Episode 12 - The Joe Batley Interview - Cancer Survivor to one of the Best Second Rows in the Prem

Joe Batley, a pro rugby player, shares his inspiring journey from battling cancer to returning to the game. He discusses the support he received, his approach to training, and the impact of fatherhood on his perspective. The conversation covers the challenges of returning to professional rugby after a cancer diagnosis, the impact of injuries on a player's career, the structure and sustainability of the English rugby divisions, and the future of the Premiership and Championship leagues. It also delves into the potential solutions for closing the gap between the Premiership and Championship, as well as the fate of players from teams that have gone under. The conversation covers topics such as player transitions, rugby coaching, life experiences, cancer charity involvement, personal aspirations, and playing experiences. It also delves into the challenges and opportunities in professional rugby, as well as the potential for international recognition and future career prospects.

Transcript

Carl (00:12)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep shining a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl. Thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod and keep in touch with us on our social media platforms. We have some amazing guests lined up in the coming weeks and we really don't want you to miss out on them. As mentioned in the last week's pod, I'm traveling for a few weeks, but...

To make sure we keep moving, the interviews have been pre -recorded. So some bits may have played out, but we still get to see the raw opinions beforehand. This week, we have finally got our first pro on. Joe Batley is on from the Bristol Bears. We are so excited to share this interview with you all. From Joe, starting at the Mighty Gosport

to breaking into the pro game, to then receiving a cancer diagnosis at the age of 21, to now being one of the best second row options we have in the prem. I'm not gonna hang around with this one. Let's just get on with the interview.

Carl (01:21)
Well, as I said the other we were only getting better with our guests. And now we're right up there. Now we've got Joe Batley on from Bristol Bears currently, a first pro player or current pro player on the pod. So Joe, thank you so much for your time, mate. Really appreciate you jumping on. Obviously everyone would love to hear the story. Obviously there's a...

Bats (01:42)
Yeah, so started off at Gosport, and then took the opportunity to go to Harbury College, which is a college in Gloucester.

Carl (01:44)
there's a lot of a probably a bit of a backstory that people aren't aware of with yourself and your journey. So obviously, if you're more than welcome to jump in, chuck your rugby journey on and talk about where you've been, what you've done, and we can go from there.

Bats (02:12)
That big and rugby so did that for two years and had the best two years managed to get myself a contract with Gloucester and their Academy Did three years there and then signed a professional deal with Bristol moved down to Bristol Unfortunately got cancer my first year at Bristol which was tough Yes Yeah, so I played

Carl (02:33)
Was that when Bristol were in the championship, Joe? Was that the championship season? Yeah, so that was...

Bats (02:39)
five or six games and then got diagnosed. So, yeah, I was 21 at the time and yeah, we just, I was selected to start in the game against Ealing away, which was Ealing was the next team closest to us that could potentially get promoted. So it was a big game. We won that game. So it was a great time and we had a week off afterwards. And then when we came back after the week off, one of my teammates,

Sawani Tongweer, he pointed out I had a lump in my neck. So then I went to the doctor and just asked the club doctor, just asked him what the crack was. He wasn't too sure so he then referred me to the hospital, had a biopsy and then came back that I had Hodgkin's lymphoma. So yeah, a bit of a whirlwind month and then after that, had six months of chemo, a month of radiotherapy and yeah, thankfully it's...

Carl (03:31)
Jeez.

Bats (03:39)
It went away. So now I'm in this August I will be Yeah, six years six years in remission so yes, yeah, it's been It's been a long time now. So but it's still very much in recent memory. So yeah, and then from from Bristol I then went on loan to Leicester to get some more game time and then sign for Worcester was that Worcester for?

Carl (03:57)
Jesus.

Bats (04:09)
just over two and a bit years. Then obviously they've then folded financially. So then I managed to get myself a gig back in Bristol. So went a bit full circle and now I've been at Bristol for two seasons. So yeah, that's very, very quick overview of my journey so far.

Carl (04:27)
Yeah.

That's just, it's mental, Joe, to be honest. Obviously, that was your diagnosis just before the COVID period as well. So I bet that obviously that happened just before sort of COVID turned up. Did that sort of put you on a bit of a bad?

Bats (04:43)
It was 2018 so

Carl (04:47)
COVID was what, 2019, start of 2020.

Bats (04:49)
Yeah, end of 2019, end of 2020, yeah. So yeah, I managed to get back from that and thinking, yeah, all good. then I managed to play my Premiership debut the season had cancer, which was huge and like a massive moment for me and my family. And then naturally just fell out of favour a little bit of the coaches.

Carl (05:02)
Yeah, I remember saying that, yeah.

Bats (05:10)
Didn't get much game time went to Leicester to try and get a bit more of a look in which helps which then obviously got me another contract with Worcester so yeah all up and down but the COVID period was was rocky so I got released from Bristol after being on loan to Leicester. Leicester then had nothing for me then I was end up back in Gosport living on my mum's sofa for a few weeks and then luckily my

old coach Jonathan Thomas who was then DOR at Worcester then rung me up and asked me if I fancied it. So yeah, it's a few times rugby almost got taken away from me. So I also when I was 18 had a really bad knee injury. So I ruptured my ACL, my LCL, my PCL, all the CLs in my knee. And yeah, I was out for 13 months. So.

Carl (05:54)
Yeah, yeah.

Bats (06:04)
Yeah, that was a long time, especially at 18 where you're meant to be getting your most of your rugby to try and develop as quick as you can. Yeah, that was tough. And that also then led me to miss two U20 World Cups. So I managed to play in the Six Nations and then got injured. So then I missed a whole season and a bit, which then was my two chances at U20 World Cup, which was, yeah, at that time it was the biggest thing ever.

Obviously looking back now it's probably not as massive as I may have thought, but yeah, it was an experience that I missed out on and obviously look back now at some of the memories that those lads have was similar to me and think what if, so yeah.

Carl (06:37)
Nah.

The thing is, mate, you've put in one hell of a shift in at Bristol again this time round. So I think if, probably most people on the Rugby podcast probably never watch Soccer AM, but they come up with a word called bounce -back ability. I think you are literally that word personified by the story and the journey that you've been through. Literally every time you get knocked down, you come back

Bats (07:15)
Yeah, I think obviously like staying positive and putting your best foot forward like does a lot. I've been lucky as well. Like I managed to get some good relationships with good coaches that then managed to help me out. And then when I got the chances, I managed to take them as well, which was huge. But yeah, I think I'm grateful for the opportunities that I have. And this is the job I've always wanted. And it's the dream that I've had.

Carl (07:19)
Yeah.

Bats (07:45)
when I started off at Gosport and Fareham playing Tag rugby on those back pitches. So, yeah, like very much living the dream and now seeing my son come to the games really like bouncing at every home game he gets to come on the pitch and yeah, seeing that joy in him and the joy in all the fans that I interact with as well reminds me of me as a boy going to the professional games getting...

Carl (07:59)
Yeah.

Bats (08:11)
signatures, just dreaming of those moments that would be in the pitch to actually live them now is, yeah, it keeps me grounded and keeps me hungry for more.

Carl (08:20)
That's amazing. So as you said, the plan was always to become a pro player. How did you put yourself in that shot window? What did you do that would stand you out from the rest of the crowd? Because obviously a lot of kids are probably thinking, I really want to do that. What would be the one advice that you would now put in place now for young Joe, should we say?

