Episode 15 - The Charlie Beech Interview - From Northampton to Front Row Support

Charlie Beech shares his 20-year rugby journey, highlighting the challenges and financial struggles faced by professional rugby players. He discusses the mismanagement of the sport, the lack of support for transitioning athletes, and the impact of financial instability on players' careers. Charlie also introduces Front Row Support, an organization aimed at providing holistic support and networking opportunities for athletes transitioning out of professional sports. The conversation covers various themes related to the challenges and issues faced by professional rugby players, including financial support, pensions, aftercare, concussion management, and the commercialization of the sport. The discussion also delves into the disconnect between the grassroots game and the professional level, as well as the need for a unified approach to address these issues. The conversation covers the challenges and opportunities in growing the game of rugby union, focusing on the need for change at the grassroots level and the commercial viability of the sport. It also delves into the comparison with American football and the potential for a draft system in rugby. The conversation highlights the complacency and lack of innovation within the RFU and the need for a new approach to drive growth and engagement in the sport.

Transcript

Carl (00:12)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep shining a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I am Carl and thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod and keep in touch with us on our social media platforms. As I keep mentioning, a lot of these pods are pre -recorded at the minute because I'm out and about. So to keep the pod moving, we've done that as much as possible.

but a lot of the opinions and discussions may have played out in real time. So we still get to see the raw opinions of the amazing guests that we've had.

This week we have Charlie Beech on who's the founder of Front Row Support and is also leading the charge on supporting professional sports people on their exits from their relevant games. We get to discuss the amazing career Charlie had and also the truth about decisions made at crucial points in his career and also the raw values of what it costs to potentially go up and down the leagues of rugby at his time of his career as well.

It's great to see and discuss where that is and why a lot of players have to do a lot of other things extra. We really get to put the world to rights on this one. So let's just get on with another great rugby chat.

Carl (01:31)
Right, this week we've got Charlie Beech on. He's trying to give me a bit of a competition for a beard off in this one today with the pathetic attempts that we've had in previous pods. Charlie, thanks for coming on, mate. Really appreciate it.

For those that don't know, could you give us a bit of a down low of your rugby journey, where you've been, what you've done, what you've seen, and then we can sort of go from there, mate, really.

Charlie Beech (01:57)
Yeah, so I'm still playing now. I started about 20 years ago. Northampton Saints was my first club. I'm a backer player in all the England age groups, 16 through 20, so I played all over the place with them. Saints was my first club. London Wasps after that. Brief spell out in New Zealand in the middle of that as well. So I had a season out there learning some bits.

through to Bath, onto Leeds and then a couple other clubs on the way through and I'm now semi -pro out at Hull. So yeah, it took 20 odd years playing pro at different levels.

Carl (02:32)
Nice. So you've probably come across some half -decent players in your time. Who's the best player you played with then?

Charlie Beech (02:39)
I said, fun one. So obviously when you're a prop, it's like, what's funny, because in most positions you sort of pick the guy that's your number in another team or someone who's your position. But when you're a prop, it's usually the guys you're up against. So you're looking like monster tight heads. And the thing I always say to people is, was when I, because obviously you start as an academy boy, didn't you? So like, you know, you're young lads running around doing your bits. And the year I, and I stepped up in the first team while I was playing for Wasps when they were in London. And then -

Basically went and said, right, I want this money's what I want. I want it in a first team contract to miss out money. And they were like, yeah, not sure. Like, you know, we've got a few other bits going. Like, they'd spent all their salary cap, right? So they were trying to squeeze me in. And I went asking for stupid money, but I was asking for more than I was willing. And I was like, right. And I had three weeks. They were like, right, you've got three weeks. You've got three games. That's the only way you get on. First week was against Gloucester.

That when I Greg Somerville playing for them at the time the old black prop and So I'd week against him following week. I had census Johnson who's one of the biggest smart blokes you've seen your entire life and Then the third week I played against Newcastle and I had Carl Hayman so It was like week one week week to power power and technique

Carl (03:43)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (04:03)
The best I can say against Hayman was I held my shape while he used me as a human plow. But I got a contract at the end of it so I must have done well. So that's my baptism of fire, very much literally. So yeah, good fun.

Carl (04:05)
Wow.

Perfect.

So you basically got a contract off the back of not being folded up like a deck chair pretty much.

Charlie Beech (04:28)
Pretty much, I came out the end of it. I think I've broken a few bones and my own bones, not everybody else's. I survived. I think they've had to walk up after game three and they're like, yeah, you'll do. You'll do.

Carl (04:38)
Yeah, walking off with all your bones in a bag. Brilliant. So obviously on your journey through pro rugby, you've had a bit of a tour around. Was that down to preference or was that down to, as you said, positional?

options being available and contracts and stuff like that because obviously on the pods we like to talk about that there's no depth within the English game over in France you've got sort of four pro leagues were you trying to have them to sort of go around the the premiership and get what was what was available because there wasn't the option in the championship at when you wanted to be at that top level.

Charlie Beech (05:20)
Yeah.

It was a funny one, I mean, I saw Northampton, I left, they went down the era I left. And so I probably moved out of naivety, because, you know, I don't like, you know, I don't think it's what it was. So my first contract was for 6 ,000 pounds, which is like nothing, like 500 quid a month pocket money, but yeah, so I made it. So it was literally like.

Carl (05:53)
wow. Geez.

Charlie Beech (05:57)
nothing. So I was on that, something similar to that the second year, third year was supposed to step up. So I never really got to my third year, they got relegated. And they wanted me to stay. But then Wasp moved in and offered triple the money. So I was like, well, that's absolutely amazing. Like, you know, clearly this is me off to the big time sort of thing. So moved down to Wasp. Didn't really calculate the fact that in Northampton, when you're being given a house and your food and you know, your rent's paid for and...

That £500 a month goes a hell of a lot further than a decent sum of money down in London because it just got hoovered. There were other reasons behind it, but when you go down there and you meet Craig Dowd is going to be your forwards coach, like all black legend, and you get to meet some of the guys. Because obviously at the time, Wasps probably had 15 internationals in there starting in 15. It was absolutely insane. So it was like, yeah, that's a great club to go to. So money turned my head, London turned my head, went down the moon.

Carl (06:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (06:56)
and left Wasps four years later. Some of it was to do with family, some of it was to do with sort of going around helping with that, some of it was...

they said the opportunity i think sometimes it's hard being a first team player where youve been an academy that is never quite lose that's not my always be on my proven himself it's like you can always come back and again i thought that i would do that from them with a lot of this time and the Bath was a great option and again so maybe that's what's great people like and Neil Hatley to was made down there and then

Carl (07:17)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (07:34)
Dave Flattman was there at the time and there's some real good... and I've always loved Bath, Bath's a glorious place to be to live the place. I was like, I'm more than happy to move down there. And then, yeah, there it was game time. So I left there, to be honest. I played 40 games in two seasons, which is pretty much every game. But I was on the bench in all of them, bar, bat, two or three. And I was like, I want to establish myself as a match starter.

Carl (07:58)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (07:58)
And like you say, the only way I could do that at the time without that sort of pedigree of having started many more games other than cherry picking maybe a team that was struggling for a loose head. It was all if you drop a league and then you get the start. So, Bath offered me out on loan to Leeds for a while, absolutely. It got to start, play start in rugby. So, went there and never left really.

Carl (08:16)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (08:23)
You know, so I bounced around other clubs, still on my way up to retirement, but Leeds was kind of my last sort of main club. And yeah, played over 100 games for them, started most of them, and I had a great time, just never really then, my priorities changed in life, I never really then sort of chased going back up into the Premiership, it was never really on the cards for me, didn't really want it at that point, I had kids and things to be looking after and sort of looked more than I really missed.

