Episode 11 - The Kiano Fourie Interview - From a passion for the game to supporting India's charge in rugby

Kiano Fourie, a high performance coach for Rugby India, shares his journey from South Africa to India and discusses the development of rugby in India, the challenges, and the future goals for the sport. The conversation covers the growth and development of rugby in India, including the challenges and opportunities faced by the sport. It also explores the potential for professionalization and the regional structure of the game. The conversation delves into the geographical and logistical aspects of rugby in India, as well as the potential for a franchise-based model similar to the IPL in cricket.

Transcript

Carl (00:13)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep shining light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl, thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod and keep in touch with us on our social media platforms. We have some more amazing guests lined up in the coming weeks and we really don't want you to miss out on them. Firstly, a bit of an update around the podcast.

Over the next few weeks I'm out travelling around, so the intros and outros will be a bit shorter and straight into the interviews. We will still be releasing every week, so don't worry about that. All of the interviews have been pre -recorded ahead of time to make it easier for me while I'm travelling around, which means some of the topics are out of date and have had their resolutions found, hopefully, but we still get to see the raw responses.

from our guests before the outcomes have been resolved. So this week we have Kiano Fourie from Rugby India. I've been so excited to get this one out and released and get to talk about the game in India and where it's going. But first, a quick recap of the results this weekend and what a weekend of rugby it was. With the Olympic sevens women's repachage won by China.

Olympic Sevens men's repachage won by South Africa beating Great Britain in the final. England beat Japan with a very lacklustre of performance. I think a lot of positives and negatives out of certain parts of that game, but wins a win, so you keep on moving. South Africa obviously put Wales to the sword in the double header with the Ba Bas then beating Fiji with an exquisite show of flamboyant rugby from both sides.

Trinidad managed to beat Guayana 26 -3 as well. The UAE gave Malaysia a 62 -19 pump in the Rugby Asia Championships.

Hong Kong China also beat South Korea to win the Asia Rugby Championship, gave South Korea a 67 -7 pumping. Gloucester Hartbury asserted their dominance with an amazing second half comeback to win the PWR title against Bristol at Sandy Park. The Blues won Super Rugby with a 41 -10 victory over the Chiefs. URC finished up with Glasgow beating the Bulls out in Pretoria.

Top 14 has a final set up between Toulouse and Bordeaux after Toulouse beat La Rochelle and Bordeaux overcomes Stade Francais. So quick run through there. We've got some amazing games coming up in the coming weeks. And obviously we'll keep a touch with them over our socials rather than doing intros and outros through the pod to make sure that you guys are in touch with everything. But now let's get into the interview with Kiano.

It's another belter, great one. Really interesting to see the passion for rugby outside of everywhere else

So let's get into it. It's a great one.

Carl (03:20)
Well, this week we have Kiano on from Rugby India. Me and Kiano had a little meeting the other week, didn't we? Had a little sort of catch up, got a bit of a download of the story and the events over there and absolutely fell in love with the story. Couldn't wait to get him on the pod. Now finally able to get him on, do the conversation around where his rugby journey started and also where...

where he is in India at the minute and the forecast for India rugby to try and hopefully take over the world with Kiano. Is that a fair cop?

Kiano Fourie (03:59)
Yeah, no, that's certainly the mission and the dream, honestly.

Carl (04:02)
So thank you so much for your time, mate, for coming on. Could you share your journey? Because I'm originally from South Africa, is that correct?

Kiano Fourie (04:10)
Yes, firstly, thank you for having me on the Pod It's something I was really looking forward to and always good to, you know, just talk rugby man. It's the chats that really also off the field that are part of the game too.

Carl (04:19)
Yeah.

100%, yeah, so it's brilliant to get you on, mate, so I really appreciate that.

Kiano Fourie (04:28)
Yeah, so I mean, just to start off, so my name is Kiano Fourie I am 22 years old at the moment and I am a high performance coach for rugby India. I work in and around the union, in the SNC, with the scouting and with the hands -on coaching itself.

I've worked with various teams, the men's 15s particularly, the men's 7s, the junior 7s women, as well as some here and there work with the senior women 7s team. Overall, just looking to make a difference anyway that I can over here. But to take you into the story is I grew up in South Africa and didn't know much of rugby.

until about grade seven, just before high school. Some friends of mine had started playing for the high school, so I thought I'd join in. And then that's when I met this great figure in my life, Mr. Anton Fentor, who he... Phenomenal man, and honestly, the way he teaches you about the game, you really fall in love with it, you know? And he said a lot of life's lessons you can learn from the game of rugby.

Carl (05:37)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (05:46)
And from then I was pretty much sold and then I knew exactly where I was going to end up going to high school. I knew I needed to be in that school and went through there, joined the teams and went through it all and just the passion hadn't necessarily kicked in, but the desire and the want to be a part of the sport was there.

from about year 10 when we started getting into the provincial systems and stuff and we started going for trials and everything, then the passion naturally like geared up because we started seeing it as potential, as something we could do.

Going a bit further, then throughout the years, then started playing a bit more, got involved in the club systems, started playing more locally for the school, as well as in the clubs with a mix of all the different schools in the area. And then from there on, we just really just enjoyed playing rugby, man, and just trying to take it as far as possible. And then...

post high school I had joined, we have a rugby academy in South Africa, a seven specific rugby academy, SA All -Stars, where we basically, you join up after school, you get trained up, and then there's opportunities throughout the network worldwide. So, from this, essentially from this network, then...