Bats (08:33)
I don't know.

So I obviously did load the trials growing up. London Irish was the feeder club for Hampshire. Obviously, sadly, they're not there anymore. So I'm not too sure where the Hampshire kids go now, but.

Carl (08:55)
I think most of them go Quins, don't they? But that's quite saturated with Surrey and everything like that as well now, isn't it? So...

Bats (08:59)
Yeah. So like my big break was going to Hartbury. And what my big advice that I give anyone is obviously keep working on the things that you're not so good at, but whatever is your super strength, make sure that you show that as much as you can. So if you're in a trial game or trial session, like if your X factor is like a carry, make sure you get the hands on the ball and carry as many times as you can. So.

Because to be honest, people aren't going to remember what you're not good at. They're going to remember what you are good at. And then you've got a chance once you get through that first step to improve your work -ons. And no matter how high up you get or how good you become, your work -on is always going to stay there. But what people remember is what you're good at. So if you get the opportunity to show that, then show it as many times as you can. And then from the back of that, there's always time to work on anything else.

Carl (09:50)
So what would you say, I know you're now a pro mate but what would you say is your work on?

Bats (09:55)
my work on. So probably my tackle selection.

Carl (10:01)
Okay.

Bats (10:04)
I probably need to get a few more dominant hits in. So my carry, my carry -ins good. I beat a lot defenders and my footwork, whatever, but my tackle selection, I tend to get quite like, I get quite planted, which then leads me.

Carl (10:20)
bit flat footed, is that a little bit down the timing or you're a little bit keen or is...

Bats (10:26)
I think it's just like my approach to a tackle. So if I can't let the attacker pick his way and then I go for a chop tackle, which obviously it's effective, it makes the tackle. But for a second row now, you kind of, if you look at the ones that are going really well, it's the ones that make those dominant hits time and time again. And if you get your approach right and you can get your feet in close, then you're

Obviously your power base is closer to the collision, which then allows you to get more.

Carl (11:00)
Do you think that's down to the tackle height change, Joe? Because obviously you're not a small lad for people that aren't aware, you're what, six nicks, nearly six, seven, roughly. So do you think the tackle height has affected your selection? Did you tackle better when you were younger, when that tackle height wasn't in place?

Bats (11:10)
Yeah, about nine six seven. Yeah. Yeah, it's better which not to go on

potentially, I think obviously whenever you go into a collision, you have to reassess everything. like as soon as you, you go higher, you run the risk. however, saying that obviously in the pro game, there's a lot more scope and a lot more, outlets. So, my work on would, would be, if I'm looking at my game outside to in it's probably, I need to up the amount of dominant tackles I have. my tackle.

success rate's good, however, am I really stamping authority down in defence when it comes to the collisions? Probably not.

Carl (12:00)
What's your super strength then? Probably not having to jump in a line out. That's probably up there, isn't it?

Bats (12:04)
Yeah, at the moment, so Bristol finished the season with the best line -out in the league, which is amazing. So probably my line -out intellect in terms of calling and then my jump. Also, I'm very comfortable with the ball in my hand, which suits the way Bristol play. Obviously, we've had a year or a season of two halves, and the second half we've taken the shackles off a bit and played a bit more of the ball. So that suits the way I play.

I like playing to the line and either going myself or putting someone else through. So that'd be probably my main super strength. But obviously the job title of a second row is to dominate the air. So if I'm not winning the line out or restarts or getting well in the defensive line out, then I'm pretty useless for somebody six foot seven. So yeah, I think that's my super strength. And then anything I can do on the back of that is a bonus.

Carl (12:59)
I've got a couple of mates that I've come up to the Bristol games a few times. They're big Bristol Bears fans, got a little group chat. they've been proper fan girl in that we've got you on, mate. So they think you've been a massive, massive impact. Because that was Bristol strength for ages when it was the maul off the line out. And there was probably a couple of years just before you joined that they kind of lost their way. They had that brilliant season where everything was pretty much coming down maul.

Bats (13:11)
Hahaha.

Carl (13:27)
and they're just opening up space and then they kind of lost their way for a couple of years. So the lads in the group chat can't wax more lyrical about what you've done over there, mate. I know it's not just you, it's a team game, but they're big fans of yourself, mate. Has Pat Lam sort of just taken a handbake off down to the lack of relegation or is the team in a bit of a transitional period at the minute? What's your...

Bats (13:49)
I mean, we definitely don't look down the table. Everything we do is looking up. So I wouldn't say relegation or lack of relegation has hindered anything to do with us. We...

Carl (13:56)
say on that or you're not allowed to say.

Okay.

Bats (14:16)
We've, as a team, we've obviously, like I mentioned before, we've had kind of a year or two halves. We looked a little bit, well, we looked quite a lot at like winning the kicking game early in the season. Obviously, South Africa won the World Cup by doing that. Leicester won the Premiership a couple of years ago doing exactly the same and all the big stats and all the big...

Carl (14:34)
last year with it, yep.

Bats (14:41)
like key points in games we're looking at. If you win the kick metres you win the game. So we went down that route and obviously to get those kick metres and to make a real big claim in that you have to have a dominant pack. So you win penalties, which then gives you opportunities to kick more, which you're definitely going to retrieve by getting the position up there which then obviously needs to get good line outs and good mauls and good scrums. So.

Carl (14:46)
Okay.

Bats (15:10)
We looked massive in that and we won the first two games. We beat Leicester and we beat Saints, which was amazing. And then last kick of the game, we lost to Quins which was unfortunate. Just gave away a penalty last play and they kicked over and they won the game. And then Exeter away, we had a kick to then get a point, which then we missed, which then, so in a space of two weeks, we missed out on five points, which obviously was telling coming into the year. And yeah, I think...

We probably went a little bit away from identity a little bit. We got a bit more focused on stats and once we took the shackles off after that Connacht game in the Champions Cup and we really put Bath to the sword, put 50 on them, we then put Saints to the sword, 60 on them. Obviously everyone saw what happened against Newcastle. Gloucester, we beat more defenders than anyone's ever had in a game before. So, like, we probably have...

a lot more of a complete performance and balance team now than the beginning of the year because of the transition and the growth that we've all made as individuals and as a team. So next year everyone's, I mean, we felt like we were in a good spot to get into the playoffs. Obviously the loss, the Saracens at home really hurt us and then Saracens hurt us again by then losing to Sale, which we didn't see come in and...

Obviously credit to Sale they've had a really good second half this season as well.

Carl (16:38)
Well, I'll...

 you, when it was like, Joe, let's do this in about four to six weeks time when you win the prem. And maybe I'll put the kiss of death on it. I do apologize, mate, but I was just like, I thought you were in the prime position. Most people didn't expect Sarries to lose that last game either. So you guys did everything to put yourself on the sheet. So as you said, maybe it was the early, the start of the season that...

Bats (16:51)
Hahaha!

Carl (17:08)
put you in a position, but do you think that also made you a better team? You've kind of got to go to a certain place to become a better team and Northampton Saints have done that probably for the last couple of years and now they've found their own stamp and their freedom and the way they want to play rugby. Is that sort of a fair stamp for Bristol as well?