Carl (08:44)
Nah.

Charlie Beech (08:46)
yeah now that's been been out of a hell of a run race.

Carl (08:49)
Do you think

Yeah, do you think that obviously without that option to diversify, dropping down, still making a salary of it, a proper salary that you would sort of target in, do you think that also loses a lot of other players that we've probably lost within the system? We had Joe Batley on who's a pro at Bristol at the minute, and he was saying that obviously he got diagnosed with cancer.

Charlie Beech (09:13)
Mm.

Carl (09:17)
when he was 21, when he was at Bristol when they were in the championship. So they managed to look after him. He then went to Worcester and then Worcester went pop just after he joined. So he's back at Bristol now, but he was saying that there's a lot of lads that after Worcester went pop, there's 150 players potentially that become back available in the pool when everyone signed it finally went pop. He said a lot of them have actually just walked away from the game because they can't.

because they're at a certain age bracket, they can't drop down to make a salary in that. They're probably not, I think one of them's gone over to America to get his payday. So it's, I just don't understand as the home of rugby why we haven't got that level of depth. And as you said about Wasps as well, whether they asked you to stay, I think it was quite well recorded by Haskell as well that.

He was constantly, he'd have a season and then they would say, yeah, you're going to get more money. And then they'd come in with a low ball offer to try and, because they just couldn't never balance the books. Is that literally the state of English rugby?

Charlie Beech (10:25)
Thanks.

Yeah, very much sure it is. It's something that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now is that athlete transition piece, sort of helping the lads out when, you know, I'm not just tied to rugby, I'm not just tied to blokes, but I said so lads, because it's just where we run, but like looking after people after they've retired and where they go and how they do it. And, you know, a lot of that stems from the fact that we're not being looked after while we're playing. There's just, there's not the money in the game that there should be.

I'm fully aware that there's other people that turn up but I was at the Gloucester game at Tottenham a couple weeks back when they played the what was the Natale Sharks, I think it's Hollywood Bets Sharks now.

Kingsholm holds what 16 ,000 people around that. There must have been at least 30 ,000 Gloucester fans. Yeah, there's about 30 ,000 people wearing red and white sat in London. Right? And you're going to see, you know, coming wrong. Some of them will just be rugby fans sat in London and pulled a red and white shirt. I'm absolutely sure. But the fact that you can take a game across the width of the country and put it somewhere else.

Carl (11:18)
Yeah, something like that, yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (11:39)
pretty much double the home attendance. It's like, you can't tell when there's not the interest. It's just that the game, it's not a commercial entity. Like every club is relying on, you know, sponsors, owners who are just happy to pour money in because they love the game. Like there's not, when you look at the numbers of, you know, bums on seats, how many they can get on the seats, what they're spending, how they're doing it. Most clubs don't own their own grounds. And you know, so even if they do,

20 ,000 people through the door they get most of money from the tickets like It's just it's an horrible state and a lot of that in my mind sits with You look at the RFU minimum criteria stuff most of the times the Premiership don't don't meet it You know, they wonder why it's not working because you're your financial viability Model don't even apply to most of the people in top flight. I think they're just they're literally banking entirely on TV money TV rights and that's why I

Carl (12:15)
Mm.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (12:35)
they've done away with the whole promotion relegation bit to get a bit of stability in there so that the TV know they're working with. So, yeah, to me it needs redressing because when you look at how strong, like you said, it's the Home of rugby, right? We've got, you know, the public school system, there is more than enough money in public schools and the people that play it that traditionally were a lot of.

professional rugby players come from. I was a club rugby boy who got picked up into the public school system. I was a state school boy at GCSE level. When I played England 16s there was a squad of about 24 and I was one of four that was state school as opposed to public school. But if you look at the strength of the club game, the local club game, there's local rugby union clubs absolutely everywhere, there's sponsors everywhere, there's more than enough support and money that managed right. This game should be huge.

Carl (13:09)
Yep.

Charlie Beech (13:29)
It's never gonna arrive in football in this country and I wouldn't expect it to but it could be a lot closer. So without that there, there's not, you know, it's like I say with Worcester, Cecil Duckworth was the guy that used to pile money in, he died, his sons didn't want her, the whole thing went. Wasps never had a owner, never had a home ground, that went. Obviously Irish went. Madeski they were probably paying rent at. Jersey was fucked when it went but again the money out in Jersey is a different ball game. I just...

you get to a point you say there's only 10 teams left and even if you know squad size of 40 that's only 400 people playing it there's a lot more than that playing what the player professional would be you know Ealing got some cash in the champs rather than that like there's not a lot of jobs as you say when a club goes bust it's like it's just not the room for it it should be but they're int

Carl (14:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, but I think that's so obviously we're recording this a little bit ahead of time for people that are listening. Yesterday, which was Monday, the 3rd of June, they chucked out a statement to all championship clubs and they are a few have actually tried to strong arm all of the championship clubs into signing an agreement to only receive four million pounds a year to be shared between all of the championship clubs.

and they're offering, the only way for them to be promoted is by a playoff, which has obviously become so wide, the gaps are so wide, it's just never gonna be closed because of that. They're on about distributing 35 million between the 10 clubs, the Premiership clubs on top. So they're basically ring -fencing and protecting that at the detriment of championship rugby.

Charlie Beech (14:49)
Yeah.

Carl (15:16)
But in the statement that they've released, they've also said they're trying to do it to grow the game. How the fuck is four million pound being shared between 12 championship teams going to grow the game?

Charlie Beech (15:31)
The RFU to me needs an absolute right. Yeah, I don't, I really don't. Because there was a point, forgive me if I get the numbers wrong, but there was a point where it was something like 200 grand a year went to the champ clubs. This was a few years back, so it was like they knew what they were getting every year based their budgets on it. And then it was like overnight. And it was like eight schools, people had always...

Carl (15:34)
Just don't get it.

Yeah, I think that was around the 2015 -2017 announcement, wasn't it?

Charlie Beech (15:57)
Yeah, around there. Then some of them just went, actually next year it's 80.

Carl (15:59)
2015 -2017 they announced, yeah.

Charlie Beech (16:03)
Yeah, they literally just dumped it by more than half overnight, no warning and nearly end of the season. So like, you know, contracts had already been agreed. So they had to go back and completely rip up a lot of them. And there's only really, like I say, Ealing are pretty much the only team left in the Championship. I know Donny tried to be, but I know what they're paying some of the players and it's not a professional wage at all. When you kind of go in, there's just not any desire from the top to have anything other than this like super league style.

Carl (16:04)
Yeah, literally just hacked it.

Charlie Beech (16:33)
You know, this is our Premiership, these are the only people we bother about. The RFU should just take them and be their governing body and sod off and let the rest of us look after actual proper English rugby or British rugby, frankly, because it's all, you know, so the Irish system works, but the Welsh have played the top players' role for years. The Scots, I know, have got a couple of teams. You know, Border Evers were still a thing when I was coming through and then they fell over. Like, you know, the RPAs...

more or less entirely with the RFU now as well, which is, you know, they've sort of been endorsed by and hired out of and it's just, yeah, the whole thing sticks to me. And I'm sat there as a lad as those, you know, I found rugby at the age of six and it's very much sort of paved the way for my entire life. Like, you know, I ended up at an amazing school as a rugby, like I met my family through rugby. I've met, you know, a friend, rugby's been everything to me. And it's like...

It's just watching it being mismanaged by people and knowing there's not a lot you can do about it. I find it really frustrating. Which again is part of why I do what I do now because it's that kind of trying to reform things from the bottom and sort of make it strong enough at the bottom that the top can say and do what they want and hopefully we can sort of withstand it and offer some support in a different way really. yeah, a few axes to grind with the RFU.