Carl (06:57)
Mm -hmm.

wow.

Kiano Fourie (07:12)
Keeping in mind post when I left school 2019, 2020, the first year out, it was COVID. So we went straight into lockdown, which then proceeded for another two years, which kind of put a dampener on the whole experience of like now playing club rugby outside of school and getting to see what all of that was like. So the opportunities were scarce and it was a bit tough to keep the ball rolling.

especially with financial situations and everything, you've got to, at some point you've got to start making decisions about what you can do and how you can keep it going and keep the dream alive. And yeah, then 2022 May, early May, I had been approached by my coach at the time.

Carl (07:46)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (08:03)
and he had done some work, he himself is an international coach, he's worked with a couple of teams throughout Africa as well as namely India for a decent amount of time, about five, six years. And he had approached a friend of mine and myself that were in the academy and he spoke to us about an opportunity to go over to India and coach a state team, Bihar in Patna.

Carl (08:28)
Yep.

Kiano Fourie (08:30)
So which was quite the experience man as a first timer coming to India. Bihar was certainly a bit of a shock. Just because you really see the dead honest life there. Like it's simple, it's cut and dry. You've got a...

Carl (08:43)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (08:47)
be putting up if you're going to get anything out. Like you got to, you have to definitely put your worth in the game. And yeah, so I mean, we came over with no idea what to expect. And then, you know, we found the same characteristics. We found the, we found a field that we called it at the time, within a stadium. We saw the oval shaped ball that we knew. And then, you know, we knew that there was something that we could get going here. So,

Carl (08:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (09:17)
Then we got into it and for that tournament, which is the Senior Junior Nationals where they do selection for the national team essentially. Every year the 28, 29 states of India all put up a team.

Under 18 boys and girls and senior men senior women They all come to this tournament and they they compete it out about 50 60 matches a day Just absolutely just going at it. It's it's quite it's quite something to to watch

Carl (09:49)
What a spectacle for the game that must be to see. We briefly touched on it before as well because they're hopefully going to tweak that slightly as well. Is that correct? Because as you said, 50 -60 games a day is quite a lot to get around and try and get covered off and everyone put their best foot forward.

Kiano Fourie (10:07)
Yes.

No, no, it is certainly a bit of a push at the moment, but I mean, every year we do look at changing up the...

more or less the formation and how we schedule the matches and everything. So sometimes we'll spread the tournament across three days or sometimes across four, sometimes across two, but with different types of pool settings and everything. So we're trying to find the right combination that can accommodate so many teams in this one tournament. But it's a growing game over here, so we do have the time to try things out and find out what will work.

for this specific environment.

And additionally, we do also have the benefit of a much more condensed and smaller tournament. So from this tournament, the 28 to 29 states that arrive, then post the end of the tournament, there's a top eight ranking on the senior men's and the senior women's side who will then go on and they usually end up playing at this tournament locally called the National Games. So the National Games is somewhat you could look at it as if it was India.

Carl (11:14)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (11:18)
is internal Olympics, I would like to say, because they have, they put up the top eight teams from whichever states ranks one to eight, and then they all go and hash it out for a week, two weeks in whichever state is hosting it at the time. This year, I believe Uttrakhand is hosting it. So it's a state up north.

Carl (11:21)
Okay, well.

Yep.

Okay.

Kiano Fourie (11:42)
And last year we were hosted in Goa, which was out to the west, which was a bit more tropical. So you get with the moving tournaments and everything, you get to experience all the different climates and settings of India, which is just also a whole other conversation.

Carl (11:55)
Hmm.

Yeah, I can imagine. At least, as you said, they'll also pretty much be able to adapt to any climate around the world then as well. So that's probably not a bad way of being able to move around and make benefit of what India's got to offer within internal systems as well. So, because obviously with the Sevens Tour, they pretty much go here, there and everywhere in the world as well. So they've got different...

different sort of climates to adapt to. Is that pretty much already covered off within the, basically within India? It's your own training center effectively.

Kiano Fourie (12:39)
Yeah, I mean, within India itself, you know, we have a bit of everything. We have parts that are cold and snowy. We have parts that are hilly and beautiful mountain landscapes. We have the tropical, the coast side. We have your drier desert type setups. And it's completely all over the place over here. But truly, you can get a great experience of all.

Carl (12:43)
Hmm.

Yeah.

So with the, obviously with the national trials then, does that mean that the international team changes each year? Or is there the players that are pretty much there or thereabouts every year, they're in the right team to put themselves in the right shop window? Or similar to what the England football team Gareth Southgate said about players are picked on current form rather than...

who they know and what they knew before.

Kiano Fourie (13:39)
Yeah, to give it to you bluntly and direct, I mean, from the most amount of time that's been, say, in the past decade, there has been a great reoccurrence of players that have come into the team. Purely, I would like to say because I believe they reached a certain level and they best maintained it. And certain centers within India are just...

better developed in terms of their, maybe their coaching procedures or how they look after players and player retention and all of these factors that put into which teams show up at the tournament every year. So gradually, as we've seen and heard over the years, the tournament has improved, especially amongst the smaller states, which is ideally the focus when it comes to the tournament time, because we already know the top eight. We know more or less which teams are going to show up. We know they prepared. We know they're ready.

Carl (14:19)
Yep.

