a few fixtures that we hire at the venue. Against the French Navy Commonwealth Cup, we played down there. The RAF, we played them this year at Brickfields So, yeah, it's a good venue and a decent club.

Carl (30:11)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nice. So obviously when you were in the mob and sort of knocking around, what was the most exotic place you got to pull your boots on and play for the Navy?

Tom Blackburn (30:42)
Uhhh, probably...

Probably the US. Yeah. So not that exotic, unfortunately.

Carl (30:46)
Okay.

No, Polly said that. I think he said he was, yeah, he was like, he'd done the sort of the US tour and stuff as well. So it was, when was that? What year was that then, Tom?

Tom Blackburn (30:57)
Yeah.

So that would have been a ships team, 2012ish. And then with the Navy Rugby team, I've been to New Zealand, been to Australia. Yeah, been around a bit on a few tours, so yeah, some good places.

Carl (31:12)
well.

So obviously 2012 was what, probably that's what, 12 years ago now. Was that, that was sort of on the precipice of the start of American rugby? Was that quite obvious back then or was there, did they look like they knew what they were doing when you were out there or?

Tom Blackburn (31:33)
No, so we played the US Marine Corps like great, great bunch, like through the heart at it. You could just tell like rugby hadn't been in their system for very long. Some amazing athletes, but just not used to the nitty gritty of rugby, especially when it came to scrummaging and all the dirty tricks, the dark arts, they just had not sunk in over there yet. But I think if you look now,

Carl (31:38)
Yeah.

Bye.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (32:02)
the US system investing in sevens because it's an Olympic sport. That has gone mental. The US sevens team is pretty good. They've got a real feed into them. I think it's growing as a sport now. It's really starting to take off.

Carl (32:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, obviously the MLR has got some players that have gone there for their payday as well and it looks really impressive. They're very good at marketing the Yanks and I think the rest of rugby could probably sort of peer through the fence and say, hold on, how are you doing it so well there? Because there's, so I obviously keep track of pretty much as much rugby as possible for the pod. There's an app for the whole...

of the American MLR League. So you can get every game on your phone and all the updates, everything like that, all free. So there's no, there's no issue. It's called the rugby network and you literally get all the details, all the games, watch everything on there. And we're struggling to televise games over here and stuff. And you just think they've done it. They've done it again. Obviously they're the NF, they've got the NFL that they've nailed that. That's, that's a, but how,

Do you think, what's your opinion of the way rugby's run over here compared to other places around the world that you've sort of peered through the fence at?

Tom Blackburn (33:26)
Uhhhh

Well, so I like the Premiership, right? I look at that and I go, what a great league. It's got loads of homegrown talent there, quite loving people, and that's part of the way they run the club, right? All the politics around players go to France, big money, promotion relegation, but the Premiership's good. I really like the idea of promotion relegation. I'd love to see...

Carl (33:31)
Yep.

promotion and relegation.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (33:57)
some of the barriers between the champ and the Premiership removed. I don't know enough about the details. I've read some of the statements coming out of the champ at the moment about why there's such an issue as they see it. I'm sure it's different from the Premiership Rugby League and all that stuff.

Carl (34:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, there's a few moving parts to it. So obviously the RFU have offered the championship £4 million to share between the 12 clubs. There's £35 million then to be shared between the 10 Premiership clubs to offset the losses each year by each Premiership club. There's also four of those Prem clubs that are in discussions with the PIF, which is obviously the Saudi Public Investment Fund.

Tom Blackburn (34:35)
Mmm.

Carl (34:44)
funnily enough, two of them are the bottom two teams that could have technically been relegated this season. So, reading between the lines, there may be some conversations there that they're trying to protect investments rather than protecting the game and allowing it to grow. I think the TNT stuff's really interesting to understand how they're going to be able to make as many games possible for people to view. Because every game is going to be on telly for the TNT next season. So that, I think that's a good way of putting it.

out there but it's just how they're going to do it because I was speaking to Joe Batley the other day as well and Joe's been on one of his on the pod and he said they're still not quite told them but they said there might be some games on Thursday nights to try and compensate to to allow not too many games on a Saturday afternoon because obviously most rugby fans as we know are playing on the Saturday afternoon so the demographics already disappeared so it's...