Carl (17:52)
Do you feel you got paid what you should have for putting your body on the line for 20 odd years in the game?

Charlie Beech (18:00)
It's a funny one, right? Because my older brother was a pro footballer, right? And when I joined Northampton, I was... So there was a point where we were earning the same money, but he was playing for St Albans, whatever league they were in, out of the ranks at the time. And he was literally training once a week and playing on Saturday. I was...

training full time against some absolute monsters. Cause when I was at Northampton, you had like, you know, just for the England team alone, you had Steve Thompson, Ben Cohen, Matt Dawson, Paul Grayson. You had this, some of the biggest people I've seen in my life. The who's who's cast of who I've been around is insane. Like Carlos Spencer was playing 10. Bruce Rayhanna at 15. Like Kona Krieger joined the year after from South Africa. Absolute mutant of the human being. Like...

Just big, big people. And I'm this 18 year old prop. You play a Monday night game for the second team. You're first thing Tuesday morning holding the tackle back, getting run into at full tilt by a giant Tom and prop. Yeah, just, it was tough, right? And you just literally got flogged with it an inch of your life. You picked yourself back up for that. I'm earning the same money as my brother who's banging a few goals in that weekend and having a bit of a giggle. It's one of those things, it's like, you know.

Carl (19:20)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (19:22)
Could I have negotiated harder could I have done better could I've been a better player all these things argue out but and I Don't think I was hard done by there were plenty others around me or thought we're earning very good money for what they should have been And there were lads out there who weren't earning anywhere near enough But I was just people and they say to you know, you're tired from professional rugby Why did you retire I said because I got to a point where I was being paid 30 grand a year and dealing with

some horrible, horrible big people in the championship. Because it's no, like you say, the golf almost between the two is what it is, but it's more from like a squad thing. Because if you look at some of the boys playing in the English championship, you know, when I used to play against, I mean, Donny was my last club. When I used to play against Donny and he ran against people like Rory Pittman, Matt Challener, you know, Latou McCaffey, who had just...

I mean lovely fellas but horrible human beings on a rugby field like big blokes and you had a move and it just hurt and it was like I can get this sat in an office ringing for a living and it hurts less. You know so you get to that point you kind of go and it's not the same thing but people here pro sport and imagine you're all on six -figure contracts I was like I never hit a six -figure contract like and 20 years in a game.

Carl (20:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

Charlie Beech (20:48)
playing around amongst some of the biggest names in the sport and I never got that far up and I can say I played the best part of eighty games in the Premiership so I wasn't an also -run, I wasn't a top -name but I wasn't an also -run. So yeah, it's an interesting... I could have stood to have been paid more, but more for me ego I think. I think there were lads out there getting absolutely stoned and when you look at the championship monies and the lower clubs and what they've paid people it's awful.

awful and so yes it's need to address him at top to bottom in my mind

Carl (21:20)
Yeah.

So obviously you did mention on there, so you have now, you founded Front Row Support, is that correct?

Charlie Beech (21:31)
Yes. Yeah.

Carl (21:33)
Can you give everyone a clue in of what that does and how you're able to support? Is it current pros or pros on their exit plan and then pros that have retired recently, etc.

Charlie Beech (21:47)
So long term the idea is it's sort of a holistic approach to all of it because to me, the lads like me who've left are leaving, are struggling to leave or who are carrying on playing long after they should because they're worried monies aren't what they're going to be when they need them. Monies aren't going to be what they need when they leave and all that sort of thing. The only way you address that is by getting to the lads.

at the beginning of their careers and get them interested in things. Now there's always been stuff on offer but it's usually been in like we'll get this qualification through. So you get these open uni offers or a couple of unis will be quite flexible. But you know, best one in the world, it's doable. I'm not saying it's not, I'm just saying it's not really what a lot of us, it's not how a lot of us are wired. And it's not that kind of practical hands -on approach that a lot of us like to take. So.

Yeah, long term it's looking at all of it. What Front Row Support does principally is the missions, athlete transition, supporting that move into the next life almost. But the way we do it is like an events and networking business. So the whole idea being if I build a big enough business network and everything we do sports themed, everything's attached to sports clubs, so it's not limited to rugby or rugby union. I've got plenty of rugby league.

Carl (22:59)
Okay.

Charlie Beech (23:09)
and you know we've had weightlifters and all sorts of in and through and we attach ourselves to local clubs so we work with grassroots as well as pro clubs and whole things like sourcing sponsorship backwards and forwards as well so we're just sort of trying to commercialize the game at lower levels to provide more opportunities for people to get involved and building a big enough business network that these sports people have somewhere to go.

So when they're looking for a job, when they're thinking about retirement, when they're doing this, you know, it's all very well having a beautifully written CV or that qualification. But if you've been coming down to this sort of networking day once a month and meeting Adrian Hogarth who sources cars for a living and you want to be a car salesperson, it's like Adrian already knows you, Adrian already likes you, he's already done a bit of work with you, he's already put some of your mates in his direction. He's already offering you a job before you've even left. You've got some work experience like...

Carl (23:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (24:03)
So we can provide that. The thing with pro sport is a very bespoke environment. Like everything's built around you being the best player you can be. But all the solutions afterwards seem to be very much, we've got a solution, we're gonna crowbar you in to fit that solution. We're trying to go at it from the other direction. So it's sitting down with lads and going, right, what do you wanna do? Do you wanna run a business?

then here's some business advisors, here's this sort of small business we've got on the side that you can run and practice and you can do bits with. If you want a job, we can introduce you some recruiters, you can introduce you some people here, like we can sort of guide, tailor the solution to the individual. So obviously the more businesses I know, the more businesses in the network, the more businesses attending the events, the more opportunities we've got to help lads out and lads and staffs out and sort of help them on their way.

Carl (24:51)
Yep.

Charlie Beech (24:54)
So yeah, we've...

Carl (24:54)
Brilliant. As you said, not everyone learns in the same way. So the Open University might work for some, because I think a lot of them sort of make use of that throughout their career, because is it available to most pros throughout to make sure that they're ready for the end of their career?

Charlie Beech (25:15)
OpenU is open so people can get on it. There's some fantastic people around it. There's a few organisations trying to help. There's a woman, Carol Davies, who's the mother of Charlie Davies, the old wasps and Wales scrum half She's been trying to find people, degrees in various things for years and supports them through it and helps them with the learnings. Obviously university style learning is very different.

sort of school style stuff but to me like I say I've been in many a coaches office I think many many a sports person identifies with being in a coaches office and being told we're not picking you we're picking them because they're more experienced than you and it's like it's exactly the same thing when you go for a job interview you can be you can have the degree you can have the qualifications and like right but you know what what work in this area have you done you're like well I've been a rugby player for 15 years and they're like

Yeah, we need someone that's done this for at least three years. So it's like, well, all right, but if I can get you doing it, yeah, I've been doing it alongside my rugby career for five years. So it's like, right, this kid's got what we need. You can pick him up. So that's my angle on it. That's what hands -on experience, because that's what's, you know, what lights hire is up. When people are looking to give jobs, if you can show a couple of years of relevant work experience, you're much more employable in my mind.

Carl (26:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

nice.

Charlie Beech (26:40)
than any level of degree or qualification.

Carl (26:44)
yeah, it's like when you...

when kids are having to turn up for their first job interview now, they want 21 years worth of experience when they're 19 or something like that. It's just crazy out there in a minute. But no, it's...

Charlie Beech (26:51)
Yeah, you see it. Yeah, we need 10 years of relevant work experience with AI. And you're like, AI has only been around for two years, Lowy.

Carl (27:02)
I've never been a pro and stuff. Is there much of a pension? Is there much of a set up for financial support after the games ended? Like, say if you're in the forces, you get a pension that's linked, index linked back to what the salary would have increased, et cetera. Is that in place in rugby or...

