Episode 17 - The Warren Abrahams Interview - A One Way Ticket from South Africa to Rugby Creative

In this episode of the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast, host Carl interviews Warren Abrahams, a rugby coach with extensive experience in both sevens and 15s rugby. They discuss Abrahams' rugby journey, his preference for coaching sevens, and the potential benefits of players and coaches participating in the sevens circuit. They also touch on the growth of rugby in Brazil and Abrahams' role in developing the sport in the country. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of planning and preparation in building a high-performance environment, the need for a connected and synchronized approach to maximize human performance, the slow pace of change in rugby and the need for more diverse thinking, the lack of role models and superheroes in the game, the importance of marketing and storytelling to attract new fans, the accessibility of behind-the-scenes content and the inner workings of clubs, the impact of coaching on individuals and their personal growth, and the measure of success as a coach.

Transcript

Carl (00:12)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep shining a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl and thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Don't forget to keep subscribing on the pod, keep in touch with us on the social media platforms. It allows us to open the door to other guests and just interact with you guys and make sure that what we're actually doing as part of this is actually moving forward and getting engagement

within the game. As I mentioned, we're on the road. Not all of these pods are gonna be in depth from the start. So we're gonna go straight into these interviews. This week doesn't really need much of an introduction. We got the legend that is Warren Abrahams currently working for Brazil sevens. I know that's coming to an end at the end of the Olympics. So Warren is out on the look. We actually had to edit and cut this.

interview short a little bit because he was running off to work with Kyle Sinckler before Kyle's gone off to France. So more than willing to have obviously let Warren jump off and get on with such a legend that is Sinks.

Sinks, if you wanna jump on, tell us about that more than welcome any time,

As I said, not really much of a intro needed for Warren he's just a legend. So let's get on with

Carl (01:33)
Well, this week we've managed to get Warren Abrahams on. Rusty from a few weeks ago told me to reach out. He said he'd been out for a walk with Warren that morning. So he said Warren would probably be interested. Another mate that we've sort of got got contact through Saner over in Qatar said you'd be a really worthwhile guest getting on. So Warren, for those that are not as enlightened about your rugby journey, love to.

Love for that to be shared and let everyone understand where you've been, what you've done and where you're at now.

Warren Abrahams (02:07)
Carl firstly, thank you very much for having me. It's always a pleasure having some coaching conversations and sharing a space where you can share a few ideas, you know. So thank you very much for that. Rugby, I'll give you a snapshot of the rugby journey so far. As you can probably tell, I'm originally from South Africa, so born and raised in Cape Town. And there, obviously...

Carl (02:18)
Yeah, pretty.

Warren Abrahams (02:34)
been from South Africa, you're born with a rugby ball over there, so you're straight into the game. So yeah, that's where I pick up the game, you know, and I'm blessed and grateful for the opportunities the game has given me so far. I played all through the schoolboy ranks back in South Africa. I was lucky enough to...

to get a scholarship to to Stellenbosch University. So by interesting story with that, I don't come from a very well -off family. So after school, I had to take a year out and sort of put all my eggs in one basket with a rugby thing. And look, I had one opportunity and that was to to try and play my heart out to get a to get a scholarship, you know, and luckily it worked out for me with with Stellenbosch University.

which is obviously a very prestigious rugby university in itself. And then from there, went back to my local club where we, Durbanville -Balville, the home club played some of my under -20s stuff there, played for their first team, so they play like equivalent to what we know as the championship over here, you know, on that level of rugby.

and then took a gamble at 22, 23 took a gamble, had a little bit of savings. I was lucky to start coaching back then as well. Had a little bit of savings and then gambled and came to England. You know, nothing sorted, nothing planned, took a risk, sent my CV out to many clubs as you do back then. And then, yeah, I find myself over here with no plan.

It was about being flexible and adapting. I managed to get a job with some random company selling broadband. At the time, I had no clue what broadband was. I lasted about 24 hours in that job. Then a great man, Paul Laidler.

Carl (04:38)
I don't think many people still do now Warren to be honest.

Warren Abrahams (04:51)
in Windsor, he took me in. And then from there, you got to let the rugby do the talking, you know, and then word of mouth and you pick up a little bit and people get interested in what you've got to offer. And that's sort of how I knew that was my chance. I had nothing to lose, you know, but I knew that was my chance, I had to build something. And luckily, with all that hard work and persistence and living through the ups and downs at that time.

I went via London Irish in their community department to Harlequins. I spent eight years in Harlequins within the academy, five years with England's Sevens. I have two years coaching Lithuania on the European circuit. Bear in mind, I never even know that country existed when I got the phone call. And then I did some consulting with Germany briefly.

took up the USA job for the cancelled Olympics from there, took on the Welsh job. Currently, I'm supporting Brazil in this Olympic cycle, which will finish next month, really. So yeah, that's a snapshot of the rugby journey there.

Carl (06:09)
That's incredible. Obviously, South Africa is pretty much like a bigger version of Wales, isn't it, really, with the way that they're passionate for rugby? Was there a bit of a culture shock coming to the home of rugby in it, not being as big as sort of where it was back home?

Warren Abrahams (06:28)
Probably not a culture shock as much as I'm reflecting and thinking back. I was just a rookie. Like I said, I had nothing to lose. I had so much ambition and I still got it. I didn't soak up everything and anything at the time.