Kiano Fourie (14:37)
So now we're looking at seeing which of these teams are now on the smaller side of the set up, which of them are improving. But in terms of the current national team, we are pretty much heavily reliant on, say, our states like Odessa, Marastra, Haryana and Delhi.

these and as well as West Bengal these these few states seem to make up the the general greater percentages of the team selected and that are going abroad and representing the national team, but we would like to see this changing over time. We've seen states like Rajasthan.

Carl (15:03)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (15:18)
has started to bolster with talent and they've just been coming out of the works there. And we're seeing smaller states as well like Bangalore start putting in some interesting players. So it's Goa as well. So it's nice to now see the overtime we try to get, you know, just a couple new faces into the camps each time.

Carl (15:18)
Yep.

wow. Yeah.

Yep.

Kiano Fourie (15:41)
And hopefully, through that experience and everything, at least they go home with, okay, now I know what the level is I need to be at. So when they go home, you're a bit more inspired and you have a bit more of an idea of what is it going to take to hang out with these guys and then hopefully make the team one day and wear that jersey with them.

Carl (15:49)
Yep.

Yes, mate. So what do you think has been the change? Has there been sort of coaches come out from rugby India to sport in those different states, etc., or has a bit more money gone into the game in India, which has brought in better coaches for those regions? What's been the change from your opinion?

Kiano Fourie (16:22)
The change honestly in my opinion is I think that the sport itself, once you've experienced it then you've actually been able to take part in it in whatever form. Whether you...

whether you're just an official on the day just running up and down with the flag or if you're actually playing the game or if you get the opportunity to pick up a coaching job, then for a lot of the people, once they experience the sport, then the rest is all set and done. You know how that goes. So I think the biggest thing in India's awareness of the sport is we still find it, even after all of this, even after having hosted the Commonwealth in 2010 -11, is...

we still find people are unaware of rugby. And so the biggest thing for us at the moment is growing the awareness. Because we know for a fact, and you can see it all over the world, once people see the oval ball, once they touch the ball, once they play, and they've experienced those first few moments of rugby.

very few people actually turn away from it. So the mission is just to grow the awareness and we know the rest will come. We know the people who want to be on the coaching side of it will step up. We know the people that want to play will get into what they need to and then we find all forms of people. Someone just genuinely wants to be a physio because they want to be a part of being a physio for the exciting sport of rugby.

Carl (17:53)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (17:53)
So it's awareness, I would say. And secondly, it's got to be achievement for sure. A lot of the time from what I've noticed is here, when you bring the medal, you get the attention.

Carl (18:09)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (18:09)
So the second I know for a fact, the second we secure that gold medal, that elusive gold medal that we're still chasing, once we get that and it makes it into the newspaper and rugby is seen as a viable option to anybody who may come across that newspaper article, who may find it on the internet or whatever. We know that by them knowing that, okay, we've gotten a gold medal. It's a viable option. It is something I can turn into a career. Then we'll see all sorts of numbers.

coming in. You'll see people that want to be coaches because they also might want to get the next gold medal. You'll see the players that want to come in because they believe they can help us get the next gold medal and so on and so forth.

Carl (18:51)
with a population of what is it roughly 1 .2 billion in India?

Kiano Fourie (18:56)
1 .2, 1 .4 around there.

Carl (18:59)
So not a bad player pool availability if you could tap into a certain percentage of that. There's a fair few to get at. Is it really promoted in schools? Is it part of the school system in India or is that something that's the next sort of push for rugby India?

Kiano Fourie (19:02)
Not...

Yeah, I believe the getting it more known as a school sport is definitely within the next few cards and something we need to look at.

In terms of we do have some some younger tournaments. We do have our SGIF under 15 tournament Well, originally it was under 14. So we had just done touch up until this point and from next year we'll have under 15 and it'll be contact so we're introducing contact a bit sooner and there which will then you know have have effects later down the line and In terms of the schools, we do have an under 19 tournament that takes place but

Carl (19:36)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (19:56)
it's not necessarily it's more like again it's a thing of awareness and not many schools are aware that this is a sport that you know we can also include along with swimming, cricket, soccer so once we once we get rugby into those conversations and rugby is seen as

as it is a sport, it is something we should have available. And the interest is there from like maybe parents asking for the inclusion of the sport or enough people and players and kids knowing about it. Then we'll definitely see it get into the schools. But it's a process and I believe our development team is looking at getting it in the mix of schools and a part of the extramural curriculum.

Carl (20:39)
Yeah, that's brilliant. So obviously, as you said, the gold medal is a target to try and put rugby in the shop window in India. We discussed briefly the other day, what is the target? Because the sevens is really good for yourselves at the minute. You've got a really good development system within the sevens, and that's probably where you can potentially hang your hat on at the minute. What's the target for the gold medal? Where's that going to come from?

Kiano Fourie (21:07)
The current target for the gold medal is our continental championship, which is the Asia Championship. So we, being in India, we fall under Asia Rugby. So we take part in the annual ARST tournament, Asia Rugby Sevens tournament, which is the second tier in... So you have the ARSS, which is where you're Japan, China, Hong Kong, Korea, all of them are competing around up there.

So there's the top eight teams over there. So ARST is the qualifying tournament to get to that. So you get a gold medal here, then you get promoted to this tournament ARSS, which is a three leg tournament throughout the year. Where ARST, we have a single, we have a once off tournament this year being hosted in Kathmandu, Nepal.

Carl (21:59)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (21:59)
So that is essentially where all eyes are focused and all efforts are going towards the gold medal on either the woman or the men's side. And then hopefully we can hop into the ring of ARSS and really get a look at the level up there.

Carl (22:08)
Yeah.