Once you retire, that's it, it's game over. You're self -employed. Sorry, mate, but you've got to look after yourself.

Charlie Beech (27:27)
Yeah, that one. When auto enrolment came in, we had to have pensions, so if you're a professional, they provide you a pension. So you did have something, but it wasn't like you say, like an armed forces one that was specifically for people. It was literally just a standard pension. They just put you on a pension scheme and ran it all legally as they needed to, but it was no special consideration.

Carl (27:32)
Wow.

Charlie Beech (27:55)
There are plenty of financial advisors who start circling around sports clubs because they know that there's people there that are going to need the help. I think when they realize just how much the average rugby player is on, they tend to move on to football. But there's plenty sort of seeing it as a way to... Well, it's a thing, isn't it? When you're earning how many percent, if it's not a rather large number that you're earning a percentage of, it's not paying your bills. So, a good... I mean...

Carl (28:12)
They just disappear, yeah.

Charlie Beech (28:24)
taken away from financial services, but if you look at an average agent, you know, when you've got like a playing agent, earns, you know, three to 5 % is what it was when I was going through. If you look at a footballer who's on hundred grand a week, three to 5 % is looking all right, so you as a football agent could have one or two players. Yeah, so you have one player, maybe one in the back up just in case.

Carl (28:41)
shit.

It's not too bad, is it?

Charlie Beech (28:50)
that's paying you a lovely wage and you can really spend your lifetime looking after those two lads. I'm down in London earning 40 grand a year, my 3 to 5 % is not earning, so I'm one of 40 lads that one agent's looking after to make up the difference, so you don't get the same level of service. So it's going to be the same with financial advisors, same with all sorts. So the money speaks round, but I'm...

Carl (28:55)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (29:17)
I'm doing a bit of work at the minute with the Armed Forces Covenant. It's been something that someone sort of highlighted to me. I think it's an amazing thing and I think it's absolutely right. And while at no point will I ever sit here and say that the sporting field is sort of key to the country or as dangerous as the military is, because it absolutely isn't and I've not got ideas about the station, at the same time...

Carl (29:25)
NOS

Charlie Beech (29:43)
We are doing something that's very dangerous. We are doing something that's short lived and we do it for the entertainment of others. We do it for other people's enjoyment. So you kind of go at the end of that, there should be some sort of aftercare system. There should be some kind of financial, even if it's just support, you know, I don't expect the government to jump into it because we're not doing something for the country, but like the governing body itself, the RFU should be looking into it. Nothing.

Carl (29:59)
Yeah.

Nah.

A lot of armed forces personnel and veterans are being, that's it, they might get a pension, but nobody's dealing with the rest of the fallout from the stuff they have to do and see. So, there is no aftercare for a lot of professions that are utilized in that. My mum's a...

My mum's a nurse, she retired about a year or two ago now. She was in the Navy beforehand, so obviously she's probably seen a fair bit, but she's having to deal with her own stuff as well. And there is a certain level of aftercare, but it's only up to a certain amount. And then once that you've used that allocated amount, it's, yeah, you're going to have to pay for yourself. Like, hold on a minute. You've done this amount of return of service, then you think...

Charlie Beech (30:38)
Yeah.

Carl (31:03)
I get it, everywhere's got funding issues. It's just how, how are we, how, how has the whole bubble got to come together? Cause it's not just like it's one profession that's, that's sort of having that problem. Do you think potentially getting everyone around the table, like as you said, if you got, if you managed to get the armed forces and sporting professions and the nurses and the police and.

all of those professions that sort of come to a natural end and there's a bit of a scrap heap without a lack of a better word potentially. Do you think if they all were able to get together they could potentially pull resources?

Charlie Beech (31:38)
We're off.

I think it'd be a lovely thing. I think it's something I'd be very keen to get involved with. I mean, I've coached the Yorkshire Ambulance Service, so I know what they go through. As I said, I'm doing a bit with the military, some retired military personnel, not working with them direct. They're not part of Front Row, but I'm working with them alongside them. And as, yeah, it's, as you say, it's a...

Carl (31:49)
Hmm.

Charlie Beech (32:09)
the career, the way you do what you do, and then suddenly, because the pensions lined up to look after the people in the sort of normal working fields, right? So you finish work, you retire, and your pension kicks in, so you're looked after. It's those of us that have to retire in the mid -30s that go, you know, and there's limited sympathy for the sports people, I think, because people say, you know, you weren't young when you were younger, or you had that opportunity, and you got to do the thing of your dreams, and now you're moaning about it, and you kind of go in.

I get that perspective, I'm not saying it's entirely wrong, like you know the risks going in, but I just think...

If well I say, you know the risk going in I think if you knew exactly how long your career could be and you could plan around It's one thing if you had everything Set up around it knew there was care afterwards you could I think We all went in with a degree of like we're gonna earn loads of money and then we'll be fine at the end because we'll have done something with it and then you never actually earn that loads of money and Then yeah, the whole thing falls apart and not say something you're stuck. You know, I'm 36 and

well overweight still play the game and I love playing don't get me wrong but as you know I should have been moved out the pasture a long time ago with you lads coming up on the way through I shouldn't have felt sort of trapped to kind of carry on playing like my current club look after me very well I've no complaints whatsoever like the good people I love what I do but you know there should be three four young lads steaming up through ready to take my place and there should be you know an RF new central kind of

Carl (33:36)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (33:39)
you've played this number of years looking after us and helping to chuck our balances up is something to make sure you're alright until such time that your pension gets you know or like you said at least leave you on the medical insurance

Carl (33:53)
Yeah, there's got to be something in there. Is it fair in saying you've probably got 10 years as a pro realistically in the current climate? It's potentially 10, maybe 12 years.

Charlie Beech (34:09)
10 -15, yeah, 10 -15, yeah, depends, when that is how that runs around depends on position. And you have to be very lucky that you don't get injured out or, you know, just bad luck in between the two. But yeah, like, yeah, I mean, if you look at wingers, wingers will come through early, 17, 18, but they'll be retiring early 30s because their pace is gone.

props last a lot longer because we start a lot later you know we come through at 18 but we're then held back for a couple of years while we get up to strength and get ready you know but I'm not far away from pushing 40 and then it's like right why am I still doing this and so we'll last a bit longer but we've not started as soon so yeah you look into 10 -15 depending on position but yeah all of us have gone by 40 you know like there's no there's

Carl (34:50)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (35:04)
you can find the odd exception but not many.

Carl (35:07)
But obviously you've probably got what, maybe eight to 10 years at the top, say in the Prem. And then you're having to sort of filter your way down through the leagues potentially at a hell of a lot less of a rate than what you were on, having to adapt that alongside another job.

Charlie Beech (35:12)
Hmm.

Carl (35:26)
It's obviously with football, there's still players that are probably 34, 35. So they're able to, as you say, go and make that big dollar, usually when they're younger, as long as they're picked up at the right time. I'm a Pompey fan, so they've just got promoted to the championship. League One, they were paying players maybe five, six grand a week, sort of the top end of the players in the team. I think the bottom end were getting one or two, two grand a week. So still the six figures. Those players...

Charlie Beech (35:38)
Yeah.

Carl (35:56)
that aren't there in rugby. There's not many players, as you said, that if you were on six grand when you sort of come in as an academy player or whatever, if that was, as you said, from a prop, if you're on six grand from when you're 18 to 21, before they probably top you out into the first team, because I think you've sort of got the dad strength, you're ready to play in the big boy leagues, you then maybe jump to, what, 40 grand, depending on where you are, 30, 40 grand for...

eight to 10 years at the premiership. That's 400 grand roughly that you've made. Four or five hundred grand in total and then you're probably going to have to drop to what maybe...

low 20s roughly to probably carry on around in the championship, maybe sort of 30 depends if you get a decent deal.