Bats (17:21)
Thanks.

Yeah, I think it's always interesting, always having one eye on the future and stuff like that. But we definitely felt as a squad that we're in a better spot. Obviously we're going to lose quite a few big names and big players at the end of the season to next. We've got a really good core group of Bristolians in the team.

We've got a good core group of young lads, but everything seems to be pointing in the right direction. It's weird, pre -season comes and goes, and then by the end of pre -season, you feel like you're in an unbelievable spot. It's not until you have that first game where you kind of really know where you're at. So, yeah, at the moment, we're probably still... stewing on what could have been. Obviously, if things went a little bit different, we could have been playing this weekend. If...

We probably picked up a couple more points throughout the year. We definitely would have been. So now like in this five weeks off, which we have at the end of the season, a lot of it is down to like catching up with the family time, getting things ready, being away from the club and then pre -season will soon come and then by the end of it, it's the new year, new team and yeah, Reigns grow again. But I feel like Bristol Bears are gonna be up there.

Ask a lot of questions of the of the Prem lot questions of the team obviously we're in Champions Cup again, which is amazing for the club should be and yeah, we're we're looking forward to the challenges that has as well as well as all those amazing way days that The European trophy gives you

Carl (19:08)
Any big signings you reckon are going to turn up, Joe? Are you going to leak any secrets for us? Anyone that you've got the rumblings, is Beauden Barrett going to turn up in a different shirt this summer or summer? Imagine that. With Sheedo going, they've got to upgrade it slightly, haven't they, at least?

Bats (19:18)
wow, unfortunately no, I hit...

Yeah, unfortunately, I hear when everyone else hears so Yeah, I mean it's obviously exciting seeing Bill Matta come He was amazing in the World Cup and he's been amazing for Fiji and Edinburgh for for quite a long time. So yeah, I mean Fijians have gone really well when they've come to to Bristol. I mean, we've got a couple with the club now who are great great lads and they're just I don't it is about the Islanders they just built different and I

Carl (19:28)
Heheheheh

Yeah.

Bats (19:53)
Obviously I know there's a couple of Fijians down at Gosport Park at the moment that play and I've watched them play when my brothers played in the twos and stuff. So yeah, I think universally I think they've just built different. Yeah, Tom's good. Yeah, he's good. Yeah, he's managed to pull that for the twos a few times.

Carl (20:03)
How is Tom? How is Tom? I remember when he played for his first game in the twos or maybe the threes and I was in his game and he turned up and everyone was like, it's Joe's brother. I was like, all right, okay. And then he put in one hell of a shift as well and we thought, right, you're not going anywhere. And then he disappeared off to like college or uni, didn't he? And that was, I'm like, right, hold on. Like this.

There's blokes that can't catch a ball down here and then you've got your brother that's being able to actually go forward. So it was great to see, but I'm glad to see he's back in Gosport. Has he finished his college bit? Has he moved back home? Has he got any ambitions to go away? Yeah.

Bats (20:39)
Ha ha.

Yeah, he's moved back home for a bit and he's got a job in Chichester way now. So it'll be interesting to see. I think he played a fair bit end of the season for the twos, just looking to get a bit of fitness back up. So yeah, he tells me he's going to really get off the preseason and go from there, but we'll see what happens.

Carl (20:53)
Okay.

Yes, it's a cool story until you've done a pre -season down in Gosport. Are you going to be popping down there? Any sessions planned for you to pop down and give pointers as well? Because for people that don't know, you're a regular face down and back in Gosport, aren't you?

Bats (21:12)
Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I hope to do it again soon. Obviously, it's all like how it lines up with my time off. I always message Polly when I can to see if he needs to help him hand or if he wants me to come over and cover anything. Obviously, I've got a lot of time for the club and it was my home way for home for years and years from the age of seven till 16.

And then even now, whenever I'm home, I go back and watch some of my closest friends still play for the club, which is amazing. And obviously my mum and dad and my brother have all been involved with the club. So yeah, I think obviously having a child myself over now, timings get a little bit hazy. So I'll be keen to do it again. And when I'm down there and I messaged Polly and see what happens.

Carl (22:09)
Yeah.

So obviously, as you said, you've got five weeks off. Do you literally switch off from rugby? Does it completely go out of your mind apart from this nause getting you on the podcast? But do you literally switch off and then it's go time again when that first day back at pre -season is? Or do you sort of keep your eye in?

Bats (22:34)
I mean, I absolutely love my job. I love the sport. I mean, we watched the games on the weekend, the two finals. I'll be watching the semi -finals this weekend. I'll watch the final next week. They say five weeks off, but for three of them you have to be doing some training, which we've got a GPS for.

We could just do it away from the club, which is good.

Carl (23:04)
You know I've got a dog, you know I've got a dog that you can just put it on and let him run around the garden or something.

Bats (23:08)
No, I'm not that fast. They're no straightaway But yes

Carl (23:14)
Put it on the boy. The boy would be able to run around. He'll put some steps on. brilliant.

Bats (23:17)
Yeah, they know that he's too fast for me as well, they know again.

So, yeah, so, but yeah, no, I don't switch off and I'll be whatever I can do to try and improve my game next year. I'll be looking to try and do it's yeah, to get fifth, get fifth place this year to just miss out has has burned deep in me. So not wanting to feel that again. And if I can get myself to be a couple percent better then.

Carl (23:47)
Alright.

Bats (23:52)
I'm going to take the opportunity and we'll get after it next year.

Carl (23:56)
So obviously as you touched on earlier, the diagnosis, mate, what was the support within the game? Was it 100 % from start? Obviously, as you said, you got released just around the COVID period. So that was kind of after the diagnosis. Was there everything was on the plate? They did everything they physically could for you and helped you back through or?

Bats (24:16)
Yeah, well, obviously they initially caught it so...

Carl (24:23)
Yeah.

Bats (24:24)
Like, thankfully I was at Bristol where there's a big hospital and they've got a cancer ward and they've got a young, not just that, they've got a young, a teenage and young person cancer ward, which was, which was huge for me. So my first chemo session was in, was in like an adult ward, which was full of like, you, one of the best word, a lot of old people, which was quite scary for a 21 year old who was meant to be in the prime.

Carl (24:48)
Yeah.

Bats (24:53)
this fitness life to be very ill and be surrounded by people who were very, very ill, which was scary. So then I got transferred to a teenage ward, which obviously is sad because it's young people that got seriously ill. Yeah.

Carl (25:08)
Little bit more relatable though and a little bit closer to your age than the other end of the scale in that sense as well, isn't it?

Bats (25:14)
Exactly, yeah, so like haven't

Carl (25:17)
And they probably took a benefit off that as well, actually seeing somebody of your stature and your profession. They probably had a little bit of hope and a bit of understanding around it as well. Did it sort of help some of them that were in there?

Bats (25:30)
Yeah, I mean, potentially like everyone's doing their own little battle in their own little world. What helped me was obviously I was in this ward, which I could see people that were similar to me. It was a lot more open. I could have people come visit more often because I was with people who weren't necessarily as ill as those upstairs in the adult ward. So I had family, I had teammates, friends come visit me, which was amazing. So yeah.

Carl (25:34)
trying to keep their own bit, yeah.