They've got to do something to get as many people on the telly and also in the stands at the same time. So it'd be interesting. I think the product, I agree. I really do agree. I think the product's brilliant. I just don't think we advertise it well enough to the outside world to bring more people to the game.

Tom Blackburn (35:59)
yeah i think it's all that media rights right and the money in the game i mean ultimately it all comes down to who's willing to pay to go and watch a game of rugby right? bums on seats counts i mean that's kind of what drives it every viewing figures i don't know why it's so much more popular in france than it is in the uk

Carl (36:15)
Great.

I think because it's regionalised, there's literally one team to... Whereas the Prem, you've got what, four clubs sort of around the London piece, or in and around, and then you've got obviously, I think it's too widely spread, so you can't just sort of, like from Portsmouth, Gosport way, closest we've got is Quins, obviously, Irish was the other option, they're obviously not with us any longer, so Quins is the closest option, but even to get the Quins...

Tom Blackburn (36:29)
Yeah.

Mm.

Carl (36:48)
what, an hour and a half, two hours on a train to Twickenham. And so it's still not cheap, especially in the current climate, you're not going to get as many bums on seats in that sense. The Prem final was 90, I think it was 90 quid for an entry level ticket. And they sold it out, fair play, they're brilliant. But there's only going to be a certain clientele that go to that. Whereas...

Tom Blackburn (37:05)
wow.

Yeah, well that's because none of them are able to get into Bath's Ground all year, so it's the only game they can actually go and get to watch. Because they've only got about 10 seats and they're all outside in the rain.

Carl (37:18)
yeah yeah yeah yeah I've been to Bath on a Friday night and literally all it did was rain it's thank God I was on a rugby tour so I was just pissed anyway so that was the only option but yeah it's it's a crook

Tom Blackburn (37:26)
You

Yeah, yeah.

And it was nice to see two of those like proper rugby clubs in the final this year.

Carl (37:39)
 well there's two sort of Hollywood stories there that have kind of been missed. Football got that pretty much nailed on all or nothing and stuff like that on Amazon and Netflix. But somebody could have said, right, sod it we're going to go in the bath. We're going to go and watch. They literally should have been relegated this year. Let's go and see. And then, like literally the second season, they're in the Prem final. That would have got a few people interested, like outside of the bubble.

Newcastle finished bottom with what five points this season Netflix turn up with a camera just get something just try and raise some sort of Like some sort of dirt or something Steve diamond going in there with a hand grenade trying to reassign hoggy like sign hoggy up all of those sort of talk that people don't see in a rugby game Because we're very much. This is rugby. This is it. We can't really show the outside. Well what we're all about but try and create

Tom Blackburn (38:25)
Yeah.

Carl (38:33)
an appetite for it, for just the general view. Because if somebody just chucks it on on Netflix because they're bored or they've got some bird round, you never... Like, they could just chuck it on and we might then gain another follower. But without trying, how is it going to change? And I just don't think that's the appetite that...

Tom Blackburn (38:51)
Yeah, when I saw the All or Nothing team, obviously did the All Blacks. That was pretty cool to watch. Was it Mud Sweat and Tears, was that one, doing the Premiership?

Carl (38:55)
Yep.

Yeah, but I didn't think, I thought it was shit shit be honest. It was very porridge. It was very porridge, wasn't it? It was very bland. It's very much, we can't talk too much. We can't do, but the, I thought the Six Nations one was really good on Netflix. I thought that was a good insight. I haven't got around to it, but I've heard it's phenomenal. But no, I haven't got around to it yet, but that's the sort of stuff.

Tom Blackburn (39:02)
it kind of bounced around lots of different teams that it didn't really focus on.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. Did you see the South Africa one? I Havant't seen it because it's unrestricted, isn't it? Yeah.

Carl (39:27)
because you see the clips of Razzie Rasmus just absolutely tearing him to pieces. You would never die for the country, you'd never do this, it's all talk. That's rugby, that's the sort of shit that we know and love. But other people...

Tom Blackburn (39:39)
Yeah, it's a bit against me where they're talking about, you know, the concept of taking the scrum off of a mark in their 22. And I just love that, you know, and to get that insight behind the scenes to see how it came about. I think some of the things that maybe it's just as a rugby player, you're like, okay, I see how this madness started.