So when's that tournament?

Kiano Fourie (22:20)
That tournament is looking to be about 4 to 6 October.

Carl (22:24)
Okay. hopefully we can see a gold medal come out from both. Let's target both the men's and the women's at least. So that'd be, so obviously after that then what's the sort of the forecast? Cause we spoke about, you've got the tournament cut, that was 2026 was the next.

Kiano Fourie (22:30)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. That's the dream.

Yeah, so if I'm going to go in the next order that's coming up, I believe 2026 should be the next Asian Games, which is, which we're not too sure whether it'll be hosted yet, but Asian Games. Then you have 2028, which will be, I believe, Los Angeles Olympics. But from our belief, I'm not too sure if we're still pushing for that one necessarily.

Then shooting a bit further ahead, we know for a fact that 2036, the Olympics should be coming to India. So based off of that, we know that by 2036, you don't want to be the host nation that just gets walked over. So you want to be the host nation where we actually surprise a lot of people and we already have momentum and awareness abroad about, you know what, you're coming to a place with a really good team. So that's the ultimate goal.

Carl (23:41)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (23:42)
Ultimate vision is with the Sevens, it being an Olympic sport is that you want to be at the Olympics. That's the entire point of having that dream is you want to get to that tournament. You want to get to those games and you want to experience that environment. So we have a lot of athletes from India that already compete in the Olympics. So for us, it's just from the Sevens perspective, we just want to see our men and women in those jerseys.

Carl (23:53)
Yeah.

Yep.

Kiano Fourie (24:12)
at the Olympics with the rings.

Carl (24:15)
on their home turf as well. That will be absolutely phenomenal to see. So, sevens has a sort of a glide path planned out for it in India. What's the 15s game look like? Is that a little bit further behind?

Kiano Fourie (24:17)
Yeah.

The 15s is certainly a bit further behind. We do have strangely, I had found out there's a club here in India, CCNFC, in West Bengal, Calcutta So they are, I believe they were founded in 1872.

So they are, I think, I believe, if I'm not incorrect, they are the oldest rugby club outside of England.

Carl (24:59)
Yeah, Christ.

Kiano Fourie (24:59)
So it was a club established a very long time ago and they've played rugby for a very long time. You have a team in Mumbai, Bombay Gymkhana, who is about 125 years old. So there is teams out here who have that 15s culture, but again, it seemed to have become more of a niche sport. The focus shifted to the sevens, you know, with the Commonwealth way back when. So the 15s.

Carl (25:13)
Wow.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (25:29)
sort of seem to take a bit of a backseat. So to my knowledge, the current 15s is a step behind and from the experience I've seen, it's definitely something that our head coach, Nas Buettner, is looking forward to ramping up things again as now we have joined the Division 1 tournament with the likes of Sri Lanka, Kazakhstan and Qatar.

Carl (25:53)
Mm -hmm.

Kiano Fourie (25:58)
So we're looking to stay in this competition, but we know that in this competition, it's going to take certain variables like setting up our own league and having this league played every year.

Carl (26:06)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (26:10)
for at least two to three months where we're getting these guys playing a lot more 15s not just within the teams they can readily reach in their district but at the same time to play a variety of teams and really get contests throughout a proper season. Instead of currently we have about a one week tournament for the teams divided up in divisions one, two and three and at these tournaments the teams play about four

matches in a week which which anybody for 15s knows that that is absolutely like horrendous on the body like you will be livid by the end of that so we are looking at changing the format but again it's a it's a learning process and I think that you know with with time and with with a bit more energy because it's because 15s as well is not an Olympic sport therefore we don't necessarily get government funding for it so the

Carl (26:48)
Yeah.

Progress, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Bye.

Kiano Fourie (27:10)
we have to fund entirely on our own as the as the Federation which is which you know can be a very costly endeavor so it's definitely something we're looking at you know gaining a few more sponsors for and hopefully getting people to see that you know what our 15s is look at where they're at with what we've been able to do on our own.

Carl (27:19)
Yep.

Hmm.

Kiano Fourie (27:34)
So if we had a bit more support in terms of our 15s or we were able to set up certain structures, then we won't have the same answers of, look, we only had a three week camp following a one week tournament for selection. Then it becomes a...

Carl (27:50)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (27:52)
You know, we've seen we've seen these players throughout the season. Then we took them into a camp. Now we're at your tournament. So we know we're ready. So a lot of so that that changes the entire conversation about the 15s

Carl (28:00)
Yeah.

Yeah, because as you mentioned the other day that they've got sort of mini leagues within their own sort of states, is that correct? And then they obviously all sort of convene for that state tournament at the end, which four games in a week for 15. I doubt there's many props that survive that. They must have a whole list of props just queued up ready to come on to play the next game.

Kiano Fourie (28:30)
Yeah, so within the states themselves, these clubs will play it out for however many games they seem to organize within their own. Again, it seems to be completely left up to the clubs themselves who are running their internal systems. So you'll have, to give you an example, like CCFC and Calcutta will play against the Jungle Crows and Harlequins.

the two other teams there. And then they'll play in the the Calcutta Cup, actually. Funny enough, is the they had shown us the trophy that they have there, and then they walked us through the history of the connection between there and the UK. So that's more their local competition than they have the Centenary Cup as well, where they also play. But again, just those teams are playing in it, you know?

Carl (29:04)
Yep.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (29:26)
Then additionally, you'll have, say, in Marastra in Bombay, they'll play, Gymkhana will play against Marastra State Police and they'll play against, it's just a mix of teams, but again, it's club sides that are just getting some reps in against each other. But...