Bats (25:59)
Having that on the doorstep was huge. Bristol as a club were amazing. The team doc, Dr. John Williams, who's now not with the club anymore, he's now moved on to different sports and teams, but he was unbelievable. He supported me throughout from diagnosis to ringing the bell to say I was cancer free to years after. He was still messaging me when I was still at Worcester. He then rung me up when I went back to Bristol. So like he's been huge.

Carl (26:21)
Yeah, probably.

Yeah.

Bats (26:28)
in the background. Pat was really good with me. Obviously, there wasn't lots I could have done training wise, but he still was okay about me coming into the training ground when I felt okay. Doing bits that I could do, I was very in the mindset of I was going to do as much as I possibly could without fucking myself. So I did.

what I could. He was very accommodating to that. The S &C staff were great when I was coming back from it. So I think what I probably struggled with being 21 and very naive was the cancer treatment finished. I was now cancer free. So in my head, I was now fit. However, obviously it does. It probably took and probably what I've said since like in the hindsight was the break that we had for COVID was probably where I caught up.

Carl (27:13)
Right, takes time.

Bats (27:27)
So I remember playing games like six months after and just really blowing up after 40. And no matter how many minutes, how much training I did, I couldn't bridge that gap of like getting the fitness there. And it wasn't until that forced rest where my body probably could catch up. It wasn't getting battered. It wasn't getting flogged all the time. I could do training on my terms and...

Carl (27:35)
Right.

Yeah.

Bats (27:55)
I probably did a lot less gym and a lot more running. So I've got that fitness up and then I could then build up my weight a bit more naturally instead of trying to rush it all. And yeah, I then got myself to a point where at Worcester I was a lot fitter. I could move better. My collisions were more often instead of being a big one and then having a long time to recover. So yeah, I think.

Carl (28:17)
Yeah.

Bats (28:19)
The naivety of it all led me to probably get a little bit down on myself. So I used to get really annoyed that I couldn't quite perform at the level I was prior to my diagnosis and cancer treatment and then whatever. To then obviously having that rest and then realizing that I probably wasn't giving myself the best chance to.

Carl (28:29)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Bats (28:45)
And then since then, obviously having a son where I didn't know if that was possible because they said there was a risk that I was going to become infertile. So I've got a load of swimmers in the bank and bath. But luckily managed to have my son naturally, which was huge. And this probably put a massive perspective on life and how I approach my rugby, which has been unbelievable. And just having him come to my games and seeing the pride in his face. He doesn't know who wins. He's...

Carl (28:55)
Yeah.

Bats (29:13)
To be honest, he supports the rugby ball because he only cheers when that gets kicked or when that goes over the post. So he's never lost a game yet, because he just supports the rugby ball. So that's been a real turning for me in terms of my outlook on life, my outlook on the rugby game as well.

Carl (29:15)
They don't care where it goes.

amazing.

Yeah.

Do you think you pushed yourself, the club were happy to put the handbrake on or did you want to try and prove to yourself that you could come back quicker? Do you think you put more pressure on yourself than the game did or did you feel that you had to return the support that they put in you? Was that something that you run through your head?

Bats (29:50)
Yeah, I think obviously when you get injured, there's a clear timeline of things you have to hit to get back to playing and being fit. But with the cancer diagnosis, a lot of it is all about feel. And there's not been that many documented cases of people having cancer in rugby with Hodgkin's lymphoma to get back into full -time professional rugby.

Carl (30:08)
Bye.

Ahem.

cases of it. Yeah.

Bats (30:20)
So a lot of it was down to like, they asked me the question, how am I feeling? I say, yeah, I'm class, let's keep going. There's only so much that they can do, like to pull the handbrake on. And I would never pass the blame. I think I pushed it as much as I could just out of probably a bit of ignorance. Yeah. Yeah. So I.

Carl (30:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, pure determination, a bit of both. Yeah, he wanted to return it, but also you probably thought, was there an element that you thought if I said, no, I'm not ready, not that they doubt it or anything like that, but you kind of felt that element of, I've got to just try and get back as quick as I physically can for everything they've done.

Bats (30:59)
Yeah, I think also like your in professional sport, your shelf life is very short and your shelf life can only survive on minutes that you play in the public eye. So if you if you're not playing for an extended period of time, then your stock or your value decreases massively. And then once it gets to a certain point, it's very hard to then get yourself back in the public eye where your stock can grow. So your

Carl (31:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bats (31:28)
you're facing the clock on quite a few different things. And I was 21, I hadn't achieved anywhere near what I wanted to in the sport. And like the drive to then get myself back out there to play my best rugby, to perform for Bristol, to be a pre -missed player, to be first name on the team sheet, to try and get an England call up to then, like you have all these aspirations that you go into it.

to then realizing that, hang on, I've not played in the Premier yet. I'm nowhere near the team. I'm not fit and my contract runs out in a year's time. So, you have all those things in your head and obviously, hindsight, I go, hang on, I hang on, I pull back a little bit for four months and then give the last six, seven months my all where I can perform better, but.

Carl (32:09)
Yeah.

Bats (32:25)
I rush those four months where then I then play a couple games. Don't play that great, but do enough. And then I get pigeonholed. He's like, he could be good. He's got potential, but are we willing to risk it? He's not fit. What's he doing outside of rugby? He did have cancer, but that's that's been a year now. So like how committed is he? Do you know what I mean? So there's a load of different things where maybe the naivety of my age, the ignorance of everything would be fine. I'll just work myself through it.

Carl (32:40)
Yeah.

Bats (32:56)
then having now where I'm a bit older, had the time to probably, another thing that COVID gave me in the break was it forced me to reflect. It forced me to think about what I had actually been through as a person, not just as like a rubber player who's coming back from an illness, like as a man, as a boy, basically, who had cancer and now is trying to come back from that. So, yeah.

Carl (33:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bats (33:23)
Obviously, the risk of getting too deep and heavy now, it's forced me to see things very differently. Not to say that I won't make the same mistake again, you get hungry and when you feel like something's so close that it's your dream, then obviously you can to get there. But yeah, I think to answer your question, I don't think the club...

Carl (33:36)
Yeah.

Bats (33:49)
knew to put the brakes on me, I think I very much pushed it and they just backed my word for it.

Carl (33:52)
Yeah.

As you said, there was no previous, there's no template to work from. So as you said, it's a lot of it's down to you. You sort of guide there. They've probably got a book that tells them this is where we should roughly be at. If you were miles ahead or miles behind, they'd obviously adapt around it, but as you said, it's a lot down to you. So brilliant that they managed to support you in every way. Do you think...

Bats (34:02)
No.

Yeah.

Carl (34:25)
but because there's such a lack of professional teams within the English rugby divisions, do you think that accelerated your thought process? Because you couldn't drop down a league or two to be able to go and play in, say, the championship or Nat1 while still making a professional salary. Do you think that sort of...

questioned your acceleration to what you wanted to do and how you were going to come back from the illness.

Bats (34:59)
Like a lot of this point to a pride as well. But like you said, there's not many pro teams below the prem. And those that are pro, obviously the drop off is quite big. Like.

Carl (35:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bats (35:16)
and you see it quite often, someone that drops down doesn't always jump back up. So the pride bit comes into it. I think.