Carl (39:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

But then some people that might not understand the game will see that and think, hold on, what are they talking about? actually I'm going to pop down the local rugby club or I'm going to watch a game. I'm going to do a few things like this. But if that isn't available, it's like how many people have watched like an NFL superstar or a basketball superstar film on like coach Carter or something like that. And then ended up watching a basketball game or when they go to America, they go and buy tickets to go and see it. We don't have that accessibility for

Tom Blackburn (40:22)
Yeah.

Carl (40:27)
for kids or anything like that within the rugby world outside in. I think they've done a really good one on the referees as well recently as well. So that's supposed to be really good as well. And I think that's a really good insight to see how they've had to adapt to a lot of the rule changes as well. Because I think that affects a lot of people's interest is just the constant rule change. And then there's a lot of people that just told it's so dangerous. You're going to get concussions. You're going to get...

You're gonna die by the time you're 45 or you're not gonna be able to remember your own house, or your keys or anything. You hear all the horror stories rather than all the positives that we've grown up with rugby and absolutely love. And it's made us the better person we are now because of the game we love, but people don't get to see that. They get to see the blood, guts and gory that the media want to push in the opposite direction.

Tom Blackburn (41:16)
Yeah, there's going to be some interesting times again for the game. And, you know, we're looking at the back of how do we sell out to economic and, you know, how do we get Army Navy back to the glory days of selling out? That's where we want to be. That's that's challenges on.

Carl (41:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, because a lot of people have used it, obviously use it as a piss up and stuff, which is brilliant, but that doesn't make it as successful for families. There's a lot more, there's more of a family driven piece. Is that where you think you're going to try and drive the market? Do you sort of herd the riffraff to one end or something and be able to have like a family section or, there must be ways of trying to push that family piece.

Tom Blackburn (42:01)
Yeah, there is a, there's a, they're calling a team to look at it specifically. So I'm not read into the changes they're looking at enough, but yeah, I think there's a potential that, you know, has the reunion event of the past gone or, you know, is it, it's not so much, it's never, is it, is is going to come back? You know, the old guy, I think there's always excuses. I mean, it'd been a great day out, right? And it's quite a unique, rugby game.

Carl (42:05)
What?

Nah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (42:31)
you never heard an ant from like it and all the bells and whistles go with it so I think yeah there's always going to be a bit of that but I think if there's an option to carve out a bit of a family -friendly vibe do a bit of a something in that West car park where you've got all the recruitment stands there kids come along you know try to do the Royal Marines climbing wall and shooting a rifle and you know all that fun stuff then maybe we can do that as well.

Carl (42:33)
Nah.

Yep. Yep.

Tom Blackburn (43:00)
and especially with it now being the men's game and the women's game, there's a different crowd that comes with Women's Rugby. It's a different audience. So hopefully we can attract both and they can sort of complement each other.

Carl (43:07)
Yep. Yep.

 I think the game's obviously got to a point where it's got a bit of a stigma around a certain clientele as well. And obviously, yeah, we love rugby, we love drinking, we love the whole thing that it goes together. But I think the women's rugby has been the door opener for a lot of families to sort of bring the system through. You just hope they don't use that as a cash cow now. The RFU to...

subsidise the rest of the empty stadiums on the men's games. I think the Japan tickets went out for sale for England and Japan. They're nowhere near sold out. I think they've priced them at 60, 70 quid. And you think, it's Japan. Drop them to 30, 40 quid and max it out. Just fill it out with kids. I bet they'll still get to a week or two beforehand and it's not filled, but they won't drop the price.

Just say to an adult, you buy an adult's ticket, you get the kid in free. Just find a way of just trying to get kids through the doors and parents. I don't know, it's obviously being able to go and watch the Navy rugby, that's easy, accessible, it's free. Burnaby Road obviously is always more than welcoming for people just to go in, it's just so cold. And then I've been up to...

I've been up to the army game previously as well, which was in Aldershot Is that where they're mostly older?

Tom Blackburn (44:43)
the Under 23s, yeah, yeah. So we kind of rotate now between home and away. So yeah, Aldershot for the army and then the RAF drags to Halton or some other club.