Carl (06:46)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (06:56)
I probably more the cultural differences that that was the big thing. Obviously with football being the number one over here rugby just sort of being secondary rugby played in perhaps not everywhere. You know, when you come to Africa, you put a rugby ball down, everyone's playing the game. But yeah, it was completely different.

Carl (07:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (07:20)
The biggest shock was probably the weather, you know? I was freezing my backside off in September and everyone was saying, wait till we get later. And then, but you know, it's the rugby community. I didn't know anyone when I had one friend who went to school with me that was over here. Apart from that, it was at many days where I sort of...

I'm like, geez, what am I doing? Am I doing the right thing? Yeah, shall I just go back home where everyone knows me and where people inflate your ego a little bit, you know? So, yeah, many of those days. So, yeah, so it wasn't a big shock. I knew, I was quite clear on what I wanted to achieve, you know? And like I say, I almost had nothing to go back to back home about for my family.

Carl (07:56)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (08:16)
So I had to go with that gamble I took.

Carl (08:19)
Yeah, fair play. What a journey. So a lot of your sort of coaching coaching has been around the sort of the seven circuit. Is that fair to say? Apart from obviously, Quins and stuff. Now you sort of seem to be dragged into a lot of the seven circuit. Is that your preference or is it just they make a call and they put the check on the table and you go where it goes?

Warren Abrahams (08:45)
You know how we are in a rugby world. We like to label everything. I always say coaches that sort of my age that sort of come through my journey. Sevens wasn't a pathway. There's no real sevens pathway for you to go right. I'm going to specialize in sevens. You had to be a 15s coach. You got to learn. You got to...

Carl (08:52)
Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (09:15)
And that's where the foundations is born and I'm still at heart a 15s coach. But then if you, especially here in the Northern Hemisphere, if you progress into the sevens and you start doing well, you then obviously get labeled as a sevens coach. You were sevens specialist. But look, for me, I always, I always look...

Carl (09:33)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (09:42)
The time when I coached, I coached Harlequins and England sevens for five years at the same time. And I love that. Although my brain was rattling on a daily basis, you've got, you're working with the best sevens players in the world at the time. That's making you better at coaching. Then you go over to Harlequins, then you obviously in that 15 space, you work with some of the best young players and you look at the English squad that's just been announced, the number of those boys who's,

Carl (09:47)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (10:11)
who's representing England on the summer tour, for instance. So you still have to coach equally as well as you possibly can, but it's just the conversations that's slightly different. The tactics is obviously a little bit different, but I use that as one was always making me better. So sevens was making me better at finding the smaller things, 15s was making me better at looking at the big.

Carl (10:28)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (10:40)
tactical systems pictures and you try and transfer the thing to ultimately you're coaching people and you're going to to ridiculously good at unlocking the best out of the people. So have I got a preference, probably having more fun on the sevens circuit because the game is a little bit more exciting. The game is you're in that pressure cooker, not week to week, but moment to moment, which I absolutely love. Your brain is going.

Carl (11:05)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (11:10)
Your brain is going nuts. You know, you're preparing against one country and within an hour and a half, you've got to prepare against another country.

Carl (11:19)
You see the instant results Warren as well, don't you? It's not like you've got to wait a week or two weeks if there's a game, like a gap, like you've literally got an hour and a half to turn your shit around. If you screwed it up the last game, you've got to literally be on your feet and all over it. So that's a true sign. So Rusty was here on the other week as well. And he sort of asked him the question, he said about sevens players, should more players...

Warren Abrahams (11:21)
Yeah.

yeah.

Carl (11:47)
play sevens and coaches also to go and adapt their ability a bit of self development. Do you do you agree with that or do you think actually that it's beneficial or some some players are not that way inclined? I know that some people aren't and some people are but do you think it will make most players better and coaches?

Warren Abrahams (12:06)
Yeah, I'm a big and probably this is me and Rusty out by biases, probably a little bit more towards towards the the sevens, because obviously we've we've learned some pretty cool lessons that make both of us better. But yeah, it all you know, we've had this conversation many times. My I believe if you play there, you look at someone like Gabriel Aubry, who's just been selected. He was in there briefly within in.

in the 7s a hooker, you see, you look at his skillset, you know, you look at Will Muir you look at Rory McConnachie, you look at the guys who's now coming back. Anton DuPont has got rookie of the year, you know, won the Champions Cup the week before, instantly France has now, he played three tournaments, France has won two of them and got a bronze medal, you know.

Carl (12:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (13:02)
So, and even Hugo Keenan jumping in as well. And then it's all about, you know, I think you gotta get the model right. If your model is about producing top end, like South Africa's model is about producing Springboks and you can see the likes of Cheslin Kolbe , Kwagga Smith, all these guys coming through the sevens ranks. And then you can see their skillset and their playing ability.

at that level, so same with the Aussies, same with the Kiwis, it's about building that model. I reckon if you, like, probably the best example is I took this group of 18, 19, 18 year old boys, I took them to the Youth Commonwealth Games, all in academies, mainly in academies, and I took them to the Youth Commonwealth Games and we won silver. And I remember thinking, Jeez imagine you've gone,

these group of young players, all of them, probably 90 % of that squad is still playing in a premiership. Ollie Sleightholme just won the premiership at the weekend, you know, he was in that squad.

Carl (14:12)
He didn't do too bad at the weekend, did he? He hadn't done too bad all season, to be fair.

Warren Abrahams (14:17)
Yeah, so imagine you've got your top and the young players obviously position specific, but you look at the hookers back rowers, even some of the second rowers and then obviously your outside backs. Imagine they developing with a clear plan within that sevens framework from week to week.