Yeah, I think, I don't know if it was about the knowledge of like where I'd go next. I think I was very much under the thing was I want to pay Bristol back, like not only the club but the city as well. So I wanted to play and I wanted to perform for Bristol.

Carl (35:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bats (35:40)
Obviously, I think for English rugby to get to the next level, I think it does need to have more than one professional league. I think the time needs to be put into the championship. However, where's that time? Where's that resource? Where's that money coming from? I don't know. Yeah, I think it would. I think we've seen three teams fold already.

Carl (35:58)
Would promotion and relegation help?

Bats (36:10)
We've seen Jersey in the championship fold who were one of the few full -time teams. So like in an ideal world we have the money that football has and we've got three, four leagues that are professional. There's promotion relegation where there's actual jeopardy and if you go down it's not guaranteed to come back up. But however, we're not in that stage yet.

Would love I would love for us to get there do I have the answer on how we get there? No, no Yeah Exactly

Carl (36:43)
I don't think anyone does at the minute, Joe. I think we're all searching for him, mate. Do you think the new TV deal with TNT will help? Because obviously they're supposed to be televised in every game. Have you guys got any wind of, are they going to do midweek games to try and put all the games on telly, or is it still going to be the standard weekend and Friday night games?

Bats (37:05)
I've heard different things that probably everyone else has heard that it's all going to be potentially might throw some Thursday night games in just to try to accommodate but I think what will happen will be it would just be Friday to Sunday and they're trying to stagger that to kick off times potentially. Yeah, I am.

Carl (37:22)
That's quite easy though, only with five games a weekend. So if they open the league up, that's probably where they're going to encounter their issue. Do you think that's why they're potentially ring -frencing the Premiership while they try and figure out how that works a little bit, while they try and get the TV money in and try and see how it grows and if it can save? There's probably at least two clubs within that Premiership bubble that are going to go pop again soon.

Bats (37:23)
I'm not

Yeah.

I mean, I hope not. I hope there's been plenty put in place. I think if another Prem team goes, then I'm not too sure what the Prem has to hold on to. Nine teams is nowhere near enough to be a league that holds any substance.

Carl (37:47)
I hope not, but I think they're big rumours.

Bats (38:07)
I'm not too sure what will happen. The TV deal hopefully will keep sponsorship and funds coming in and that will help. Obviously it's a weird spot in the moment because the product itself is actually really good. The Premiership, if you look at it as a product where, obviously maybe if you discount Newcastle where everyone could be anyone. I think Newcastle next year will be...

Carl (38:23)
Mm -hmm.

Bats (38:33)
a better team. Obviously I've worked with Dimes and I know kind of how he'll get that squad in shape and Newcastle is already not the easiest place to go to so now to have that on top of a team where under a Dimes leadership where they'll be scrapping for everything will be a tough place to go and win so next year they'll have a game every day where you're not too sure where the result will go and...

Carl (38:59)
I think they're trying to tap up Hoggy as well. They're trying to get Stuart Hogg down there as well. So he might be able to help him a little bit. But do you think that's just a sticky plaster over everything? Because there's also rumors they're going to split the league in two as well. And they're going to do two separate leagues and then the playoffs and stuff like that. Is there just a lot of sprinkling of glitter onto a bit of dog shit in a minute while they try and resolve something that's not quite?

firing where it needs to be, where it should be really. Because the players that are in it and the amount of players that are escaping and going over to France to get their payday because it was just signed off by the other day. All the DORs have turned around and said, no, don't change the ruling on players playing abroad because we don't want to try and keep them all here, which is fine. But they haven't got the money to keep the players there. As you said, their careers are so short, they're getting paid.

Bats (39:31)
Yeah.

Carl (39:57)
or three times the amount, unfortunately, they're in a position they're going to have to go.

Bats (40:01)
Yeah, I think, yeah, obviously, they're going to look at a lot. I think what I quite like about what's happening at the moment is they're not just sheer blood in mind is going this is going to work eventually, they're looking at different options that they're trying out different things. Obviously, not everything's going to stick. No, it's going to work. But the model at the moment clearly isn't working. And I think.

Carl (40:16)
Hmm.

Bats (40:30)
whatever can be done should be done. And if that then helps the league grow and then we can end up having those positions where players aren't tempted to go abroad because they're in the best league, the best players are playing here, they can test themselves. Obviously the national team only improved because of that. And the premiership is still tough. It's still very, very hard league. And I was like, people...

Carl (40:56)
yeah.

Bats (41:00)
talk about how tough the top 14 is and the URC now, the South African teams, how competitive that's become. But we still had two premiership teams in the semi -final. Sarries are still challenging all the time for everything. Northampton, they're resurgence now. Quins can do everything on their day. Bath, obviously Bristol are going to big us up. We can pull a shock off anywhere. We got the...

the tag of loving to run and play, but we can tuck up the jumper if we need to and we'll go through a team. So the amount of Southern Hemisphere players that come to the Prem and realise it's not a Mickey Mouse league, it's tough and yeah, to have to do it week in, week out, how tough it is on your body and mentally where obviously in France, they kind of put a bit more onus on the home games and the URC, because there's so many teams.

And the South Africans don't always send the strongest team possible away like there's a little bit of respite within the weeks. So

Carl (42:07)
Yeah, they use the away games as their rest games, don't they? But in France, they've got four Pro Leagues as well. So they've got strength and depth over there in the club game in France. And they've got international players still pottering around in the fourth division over in France.

Bats (42:13)
Yeah.

Carl (42:24)
as the home of rugby, that's where we should be aiming. Like surely as a nation, we should have that same stamp.

Bats (42:34)
Yeah, I think like all it takes is to see the celebrations of Toulouse on the weekends after they won the Champions Cup. They absolutely love it. And I mean, La Rochelle the last two years, how much they have a party. Whenever I've played away in France, the atmosphere at the game, after the game is something else.

Carl (42:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bats (42:55)
Obviously, you only have to go to Sale away, Newcastle away to see a dip in the attendance and obviously, they've done a fantastic job the last few years to get the numbers going up again. And obviously, it helps because their team's performing better. But each Prem club is still making a loss each year. So whatever we're doing isn't working or isn't working quick enough. So, yeah, obviously,

Carl (43:02)
Hmm.

That's mine tonight.

Bats (43:25)
It's easy to point out the faults. I don't have any solutions at the moment. We're in that position where the product itself is great. But how do we then market it better potentially? But obviously, whatever France are doing, they're doing very well and credit to them.

Carl (43:44)
they don't have multiple teams within an area. So obviously with the London clubs in England, you've got obviously you've got Quins, Sarries et cetera, et cetera. You've got a few within a close, at least in France, they're kind of within each region. So if you're part of that region, you support that club. And I think that probably helps a little bit. Obviously we don't really have much of an exposure from as you, Hampshire, Kent, Sussex.

Bats (44:01)
Yeah.

Carl (44:12)
like Dorset, on that South Coast doesn't really have a, doesn't have a Premiership team. And then you kind of get a little bit further out, there's a little bit of a concentration of all of them. Then as you said, you've got Newcastle at the far end, you've got Sale that's off a little bit. And do you think the teams are located in the right places for the Premiership to grow and be marketable?

