Episode 10 - The Russell Earnshaw Interview - From European Cup Winner to Coaching Wizard

In this conversation, Russell Earnshaw discusses his rugby journey and experiences as a player and coach. He emphasizes the importance of enjoying the game and appreciating amateur rugby. He also talks about his time playing sevens and the benefits it brings to players and coaches. The conversation touches on the limitations of coaches in rugby, including their attitude towards learning, access to expertise, and the politics within the game. The lack of innovation in the sport is also discussed, with the need for coaches to push boundaries and think outside the box. The conversation revolves around the importance of coaching in sports, particularly rugby. The hosts discuss the need for coaches to be adaptable and encourage players to play multiple positions to develop a better understanding of the game. They emphasize the importance of creating a fun and supportive environment for players to thrive. The conversation also touches on the attributes of an ideal coach, including noticing, simplifying, kindness, and creating a positive team spirit. The hosts share their experiences with coaching and highlight the impact that good coaching can have on players' enjoyment and development. They also discuss the challenges and rewards of coaching and the importance of self-awareness and continuous learning.

Transcript

Carl (00:11)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep shining a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl. Thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod and keep in touch with us on our social media platforms. We have some amazing guests lined up in the coming weeks and we really don't want you to miss out on them. It was another great weekend of rugby.

This weekend we actually managed to get over to the Las Leonas game at La Villa where Spain's women played against Canada. The game was another great spectacle of rugby outside of the mainstream. We managed to get as much footage and action as possible that was shown on our Instagram account. The game was end to end with the Las Leonas having a try held up very early on.

Canada finally got a foothold in the game with some accurate kicking for touch and dominant mauls to get a couple of tries ahead. However, Spain came back into the game with some great passages of play. a lot of points out there from missed conversions, but Las Leonas will be ruing the missed penalty that would have put them ahead when it was 19 -20. The game ended 26 -27 to Canada.

It was a great spectacle of rugby and there was a number of local clubs down there supporting their national team. We'll be back down at La Vila for the sevens tournament being held there on Saturday and Sunday this weekend for the women's sevens de la Reina. Spain's under 20s also played against Italy this weekend but unfortunately lost 36 -5. Around the rest of rugby.

The county scene in England came to the finals at Twickenham for the Bill Beaumont and Gill Burns Trophy Finals. In the Bill Beaumont Div 1 Final, Kent won 31 -30 over Yorkshire. Div 2, Oxfordshire run out 38 -37 winners over Cheshire. And Div 3 ended with Devon winning 39 -20 over North Mids

What a day of rugby that would have been to see live at Twickenham for those county teams too. The Gill burns Div 1 title was won by Yorkshire women's overcoming Surrey 37 -7. Div 2 champions are Hampshire after winning 43 -12 over Durham. Love to see that and a few players from Havant and Petersfield to be put in the mix there as well. Div 3 was sewn up by Devon winning 53 -12 over Cumbria.

huge success for Devon there with both the men's and the women's teams winning their respective divisions. The Rugby Europe Sevens tournament was alive again this weekend in Croatia and Montenegro with the men's trophy being secured by Latvia and the women's trophy being secured by Sweden. The men's conference two was won by Cyprus which is great to see them making a mark on the seven scene with the women's conference being sewn up by Moldova.

Don't forget these games are available on rugbyeurope .tv. So worth a watch with some great games in there over the weekend. So if you've got a couple of minutes spare, just cut a couple of games on. So it's always worth to catch up and great rugby on show. The top 14 in France, quarters were played this weekend with La Rochelle beating Toulon 34 -29 to set up a semi against Toulouse this Friday night. And in the other quarter, Bordeaux Begles

beat Racing 31 -17 to set up a semi this Saturday against Stade Francais. The URC's semi -finals did not disappoint either, unless you're an Irish rugby supporter, with the Bulls beating Leinster 25 -20 and Munster losing to Glasgow 10 -17. to set up.

a final in Pretoria between the Bulls and Glasgow this Saturday. It's safe to say that Leinster could be classed as one of the biggest bottlers in world rugby with being so close on so many occasions in recent times with possibly one of the best squads available. Let us know your thoughts on our socials. Let's get a little conversation going around that. Super Rugby is also set for another final this weekend between the Blues and the Chiefs.

The Blues beat the Brumbies 34 -20 and the Chiefs beat the Hurricanes 30 -19 at the weekend. So alongside the two semi -finals and the two finals we've already mentioned, there is the PWR final between Gloucester -Hartbury and Bristol down at the Sandy Park on Saturday. In the Rugby Asia Championships, UAE take on Malaysia on Friday night.