Charlie Beech (36:47)
Yeah, not even that anymore in the champs. I don't know what Ealing are paying, but other than that, most of the clubs that were playing full -time at that point, most of them were, if you were only 20, you were doing all right. And it's got worse, because obviously, like I say, funding's been cut, COVID's happened between the two. It's not full -time anymore, outside the Premiership. So other than...

Carl (36:50)
Really.

Charlie Beech (37:13)
other than Ealing. I know Donny officially are but I know what's going on around different bits of that and I know some of the lads and how big the squad is and all that sort of thing. It's not a proper full time wage. To me if you can't live on it it's not a full time wage. So yeah, so like you say you play Premiership as long as you bloody can. If you've got an international cap you'll be earning six figures because that's kind of the rule.

Carl (37:31)
Nah.

Charlie Beech (37:41)
unofficial rule but yeah other than that you're like you're having as long as you can because once you go on you're gone and it's like you say you literally you're halving your wages easy just to drop down a league so the only way that's in any way sustainable is if you go part time.

Carl (37:57)
And the intensity's probably gone up a level as well though. So you've dropped down a level and there's probably some even more evil, some evil bastards down there that'll, do not give a fucking willing to put it on you.

Charlie Beech (38:01)
Lots of big heavy bullies down in the town.

Yes.

You've got all the young lads who are trying to prove a point so they can get into the Premiership. You've got all the lads in the middle who feel like they should have been in the Premiership but never quite got the chance. They've got a bit of a chip on the shoulder. You've got all the old boys who've been in the Premiership. And like you say, just don't give a fuck now. Just out there, don't have a good time and do what they need to do. So it's a horrible league. I mean, I love it, the Championship. It's a horrible league. I mean, you play hard. It's not a...

Let's drop a level and be a big fish in a small pond. It's let's drop a level and get my head kicked in. Like it's, it's tough. Absolutely. I was there for a number of years and I love it, but it's tough. Like you learn a few bits. But yeah, moment you're there, the only way it's really truly sustainable is if you go semi -pro and you get a job doing something else and then that just tops you up on the weekends. And it's like, as you say, football, you can go down to what fourth league and you still earn more than the money. And it's like, but.

Carl (38:44)
There's no sunshine in Roses League. They're there to put it on you.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (39:09)
rugby's not got that luxury

Carl (39:11)
Well, it has in France. That's the thing. France have got four pro leagues. You've got international players still running around in the fourth division of pro rugby in France. And in the home of rugby, we can't even sustain a premiership. It's obviously Wales, the Welsh regions are struggling. Ireland have got it pretty much pinned, to be fair. I think they've done really well with how they've sort of secured that provinces.

Charlie Beech (39:26)
Some of this. Yes.

Yeah.

Carl (39:39)
Scotland obviously they've got the two teams. They did have a third team up there that obviously fell by the wayside. So I think that's probably helped that they're only down to two. So they're able to absorb the resource. I just don't understand why the URC has had to now add in the South African teams. Okay, it's exciting to see some of it, but there was rumours they're on about chucking Japan in and stuff like that. And you think, hold on a minute.

these clubs can barely pay their lads properly, let alone travel a whole team across to Japan for a away day and stuff. And then all the fans on top of it, it's just bonkers. Like, how's that going to improve the reach of the game and improve players getting paid what they should be earning?

Charlie Beech (40:20)
The whole thing for me stems from a complete sort of disjoint between the local game, the grassroots game and the Premiership at the top end. I think the RFU have been entirely focused on the top end. I mean, you look at COVID, during COVID, again, I'm a vague grasp of the numbers. So I've...

I'll paint with broad strokes, right? It was something like one club development officer to two or three clubs pre -COVID. So there are hundreds of them up and down the country. They're your liaison with the RFU. So if you need from central, that's that's who you went to, right? During COVID, all the people that worked in Twickenham HQ got furloughed, all the people that were CDOs got sacked off. So you lost all level of communications with your body.

And then when they come back, some of the CDOs are looking after maybe six, seven, eight clubs. Whereas before they were looking after two or three. And it's kind of going, no, you don't want to hear what's being said there. You don't want any clever communication. You don't want to offer that level of support. Like, it's just, yeah, it's so top heavy centrally minded. There's no one looking at the roots of it. And like you say, France has got four leagues. You go to France on a rugby match day.

Everyone in that town is wearing the colors. Everyone's rolling in stages big enough to look after them And they will have a great time and that's whether you're talking top end Pro D2 whatever level you're looking at We don't have that here. We've got a sway on it here fair enough But there are more than enough rugby fans of both coats, you know, not just rugby and rugby leagues are the same sort of place There's more than enough fans that if you sort of looked at the commercial model properly

Carl (41:55)
Yep.

Charlie Beech (42:12)
got the RFU out of the way and just went, look, you just look after the partnership, you do your thing and we'll just set this up over here and run our own one and we'll actually make it financially viable. We'll get to a point where people invest in a club like they do in America because the club's a commercial entity that makes money as opposed to I'm just a massive rugby fan and I'm happy to, you know, hide two grand of a tax bill into this rather than that. You know, that's what needs to happen in my mind.

Carl (42:40)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (42:41)
Yeah.

Carl (42:42)
I had Russell Earnshaw on the other day as well. He was part of the RFU piece as well, got sacked and he's quite vocal around that and said there's a lot of people within their roles in the RFU that are more worried about losing them and then there's other committees that have got to sign off stuff before it even gets near any sense. So the whole model's not agile enough to protect or improve the game.

Charlie Beech (42:51)
Yep.

Carl (43:10)
And until, as you say, that whole reshake is probably required, it's just going to keep going backwards. And the statement I was referenced to earlier, I think it's quite apparent that they don't want to change it because they're either protecting their own investment or they're protecting the investors that are the ones that they think are the ones that are going to bring the game forward. Because I was listening to the Good Bad Rugby pod the other day and they said,

about the PIF, which is obviously the Saudi Public Investment Fund. They're apparently in talks of funding four premiership clubs currently, but that I think is probably at a detriment that if they had promotional relegation at risk, because funny enough, one of them is Newcastle, one of the others is Gloucester. So two of the teams right at the bottom are at risk of going.

but are also under conversation with PIF at the minute. So, there are clearly other conversations happening. It's a bad state of affairs that rugby's having to have those conversations. And also on that good -bad rugby the other day, that I caught up with yesterday actually before, they said there's eight,

hundred million fans rugby fans across the globe so we've got double the amount of NFL fans so apparently they reckon there's only 400 million NFL fans across the globe we've got 800 I think we only return 1 .6 billion on that investment or something like that of that turnover I think rough figure was NFL return up 162 billion

Charlie Beech (44:42)
Yes.

Carl (44:56)
of 400 million fans. You look at those numbers, it's quite clear there's something fundamental. We can't market what we've got in front of us. We've got a great product that everyone loves within that bubble, but we don't sell it to anyone. Literally, the rugby values and that model doesn't seem to want to expand out to the real world.

Charlie Beech (44:57)
Yeah. Yeah.

It's madness. Obviously those figures will be mildly because when you look at the NFL, obviously it sits under one house, one roof. They make the rules and they make it work. And the Americans are brilliant at commercializing and they're like, this is what we're doing. You look at global rugby, you've got every bloody union under the sun and they're all as sort of self -interested and in some ways parochial as each other. It's all about looking after themselves and all that. So there is a level of like, you're going to lose a bit because there's no unifying.