And that's just the tactical part. The hardest part of sevens is the mental skills, the capacity to go from one to the next to the next, knowing that your body is absolutely dead. Going from moment to moment, but not just in competition. Monday to Friday is incredibly hard in the sevens. So imagine the level of resilience you can build in this young people. So answer your question, man. I think it's an awesome tool for.

Carl (14:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (15:09)
to develop these young players, young coaches, throw him in there in the deep end. I was lucky enough to work with Simon Amo who absolutely growed me in that environment. But I'm grateful because it transformed the way I coach.

Carl (15:25)
Yeah, brilliant. So is that sort of blocked by the Premiership clubs or is it just because it's not in the norm, as me and Rusty also was discussing? If it's in the norm, that seems to be how we toe a line in rugby. But is it because that's slightly left field that that's not in the current framework for most sort of academy systems to say, actually, sod it we're going to send these players off for?

two months on that circuit to improve this, this and this? Or is it just not in the circuit so they're just not interested because they're 15s players?

Warren Abrahams (15:59)
Yeah, I think our biggest problem is none of the home unions have a sevens program. That's just funding. That's just the world we are. That's why we had to go to Team GB, you know. I think that's probably our biggest issue. So we've lost, we've definitely lost something there and then strip that further back.

Carl (16:07)
Do you reckon that's because of the weather? We're just totally not interested because the weather's so shit.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (16:25)
Obviously the clubs are independently owned, so their agenda is completely different. It's about producing first team players, because that's where ultimately, that's where their revenue and success lay. So again, it's probably a political conversation far bigger than me and you. But I still believe deep down in my heart that we've got an exceptional young...

Carl (16:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (16:53)
player and we want to accelerate his development. You can just see like how quickly guys get drafted into the all -black team, for instance, you know, sevens and then bam, they get him ready there. All of a sudden he's an all -black.

Carl (17:13)
What if the Prem teams created a Prem Sevens tournament and then used that as part of it and made that so obviously rugby are looking at trying to use the Sevens circuit as a way to rebrand and save rugby. Obviously the short form content is massive within society. What if the Prem teams come up with the Sevens side with the Academy lads or whatever one of the lads that's coming back from injury dots in.

They have a Friday night gathering of X amount of games, get it done a lot of bit like a T20 format. I think they used to do that as well, didn't they? For some bits, but do you think that could work? And then obviously that would still appease the people, the privately owned businesses, but also help development of the game to the masses as well.

Warren Abrahams (18:01)
Yeah, we tried that, you know, and I can 100 % say being involved in that, that's probably the most fun some of those young players have. I remember taking a young Harlequin squad to Melrose 7s, and we won that Melrose competition. And you just look at the names on there, these guys were like 18, 19, 20, unbelievable.

Carl (18:19)
Yeah, yeah.

Warren Abrahams (18:28)
and now really successful players in the Premiership. And then we've obviously had the Premiership competition. And one of the lessons there was probably it's where it's at. I remember having to prepare a team and I got told by our Director of Rugby at the time, you can't train with them, you won't have them, they'll just turn up. They'll just have to turn up.

on the day and you can only have these five guys and I'm going, okay, so I've got this small group of players. So, and I went, can I make my own team then? So there's a group of players and then I took my England Sevens Academy boys and I matched them together and I coached them via WhatsApp, you know, like.

key strategic things and then bam, off we went and we go play in this competition. And I remember the commentators questioning me on how much preparation and training does. This is what's up. This is like how these guys learn now, you know, they instant instant information there. So just evolve with the world there. But probably.

Carl (19:45)
does that work? How does that work then Warren on whatsapp? Are you like doing the setups in the garden? Have you got like loads of little bits and like running around trying to record yourself to send what you have done?

Warren Abrahams (19:55)
I know, I've just had this last week out in Amsterdam. We've got so much access to so much knowledge. You play some of those World Series games, you clip them up for the guys and you use Keynote and you put some of the kick -off systems, the principles you want to play and you give them some cool examples that might be a voiceover.

Carl (20:20)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (20:24)
It might be just a video example, you know, and they see that, you know, these Gen Z, these alphas, they see that information, bam, they process it real quick. And just about priming, you know, you do all the stuff beforehand. Hopefully it lands, but when you have the conversations, there's a great understanding and...

Carl (20:36)
They're off, yeah.

Warren Abrahams (20:49)
and then they fly, you know? All these young people, they've got their access to their phone 24 -7, so as coaches, we might as well use it.

Carl (20:56)
Yeah.

That's fair play. So obviously you're part of the Brazil set up at the minute. Is the passion and the hunger over there for rugby as big as it is in the rest of the world, in other places, or is it still sort of grassroots? Because I managed to see Brazil play Canada over in Spain. So I managed to see them down at La Vila And their 15s looked phenomenal for maybe the first...

60 minutes and then sort of the gas tank emptied quite quickly but you could see that they've got some serious development coming through and some really good set up on the 15s level. Is that become a country -wide thing or is that still sort of very entry level over there in Brazil?

Warren Abrahams (21:46)
No, I've been with them now for probably sort of four years after the end of the last Olympics and then leading up into this one. And yeah, the growth has been exceptional. The growth, even especially around the women's game over there, it's been fascinating. And the number of players they're producing, they've got some really cool KPIs and plans in place around how they drive development. You know, they've got...