Carl (44:43)
the under 23s that I went. Under 23s. Yeah. Yeah.

Because yeah, the Aldershots not a bad little set up to be fair. What's Haltons set up? Is it easy, accessible for people to get in or have you got to be in the know? Have you guys trying to push it a little bit more on social media or is it if you've got a mate that's playing that that's how you know it or is that your net?

Tom Blackburn (45:13)
 did it at Lydney I think last year, so it was was open access ground. So I think that's the aim, is to try and make it accessible. The media stuff is always a driver. I haven't handed over yet, I'm the secretary for UK Armed Forces rugby. So we took the team on tour to France last year.

Carl (45:17)
okay.

Bye.

Gosh.

Tom Blackburn (45:41)
And some of the view and things, you know, we appreciate everyone can't come to France, right? And watch the UK Armed Forces team take on Fiji, you know, or the Fijian military team. But we have some unbelievable views of people watching the game through BFBS on the replay on YouTube. So actually connecting that audience in a different way is what it's about and showing people the talent that's on, you know, that is available in the forces. We've got some really talented athletes.

Carl (45:44)
Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (46:10)
and we want to give them the best audience to show off their skills to. I think they deserve it. And whether that's people bums on seats or watching from home.

Carl (46:21)
I think that's brilliant. I think the BFBS stuff and the YouTube access that you guys offer is brilliant, especially for service personnel that can't attend. They obviously still could be connected back to their mates and just be able to support. The coverage is always really good. Everything I've seen is decent. And then just being able to get down there as well. When you do get the opportunity, the standard of rugby has always been decent as well, and it's always a good crack.

Usually cheap beer, which helps. So it's always a positive. you've now sort of taken over the DOR role. How did that come about? Was there just a poster in the naffy one day and you thought, actually I'll have a go? Or were you the last person with your hand up and got stitched up? Was it planned or was it?

Tom Blackburn (47:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I've been interested in something, you know, when I finished playing for the seniors a while ago, I was always kind of looking to give back. So, I mean, you know, Navy Rugby gave me so much, you know, tours, amazing experiences, opportunities that I couldn't, you know, you're never going to get as an amateur rugby player in any other sphere. So, I was, you know...

Carl (47:16)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (47:34)
I wanted to give that back, make sure people after me had that opportunity. That was kind of why I wanted to get back involved. Initially there was nothing available in Navy rugby. I chose not to do coaching, which I thought was going to be the next step for me. But coaching is more intense than playing. There's more time and I needed to focus on my career a bit more. So I ended up taking a job with the UK Armed Forces team as the sort of secretary, getting involved in that world.

Carl (47:47)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (48:04)
and then i was kind of a one -man band with them for a while doing everything media sponsorships i mean you name it organizing tools funding a lot and i got invited by the neighborhood teams cover the media officer they were going to france for the french navy in involved and the first pronounce our someone picked up a month from black

Carl (48:14)
Hehehe

Nice.

It sounds French, that'll do.

Tom Blackburn (48:31)
Yeah, I've got advice. I said like can you come down cover the media stuff? For this guy who can make it so yeah cool. Why not trip to France few beers and I was out there and I went out for a few few Guinness with the with the current director of rugby Rob, Rob, O' Kane and We were chatting and I said, you know, is there any openings I'd be keen to get involved and He sort of said well, you know, I'm sorry. I let you know and he He sort of said You know, I think you should apply for my job

Carl (48:39)
Yeah, lovely.

Tom Blackburn (49:01)
The skills and experience you've built up, I think you'd be a good fit. So, yeah, when they advertise, he let me know and I put the application in and then there was a few of us, I think there was a few candidates went for it. So we went through a sort of two stage process and then I was lucky enough to get a job. Yeah.

Carl (49:20)
 of get too drunk and get some photos of me's out of leave, is he? Like, you haven't sort of forced him out of his job role. He was ignoring ignoring you  the way  Alright.

Tom Blackburn (49:29)
Nah, it was all by the book. So yeah, he's moving on. I had to go and do something else. So yeah, it created an opportunity for me and yeah, I was keen to do it. So it's kind of the job I wish, you know, I've been looking up to for a long time.