Other internationals over in the Caribbean, Guyana, front up Trinidad and Tobago early on on Saturday morning. Then Japan obviously host England in another international, followed by Hong Kong China against South Korea in the other game of the Rugby Asia Championship. Then on Saturday, it's also capped off with South Africa versus Wales and the Babas versus Fiji. The old saying goes, if Carlsberg could make weekends of rugby.

I reckon this could be right up there with the amount of games that we've got on show here of such high level. However, we now move on to this week's podcast. So this week's podcast, we have managed to get a great interview from Russell Earnshaw Rusty is a self -proclaimed journeyman within the game, but with a glittering list of players he managed to play with or against, it was one hell of a career. With winning the European Cup with Bath and to get him played for the Babas

Rusty was no slouch on the pitch. Rusty has now taken his knowledge and passion into coaching and helping the wider rugby community and other sports understand alternative methods of growth rather than sticking to the norms. A little caveat to this interview, it was actually recorded a couple of weeks ago due to a busy couple of months ahead for myself, but want to keep the pod rolling. So some of the topics have had resolutions around, especially with the promotion and relegation piece in the championship. But this...

is another great interview from a really top guy to have on the pod. Hope you all enjoy this one.

Carl (06:39)
this week we've managed to get Russell Earnshaw on from the Magic Academy currently. Obviously a bit of a journeyman during your rugby career, is that fair to say, Rusty?

rusty (06:51)
I played with some good players. I wasn't a bad player. I definitely appreciated amateur rugby more than professional.

Carl (06:53)
Yeah.

Okay, yeah, because you were around sort of on the sort of the fledgling part of pro rugby area, weren't you? So obviously we'll get into that throughout the pod. Thank you for your time. Really, really appreciate you for jumping on. Obviously for those that don't know who you are and what you've done, do you mind running through your rugby journey and enlightening the ones that aren't as educated as some of us?

rusty (07:25)
yeah. And actually, well, I appreciate you having me on and well done for moving out to Spain. We're jealous. and actually just for me to build on that point around the pro rugby stuff, I was actually in a, I played a bath as my club after university and I was in a meeting and one of the players who had, who was a British and Irish Lion at that point, told the coach that if you got paid a bigger bonus, he would play better.

Carl (07:32)
Yeah.

rusty (07:55)
And that kind of blew my mind, if I'm honest. So I was kind of used to just playing and enjoying the game. So what's my story? Northern, born up North. So born in Middlesbrough, played rugby for Stockton, club rugby. Managed to escape the Northeast, which is a good thing to do. Studied at uni, maths and economics. I'm quite a geek.

Then played professional rugby at Bath, Rotherham, Doncaster, Birmingham, Solihull. Played England sevens alongside that, coached a bit with England sevens then. Taught economics for a couple of years and then coached England 18s, England 20s. Then lost my job in 2018, which is the best thing that ever happened to me.

And we find ourselves six years on and I'm way happier and able to do my own thing. Probably work a little bit too hard. and I guess, yeah, the journeyman bit, I just did a podcast called the journeyman podcast. I was thinking you'd listen to, but it was probably surrounded by when you sent me the questions around players you played with and against, who were the best. And I was thinking, God, I played with some good players and I played against some good players and, and enough to many of those players would have picked me.

Carl (09:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (09:15)
So, and I guess that also, you know, because we won the European Cup in 98 and obviously European Cup weekend this weekend was pretty, it's pretty amazing to think that I won a European Cup in 1998. So.

Carl (09:30)
So was that the old challenge cup, was it the challenge cup or was it the champions cup? Hard to conc -

rusty (09:35)
 we played Brive in the final. I think they'd won the year before. So it was the, my wife went, you won the third European Cup. She told me yesterday. So we, in 1998 we won. I came off the bench for about 15, 20 minutes. I think you can find it in black and white on, on YouTube. and that was, yeah, it was a cool, I mean, actually the best bet was probably the seven days after where we just went like on the lash, if I'm honest.

Carl (09:53)
Yeah.

rusty (10:04)
for seven whole days, so that was pretty exciting.

Carl (10:07)
Amazing. Have you still got the medal and stuff like that from the Heineken Cup? Have you got it framed? Some players seem to throw them in the drawer and try to keep it as humble as possible. What's your...?

rusty (10:20)
Huh.