Carl (29:30)
Mm.

Okay.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (29:45)
Then from there on, after they've hashed it out a bit, maybe three, four, five games, like actual games that are supposed to be deciders of some sort of trophy or achievement. Then at some point in the year, we all get together at the Division I, II or III, and then you see a bit more of a... Then you get to see teams from this side of India play against teams from that side. Then you really see the mix of the teams, you know?

Carl (29:52)
Yeah.

You also said some of the facilities and the pitches are probably not very set up at the minute as well. You made a little anecdote the other day that when you managed to teach the sevens how to dive, to dive for a try, because most of them have got used to just dotting the ball down rather than diving down on certain pitches. Do you think that's something that's obviously got to be developed as well before the game can grow properly?

Kiano Fourie (30:37)
Yeah, I mean with the sports of rugby, one of those signals that tell you like this is where rugby is played is when you see the uprights, you know, if you're on your way somewhere and you see this formation and you're wondering what is this thing?

Carl (30:45)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (30:56)
and then you go a bit closer and then you see someone running around on like a marked field with an oval ball. Then the mind starts going and you're like, okay, you know, maybe, maybe let me find out what this is.

Carl (30:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (31:09)
So the biggest thing in terms of another side of growing the game is establishing centers and establishing places where this is for rugby. It's a bit of a statement to have the uprights and for a couple of the states and districts and the different villages and stuff, it's a very different reality where...

you know, you're playing on sand or you've made your own uprights from some wood that you found laying around and then at least, at the least you may have a rugby ball. So for a lot of them, a harsh reality is that they don't have necessarily the same facilities that most people may take for granted anywhere else in the world. For a lot of them, when they go abroad and they see the...

Carl (31:46)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (32:02)
some of the stadiums we get to play at is the first time you see them actually like you see them experience and like feel that actual energy and that vibe that comes from rugby because you're now you're in that environment so it's not you didn't run a camp with soccer posts and then you know you saw uprights you you knew that this field this stadium the intention here is rugby so i would say i would definitely

Carl (32:07)
Light up.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (32:32)
look forward to seeing you know more uprights put up all over the place and see the sport grow and see designated places for the sport to grow.

Carl (32:35)
Yeah.

That's the thing, it's when you see little kids kicking, they're kicking for the posts all the time and that's the engagement and that's the bit that will help the game develop over there. So obviously you just mentioned on there, some of them haven't got balls to play with. How do they adapt that? Do they just do as what they can? They've obviously got the bug for the game and they're trying to adapt it. How can you replicate that?

ovalness as well, do you know what I mean? That's a hell of a lot of tape if it is anything.

Kiano Fourie (33:12)
Yeah, it could, you know, I haven't had too much experience of more in the district and the village setups as well. I've more just worked in the state environment where we know that, you know, we tell them in terms of an equipment list, these are certain things that we need and, you know, they themselves also wear this.

Carl (33:21)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (33:34)
At the smaller, from my understanding, like in the districts and stuff, you know of, there's maybe one guy who he's running his academy and he knows that, you know what, I need rugby balls. So this is probably one of the first things that he buys. And then eventually he works up and he'll get some cones and then he'll maybe get a ball bag and then he'll get himself a whistle. And so it's more of a thing of the...

Carl (33:44)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (34:03)
the ball, they get the ball. Once you have the ball then, you know, whatever ground we're working with, wherever we are, wherever we may be, we're gonna make it work. We're gonna get the basics of rugby down and then we're gonna get things going.

Carl (34:05)
Yeah, the rest of it goes.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's amazing. So obviously Olympics 2036 then is the big target. What's potentially the target for the 15s? Are they gonna sort of say another four to eight years after that? Or can you see that accelerating the catch up with the sevens within that time period as well?

Kiano Fourie (34:37)
The 15s, realistically, I want to say and take it back to the establishment of our league system. Once we have the league system, and I would say within about two to three years when we become a real contender in Asia.

then because ultimately we have to we have to first look around us and we have to say you know what we have to be able to take shots and know the people around us so take on the likes of Sri Lanka who are well recognized side in terms of their rugby then we know you know what we need to be able to square up and get into a match with China 15s and Japan 15s and whoever UAE, Hong Kong,

Malaysia, these are all very good 15 sides within our competition.

But we need to first square up against these guys and get a couple wins and a couple losses under the belt against them, learn a couple lessons. So in terms of the timeline, I wouldn't be able to give you an exact number, but I could definitely say that it looks like we need to get face to face with a couple of these people. We need to, we grow from experience. Anybody that knows is, you can train as much as you want and you can...

Carl (35:41)
No.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (35:56)
can put as much hours in in the gym as you want, but the biggest place that you learn those lessons is in a match. It's in those 80 minutes by the end of it, you're like, okay, cool. So this is actually what it feels like to have genuine pressure coming at me. And then to know that Malaysia plays like this, Hong Kong plays like this, Japan plays like this.

Carl (36:12)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (36:18)
Once you start experiencing this variety of styles of play and everything, then you start to see the players really, really come up together. You see your system develop and further. So the biggest thing is I would say the target now is not necessarily a specific competition or year, but it's it's definitely experience is going to be our biggest target now is to get these guys repped out and playing.

as many games as they can, just build up the hours.

Carl (36:45)
Game time. Yeah.