But yes, the games an amazing game. Everyone like the spread is massive. You know, loads of countries invested in it, loads of people enjoying it. And yet, yeah, can't can't pull a straight plan out between them. And as I say, yeah, on all levels, I mean, I look at the whole concussion conversation and you look at the RFU's reaction to that.

because I was part of, I was playing for Coventry a few years back and they brought the tackle, like, you know, we're going to bring down the tackle height to here. Mid -season, no warning, well, say a couple of weeks warning. And I said, you're going to get more lads knocked out from tackling low when they're not used to tackling low than you are. No, we won't. The data says otherwise. I'm like, I'm telling you now, a week later I'm knocked out when I go low on a tackle I'm not used to making in training.

Carl (46:28)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (46:42)
because you play at an instinctive level, your reaction time's not there, you literally work on muscle memory, suddenly you have to stop and think. Same reason golfers choose to really start thinking about life rather than just doing it. So that happened, the whole trial got called off after two weeks of this cup competition because it was so dangerous, so many people get knocked out, right? Fast forward a couple of years, the data shows that...

Carl (46:45)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (47:06)
It's not even the knockouts, it's the sub -concussions that are killing people. So it's the amount of contact that you're doing that's actually causing the big problems in terms of CTE and early onset dementia. Concussions obviously aren't great for you, but actually the problem of the knocks that don't knock you out is there's so many, so many. So the real problem is the amount of contact training we're doing and then the amount of games we're playing. And if you look, obviously...

Carl (47:15)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (47:31)
The vast majority of people that are suffering with early onset dementia from all these knocks are the professional players, not the semi pros and not the amateur game. There's some, but most aren't. Because if you look at most rugby clubs up and down this country, their committee are lads in their 70s and 80s who played every day of their life from the age of 15 all the way up to 75 when they finally hung their boots up and haven't got a skit of memory loss between them. So it's like, no, the problem is the pro guess.

The RFU's response to the lawsuit coming over because they could see money was about to go missing because the NFL got picked for it. So they knew that they're probably going to be next. Their response is to cut the tackle height at every level bar professional.

Carl (48:02)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (48:13)
So you take it a solution that doesn't even work anyway, and you're only applying it to the levels where it's not a problem.

like why would you do that? Because if you...

Carl (48:19)
Yeah. And probably lost more players at grassroots.

Charlie Beech (48:25)
Yeah, because of it. Because a load of us hung our boots up because we can't be arsed with it. And yet at the top level, because the spectacle of someone getting absolutely smashed, you know, top level, playing all the big hits we all loved. I'm not going to be wrong, I grew up watching Victor Matfield run into things and you know, there's some big old horrible hits that happened and I was wrong. But you know, especially I'm up here in rugby league country, like the biff where you throw in with someone's four, I'm like...

Carl (48:45)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (48:52)
part of the game, right? I'm not saying it should be, I'm just saying that's kind of what we grew up with. You take that spectacle away, make everyone tack around the knee, viewer numbers drop. When you're looking for outside investment, you need an attractive game. So they've left the top end exposed. And like you say, let's add more games into the league by chucking Japan and South Africa into cup competitions. So actually we're going to make it so you're playing for longer every year, so you're doing more content than you were before.

Carl (49:07)
Yeah, I'll just...

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (49:21)
And you're not being like, you know, there's no thought as to their care and, and it's just, yeah, for the RFU is purely a money making exercise and they're failing at it. and the disconnect with the, with proper rugby is what's killing the commercial side of it because the engagement's dropping. They should be out there at every club promoting the values of rugby union, what it brings to people.

Carl (49:44)
Hmm.

Charlie Beech (49:46)
You know, I can say my life's like a poster for it. I was a state school boy, got picked up, made good, had this life. You know, the respect it teaches you for authority, you know, the teamwork, the camaraderie, all the amazing things that any rugby player will put their hand up to and say, yeah, that's why our fans all sit together without cages, without throwing things at each other, all that noise. None of it's being promoted. So now I'm dealing with people who, you know, people I know who've got kids, want to start playing rugby, they're going.

that's really dangerous game you know there's lots of lots of you getting knocked out a lot of seeing this early onset dementia stuff it's really dangerous and i'm like these rugby clubs have existed for hundreds of years and this has only become a problem since we went professional in 95 so the problem's pro rugby so one day if he's looking at going pro maybe have a think about it then until then it'd be all you know and he's going to get a lot more good out of the game than he's than he's losing so you know

Carl (50:31)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (50:43)
It just, yeah.

Carl (50:43)
Yeah.

It's not, as you said, that pitch, that... Do you think the rugby brand is painted as... Unless you're part of rugby, you don't understand it because...

I don't think as a group as well, as a rugby group of fans, we don't help push it outside the box enough. I think because a lot of us, because we're inside the bubble, we think it's massive. We try to let people in, but they're also probably put off by the time they come down a clubhouse and see the state of people in a clubhouse. Do you know what I mean? It's like we've got our traditions, we've got our own little bubble.

Charlie Beech (51:12)
Yeah.

Carl (51:27)
We let people peek through the peephole a couple of times and do you think did we potentially put our best foot forward? Yes and no, depends on how perverse some people are probably.

Charlie Beech (51:38)
Now I know exactly what you mean and it's because like that you know our fans can sit together and I said it and I believe it and it's like it is a mild job but you think all the football fans are a arrogant bunch and fair like there is a level of like you know one -upmanship almost amongst that side of things but you know

Rugby Union is quite an esoteric game to get into.

because I've coached, I've put together two women's teams, I might be starting a third soon. And when you're working with people who've never played rugby union before, you realize just how many weird little intricacies there are in the game. And you realize just how much people have to learn that if they've not grown up around it, it is quite tough to get your head around. I think the last World Cup did us wonders, or should have done us wonders.

because some of those games, whether you knew what the hell was going on or not, was so entertaining to watch. And it was like a different style every weekend, you know, when you look at the semi -finals, like two brilliant games of rugby, you know, like there's just been so many sort of different bits along the way, so many bits with it, it was just a fantastic advert for what the game of rugby union could be, but it is tough to get into. And then as you say, you go down to rugby club, wearing your football shirt, you probably get sneered at.

and then you see people playing stupid drinking games, you think, yeah, not for me, that's it. And you disappear, so I get it. What's really interesting, I think, is it's a level of apathy, a level of complacency, because we've not had to grow the game in a while. Like, we've had all these clubs for hundreds of years. We've had the top end, the top end, where they are. We've not had to really push, which is what's interesting when you then look at the girls' game, because they're having a groan, because they're, you know, not every club has got a women's section.

you know, so it's something that's started to come around. So they're actively having to recruit new players, new support, new managers, new fans, everything. They're really having to look at actually growing the game. So overall participation in rugby has gone down massively in the last few years post -COVID, but the level of sort of female participation has gone through the roof. And you go in, because they're trying, because they wanna.

because they don't have the stupid old school mentality of we're not helping them down the road, we've been fighting them for centuries. It's like, who cares? We're all in rubbing together. Let's remember what an amazing game it is and what it brings us and thank lots more people. So yeah, I think we've got lazy with it. I think we need to realise it needs us to be helping it.

Carl (54:02)
That's it.

Jump in.

Jumping back to you at the complacency piece there, do you think the RFU are still riding on the 2003 World Cup win and thinking that's still got enough weight and gravitas behind it? Because we had a massive boom after 2003. I think they're potentially hoping 2019 would have obviously had that, the return as well and obviously the missing out on the semis against South Africa.

Do you think there's certain people probably still sat in the RFU thinking they've got credit in the bank from the 2003 World Cup win?

Charlie Beech (54:45)
I think there's still people sat in the FA still thinking they've got credit in the bank for a 1966 World Cup win.