I have absolutely no idea what the medal is. My shirt is somewhere as well, I have absolutely no idea.

Carl (10:27)
No.

rusty (10:34)
I do know that. I think I washed my shirt and it like ran a bit and that's so, and also it's like one of those gigantic baggy shirts. Yeah, it's old school. Cotton Traders.

Carl (10:34)
I think I...

Yeah, yeah, proper old school ones, yeah.

I was, I think on one of the podcasts years ago, I was listening to somebody that keeps one of their major medals, maybe even a World Cup winner's medal in his sock drawer. It was tucked away within a ball of socks in a sock drawer or something like that. And you think people that would live and die to get a medal like that. There's some people in the position that just like, I'm gonna just keep it there. I know I've got it, but.

If the Mrs. ever just goes through and empties your sock, you're always screwed, aren't you?

rusty (11:20)
Yeah, I have absolutely no idea. I was down in my son's away in Oz at the moment, but in his room there is when I left the Sevens in 2013, we lost the World Cup final. So I've got a silver medal from that. And that's framed with a shirt. So only because they had it done for me. The reality is if that hadn't been done for me, I would be saying exactly the same about the World Cup silver medal as well.

Carl (11:37)
Nice.

So obviously you said about the Sevens then, so how did you sort of get into on the international scene on the Sevens?

rusty (11:51)
Yeah, so, I actually loved playing sevens and there's this big kind of, there's a really good, there's a thing today, wasn't it? Antoine Du Pont, he said that his, his breakdown stuff's got better because he played sevens and like, obviously. so I think it really like complimented my fifteens.

Carl (11:55)
Okay.

Yeah.

rusty (12:12)
Got to travel the world with Sevens, which is probably the cool stuff. You don't get to go to the, this is I went to unless you're an international player at 15. So, you know, you go to play in Wellington and Hong Kong and Singapore and North America and South America and Australia. And yeah, it's pretty, some pretty epic times. And so I played a fair bit of Sevens and then played a little bit for England Sevens. So.

Same year we won the European Cup, I went to the Commonwealth Games in Kuala Lumpur as a player. In my first session, I lost six and a half kilos. Andy Harriman was our coach, he's an amazing guy. So, yeah, I just loved my sevens really. And then when Ben Ryan got the job with England 7s, he invited me to come in and do a week with the team. And amazingly, no one realized I was a terrible coach. And it was one of the best learning environments.

Carl (12:46)
Okay.

rusty (13:07)
You know, you just learn loads, don't you? Like as a coach, you're playing six games a weekend. You're preparing for them. You're doing half times. All of that stuff. You're traveling around the world. You're having to connect a group of players super quickly. So I loved it as a, and I don't say that lightly again, I can remember my first session. Can remember thinking this is the plan. We're sticking to it. Like I just want skillful enough as a coach at that point to be able to.

Carl (13:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (13:34)
So if anyone had questioned me, I think I would have just crumbled and died and left. At that point.

Carl (13:39)
Just hope nobody put their hand up and asked a question or raised an issue. That was it. Just nod and agree and go play the game for me, please.

rusty (13:41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so that was how I got involved in the Sevens really and had an amazing kind of seven, eight years with Ben, won some tournaments. I've definitely won more as a coach than I have as a player, probably just reaffirming the journeyman title that I have.

Carl (14:04)
So one of the questions I sent across to you was should more players play the sevens to develop their game? And now off the back of that, do you think more coaches should be involved within the seven system to adapt their level of coaching as well?

rusty (14:21)
Yeah, well, let me start with the coaches first. So I work a bit at the moment with Clark Laidlaw. He's with the Hurricanes in the Super Rugby. He's doing a brilliant job. He's a really good coach. He said, and they're obviously doing really well at the moment. He said, however, the minute we lose, I'll be Scottish and I'll be a sevens coach. And that is like, people will often go, he's just a sevens coach or he's just a sevens player. Well, Antoine Dupont is a decent player. I just...

read today that Hugo Keenan is going to play in the Olympics as well for Ireland. He's a decent player as well. My view should be they should almost be insisting that coaches coach sevens. It exaggerates so many problems for you as a coach around coaching players to be skillful, actually being able to coach unstructured stuff. There's bits of the game like the kickoffs and that way you can probably get into a bit more detail. As I said, travel the world.

Carl (14:55)
Yep.