So the 15s then, do they have a brand of rugby that they've already got in place? What could you compare the way that they play rugby to at the minute? Are they free -flowing rugby or is it still, let's just go through the processes or have you got some players that could probably stand out in a sort of other region, shall we say?

Kiano Fourie (37:11)
Yeah, in terms of how they play, it's actually a very interesting question because what you find throughout India is geographically, there's physically the players are built, they're very different. Like the type of people you come across is very different.

Carl (37:23)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (37:31)
So if you're playing, if you're a team from the Eastern side, so you're from an Odisha or West Bengal, they tend to be a little bit smaller, but a lot faster. So from them, you'll see a bit more of a dynamic game. You're going to see the ball making it side to side. It's going out to the wing with a couple of carries if they do have the big boys available. But more so they're playing, I want to say, with a bit more flair. You know?

Carl (37:37)
Yeah.

Okay.

Kiano Fourie (38:01)
There's a higher level of skill, a lot less like Crash and Bash. Then if you're looking at the northwestern side, you start seeing that more physical game come in, because these are the taller, larger...

Carl (38:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (38:17)
Physical makeup like people of India so you you see this variety with within the different regions and then when we put them in a team together then obviously the way that they play comes down to the However, the coach has seen that you know what this is with the team with the players we have this is how he believes we should play But yeah, it's it's it's definitely and individually there is a couple players man. Seriously. There's a couple players who have

Carl (38:20)
Yep.

Hmm.

Kiano Fourie (38:47)
who you would love to see them get an opportunity abroad. You would love to just hear about them, you know, hop into this tournament and see, you know, how do you do?

Carl (38:50)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (38:55)
Go and experience a tournament in Europe and see what it's like playing with a Swede and a guy from Amsterdam and someone from Germany. Because again, experience. So for a couple of them, there is two, three, four guys I could say would definitely... Even on the women's side as well, there's some really good female players who I believe would do great in the European League and just to get a chance there. But yeah.

Carl (39:03)
Yeah.

Yeah. But there's no pathway for them to make that accessible. Is there many scalps that are wandering around you? The coaches are all in a WhatsApp group sending stuff to European coaches saying, come take a look at this player or is it not there yet?

Kiano Fourie (39:38)
It's in terms of that sort of setup, we're not necessarily there yet, but it would always be something that we look forward to because with that opportunity, it could also bring a betterment of living standards and the way a lot of people, in terms of the rugby, we're not necessarily in a position to directly help them out.

as per se in terms of compensation.

But with time, we're hoping to get there and we definitely know that it is a dream and it is the mission is to be able to turn the sport into a career. There's indirect benefits where, say you get a certificate or something, then you are able to get job placement from the certificate. So there is government recognition and state recognition in terms of certain achievements, like representing the national team or getting a medal at this tournament. So there is some sort of

Carl (40:27)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (40:40)
of return, but in terms of bringing that career feeling to the sport, where they know like, you know, this is actually my job, it's not something I'm doing to get a job, then that's definitely where, for the time being, we would obviously have to look at sending players abroad and getting them opportunities outside and just, you know, growing the game.

outside, well bringing them back in and then having all that experience and those opportunities just flood back into India as well.

Carl (41:13)
As you said, that will also be similar to a sort of a gold medal ticket, wouldn't it? If you've got a player that's gone and played in, say, England or France and stuff like that, that'll be a big way of probably getting the sort of the general public on side and understanding that this game is a viable option. But at the minute,

Kiano Fourie (41:24)
Hmm.

Carl (41:37)
Rugby is very much an amateur sport in India at the minute. There's no sort of professional level apart from certain state benefits. That's where it is at the minute, yeah.

Kiano Fourie (41:47)
Yeah, I would say we're somewhere between amateur and semi -pro. The transition is well on its way and there is some sort of pay that we are able to do internally for players within camp.

Carl (41:53)
Right, okay.

Mm -hmm. Bye.

Kiano Fourie (42:03)
So there is a day rate and, you know, per cut you make it past and for like touring, when you make the touring team, when you're playing everything. So there is some sort of give back, but it's not necessarily where we would want it to be. So we don't technically look at it as if we're really giving them something sustainable because on a month to month basis outside of the camps, you know, that may not be there, but hopefully we'll get there. But in terms of the turnaround,

Carl (42:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (42:33)
Once they, if we do, that's why we're so motivated to get the results is because we know the impact that can have on taking care of them in that time when they're not with us.

Carl (42:43)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (42:44)
And yeah, namely, actually, as you mentioned, we did have a player who I believe he's played in the UK and he played in Japan a bit for Sanga Lyot. So he was the one guy that did make it out and he definitely got some opportunity abroad. Rishi, I still need to look into him a bit more and learn a bit about him, but I do know we had a guy who definitely got out and played a bit around.

Carl (43:07)
Yeah.

wow. Has he made it back to sort of come and spread the word or is he still out on his own journey separately in a minute?

Kiano Fourie (43:21)
I think he's still out on his own journey, honestly.

Carl (43:23)
No, well, obviously if that happens a few more times as well and then the players are able to bring that back at the national stage, that will help spread the word as well within the game. So the current club structure then obviously is they play within their states, then they come back for sort of the national trials, et cetera, et cetera. What is the ideal vision for...

India because obviously 28 states is 27 or 28.

Kiano Fourie (43:55)
28 29 it's

Carl (43:57)
So it's quite a large coverage. Is there going to be sort of an East and a West and then like an ultimate final? I know it's all still being planned, but how would you say geographically it would need to be split up or would it be split into quarters and then they have a final sort of tournament period? Yeah, for the club game to try and bring the states together, as you said, with the league.