Carl (21:50)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (22:16)
I've just been out there a few weeks ago and they've got one pitch. It's not quite a 4G. It used to be a 4G but a little different now because of the number of teams. It's Academy teams, it's the national teams, it's the 18s, it's the 20s, it's the women, it's the Cobras who play in the Sudamericas. So they've got big numbers. So the development has...

Carl (22:25)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (22:45)
grown a lot over there, but obviously it's a country dominated by football, and a country so big, I don't even think they can reach some of the potential they've got. But they...

Carl (22:53)
Yeah.

So they've not got teams playing alongside the Amazon just yet then. It's not...

Warren Abrahams (23:07)
I don't think they have. But I think a couple of the girls is not far from there. Atalita Costa, or Talia Costa and Talita, they're twins and they're absolute freaks, you know. Atletics freaks. You saw the tries he scored on the World Series. But they're from near there, you know. So these girls come far.

Carl (23:15)
Really?

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (23:32)
all over the country. But in terms of answering your question of course, the growth has been unreal. And obviously, they've got the woman who plays in the World Cup qualifier. The men's sevens is going to the rep a chance for the Olympic. You've got the women's sevens who's just qualified to retain our position on the World Series and then obviously going to the Olympic.

Then you've got the 15s men who plays in that Super Rugby, South America Super Rugby campaign. So there's loads going on there, you know, so they're on the right track. So there's a decent buzz going on at the moment.

Carl (24:11)
Yeah, it was.

Have they got much of a sort of a club rugby system? Have they got like a Prem division or because I was speaking to a bloke from Argentina the other day and he was, he said that obviously they've got, they've got a few teams and sort of a few pro teams but they've got quite an established sort of amateur level underneath semi -pro piece. But then there's like similar to the Europe Super Cup, they've got teams from different parts of South America that play at their top elite level for the 15s.

I don't think you mentioned that Brazil was part of it. Have they got that set up there? Have they got one super team that they dragged together from any clubs that are around in Brazil or is it not quite there yet?

Warren Abrahams (24:56)
Yeah, so that's the Cobras. So they play in that league with Uruguay and America. It's almost like a second division of the MRL. So they play in that league. So yeah, so quite... And most of those guys would then make up the national men's 15s team. And then the women's league is more like a sevens league, just purely based on...

Carl (24:59)
Wow, okay.

Okay.

Warren Abrahams (25:25)
based on where they are, what numbers.

Carl (25:26)
growth and stuff. Yeah, yeah. So I guess if they've got big plans, are they going to be sort of playing in Rio and taking over the Macarena, their main stadium

Warren Abrahams (25:38)
I'm not sure they're at that level yet. I'm not sure they're at that level, but that country is so big, just at the level of potential they have there for growth and further development is quite massive. I've never been to a fixture within Brazil, so I'd like to experience that just to see what type of

Carl (25:41)
Hehehehe

Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (26:08)
what their version of the rugby community looked like. So when I go, it's more like performance. You go in, get the work done and sort of try and experience a little bit of the country. But yes, quite a different sort of experience when I do go to get hands on.

Carl (26:12)
Yeah, yeah.

Get out.

Nice. So you say, have you got a recurring contract to the plan to stay with Brazil or is that sort of up for renewal soon?

Warren Abrahams (26:41)
Yeah, so I go to the Olympics coming up. That's sort of the last one for this campaign. And then it's the head coach, Will Broderick, a young fellow, reached out to me about four years ago who I've been sort of helping and mentoring and guiding and assisting. He's actually stepping down. So he's finishing up after the Olympics.

And then it's still working out whether I'm staying on or have I done enough that I possibly can do. They've asked various questions around potentially taking over stuff. Look, that's conversation with my boss over here. And then we'll have a look and see if she agrees with any of those stuff. You know?

Carl (27:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you, so have they sort of tried to put somebody alongside you to try and help develop the coaching level as well, or have they kind of left you to it to bring you in and you do that, or do you work with just the players, or do you sort of help try and develop the coaching standard out there as well?

Warren Abrahams (27:54)
Yeah, so I work closely with Will, who's been the head coach. He's a young English fellow, speaks fluently Portuguese, but he was new to the game at that level, you know, and the press and that type of stuff. And then every time I'm there, I'm in camp, it's trying to not just the stuff in between the lines, but also sort of to be like part of the strategic

Carl (28:02)
well.

Warren Abrahams (28:24)
planning and preparation in terms of where we're pushing the game, where we're pushing coaches and trying to mentor and guide and facilitate. You know, so I support on every part of building a high performance environment. If that answers your question.

Carl (28:42)
no, because yeah, sometimes some places they sort of, that's it, you come in, you do that bit and then you're sort of out the door, but by the sounds of it, they're lapping everything up from what you can tell them, so.

Warren Abrahams (28:50)
Yay.

 trying to make it more of a sort of a connected environment, you know, so at the start it was probably very like silo, like S&C works over there, mindset, mental skills over there, nutrition and rugby sits over here, you know, so you connecting everyone together and we go, right, how do we make these people better? Yeah, in front of us where we are now.

more of a sync vehicle trying to do everything possible to maximize human performance, you know, from the head.

Carl (29:32)
No, it sounds really impressive. Obviously, we've mentioned it a couple of times, but do you think rugby as a whole moves too slowly to be agile enough in the current society from what you've found?

Warren Abrahams (29:49)
That's a great question, you know. For me, I always say, you know, it's never the game, it's always the people within the game. That's always...