Yeah.

rusty (15:19)
dealing with, you know, completely different environments. You play six games at the weekend, possibly against six teams that play tactically very different. So you're having to work out a way of playing, you know, how do you run a half time? What does your warm up look like? What does your debrief look like? You lose two games in a row. Like, how do you get people emotionally back up for the next game? It just kind of exaggerates problems. So coaches would be my view. and then exactly the same for players. So of course, Antoine De Pont's competitor at the breakdown from sevens.

Carl (15:47)
Hmm.

rusty (15:48)
He'll have more opportunities at the breakdown. Of course, players get better at passing and defending space because they have to be able to pass and defend space. So again, I think I would recommend most forwards play sevens. What's his name? The Sharks tight -ed kicking a 50 -22 this weekend. I mean, the game is requiring forwards to be more and more skillful. So...

a small -tided game. I might not play full -length pitch with the forwards, I might play like half -length pitch games. And they do have, they have some like, I think they call them like fat boy sevens, so that's generally for the people that look like me in a little bit, played with a lower number on their back.

Carl (16:22)
Okay.

Wow, so it's definitely a key part. So what would be the benefits and what would the negatives be of playing a sevens? Do you think, as you said with the forwards, would they potentially lose a little bit too much timber for a 15s or would it make them a more all -rounded athlete? Would that be a negative or would that be a benefit?

rusty (16:55)
Yeah, I guess that was always the bit when we were coaching was that lots of Prem clubs would go, well, our forwards will lose weight. Often those weights are quite arbitrary, would be my view. And, you know, Arde Savea played sevens. There's been some decent players who played sevens who were forwards. Yeah, I guess people will get, and again, it's just, it's just a strange little obsession, isn't it? Lots of though.

Carl (17:03)
Meh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (17:21)
Phil Greening once told me that when Warren Gatlin was first at Wasps, they put you on the scales and if you didn't weigh 100 kilograms, you couldn't carry the ball. So players would go on the scales and just put stuff in their pockets. I appreciate your face. That's exactly how I felt about that. And exactly, you know, as lots of young players go into senior environments, they are almost immediately told without anyone seeing them play, you need to put this amount of weight on.

It definitely happens. Marcus Smith as an example, like you need to put weight on, but of course Marcus's super strength is his change of pace. So if he's carrying an extra five, six kilos, then he might not have the same change of pace.

Carl (17:58)
Yeah.

That probably leads on to another question that I had teed up for yourself then. Is rugby very much stuck in a bubble of progression and ego over dominates a lot of decisions, which as you said, if players got to be told they've got to have a minimum weight, there's only one certain structure that they want to develop a club or develop players. Is that limit in the game becoming that exciting piece that's markable to the masses?

Like with sevens, it's so easy to chuck on and it's so fast paced, that's it, 20 minutes it's done. Same with the sort of a T20 cricket style. Do you think because rugby's stuck in that bubble and is blinkered, we're not willing to look at other alternative methods?

rusty (18:46)
Yeah, I think some people are and some people aren't. I don't think it's one or the other, is it? I think lots of people would copy stuff without thinking about it. So we do end up with people who aren't really thinking about the game. And I guess wherever people innovating is something that's like, so if you look at what Northampton Saints have done under Sam Vesty look at what Toulouse have done through their academy system that then permeates into their first team, then...

Carl (18:49)
Yeah, no, it's not one size fits all, no.

rusty (19:17)
Actually, there are people that are moving the game on. So Northampton Saints have been ridiculous this season. I would want to play in their back line. They've got players that play multiple positions. You know, George Furbank's played 10, he's played 15, he's played wing. Dingers has played in both centre positions, like, and moving around a lot. And then you look at Toulouse, and to be fair, I think this is where Saints are getting to as well. So Toulouse have this very strong philosophy throughout their...

Carl (19:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (19:44)
Academy into their first team of how we play the game. Like, La Plesi de Movement is like what they call it, Vilpra stuff where they're just keeping the ball alive and I would want to play in both those teams. I love it. They don't structure stuff in their Academy until the age of 19 and I'm watching 11, 12 year old teams with way more structure than Toulouse Academy would have and Northampton Saints would be the same. So, we're in their Academy stuff there. They'd be the most unstructured Academy team.

Carl (19:49)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (20:14)
in the country. Historically, when I was at the RFU, it was probably Newcastle Falcons and they managed to produce a decent number of young players as a result of that. So I think there's some, but there's also others that are just kind of copy and pasting. Which, yeah, it's probably like I speak to a lot of players and they would be quite frustrated that, you know, there's lots of the players you watch, I think that player's mouth better than I'm currently seeing them play.