Bats (44:33)
Yeah, I think well obviously like there's massive areas of land that there's nothing and even when London Irish were here, like it was to commute from Gosport to London was unfathomable after a school day to then do training for a couple of hours then come home.

Carl (44:55)
Yeah. And then they moved to Brentford afterwards, didn't they? So that was when you, they were probably in Reading. So what, that's a good hour and a half trek at least, two hours plus. right. Okay. Even worse then. Yeah.

Bats (44:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, but they always they always trained in Sunbury. So like it still didn't. Yeah, so it didn't even always add up. So yeah, and then obviously in the southwest you're blessed because you got Bath, Exeter, Bristol, Gloucester a bit further up. And obviously before it all went tits up, you had Worcester, and Walsh really close together in that corner there. So the M5 corridor was was stacked with teams and

Obviously the East Midlands with Leicester and Northampton, they kind of dominated the teams up there. But then there's a massive gap before you get to to Sale in Manchester and then even a bigger gap when you get to Newcastle. Unfortunately, we're dealing with two variations of the game as well. Like, the league dominates obviously the North predominantly, which is fine. But how do we then try and get ourselves in there?

Carl (45:57)
Yeah.

We've got teams like Doncaster Knights who are doing pretty well in the championship. You've got teams that are up that way that are doing very well within the championship but have been deemed not good enough to be in the Prem.

Bats (46:04)
of a seat.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I don't know how we then accommodate. Obviously the jump from the champ to the prem has become ginormous. Obviously the fairy tale of Exeter is kind of the last club to be able to do the jump.

Carl (46:25)
Yeah.

but that was down to money and exposure. So obviously they managed to, they didn't have a blinding season the first season or so in the prem, did they? So they had a building season and then they managed to carry on and do what they've gone and done now. So sometimes you've got.

Bats (46:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, but you say like they've had a building season, but they did well enough to stay in it. If you think about like London, Welsh, obviously Worcester went back and forth, Bristol went back and forth. Like it's tough to stay in them.

Carl (47:01)
Ealing would be strong enough against the likes of Newcastle at the minute?

Bats (47:09)
Yeah, I think I've played against Ealing quite a few times. They were good outfit, a good team, well coached. It just probably goes back to like how sustainable are they as a club? Unfortunately, they don't get the attendances that other even other championship teams get. So how sustainable is that model? Are we then obviously like they've been the best team in the champ for quite a few seasons now.

Carl (47:24)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Bats (47:39)
Not been able to be promoted because they don't meet the minimum requirement Then you've got to ask the question then what is stopping them from getting the minimum requirement as a as a team that potentially Obviously, I don't know the answer to this. I don't want to Speak out of turn but from an outside outside of looking in like what? What are they not doing to make sure they can then be promoted because it almost gets to the point where it's like?

Well, who's going to come second in the champ this year because you know, Elon's going to win it.

Carl (48:10)
Yeah, well Cornish Pirates finished, so they've got a ground that's big enough, they've got to set up, and their owner wants to sell, but he can't sell the pirates until they are a few making a decision on whether they're ever going to be allowed in the premiership. So...

Bats (48:26)
Yeah.

Well, my understanding is this season, the only team that, if finished first, could have challenged to go up was Doncaster. Yeah. obviously I played, I played a National 2 -1 championship and Premiership and all very good leagues in their own right. National 2 was a huge baptism of fire for, I was 17 at the time.

Carl (48:36)
Because of their grounds, yeah.

Where did you go? Where did you play then? okay. Yeah.

Bats (48:54)
So I was at Harbury, so we won that two that season and obviously it was not too south. So doing a lot of traveling. It was when it was just south and north is the National League. Obviously now split into three. But as a young second row, it was perfect for me to try and learn my trade to then go that one where the game sped up a bit. There was a lot more.

Carl (49:18)
Yeah.

Bats (49:24)
Flowing Rugby, there were some like bigger names that obviously were over the hill a bit but still playing, which was huge. And then Championship is so hard to play in. And I think people don't give it the respect it deserves until you play in it. So I played in it for Rotherham on loan. And I would say they obviously played for Bristol. And yeah, I think there's always the result that no one expects. So obviously when I was at

Carl (49:42)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Bats (49:54)
Bristol, Jersey came over and beat Bristol, the only team to beat us that year. And you have last year, Colby beat Ealing this year. I think London Scottish beat Ealing. So it's a competitive league and it's a tough place to go, especially around the Christmas period where those pitches aren't looked after as much as maybe you get in the premiership. I mean, the Wrecks never looked after in Bath. But so.

Carl (50:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bats (50:23)
It's a tough league and I think if we got a bit more exposure people would see the beauty in it that there is there and there's a lot of talent. There's a lot of talent.

Carl (50:31)
It's an amazing league. It's just, how does that gap close? As you said, there's a gulf between the champions. How do we close that gap without having to open the door to Premiership relegation? Do we replace the LV Cup with maybe a Premiership Championship Cup where they get the blood themselves in through that period? Is that something that could happen?

Bats (50:58)
I think obviously this year because of the World Cup we naturally had that Premiership Cup where the championship teams are in but unfortunately there was quite a lot of mismatches where...

nature of it was teams saw it as preseason games and then you have like a Premiership top team playing against a championship team who maybe would not put out the strongest team they possibly could risk of injuries which then led to like some huge scores so obviously the one I can comment on was Bristol played Cambridge.

Carl (51:32)
Nah.

Bats (51:39)
and that was 90 something to 10, I think. So that doesn't do the game any good. That doesn't do Bristol any good. That doesn't do Cambridge any good. But if you have that competition where players that need game time, so either coming back from injury or a third choice in their position where they haven't had as much game time, get an opportunity to play against those in the championship who are probably eyeing up those positions.

Carl (51:46)
Nah.

Bats (52:09)
becoming a Premiership player, getting into a squad, then you get a bit more eyes on the game, a bit more competition in there and you kind of see where the talents are and then it probably opens up a bit more of a conversation instead of a couple of massive losses and wins.

Carl (52:31)
Yeah, that's fair enough. With what happened at Wasps and at Worcester, did a lot of players probably get lost within the system? And do you think we'll ever see them again? But are there any that you know of that should still be at the top table, but there's just not the room within their premiership systems for them?

Bats (52:54)
Yeah, I think like, unfortunately, three teams go under, there's 50 players per squad. That's 150 players back in the, in the, in the, in the pool of potential people can get picked up off. There's a limited space in every team because of the salary cap and naturally training numbers. And I can only speak of players that I

played with and trained with Worcester who some of them have decided they're going to they gave up and now looking out of the interest that people come to mind. So Andrew Kitchener, very good, talented second row, close to 100 games. So Worcester in the Prem was fantastic. And now, yeah, he had a trial period at Sarries because they needed

Carl (53:34)
already.

and just wrapped it in, just wrapped it in.

Bats (53:53)
second row and those three months came and went and he wasn't kept on and yeah now he's working in London. Obviously great for him, he's decided this is what he wants to do and it's working out but yeah I really think he could still be a Premiership player. Matt Kvesic who's playing at Coventry now, very much a Premiership player. I think potentially his age went against him but...

Carl (54:12)
He's a Cove now, isn't he? Yeah.

Bats (54:22)
He'd signed a three year at Worcester so obviously that's black.