Carl (29:58)
Yeah, but unfortunately those people are at the top that make those decisions at the time, and that's the hard bit. It's a big tarnished brush, Warren, are we?

Warren Abrahams (30:03)
Okay.

Yeah, 100%. So for me, it's like, if we've got the right people in place, the game is going to move pretty fast. I think rugby is sometimes very stuck in its ways, you know? It's like a lot of old thinking. We love the old thinking. It's like if you've been involved in the...

in playing in the Premiership, you automatically become a commentator and a pundit. And it's like everything is like same, same, same, same. We don't quite, I don't think we're quite at the at a place where we can just diversify things, you know, real quick. But then on the flip side as well, you look at the work Rob Fickerman and his guys are doing within the within the sevens.

Look at how quickly the the Premiership finals sold out. You look at how quickly the the Champions Cup sold out the other day. So so we we're there. We just we're not very good at perhaps we're good at criticizing every little ince and everything we do within the game. No, but we're not celebrating these people.

well enough, you know, the, I think there's definitely a way to, when I grew up, you know, Chester Williams was my hero because he was the only guy that looked like me, you know, so I'm going to naturally gravitate to him. But imagine we can now create more stories. We can, we can, we can create more role models. I don't think we quite have those.

Carl (31:48)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (32:01)
those type of role models or like superheroes in our game. I think Anthony Du Pont is probably the one, but everyone talks about him, you know, because it's, so he's been turned into a superhero. But imagine we do this more and more with some of our other players, both in the male and the female game. I think we can use...

today's technology and advances to make the game more attractive. We've got to bring to the game, there's too many stuff around, the game isn't safe. So everyone's talking about that part. So that, if that ever is said, then get pushed up quite high into the media and into people's heads. But what about the other cool bits that's going on?

Carl (32:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (32:57)
experience is in town next week, I guarantee you, there's not a lot of people probably who knows that. But, you know, so there's so much room and opportunity for us to just think a little bit differently about the game, you know, and turn these guys into superheroes by making them more accessible. You watch.

Carl (33:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (33:24)
Mapimpi walked into the supermarket in South Africa the other day and people go nuts and it's singing and you know, you don't, I don't feel you have access to our superstars really. That'd be my view and bear in mind I'm probably closer than most people to some of these players and coaches, you know.

Carl (33:33)
Yeah.

Yes, because America do it right, don't they? So you kind of become the brand, but the brand, the NFL sort of own the brand and own certain player rights and image rights. And I think they managed to do that very well. Obviously the way it's because Maro signed for Rock of, was it Rock of Rock Nation? Yeah. So I thought, I think a lot of people sort of thought actually might.

Warren Abrahams (34:10)
I should.

Carl (34:16)
be able to sort of step out into the limelight a little bit more and become that superhero, that sort of icon around the world. But I don't know, do you think the rugby fraternity of kind of trying to pull him ground in, trying to make it not like him to stand out? Because a lot, it's a typical way within rugby. If you stand out and you're different.

you're not always accepted. So sometimes it's easier for your brand to be protected. Like Joe Marler is Joe Marler Some people love him, some people hate him. But he's got his brand. Same with Haskell, same with other lads. Obviously, Kyle Sinclair, as you said, you know pretty well. If you get onto Instagram, you see that. But that is, again, within the rugby community. You can kind of find those people within it. You don't see them outside.

the rugby, because on Netflix obviously we had the Six Nations documentary, which I thought was brilliant, really really good, but I wonder how many of those were people that didn't understand rugby that actually watched it. The viewing figures were probably subsistence by rugby fans. It's the same with The Rising Sun. If you pushed that out and marketed that in a different way, it could potentially open the door to a lot more people, but it's, I think as a sport with

really shit at marketing, which I don't think helps anyone and to move the game forward. But do you think somebody's got to go and sit down with the NFL or something like that from World Rugby or whoever just to understand how to market something like this?

Warren Abrahams (35:49)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I guarantee these conversations are happening, whether I can't see them not happening. That that's sort of my view. So it's it's for us to then work out how we. How we tell that story differently would be would be my my view. And if we can just if we can.

Carl (36:05)
Okay.

Warren Abrahams (36:27)
If we can bring that to people's attention in the way this current climate is evolving, I think we can bring these people, we can bring them and market them in a complete different way. All these guys, for instance, have access to...

to social media. I think the challenge here is as soon as these guys post anything, anything they get, so sometimes it's, sometimes it's what we do in rugby is we belong to exist.

because we got to feed into the narrative, it's like you say, I've been there myself. If you don't fit in, you get labeled as difficult to work with, always having a different opinion. Just purely because we're not comfortable in sometimes seeing the world completely from a different lens, if that makes sense.

Carl (37:28)
Yeah.

Do you think people are not as willing to sort of look at themselves as well? Self -development is quite a closed piece with a lot of people. They're not very self -aware. And do you think we've probably gathered that whole group of people that aren't self -aware that actually watch rugby? There's probably a lot of people that are in their own little bubble, but aren't self -aware on certain things. Do you think that's where we're at? Or is that just society and we're the odd ones out?

Warren Abrahams (38:13)
That's a good way of thinking about it. It's an interesting one. There's some really good people in our game that's got their hearts in the right places and wants to do the best possible thing for the game.

And then there's also some not so good people in our game that's out for their own individual agendas. So it's, I suppose it's, my view is always you've got to, if you want to make people better, it has to start with yourself from a coaching perspective. So you got to look at ways to get yourself better.