Carl (49:46)
Yes, as you said, so you had a couple of interview process. What was the thing? Did you have to present what you planned on doing or was it just all of it? Just they wanted to know it. Wow.

Tom Blackburn (49:56)
Yeah, a bit of all that. Yeah, you know, sort of preparing a rugby CV. I hadn't really done one of those before. So that was sort of preparing that sort of things. And then...

Carl (50:01)
Yeah.

You're gonna have to get the old VHS out again and try and put your clips in together, teacher!

Tom Blackburn (50:08)
No, no, exactly. And then, yeah, then just an interview with a panel, really talking about why, you know, why I wanted to do it, what my plans were, you know, just sort of doing the right thing, how I've got around problems in the past, a bit about my credibility and background. And yeah, I think I guess they bought into my vision and what I wanted to achieve.

Carl (50:23)
Yeah.

Yep.

Tom Blackburn (50:36)
So yeah, now it's just got to do it now, right? Put my money where my mouth is and actually deliver. So yeah, I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it really.

Carl (50:38)
That's it.

So when's it officially start? Have you got a date that the handover is happening or is it already done? It's done.

Tom Blackburn (50:49)
It's done, yeah. Army Navy, well when was it, back in last month, start of last month, me and Rob shook hands after Army Navy and that was me. So yeah, I'm straight into it. There's a lot of work.

Carl (50:56)
Yeah.

Wow.

So when's the first sort of boots on the pitch for you then? What's the first game that you're over the top of? okay.

Tom Blackburn (51:11)
 yeah, the Navy Sevens teams are off running, they've got the Inter Services Sevens

22nd of June. Yeah, so yeah, that's kind of ongoing now through the summer. And then we're into the under 23 season starts in September. Yeah, and then, yeah, seniors off Christmas. So yeah, straight into it.

Carl (51:19)
Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

Nice, baptism of fire mate, just there's no lulling around is there, so.

Tom Blackburn (51:39)
No, so it's all the preparation stuff, right? It's getting, you know, are they going to be any shuffles in the TSG? Who your coach is going to be? What skills do we need to bring in? You know, the money, how are we going to spend the money? It's a limited part of money. Where are we going to use it? I've got all the players. We have players going on professional contracts with different clubs. So sorting all those out because they're all fishing, ready to start pre -season at different clubs.

Carl (51:45)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (52:09)
So yeah, sorting that lot out and yeah, getting ready really. So yeah, no straight into it, which has been good, but busy.

Carl (52:17)
No, that's it. So obviously, the plan is obviously for next season's Army Navy on the main door of it. Do you have like a, obviously you've got the current squad you're aware of, do you have scouts that you sort of have sort of looking around the rest of the player pool or do you get footage sent to you and you sort of process it or have you got sort of a team allocated to do that work for you so far or not?

Tom Blackburn (52:45)
Yeah, most of the, we've got a bit of a network out there within, so in a Navy rugby, the community side, you know, straight from playing for your ship or your unit in the Navy Cup, and then it builds up into command level. So, you know, play for your core or the fleet air arm or Pompey command, you know. And then, so we've kind of got scouts in all those teams. When it gets to the finals of those games, you know, some of the coaches go and have a look, watch players.

Carl (52:55)
Yeah.

Okay.

Tom Blackburn (53:15)
or get footage. Plus, I said, we've got the scouts at the entry points at Raleigh and Dartmouth looking out for real talent coming into the Navy and the Marines. And then you're kind of putting all that together and then having a look at people, right? It all comes down to have a look at people. And part of our sort of mantra is really like selecting character over talent. So, you know, make sure they're the right people. The All Blacks have kind of...

Carl (53:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (53:44)
They do that, you know, they have their own way of doing that.

Carl (53:45)
 that, no dickhead policy. That's their set up, the same as the All Blacks. And as you say, getting the right people in can easily pass talent if you've got a team that will stick together. Especially as you guys have probably, you guys have obviously got quite a bit to do alongside before they're able to get away from their normal jobs. So they've got quite a high demand level to them. That's sort of, it's not a...

Tom Blackburn (53:49)
Yeah, yeah.