Carl (54:25)
 of the bull I've seen in the modern time. He was phenomenal over the ball Yeah.

Bats (54:30)
Yeah, and he's just an absolute ultimate professional. So, like, unfortunately, he's now been lost out to the Prem. Brilliant for Cov, they've now got someone of that calibre playing for them. And no wonder they pushed Ealing close this year.

Carl (54:42)
 I've got him on LinkedIn. I think he's just signed up to be a coach at a school in that, in the area as well. So I think he's going to be a rugby coach for one of the sort of the private schools up there. So massive gain for obviously Cov and the school that's in that area as well. What a player. But he could easily probably do a job, as you said, in the likes of Newcastle.

Bats (55:01)
Yeah.

Carl (55:09)
a new club that would be in the premiership would be perfectly fitted for him, wouldn't it, really?

Bats (55:14)
Yeah, or like, to be honest, he is such a competitor that if you put him in any squad, he would go two for now to try and get the starting spot. So and then the last person off the top of my head would probably be Perry Humphries, who's he's playing in America now, which is obviously like amazing for him. Like,

life experience going over to play abroad in America and having that challenge but such a constant performer for Worcester and an amazing winger scored so many tries ridiculously strong and ridiculously fit and if potentially his again if his age was a bit younger when this happened he probably would have been snapped up quickly but when you get to that point where

Let's say out of those 150 players, 20 of them are wingers. You're going to probably cut off at a certain point where the age is. So let's say you're not going to look over 25 because you want to probably get somebody who's a little bit cheaper. Yeah. And then you go from there. So unfortunately, a lot of players probably fell that bracket there. Obviously, I probably got a bit lucky that I had a good relationship with Bristol still.

Carl (56:23)
At least get a return on your investment and stuff.

Bats (56:38)
So, at the time they needed a second row because of injuries. So it probably all felt a bit well for me. However, it could have easily happened to me, what happened to them where I'm now looking at other opportunities elsewhere, either within the game in the championship or abroad or away from the game, like looking to try and pick up a job outside of that because I've got mortgage to pay and family to look after.

Carl (57:05)
How did that all come about then? Did you make the call or did Pat see it on Tele -Tex that you were available and just sort of gave you a tinkle or what? How did it all work out?

Bats (57:15)
So, obviously, writing was on the wall a little bit with Worcester. My payment each month was getting a little bit later. There was a lot of rumours flying around, inside the club, outside the club. My coach, Mark Irish, who used to be at Worcester, then went back to Bristol.

Carl (57:21)
Yeah.

Bats (57:38)
kind of asked a question if I would be keen. I said I would be. Obviously then spoke with Pat. He asked the same question. I said I would be. Then it all came to a head at Worcester and yeah, then ball started really turning and before I know it, I was talking to Bristol and then signing the contract.

Carl (57:59)
So you weren't still in the group chat, just dropping texts to the lads like, sign me up sort of thing, none of that sort of. mate, imagine that, that's one way of getting signed up. So as you said, with your diagnosis, you are a brand ambassador for Rugby Against Cancer as well, which is a cancer charity, rugby club, local to us, Portsmouth based.

Bats (58:04)
No, no, I'm not too sure how much pool the lads will have, so...

Yeah.

Carl (58:29)
How long have you been part of that and good is the message that they're pushing out to everyone? Because obviously they just went to Bournemouth Sevens, gone back to back, defended titles, didn't they at least? So they're backing up what they talk about outside of the pitch, on the pitch as well at the minute as well, which is really good to see.

Bats (58:37)
Yeah, so I've been part of them for six years so I Remember speaking to Aaron quite early on when he was thinking about He's done a lot of legwork at that point, but we haven't gone live

Carl (58:53)
Yeah.

Bats (59:06)
asked me if I'd be keen to be an ambassador. He told me about the vision that he had for it, of using that rugby family to help support and obviously just increase awareness, increase not only awareness of the illnesses themselves, but increase the awareness of support that's out there. Other charities, they're very much of the model of...

the money that they raise, half will go to obviously like the big main charities, the other half will go to charities that are a bit more specific and localised to certain strains of the disease or affect certain demographics and stuff like that. So I think it's important that what I liked about it is obviously my love for rugby and what I felt when I was...

Diagnosed and going for the treatment was the love and the support that was out there for people that I didn't know but

that reached out to me despite not knowing me, but we shared the love for the game and for the sport was our only bonding and they still felt the need to support and rally for me, which was huge. And obviously we talk about rugby values and I know sometimes people can think we're as rugby players or people that love the sport, we're a bit upper and arse in terms of we preach a lot, but not necessarily practice, but I...

Carl (1:00:20)
Yeah.

Bats (1:00:38)
I felt those values firsthand. I felt the rugby family firsthand and how amazing that can be in my darkest time of being there to support me. So the chance that this has to harness everything good about rugby in the community game and away from the professional game and how that can give you a sense of belonging without really knowing someone but you share the game.

Carl (1:00:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bats (1:01:08)
It's huge. So I think what they've done is it's been fantastic. I know the work that Aaron has put in, the work that the team's put in, it's been huge. It was fantastic. We had them come up to our home game. It was our combination game, which celebrates all the local teams in Bristol. And they came up to celebrate that with us and got a message out there. They had their stand at the Ashton Gate where they were very much supported. And...

Carl (1:01:26)
Yeah.

You had the training tops on and stuff of it as well, didn't you? Yeah, it's brilliant.

Bats (1:01:38)
So yeah, it's been huge and unfortunately we all know someone or have all been affected by cancer. So it's very much...

disease that's close to everyone in a certain way like which is awful so that whatever we can do to help fight the fight in whatever way we can in awareness or support or fundraising or whatever it is we can do it together within that rugby family which has been amazing.

Carl (1:02:10)
When you went back to Bristol...

Obviously you picked up another knock last year, done your tweaking knee again, didn't you?

Bats (1:02:18)
Yeah.

Carl (1:02:20)
Do you think when you finally managed to cement your spot, that really allowed you to flourish again? Because you've had one hell of a season, mate, and obviously you've really started to push on and stamp that. You're starting to get tries and et cetera, really probably playing your game. Do you think being able to secure your spot has helped that, given you that freedom?

Bats (1:02:40)
Obviously, nothing's ever guaranteed and the game's fickle and you're only as good as your last performance sort of thing. But you do obviously start getting a bit of credit in the bank and a mistake that you do early on in your career, which is a bit more catastrophic, becomes a bit more lenient later on. But yeah, I think firstly, I've very enjoyed this year.

for different reasons. I've enjoyed the ownership that I've had with the line -up. I've enjoyed the trust given within me to play and I've played a lot. Obviously, before I broke my rib against Gloucester, I played every minute and then obviously I had to come off against Gloucester, but the luck of the season where the weeks off fell, I missed the Newcastle game and then...

was lucky enough then to be selected again to play against who was that next game? Gloucester Newcastle, Saracens and then obviously the final game against Harlequins. So, yeah, I think I've enjoyed that. I've enjoyed the growth the team's been on and the journey the team's been on this year. And then off the back of that, like the second half of the season.

I've enjoyed the ball in my hands, the chance to express myself in attack. Yeah, so I think all of this has then accumulated into me having a good year. I mean, you play better and you do better if you enjoy it. I've obviously loved having my family come watch me and be a part of the big moments and the big wins. I think...