Carl (38:48)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (39:08)
Even if your coach is so important, you got to look at like what is those spiritual things? What is the mental, physical things? And then your tactical and technical stuff should be right at the bottom of your needs. If you think about Maslow's hierarchy, you know, it should be right at the bottom of the pile. And you got to work out, you got to feed yourself first. If you start feeding yourself.

and find all those key ingredients, they're going to help you make the people that you need to coach better. So that's always my view. It starts with us as individuals. So whoever's there at the top of the table having these conversations, it's we got to perhaps, you know, because everything is driven by financial incentives. We got to maybe just drive everything towards the product. You know, if we look at Saturday, there was

thirty people on the grass selling a product, you know, plus then you bring your subs on. So that's our product. So how do we make this product exciting so people want to buy it? You know, that's probably the missing piece. Maybe they need to go to Google. Yeah, because everyone goes to Google if they want to know something. So maybe take the game to Google and go, right, how do we bring people to the game? So maybe the lesson sits there, you know.

Carl (40:30)
Yeah.

I think that Prem 7 idea earlier was, obviously they've already trialled, I think that's the short form T20 blast or something that we can, because Spain have obviously, they're really pushing with their seven circuit and their men's TikTok, I think, has just reached 100 ,000 views or 100 ,000 followers on their TikTok and it's been categorised as a thirst trap

because most of the blokes are on their shirts off, they're an incredible Nick. So fair play to him coming from a prop that looks like a melted wheelie bin. I could only ever imagine to be a rig like that. But people have looked into the amount of followers they've got and most of them, I think 75 % of that 100 ,000 followers have come from women. Obviously them running around with their tops off in the change room, all that sort of stuff.

They're usually the highest views and the highest likes. And obviously the old adage of sex sells. Do you think we're also, I think Spain have probably opened the door on that. Do you think that behind the scenes stuff is accessible enough? I know a lot of the clubs that social media aspects and stuff and you see obviously Northampton Saints at the weekend in there singing the song, banging the shoes, that sort of.

Warren Abrahams (41:35)
Yeah, yeah.

Carl (42:01)
Do you think that behind the scenes is as much as it should be and as accessible in short form for the attention, as you said, the Gen Z with the easy access, short form, low attention span in out job done?

Warren Abrahams (42:21)
Yeah, we're not doing enough of that. We gotta take the people to the pressure cooker. They gotta get a feeling for it. I love that interview the other day with Johnny May on TNT Sport as he was going into the changing room before they come out to the warm up and he said to...

to the presenter, he said, this is the worst time. This is the time he absolutely hates. This space, this next 20 minutes or so, this is the time he absolutely hates. He feels sick in his stomach, you know? We don't see that. If he didn't say that, we'd have never known. You know, sometimes as a performance coach, you're standing there in the...

Carl (43:01)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (43:15)
in the middle before game, you know, the nerves is going, everything is going, loads of different things goes through your head. So imagine what the guys might be feeling and then you sometimes wonder why they make certain decisions, you know, but it's easy from the from from sofa. But if we understand, I think the BT guys, TNT now, I think Ugs and those boys are trying to...

Carl (43:25)
players are doing.

Warren Abrahams (43:45)
to make it more exciting at moments. But then I'm not a football guy. I'm not a big football guy, but I watched the pre -game analysis the other day and bam, I was sitting up and I go in, jeez, look at just the animation and the way they talk about it. And do you see what I mean? So there's definitely, people are craving. I want to know what...

Carl (44:07)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (44:13)
what some coaches are thinking, you know? That would be pretty cool. I want to know what the best players are going through. I've got that access, like I said, with Kyle Sinclair at the moment. I know exactly how he feels, how he thinks, how he defines it. By matching, we can give that to the public. You think about Owen Farrell's situation just during the World Cup. Probably England's best ever player. Arguably, we can say that.

But the way we treated the guy, you know, that's not cool. That's not going to make our game go forward and grow because he doesn't deserve that. I imagine we...

Carl (44:47)
Yeah.

I think some people used him as an easy target as well because he's not accessible in the media, because he's not that sort of guy. He wants to live his life, he just goes about it, does his job, does his rugby, loves his rugby, but he's not a media guy. And I think people then think, well, he's too up his own ass, he doesn't want to talk to the general public, which is not the sort of, that's just not what you get the vibe. Some people get the vibe from her and he's just a quiet guy and he just does his stuff. And he's...

he's in where he is, but some people then use that as an easy target for certain people because they're not accessible.

Warren Abrahams (45:33)
Yeah, but imagine we could go tap into his brain, you know, the way he sees the game, the way he does.

Carl (45:39)
Yeah.

That's very Elon Musk there, Warren. No, that's NueraLinks I think there's a whole different kettle of game there if we get involved in that.

Warren Abrahams (45:44)
Thank you.

Just like, yeah, there's stuff there, the way you prepare. I know Jim Hamilton is doing some good stuff with Rugby Pass, but then that's on Rugby Passes and the app people needs to download it. It just becomes very complicated. You've got to sign in. We've got to just make it, we've got to find a simple, easy route. Bam, people can stick it on. I love the South African channel. You know, you've got that channel, you've got Rugby 24 -7. Same in New Zealand, it's Rugby 24 -7.