Kiano Fourie (44:18)
for the 15s.

Hmm.

Carl (44:27)
We've got the issue in Spain at the minute, the Division D honor A and the Division D honor B. The teams in the Division D honor B don't want to... There's 15 or 16 teams within that league process. At least 12 or 13 of them have turned around to the federation and said, we don't want to be promoted to Division D honor A, even if we win the league. Because of the travel in between a lot of it at the minute.

Kiano Fourie (44:52)
wow.

Carl (44:57)
I live down near Alicante. To get to Madrid is five hours, four or five hours. So to go up to Bilbao, you're looking at a nine hour journey on a coach. So a lot of these players, because the division D on a B literally covers the whole of Spain. They're sort of, they're broken up into regions and stuff, but even the region could be, you've even potentially got to go to Mallorca, which is a flight. You've got...

other teams that are all sort of dotted around. So it's not very well structured. They're also looking at restructuring as well. And the last thing on a new system within India, the last thing you want to probably do is the person, like the furthest south has to fly to the furthest north to play. Because as you said, the funding is not going to be there to support that. How would you foresee would be the best way to divide that up?

Kiano Fourie (45:42)
Yeah.

So off of conversations, I view him as a bit of a mentor, a Naas Botha the head coach. He was going rampant the whole camp on this division one preparations about the next steps and how we need to do this. And from the conversations, we got to north, south, west, east, and central.

and then also potentially with an additional team depending on if need be, but mainly with those five regions and then having them all hash it out so they develop, they'll do their own internal games and make selection for the central, like provincial team.

Carl (46:34)
Right.

Kiano Fourie (46:39)
and then the regional team and the southern and the western and the eastern. And then from there, so we're looking at having those tiers evolve on its way to the national team. Instead of having it go from where you're a club player and then next thing you're in a national camp and then next thing you have the jersey on and the flag and you're overseas. So it's just about filling those in between gaps and getting us to a point where we have

Carl (46:40)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (47:09)
You have your district tournaments going on, you have your involved with the club setups and everything. From those tournaments itself, selection is done for the regional team. The regional teams all hash it out and then from then as well, from the regional teams, then we're making the national selection. Then we know we've had a bit of a filtration system, you know. Then it's not necessarily just selection done off of three weeks of tournaments and then we say, you know what, this should be enough.

Carl (47:30)
Yeah, yeah.

So that would be a little bit similar to where Wales and Ireland are with their provinces and regions and stuff. So you'd obviously have a central, there'd be four franchises potentially if they wanted to look at putting sponsorship around them. What region would you reckon would probably be the strongest if they divided it up into the central?

sort of east, west, north, south.

Kiano Fourie (48:07)
again, I love that question. I'm telling you, it's something I plan that I know I need to do at some point or at least investigate. I don't know how. But you have to experience it for yourself, but geographically, the physical makeup, it's undeniable. Everybody, like you see a bit of a mix here and there, like you see someone, but...

Carl (48:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (48:32)
Genuinely, you can see some distinctive features and make -ups of different people from the region. So, if I have to pick a region that I more so think is going to be stronger, I'm going to the northern region. If you're looking at Delhi, Haryana, Punjab, if you're looking up there, you're going to find size, you're going to find a mix of speed, well -built individuals, you know? And a lot of them are like,

Carl (48:48)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (49:02)
extremely physical, extremely strong. So they're definitely north for me in that situation. But at the same time, my secondary team is gonna be the East, because the East is then those faster smaller guys who are definitely gonna give those big boys a bit of a challenge if it comes down to, you know what, when they're on, defensively, the big boys are gonna have to work a bit harder to grab these smaller, shifty guys.

Carl (49:08)
Wow, that, that, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that sounds like it could turn out to be probably one of the best division, the regional team set up by the sound of it. Because there's a lot of teams that obviously it's not quite worked in Wales. Obviously it lost a lot of the stalwarts. Obviously that were like, this is my club, I don't want to follow it. And then the regions have obviously had to fund themselves. But as you say, if there's a natural geographical markup of what players are going to sort of...

Kiano Fourie (49:37)
Hmm.

Carl (50:00)
show that would be yeah that sounds like it could turn out to be quite an impressive way it's divided up as well so what's the sort of the average travel time for that though that would be still quite sizable what's like how far would how long would it take to get from north to south india

Kiano Fourie (50:15)
So to give you an example, say you're a flight from Calcutta to Thailand is faster than a flight from Calcutta to Mumbai. So basically it...

Carl (50:24)
Yeah.

Right, okay.

Kiano Fourie (50:32)
It's a lot bigger than people would perceive. I think a lot of world maps have made them a lot smaller. But when you're here and you experience it, you actually see the reach and you see how it takes to get from one side to another. You're looking at about, say, to give you an example most recently, so my flight from Delhi back here to Odisha So Delhi is up north and here I'm about east.

Carl (50:33)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (51:01)
it was three hours, 3 .30, almost four hours with a bit of a delay. So 3 .30 is what you're looking at more or less. I would say that would probably come down to the average travel time between the regions.

Carl (51:16)
most of those regions probably wouldn't have the funding for flight costs. Would that also be potentially a concern and an issue or would they have that allocated do you think?