Carl (54:50)
Exactly. It's just that it's an English way, isn't it? Like, let's just, there's probably people still thinking about 1066, probably still Battle of Hastings or something like that. Rishi Shunak's probably going to pull that one out of the bag, isn't he?

Charlie Beech (54:53)
Yeah, we've won it once, we're crazy. Yeah.

Yeah, that will show those facts. Yeah, no, I think there is a level of that and as you say when you say 2019.

when you look, I mean it seeps all the way through in my mind because if you look at that, just the lead into the final, so England, South Africa in the final right, and you watch the videos sort of that coming into the game, and obviously we turned up late, I think there'd been some weird traffic, we'd missed something or something, it had gone slightly wrong anyway, but the...

We absolutely tore the Kiwis to shreds in the semi -finals. One of the best games I've probably ever seen in my entire life was that semi -finals against New Zealand. We just... The only one thing I've ever thought of, glorious, was like, this team could go on and win anything they want. Like, they've got everything they need. This is amazing. And he watched it and it was like, right lads, you know, think of our history. The game was born here. We should be winning this. Isn't this great? Bring the cup home. Love.

Carl (55:46)
it was, yeah, unreal, absolutely unreal.

Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie Beech (56:07)
And then it cuts to South Africa and they're showing these, you know, the lads running out of the townships, they're showing like just the joy on people's faces that they've got. You know, Kolosi sat there as the captain, they've got, you know, the most diverse team that ever has, the most team like all that, what it meant to that nation to win that World Cup was...

everything like it was you know ride or die time when it was like they were gonna win that world cup and they were gonna come over in a box like they just didn't care it was like we are winning this and that passion that like absolute let's get through when you've got a union that's all sat there very much like yes we won this before we're almost entitled to win this one now we've done this but it's like it's just bullshit and i just think it's yeah the whole

Carl (56:54)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (56:59)
the core is rotten and we need to either rip the core out and start with a new one or just you know well that's it I don't see any way you can do it in my mind I think the RFU has got to have a serious word with itself or we've got to leave it behind.

Carl (57:15)
Yeah, I don't think World Rugby probably helps. Obviously, Bill Beaumont's in charge of both, basically, so I think he's... You've got to have World Rugby completely independent. You can't have somebody at the top of both. I just... I don't know. There's so many...

Charlie Beech (57:30)
Yeah.

just kidding yourself that's it for today.

Just... No way.

Carl (57:42)
Yeah, there's so many bits that we could probably pull out from NFL as well, as you said. American football had so much. Do you think a draft system and a centralized contract would work within rugby to help grow that? And then would that then be able to support a valid championship model? Because more players would be available on a centralized contract. They could go and... Not have them as sort of development squads, but...

there'd be X amount of development players allowed to go to sort of, there's a clear path to make these a progression from sort of, Nat 1 and then you got Nat 1 Championship and the Prem. You had three leagues and then there was a clear divisional path of this draft was able, you were able to draft and if you finished bottom or you obviously cut or get relegated, the new teams that come up would be able to get first pick and...

Do you think that would add a certain level of excitement to rugby and a bit more of a marketable piece?

Charlie Beech (58:46)
It could. I do think it could. The problem you've got, and again to me it goes down to groundswell. And I think it's again it's a perspective thing I don't think everyone quite understands right. When you're watching these American football games, American football films and you hear, which is the college that's got, they run out to the Sandman by Metallica. Is it no?

Notre Dame Notre Dame is it then? Yeah. They'll run out and they slap that thing and you look at the whole crowd and the whole crowd's going absolutely apeshit. There's like more than 100 ,000 people in there. They're all doing it. They're banging their aphids. How the bloody thing stands I don't know. There's so many people jumping up and down. That's a well constructed thing right? These are college kids.

Carl (59:13)
Notch time? Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Beech (59:36)
16 year olds.

We don't get that level of support at Twickenham

Right? And it's that. So when you've got that number of kids coming through the educational system, who all know that the NFL is a, you know, if they play college ball and if they get into this thing, they get that point average at school, they can get a scholarship, they go to that college, they'll get into that team. That puts it, that means that they'll be in the draft and then they'll get into the NFL and that's the, like you said, that pipeline's so clear. In this country,

Carl (1:00:02)
Yes.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:00:10)
State schools don't really play rugby. I know there are plenty that do, but it's not like every team does it. Every college in America has American football. I'd put it to you, whereas I don't think every rugby. Most public schools do.

Carl (1:00:27)
Well, most of the teachers have probably never played rugby as well in state schools. It's just part of the curriculum. So they're just been told there's a ball, read this bit of paper, make sure they don't clash heads, don't kick the football unless you're playing 10. And that's about it. They don't understand the game. There's no passion or development. As you said, every NFL film that you watch, they've got a coach that's made this player become this because he's made it like, there's that.

Charlie Beech (1:00:32)
But yes.

Carl (1:00:57)
sort of Hollywood film piece around it. You don't get any of that with rugby. When was the last rugby film that come out that wasn't made by rugby fans about sort of a nation? Like obviously you've got Rising Sun, which is being done about South Africa, et cetera, et cetera. Swing Low was obviously the one back in the day, but there's not one that can be marketed to the masses. There's no crossover from...

our little bubble to the rest of the world.

Charlie Beech (1:01:30)
No, but it should be because there are some amazing players, there's some amazing stories, there's... Even like I said, I'm in rugby league country now, right? And obviously like Rob Burrow died at the weekend. It's like the story of Rob Burrow and what he's been through, where he's been a bit, so he's done it all. Huge. And everything that's gone with Kev Sinfield around the outsides, obviously Kev's then stepped across into England. So there's so much...

one of the questions you sent over, one of the best coaches you've ever worked with, Sean Edwards, hands down, one of the best coaches I've ever worked with. And it's like rugby unions learnt so much from rugby league and could learn more. I've had a lot of very good rugby league coaches in my rugby union career. I think there's so much rugby has to offer. And when you watch...

Carl (1:02:06)
Hmm. Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:02:19)
I was working at what was York City Knights at the time when they had the men's and women's team and you'd have people coming into the stadium early for the men's game and the women's game would be on. Women playing rugby league, you know, because it's still quite old school in some people's mindsets. Every time someone gets hit, every time there's a big hit, you convert 20 people. Because to me, that's what, that's what pre -football misses for me. Like when I'm...

when I watch somebody older football games, when you watch local league football, people clattering each other, right? It's great. I love playing football and I love watching people play football properly. The women's game is much more physical than the men's game. When you look at how the line S is played, beat the crap out of football. Great to watch. I don't need any sports to be contact, I just need contact sports to be contact, right? So you can't tell me there's not people in this country that would turn up...

Carl (1:02:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:03:16)
watch rugby if it was more welcoming more available people knew where it was you know one of the one of the weirdest things up here and again like a league special this so head in Lee stadiums about 16 000 people again and when Leeds were last in the premiership you got about 8 000 fans with time right and they'd say another complacency piece right well there's not as many up union fans it Leeds okay but when the two local unis

Carl (1:03:21)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:03:45)
Leeds Beckett and Union Leeds play their varsity game in the same stadium and you literally have a sellout.

there's clearly more than enough because that's just the students that's not and don't get me wrong not all of them massive rugby fans what I'm saying is if you put something on that appeals you can find it and those 8 ,000 people only about a thousand men would have been students there's clearly more than enough rugby union groundswell in Leeds to get the Headley Stadium full the country's the same like I was saying I was at a bloody Tottenham Hotspur Stadium looking at 30 ,000 Gloucester fans in London

Carl (1:03:56)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:04:21)
hearing them on the tube is one of the best things I've ever been involved in. Because that accent on a lost traveler in London is glorious. You know, follow him, he looks like a rugby boy. You know, like that, it's just amazing, right? So, you know, it's that like, we've got people, the people want to come, the people like the game, the more people that are seeing it, it's a great game to watch, we know and love it, right? It needs to open itself up more. When the governing body...