If I'm going to be hypercritical of myself, I think there's a lot more I can do and I'm excited to hopefully show that. I know what I need to do this off -season and this pre -season to get myself in the best physical shape to then kick on again. If that happens, then I'm into another good year and I'll be staring down the barrel of having 100 games for Bristol, which would be an amazing achievement to have as well.

be a proper way to thank the club and thank the community in the city of Bristol for what they've done for me in my lifetime. So, yeah, I think...

To answer your question, shortly I think I've enjoyed my rugby which then has allowed me to play well.

Carl (1:05:26)
Yeah. Do you think you're in a position to be able to put yourself back in the shop window for an England call -up? I know you've obviously played for under 18s, under 20s. Is that the next target you've got an eye on? I know you probably don't want to say it out loud, but if you carry on having seasons like you've had, you've surely got to be able to put yourself in some sort of frame if you know you're at the pinnacle of where you could be.

Bats (1:05:42)
thing.

Yeah, I think obviously that's the dream and that's the aim. I have quite a few dreams and aims. Obviously I want to win the Premiership, I want to do that with Bristol. I want to get 100 games for Bristol. And I want that England cap, I want that England tag next to my name. And I think if I achieve what I want to achieve on the domestic with...

Win the Premiership with Bristol have another good year keep growing then there's no reason why I can't Obviously again the race against the clock I'll be 28 next year People will be talking about the next World Cup cycle would I feature in that I don't know my age bracket Not only that there's been Yeah, but not only that there's some outstanding second more options

Carl (1:06:43)
It's only two years away, isn't it?

Bats (1:06:51)
I mean Maro Itoje has that lockdown every time and rightly so, he's an amazing player and Alex Coles is going really well for Saints and obviously you've got George Martin and Chesham Leicester who have played outstanding for England and both of them were huge in the World Cup, just gone to get to that third place. So, I mean...

Carl (1:06:56)
journey really.

Bats (1:07:19)
I would love the opportunity to come and if it does then I'll make sure I do what I can to try and achieve my dream but I think if I get bogged down on thinking about international honours too much then my form for Bristol will slip and then I'll hurt myself ultimately but I mean yeah I've got like I said I've got a lot of dreams a lot of aspirations within the game and all of them are very much achievable if I

Carl (1:07:34)
miss that here and now.

Bats (1:07:47)
put my head down and work and then the special crowning moment of potentially getting a cap on becoming an international, then we'll come off the back of that.

Carl (1:07:57)
Obviously if it comes to the end and you're not in with a shout of England and you know that. Does going to France interest you? Does that payday like the others, does that give you an inkling that you might pop over there? Or maybe America or Japan? Do you see yourself playing anywhere but in England?

Bats (1:08:19)
I mean...

I mean, I'm very much open to any opportunity. I'm not blind to the fact that opportunities like these don't come often to have a chance to live and work abroad and give my son the opportunity to live and to live abroad and have different experiences, different cultures. It'd be a once in a lifetime opportunity.

and it's something that I'm very much open to. Obviously the older he gets, the harder that decision will be made. But I've got two more years at Bristol. Rugby is very short term, so my focus is moving to Bristol and playing the best I can for them. If I go well, then opportunities will come off the back of that, hopefully within Bristol or wherever it may be.

I get to continue the dream of being a professional player for a few more years, yeah.

Carl (1:09:22)
Now that they've got Sinks' salary off the payroll, some of the money must be coming your way, surely?

Bats (1:09:28)
Doesn't work like that sadly.

Carl (1:09:30)
who's the best player that you've played with and who's the best player you've played against?

Bats (1:09:35)
Best player I've played with? Probably Steve Luatua for Bristol. I mean, for what he's done off the pitch at Bristol is huge. He was captain for years and the role he has now to help guide Fitz is massive. And him on the pitch, I mean, he's always seven, eight out of 10.

Carl (1:09:41)
Yeah, worldwide.

Yeah.

Bats (1:10:02)
Mr. Reliable puts in the big shots, has the ability to do exactly the right thing at exactly the right time, which helps the team immensely. The year that Bristol finished top, he was massive in everything they did. And he's been a real mentor for me as well, for my two stints there, which has been huge. Another player that I've played with who...

Carl (1:10:02)
Yeah.

Yep.

Bats (1:10:30)
who is unbelievably good would be Ted Hill. He's an absolute freakish athlete who is so strong and quick and his...

Carl (1:10:35)
Yeah.

Bats (1:10:44)
pain thresholds through the roof he'll just keep going and going and it was a pleasure to play alongside him to get over the game line and not playing against him and I'm sure he'll be going to New Zealand with England in the summer I'm sure of it so that'd be my two and then to play against the only name I can ever ever think of would be Will Skelton just

Carl (1:10:47)
Yeah.

it make your job easier.

Bats (1:11:11)
played against him at Saracens, when im at Leicester at the time. And the man was just a freak in terms of, obviously you hear the stats, you hear how big he is, but to actually see it on the pitch is something else. And I'll always remember I was obviously playing and he was running a bit of a hard line back towards the breakdown.

Carl (1:11:13)
Yeah.

Bats (1:11:38)
I remember seeing him early and I was thinking, right, this is my moment. If I put a good shot here, then highlight real, I'm going to get clubs coming out my ears. People are going to want to know who this next person is. And as he's caught the ball, I've hit him high. I've gone across the, across the tits trying to get a big collision. And I've hit him a bit blind. So he's not seeing me, all the momentum with me. And yeah, he's, he's worn it. He's taken a step and.

Carl (1:11:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bats (1:12:07)
He's not moved a little bit, so as he's moving I've then gone a bit lower, trying to get his hips, he's taken another step, he's not moved, and then before I know it I'm hanging off his foot trying to get someone to help me out with the tackle. So yeah, exactly, he's a monster of a man and deceptively skillful as well. Obviously he doesn't need to because of the brute strength that he has, but yeah, he...

Carl (1:12:12)
Yeah.

Ha ha!

Ha ha.

screaming please help

Yeah.

Bats (1:12:36)
he would definitely be the one that I would always say because not many people can do what he can do and that's purely because of how big he is. So, yeah.

Carl (1:12:45)
Yeah.

Amazing. Joe, thank you so much, mate. I could talk for hours, mate. This has been phenomenal. I'm sure there's not many people that thought we could get a pro player on this podcast so early, but such a gentleman. Absolute quality to get you on here. As well, taking out your time, obviously. Go well next season. Thank you so much and great to have you on, mate.

Bats (1:13:09)
Perfect. Thank you so much and good luck for what's next. Cheers mate, catch

Carl (1:13:12)
Cheers, cheers, Joe

Carl (1:13:15)
Well, that brings this pod to an If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through And express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues. So in today's episode, we found out how Joe managed to become a pro after having that desire from a young age to that nearly being swept away from him.

with a cancer diagnosis at the 21 years of age. It's getting his career back on track and becoming one of the best second row options in the prem. Next week, we've got James Shanahan the DOR at Blackheath Rugby Club and currently seems to be signing all of the talent available

James is also the head coach of Cambridge Uni for the Varsity Games, so we are able to delve into that too. Another great interview

Once again, a huge thank you to you all. Thank you and goodbye.