Carl (46:16)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (46:20)
Obviously, but then there's some other elements to that. But the guy I used to love having conversations with, Sissle Africa, one of the best playmakers that we probably had in the sevens game. Just his brain is like a computer, you know? Having for me as a young coach, really understanding how he sees it, how he feels out there, how he would strategize certain plays, et cetera. And you go, wow.

Carl (46:36)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (46:49)
This is pretty cool. But I just thinking as it's hot in my head now, I coached a girl, young Ilona Marsh. She's probably one of the best female sevens players around at the moment. But she blew up on TikTok. She's got millions, I think 1 .2, 1 .3 million followers on TikTok. So she's probably a big advocate for...

female performance and body image and she talks a lot of cool stuff on there that sort of closed this narrative on female athletes looking a certain way, you know? But the world's our oyster, yeah, that's probably the easiest way to answer it.

Carl (47:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly that. I know you said obviously you're not a big football fan, but they've done it on Arsenal, they've done it on Tottenham, they've gone behind the scenes and they've had cameras in and stuff and seen when players have been dropped and contracts not renewed and stuff like that. I don't think that door's been open enough in rugby. Do you think something like that might be able to be an easy marketable for players? The Australian cricket team did it around the ashes. They've done

a few series. Rising Sun's done to an extent, but that's on an international level. Do you think seeing inside the clubs at a Prem level might open the door and then you go and have one in America, you'd have one of the MLR teams or you'd have one of the Super Rugby teams or something like that, just to try and create a whole series around that. I know there was talks of it happening. I just don't think it's moved forward as much within rugby that...

makes that accessible for people to understand the intricacies that aren't part of the game. They'd be able to chuck that on, it'd be a six -part series, whatever, and they'd be able to see the inner workings, which might, one out of every 10 people, or one out of every 20 people might then think, actually, I really like the look of that, and then buy into it a little bit more. Do you think that sort of content would be ideal to expose the game inside out, as you said?

Warren Abrahams (48:59)
Yeah, that's.

Yeah, no, it will be. And, you know, then we've just got to, you got to find the right sort of stories to tell in those stuff. You know, we look at the Premiership of one they had. It was all right, but it was pretty bland and basic, you know, so.

Carl (49:28)
So they've probably missed the boat. The Northampton story is probably, or the Bath story was probably the one they could have jumped around because, well, Bath were what? Pretty much bottom 18 months ago. And now they're in, they just lost in a prem final. Like where are they going to be next year? If they've got the cameras in and said, well, hold on, relegations is off the table. Let's go. Why don't they go to Newcastle? They say, sod it, right? They're basically should have been relegated this season. Let's go and watch their...

Warren Abrahams (49:52)
Yeah.

Carl (49:58)
return, like a Phoenix Phoenix the Flames or whatever. Two years time they might win a European Cup. It's not going to happen, but that sort of story would get people to buy in. It was the same as when the class of 92 all the Man United players went and bought Salford and they managed to take them from like league 10 or whatever it was, then to now they're playing in league two, it's fourth division of English football.

Warren Abrahams (49:59)
Yeah.

Yes.

Carl (50:28)
Those sort of stories aren't shown within the game, but those do happen, like within rugby, but we just don't show it.

Warren Abrahams (50:37)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like I said, we've got so many, we've got so much, we've got access to so much knowledge and content and stuff that we can, you can share, you know. I was thinking about Beno Albano just yesterday, coach's brother for a long time. So you got right, how's he feeling today? What's going through? Ed, how's he gonna bounce back from this situation? What type of support is he getting?

100 % sure they'll give him a lot of care and guidance and support, no doubt, because you can just see how the boys rallied around him at the weekend. And obviously having one of the best mindset coaches. I know Katie Warren worked with him for a while, Peter Kruger's with him now, so he's got some good people there anyway. But yeah, so that'd be cool stuff. That'd definitely be cool stuff.

Carl (51:34)
Warren, I know you've not got too much longer, mate. So what has been your greatest success as a coach?

Warren Abrahams (51:41)
tough question this.

Carl (51:43)
I'm sure there's loads of little but there's got to be one that stands out you think actually of say Brazil you've the four years they've gone from nothing to there there's got to be one that stands out.

Warren Abrahams (51:54)
You know, it's the way I think about it nowadays. In the beginning, it was about winning titles and winning World Series events and winning all these medals and stuff. And you always measure success on that because, again, as we said, the narrative that's created in our game is like, if you win, you're successful and you're a pretty good coach, you know? So...

Carl (52:21)
Yeah.

Warren Abrahams (52:22)
So as a young coach, you fall into that trap. For me now, I'm as a success based on what these people are achieving that I've coached so far, you know, the small part I've played in their journey. So the guys who's, like I said, who's now been selected to play international rugby, so from a performance standpoint there, both men and women, you go right there.

I've had a small part, yeah, you know, and it's real good success. But then the other parts to it is all these guys who didn't make it along the way. You know, I was in a bakery with my daughter the other day and a guy ran over to me and he come and sort of run over into the bakery. He's like, are you Warren Abrams? I'm going, yeah.

He used to coach me when I was 13 years old. I was in the academy at the Harlequins and now he's a journalist. He was just in in Baylor, Bristol doing some work here. We had to go and interview somewhere. I go, geez, for me that is success stories. He didn't cross the road when he saw me. I have to go and walk.

Carl (53:42)
Yeah, that's top draw that.