Carl (54:13)
It's not a holiday, but it's a step away from the norm and then they have to sort of recycle. If you can't process that, that must be quite hard. Is that part of the mental stuff that you said, the psychology stuff that you've got to deal with?

Tom Blackburn (54:25)
yet we haven't we haven't done much of that to be fair but it's probably a good idea i think also nothing i think let's get that time off alone with my then going and doing extra work you know whilst they're awake play rugby all people are covering for him you know they're not see so so they really is important for me and and for that time to the rugby that they they go back to work and in and really had that time off

Carl (54:29)
There you go.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (54:54)
Well, it's not time off, but time for doing a different thing. So yeah, they have to be good. And that comes down to character. The bit, you know, when we get them, my sort of offer to the Navy is like, you give me a rugby player for a period of time, I'll give you back a better sailor and Marine. So it's not just about the playing rugby. It's about how do we improve them as a person, them as a sailor? Am I going to make them a better leader? Am I going to make them a better individual?

Carl (54:56)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (55:24)
That's our aspiration as well as creating good rugby teams. And if we do that with the rugby as the sort of medium, that's kind of what we're trying to achieve as well as obviously beating the army and the RAF

Carl (55:37)
Do you get many friendlies against sort of civvy teams? Obviously with your links, do you get to play like Devonport services and that sort of, and the likes and US Pompi?

Tom Blackburn (55:46)
Yeah, yeah, not US Pompey because they're not quite at the right level at the moment. Yeah, there's a big broad, broad brush. So if I look at the teams played last year, Taunton, Cornish Pirates, Exeter Chiefs, yeah, Marine National, lots of different, Cambridge University, Oxford University. So yeah, there's a bit of a broad brush. British Police, we played a couple of them. Yeah, so it's a bit of a mix. So.

Carl (55:50)
Depends how easy you want to game.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (56:15)
all pretty much most of the games we play are against civilian teams. We try and tailor the season right so that you build up to get the team in the right place just before they go against the Indian services.

Carl (56:23)
Yeah.

So how do those games come about? Is that through connections, through players playing for those sort of clubs and stuff, or just a case of there's a WhatsApp group of everyone saying, actually, do you want to friendly at the weekend?

Tom Blackburn (56:42)
Yeah, yeah, no, some of them are historic. So like Oxford and Cambridge, we played them for a long time. Plymouth Albion, we've got really strong links with that club, Save His Pirates through, yeah, getting on really well, but we've also had a lot of players go through this club. So, yeah, we've got strong links there. Exeter has been something we've been building for the last few years. We had a really good game against them last year at Sandy Park.

Carl (56:46)
Well, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Tom Blackburn (57:11)
They sold out the whole main stand, like full. It was a big big I think they're getting even bigger next year because they're going to do a weekend where they haven't Havant't a game. So that will be a really really one.

Carl (57:12)
Really? Wow.

Yeah.

Is that sort of their development squad or is it a few sort of pro, proper first teamers in there?

Tom Blackburn (57:30)
Yeah, it's Theoden Hald. Normally it's like their development squad. Occasionally they chuck in like a senior player who's returning from injury. Yeah, yeah. And that's always been the case. I mean, I remember playing against Bath Academy as an under -23 and like, you know, Sheff Walker was playing, having just played GB Rugby League. And I'm like, what is going on here? Get an absolute smash. So, yeah, sometimes they play ball and they match us. You know, they understand.

Carl (57:34)
Yeah.

players coming back from injury, yeah.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Yep.

Tom Blackburn (58:00)
They understand the standard and they play the right game. Sometimes they just use it as a, you know, use us as a bit of a test, you know, a bunch of, bunch of tackle pads really. So.

Carl (58:10)
Yeah, so I've also had James Shanahan on, who's over at Cambridge as well. He's the head coach and he's saying how he has, he's got to literally get the squad sorted within like an eight week window. And he's like, literally he's got it all tailored up and it's just amazing. As he said though, it's a similar sort of set up to you guys, but probably not as much of a turnover. He said,

Tom Blackburn (58:19)
Mmm.