Kiano Fourie (51:25)
I would say, I think it comes down to, you know, how we put it together. I think with the whole regional setup, now you're looking at states combining resources. So then, because now you know that, okay, cool, so yes, we have our internal, so we have our state tournaments where the clubs are hashing it out. But now,

Carl (51:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (51:51)
within the state, we need to select the best of the best and we need to now put them into the camp to make selection for the regional team. So then you're gonna see what I think we would have a look at is, you know, by combining certain states together, you're gonna see them have a bit more of, you know, because some of them might have certain business connections or they might have better funding or they might be able to.

source money a bit better, but one state might be able to offer another something a bit better as in terms of they can host the camps or they can look after players accommodation. So I think for the ultimate success of the overall thing, it's definitely going to take the for the region. It's going to take state buy in. If you get the states working together and you have like if you have Delhi, Haryana and Punjab all on the same page saying, look, now we've hashed it out internally.

Carl (52:26)
Okay.

Kiano Fourie (52:47)
Now the three of us need to combine. We're going to put up a regional team. And now then you start changing the competition changes because now it's we were against each other. Now we're with each other. So now we got to the next level is now we add all of our resources together and now we need to go in this direction.

Carl (52:51)
Yeah.

mindset.

Yeah, that'd be really impressive once it all ties together. Is the general feeling at the minute that that will happen, that there's not been much pushback from those sort of states, or is that still in the conversation stage?

Kiano Fourie (53:21)
That's very much still in the conversation stage, but luckily those conversations were very positively received.

Following the Division One tournament, the head coach and myself, we did have discussions with the Federation, just talking about, you know, just reflection of the tournament and saying how, you know what, if we can change a certain few things or we can do this, you know, we can really have a crack at some of these teams. You know, we can become one of those household names in Asia for our 15s. In the 7s, you always know we're going to show up and we're going to be quite a team to watch. But to have that,

Carl (53:47)
Yep.

Kiano Fourie (53:58)
that same respect is ideally for any federation. You know the 15s is your standout piece. Whether you get government funding or not, the 15s is what ultimately gets you respect. It's the union. Everybody knows union is your flagship. It should be. So.

Carl (54:17)
Yes, that's it. Yeah. So obviously, India have got the the IPL in cricket and stuff like that. Could you see that being the eventual target within rugby as well to bring a bit of exposure and a bit of franchise and a bit bit more money within regions? Because as you said, Rajasthan Royals and stuff, they've got big money able to bring in big players. Obviously, it's not going to happen overnight. But could you see that potentially being the

The end play for rugby within India as well.

Kiano Fourie (54:48)
I think that could definitely be an exciting prospect. I think there's great potential for something like that. And I do believe that that's honestly, that's something that could.

Carl (54:51)
Yeah.

Kiano Fourie (55:01)
become a career for some people. For a couple players, it could definitely bring in exposure. And it's definitely something that gets people talking. I mean, if you look at the IPL, whether you're in Australia, whether you're in, if you're an American cricket fan, if you're from the UK, you know about the IPL and you know it is in India. So I believe if done correctly, the exact same outcome could definitely be before rugby.

Carl (55:02)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, because even bringing in certain players maybe even towards the twilight of their career, pay them a decent wedge similar to the IPL and stuff and give that exposure and also retain a certain amount of an Indian squad as well to make sure that the development works as well. I think that could be a really impressive spectacle. Obviously it's probably not going to happen overnight, but that could be.

Obviously India have made it work pretty well with the IPL. So let's hope they can do it with rugby at some point or even a sevens option I think that could even work as well. I think there's many ways to look outside the box and India have done pretty well leading that with cricket with the IPL. So is it there's no sort of Whispers of that sort of stuff happening. You're not heard any of that in the in the corridors of rugby at the minute. I

Kiano Fourie (56:25)
No, our eyes have just been more on our internal stuff. That would probably end up being more of a private venture. So in terms of us, we're just looking at our local setup. We just know Nepal, Kathmandu, 4 to 6 October, we need to show up correct. So that's more the focus.

Carl (56:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

Kiano, absolute pleasure having you on, mate. It's been an absolute great time talking to you about where India rugby could be and where, obviously, we'll hopefully keep in touch with the pod to get you on. As I said, love to be able to get out there and try and come and see it firsthand and show everyone what you've got there as well. So obviously, I'll be keeping in touch with you, but thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate everything you've done.

you've done for jumping on and spreading the word, mate. It's been there. It's been a pleasure.

Kiano Fourie (57:15)
Certainly, again, thank you so much for having me. I find myself talking a lot about India. And I think you might have to... I just warn you, if you do come here, just know that the rugby is just as infectious over here as it is anywhere else in the world. So just don't pack lightly. Come for a bit of a time and see if you can really take it in.

Carl (57:26)
Yeah.

Perfect.

Don't worry Yeah, the missus has already sold the kids have already they're up for it So you might you might be able to see us for a little for a few weeks at a time So that that could be quite a decent trip for for everyone to see as well on the pod. Cheers for your time. I really appreciate it

Kiano Fourie (57:48)
Awesome.

Cheers, man, thank you so much.

Carl (57:55)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues So in today's episode, we found out about how Kiano has managed to work across the spectrum of rugby in India and where the country has huge ambitions and quite a long history in the game.

but obviously it's really exciting to see where that goes and we really hope to get out there and see it firsthand in the future. Next week, we've finally managed to get a current Pro on with Joe Batley from the Bristol Bears joining us. We discuss his career, how he managed to get into the game and his progression path alongside his cancer diagnosis and coming back to now being one of the best second row options we have in the prem. Once again, a huge thank you to you all.

Thank you and goodbye.