Carl (1:04:24)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'll bet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:04:51)
the sport it's so old -school so complacent so unwelcoming to people they literally make it hard to put a team together they make it hard to support they make it hard to watch they just they just make it hard it's not no wonder yeah so you see that that to me is the thing it's not that there's a lack of interest it's just that there's a lack of opportunity and given given what would be

Carl (1:04:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:05:20)
given to work with and as I say that's where my plans to sort of start helping out with grassroots teams and helping them find the right funding, helping them turn their system round. So that then becomes profitable. Everyone then learns, we all then grow and suddenly we can throw the RFU off and be like well you take your league, you do what you need to and you go the way and then you've got the players and the interest and the support so when you then put a draft on people want to watch it.

Carl (1:05:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:05:48)
I mean I watched a film the other day, is it DraftBet?

Carl (1:05:50)
Do you think that's where we start?

Charlie Beech (1:05:51)
Yeah, I mean, it was about films about the draft. It was a great film as well. Kevin Gosner. Brilliant. It's like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Carl (1:06:00)
people can get involved in that as well. You can sit there, you can watch the draft, you can be interactive with it, everything can't you?

Charlie Beech (1:06:08)
they we we we as a the RFU at any sense right get rid of the old wood that don't want to don't want to do it and then fly out to America sit with the NFL and go how do we do this because if you look at like the figures you stated down this isn't because I'm I'm I made no bones about it I play American football now I've done for a couple of years right I do it because it's a great game to play it's fun I get to wear body armor where I play

rugby with a gum shield and a set of boots. I don't wear tape, I don't have shoulder pads. I literally play as I come and then I play something where I'm basically super loud and it's glorious. I love it. I do not think that the NFL is the greatest thing ever. I don't see it going, it's what everyone should basically spawn. I'm not a fanatic is the point I'm trying to make. But if you're trying to work out how to commercialize a sport, then.

They've got every aspect of that league nailed. They know where the people are coming from. They know how to drive the support. Like you said, all the interactions, all the different levels. They are constantly looking, how do I make more money from this? Because it's a business. And to say that the owners of American football franchises make so much money out of their investments, whereas here, it is literally the sinkhole for your profits.

It's like that's got to change. If we want the game to grow, that's got to change. It's got to be an attractive thing to evolve.

Carl (1:07:34)
Well, that's...

Every Premier League team is losing money each year and that's supposed to be the pinnacle of our sport in this country. It says it all. Do you think that's where we potentially start? Do you think, leave the RFU, leave the upper leagues? Do you start with, do you try and target that school system, do similar to a college model, invest in that and create a growth path that has a progression path?

Charlie Beech (1:07:47)
the next.

Carl (1:08:05)
So trying to invest into something that's already sinking, do you start investing into that grassroots level and have a clear path and create a separate system? Do you think that's potentially where we've got to go and completely leave what's there? Potentially maybe even use the championship as the pinnacle, as part of that investment piece, but actually take it back to as far back as...

the schools and the colleges and stuff, make that hype and that generation of people that want to be part of the game and that spectacle that's available.

Charlie Beech (1:08:39)
I think it's going to be tough because obviously...

The visibility for the players in there unless you play for England the England are an RFU team so if you kind of gonna try and do it without the RFU you're losing a lot of your top ambassadors straight off the outset and There's also a lot of history in those clubs and the someone who's lived his life around all those It's a very hard thing to turn around go off. I call that will go build their own The problem in anything though whoever sat at the top of something they're benefiting. They ain't gonna change much

and the RFU at the minute are doing well enough that they're sat there and ain't going to change much. So to be able to go back to the pubs that produced Bill Beaumont and ask them to change the way they're doing something, they probably ain't going to listen because they've probably still got his name and his shirts and all the rest of it. So it's going to be a tough system to crack. For me, going to grassroot clubs, I've got a big association up here with Weatherby Rugby Club.

Carl (1:09:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:09:37)
So when I moved up here, that's where I started coaching. I rocked up as a young professional rugby player, looking to get my coaching badges and use the ones I'd already got. What can I do? I coached every team from the 14s up to the first team, back down to the Colts and then set the women's team up. I've been involved with that club a long time. I'm very proud of it. Outside of my grassroots club being Biggleswade, where I grew up playing all my rugby, just outside of Bedford, that's my heart and soul.

Carl (1:10:06)
Yep.

Charlie Beech (1:10:07)
my club but Wetherby it like my second home right. If we go to a club like that that's got it right you know they just got promoted into North East, they've just come out of the Yorkshire league, just been promoted into the North East leagues and they're starting 15 I think, they're starting 15, 13 homegrown players.

Which you think any, like, you know, any, any club of any level, anywhere, 13 or 15, they're their own, they're weatherby boys that have been through the juniors and mini sections. So that's massive, right? That's a club that's got it right. If we can get more people looking at it like that, if we can get investment around that and some of the people that support that club, some of the people, all the people involved in that, if we get that right, and that becomes a club that turns a profit. Suddenly.

Carl (1:10:30)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

Charlie Beech (1:10:56)
People in the local area are taking notice. You then go, right, let's apply the same model. Let's look at it. Let's get the juniors and the minis in. Let's get it so there's boys and girls playing. Let's get it so you've got a women's team. You know, obviously you need the land, you need the space, and some of the clubs don't have all the space they need, but let's work together on that, because there's plenty of people looking for CSR opportunities, businesses out there with land, sat there going, what can we do with this? It's got to make sense from a commercial front.

Carl (1:11:17)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:11:25)
Yeah, that's the one thing in all of it. If you can make it make sense commercially, the rest will follow. And it's like, I don't think you're going to turn the RFU around and public schools know what they're about and do what they do. And while there's some lovely people working in boats, there's also some real intransigent people in there. And I think if you start with grassroots, if you work with those boys from all the way up from there, like say, we were up to the champ, I reckon the middle could step out and just sort of run its own direction then.

Carl (1:11:27)
Yeah.

Charlie Beech (1:11:52)
and then sort of say well look that's what we're doing, that's how we've done it and then it's up to the RFM to listen or not so that's how I'd go about it. It's kind of how I am going about it. I've gone full mutiny mode.

Carl (1:11:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

No, no, brilliant. That's it. That's why we got you on, Charlie. It's been an absolute pleasure, mate. We could go on with this for hours, and I think there's probably at least a round two on this on another day, because I think there's so many more rocks that we could potentially lift and go on, mate. So obviously, once the front row support gathers a bit more pace as well, mate, it'd be great to get you back on.

Charlie Beech (1:12:23)
Nah.

Carl (1:12:35)
see what we've done and what you've been able to, who you've helped and where the next plans are, mate. So I can't thank you enough for coming on today, mate. And I'm sure everyone that's listened to the pod has really appreciated your time as well.

Charlie Beech (1:12:44)
. Thanks, .

That's all, thanks very much.

Carl (1:12:51)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. So in today's episode, we spoke with Charlie Beech the founder of Front Row Support, where he's actively trying to support players exits from their current sporting professions. We also discuss his great career across the rugby spectrum.

and the eye -opening cost that it is for players to drop down through the leagues to carry on being pro or semi -pro players. We really set the world to rights on this one, so I really enjoyed this pod today. Next week, we have our first interview with two other guests. We managed to get Will Knight and Oz on from Havant Rugby Club, where we finally opened the door to their recent successes and where the club can and wants to go in the future.

This was a great rugby chat, even though it's a shame to see a club down the road doing so well, especially from a Gosport boy's point of view. Once again, a huge thank you to you all. Thank you and goodbye.