Warren Abrahams (53:44)
For me, that's the stuff that excites me now when I'm back in South Africa, what our foundation in South Africa and seeing all these young people coming from nothing and disadvantaged areas and we put them in. They've got scholarships in some of the top schools in South Africa. Again, that's a measure of success for me.

probably the most exciting one for me was last year I coached, I got asked to come and help Bristol University.

But the guys who made the phone call for me to come and help them with the Sevens was four guys that I coached from 13 to 18 in Academy rugby, you know. Reach out and go, look, Warren, can you come and help us with our Sevens program? And I'm going, wow, yes, you know? And for me, that is, that's those type of stories. That's what I...

Carl (54:33)
Yeah, yeah.

quality.

Warren Abrahams (54:49)
what I measure as success at the moment because that is me loving truly to what I want to achieve and my mission as a coach. So yeah, I always say the other accolades and stuff, they're amazing, but they sometimes just remind people of your location, you know? That's all they do. So.

Carl (55:14)
Yeah.

Seeing the actual physical effect of what you've done on people is the biggest medal you could probably ever have as well. Because if you've changed the way somebody thinks or processes their day to day and impacts upon their life, I completely agree, mate. I think that's the biggest success as a coach. Because I coach kids out here as well and you just see the difference in how they've grown within the year. And then if you said you've managed to see...

kids through their academy as well. You must see how much, a couple of little things like as you say, you impact them and then they carry that on and then if they're willing to run across the road to chase you into a bakery or whatever, you know that you've made an impact and hopefully put them on the right path.

Warren Abrahams (56:04)
Now, 100%. And yeah, I'm jealous of you coaching out there in the sunshine, mate.

Carl (56:09)
It's actually started raining today but it's clearing the air. It's been about 30 degrees out of here the last few days. So it's a little bit warm so we do a thunderstorm. The game is not as well supported as it should be out here. I think it's on that precipice. If they can actually finally get into the World Cup, I think we should see the boom. But yeah, Beats being stood down in Gosport on a Sunday morning.

Warren Abrahams (56:40)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, of course, someone asked me the other day on a podcast or somewhere, it's like, if you can coach any or you can, if you can join a project, a coaching project now, which coaching project would I do? And I said, right, I would jump in with the Spanish woman because that is a project that you can, you can take to a completely new level, you know, because.

Carl (56:40)
That's for sure.

Yeah.

So we're actually going to see them, the 15s play. They're playing down at La Vila on Saturday against Canada. And yeah, they're an absolute force to be reckoned with. And as you say, if you get that advertising and marketing right, that could really take off. So it's a really exciting sort of space out here as well. And some really good teams, good way it's set up.

where it is, but it's probably about the fourth or fifth sport that over here at the minute. So that's the hardest bit that people have got to break through over here. So it'd be fun. So it's a nice way to look forward at least. So.

Warren Abrahams (57:42)
yet.

If not, let us know.

Carl (57:47)
Warren, I know you've got to get off to sort Kyle Sinclair's hands out before he goes to France, so to make sure they know what he's got. But what a pleasure it has been, Warren. Thank you so much. As I said earlier on before we started this, maybe we can get you and Rusty back on and have a sort of a mind off of coaching techniques and how the games move forward at some point in the future.

Warren Abrahams (58:11)
No, Carl, thank you. Firstly, thank you very much. Like I said, right at the top for having me. I'm always privileged when these things come around, you know. And yeah, 100 % jumping in with Rusty there. It would no doubt be a crazy conversation.

Carl (58:30)
I think that'll be a blinder, yeah. So I'll have to start working on Rusty around that. So.

Warren Abrahams (58:35)
especially having both of us in the same conversation, we can.

Carl (58:37)
yeah, we'd have to do like a super extended version of the pod. You'd have to cancel your diary for the day.

Warren Abrahams (58:40)
We can go multiple places but now look, appreciate the invite. Hope something lands on someone, you know. And then yeah, people want to get a hold of me, rugbycreative on Instagram and all the social stuff. I'm always willing to answer some questions there, yeah.

Carl (59:04)
Yeah, quality. When the pod goes out, we'll get that shared. But thank you, Warren. Really appreciate it.

Warren Abrahams (59:09)
Nah, thank you very much, mate. Enjoy your time. Cheers, bye bye.

Carl (59:11)
Cheers mate.

Carl (59:13)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. So in today's episode, we caught up with the legend that is Warren Abrahams. The man has done untold amounts within the game. De bunk, the myth that he'd pretty much become a seven specialist, and that seems to be a common buzzword within the game.

If you enjoy sevens and you specialize in that, you seem to be tarnished with that. Warren is a rugby coach with a depth of knowledge that just helps everyone that he gets the opportunity to meet. Absolute pleasure to have him on. be really great for him and Rusty to jump on together. think that would

an extra long episode, but 100 % worth it to tap into both of their knowledge. And as Warren said, not all success can be judged just off medals. It can also be judged off people crossing the road to say thank you so much or calling you up and saying what you've made a real difference. Can you come and help us again? Next episode, we have managed to get the newly appointed director of rugby on from Navy.

Navy rugby, so Tom Blackburn is coming on, talks about how he has stepped into the role, the ambitions of where that's going, how they want to close the gap further with the army, and obviously the challenge that's going to be in place to close that quite a wide gap with the army women's game. However, Top bloke really nice to catch up with him and...

a nice little door opening to Services Rugby as well and hopefully we can potentially work around the services to understand their challenges as well. So one for opening up a little lead for future pods but once again a huge thank you to you all for joining us and thank you and goodbye.