Carl (58:37)
every sort of two years or every year, he might lose 50 % of his players and they got to restart. He's literally got blokes just walking down halls trying to sign players up. He said, we might not know who we've got until that sort of induct. He said, we've got no input into the entry of obviously Cambridge because rugby is just an add on. The education is probably... He said, one season I had nine, I had three nines, didn't have a 10. He said, I had to teach a...

Tom Blackburn (59:00)
Mmm.

Carl (59:06)
a nine to become a 10 in like eight weeks to play again. He said, it's a whole different challenge. At least you guys have probably got a bit of a conveyor belt, but does it still sort of, do you sometimes find yourself sparse in certain positions? Really?

Tom Blackburn (59:21)
Always, yeah, always. Yeah, it's kind of, you get what you got. Sometimes the key players you need aren't there, you know, they're away or injured.

Carl (59:26)
Yeah.

Yeah. So how do you do that alongside? Do you sort of have to sort of send lads off and get them out into, and say, actually, you've got to go and play this role or you've got to play this position for us because we need to really strengthen this bit? Or do the lads sort of say, no, that's my position, I've always played it? Or are they more adaptable because they get an opportunity to play or potentially the opportunity to play at Twickers?

Tom Blackburn (59:53)
Yeah, I mean, we've we've it a few times. We've had really good hookers. We've had a number of good hookers. I mean, this year, you know, we've got Sam Mavaisy Matavesi playing hooker week in week out You've got Reece Williams who was playing in the championship, Cornish Pirates hooker. And then you've got a nice young hooker coming through. And actually, yeah, using, you know, like Sam could play back row and Pritz has done that before as well. And yeah, I think ultimately some of them are learning new positions, playing out their comfort zone a little bit.

Carl (59:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (1:00:23)
or but that's just the way it is. You're kind of building a team, right? And you don't always have everything you want. So you work with what you got and do it. I mean, we get a bit longer. So eight weeks is a hell of a challenge. Whereas we might know those issues a bit more in advance and try and work around them. But then, like I said, injury strikes and you find you're on the back foot and you've got to make changes again.

Carl (1:00:25)
Nah, shit.

No.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Tom Blackburn (1:00:52)
So luckily I don't have to deal with that as the director of rugby. That's the head coach's head scratcher.

Carl (1:00:57)
No, just point them in that direction. That's the way we want to go. You make it happen. Tom, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on, mate. And it's great to see another side of rugby that a lot of people only see, as you say, at the Army Navy on the telly. So I can only wish you the best of luck for the journey you've got. I'm sure you'll smash it and be able to flip.

flip some of those Tonkins that you received on the pitch back against the army, mate. So thank you so much for your time, mate. I really, really appreciate it.

Tom Blackburn (1:01:30)
No, cheers, Carl. Thanks for being a pleasure to come on. Thanks. Cheers, mate.

Carl (1:01:32)
Top man, cheers.

Carl (1:01:35)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leeds podcast. In today's episode, we spoke with Tom Blackburn, new director of rugby at Rugby Navy. What a top bloke, wealth of knowledge, really big plans to push the Navy scene forward as well and close that gap, especially in the women's game.

and hopefully return some of the pumpings that he obviously received on the pitch from the army back in the day. he's obviously toured around the country, toured around the world, played some really good rugby level as well. Obviously played down at Havant made himself down in Cornwall now as well. So really nice bloke, great conversation as well. So great to have him on.

Hopefully we can open the door further to some other services, rugby as well, which would be really good. Next episode, we've got Oli Currie on. Oli is an absolute character, played for London Irish. Very outspoken, but when he speaks, it's well worth listening to because the bloke has got a lot of knowledge, played in the game, gone through the hardships, explains.

how sometimes you can't pop your head above the parapet in the game as well, which is really interesting to hear in that interview as well. So recently finished up with Chinnor obviously was part of their promotion team as well, which was really good to talk to him about. That episode could have easily gone on for two or three hours. There's definitely another backup episode lined up with Oli at some point, because I think we barely touched the iceberg with that. So he's an absolute.

Really nice bloke as well. So it'd be great to hopefully get another episode out of that as well But just get the first one out of the way next week and what a top bloke I think you guys will love it really outspoken tells it how it is obviously we love that especially in the game, so Once again, I just want to say a huge. Thank you to all for joining us. Thank you and goodbye