Carl (20:30)
Hmm.

Yeah.

rusty (20:44)
and they could have trapped in a cage a little bit.

Carl (20:46)
How do those people still get jobs then? Within the game, if people know that that structure is very limited for players, how are they still recycled within the game consistently? Is it very much still the of the opinion of jobs, jobs for boys that some of them are still getting a run out or do they have other attributes that are of a benefit?

rusty (21:09)
Well, it's not a meritocracy, is it? So they're not picking the best coaches. So when the reality is they don't even advertise lots of the jobs. So, and again, like it's a, it's, it's, you know, who's doing the recruitment. How good are they at doing recruitment? Yeah, I do think we're, I watch lots of coaching and watch lots of, environments have been lucky enough to watch this season, like waratahs Reds,

Carl (21:13)
Hmm.

Okay.

rusty (21:35)
Crusaders, I've inadvertently watched two Leicester Tiger sessions because I was having to be doing some work in the Matty Ellewood Stadium. So I've watched lots of teams and yeah, and I go to lots of environments and often people will say to me, but we're just all doing the same stuff. And I'm thinking, why? Like you haven't got the best players. So, so you could be South Africa and have the best players and the biggest chunks of meat and scrimmage and play the way you

Carl (21:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (22:04)
play that game that way and you'll win a World Cup. Like, I have no idea why anyone would try and out South Africa, South Africa. And people have tried it for years with Saracens, haven't they? They've tried to beat them the Saracens way. Well, they train like that all the time. So I do think the teams that, you know, Quinn's a few years back in Northampton now who are playing a slightly different way, because the reality is when other teams are playing against in Northampton, well,

Carl (22:13)
Hmm.

Yeah.

rusty (22:33)
They don't train, you don't train like Northampton, you probably only practice playing against them for 20 minutes one week at home, 20 minutes one week away, and that's probably the, you know, 40 minutes in a season is probably all you do against them.

Carl (22:42)
Yeah.

Yeah, from, obviously a man from up north, what's happened to Newcastle this season? What's your opinion of that from the outside in or?

rusty (23:00)
Yeah, they're well, they got half the budget of everyone else. They can't work out what they stand for, so they're gone from Dean Richards to Alex Coddling to Steve Diamond. Like those three people wouldn't have said this, I guess this is what I'm saying about recruitment. Like if you understand who you are as an organization, where you want to go, then you recruit based upon that.

Carl (23:03)
Yeah, I understand that.

Hmm.

Hmm.

rusty (23:25)
If they were recruiting based upon that, they wouldn't have recruited three such diverse characters really would be my view. Versus, you know, Northampton states understand how they want to play the game. So they bring Sam Vesty from Worcester and Sam would fit that bill wouldn't they of how they want to play the game. It's interesting, you know, looking at like a Leicester Tigers as well who have, who've got this rich history and this is how we play the game. And then.

Carl (23:32)
Yeah.

Yep.

rusty (23:53)
I'm not sure Dan McKellar is like, yeah, I think there's a misalignment there, if I'm honest. So, and that again, quite common. Bath did it for years, didn't they? Like, you know, Lee's finally got hold of it and understand that they've got some great players who are born in Bath and come through their academy and understand what it means to play for Bath. And they're playing the brand of rugby that probably Bath played just before I joined in the nineties with the Jeremy Guscots and the...

Carl (24:01)
Cheers.

Yeah.

Hmm.

rusty (24:23)
You know, the Mike Cat and so I think, yeah, again, I think some teams are a little bit lost. I would say I think Newcastle is one of them. It'll be interesting to see how they go next season. Obviously, you know, Steve Diamond will recruit again. They'll get rid of some players. He'll recruit players based upon, you know, his view of the game. And then when he goes, if they bring in someone with a different view of the game, it'll be.

He'll have loads of players that won't fit in with how that person wants to play the game. So it is...

Carl (24:52)
Do you think there's not the urgency to try and find an identity for some of these clubs because the Premiership's ring fence, there is no promotion or relegation. The only way they're going to drop out of that league is going bust. So do you think that sort of stifles their sort of future look on the game and in the same breath is that disrespectful to the English Premiership?

rusty (25:19)
Yeah, my view personally is that I am in favor of promotional relegation. I think it's fundamental to sport. And you see what's happened with the URC as an example where you don't have promotion relegation, you're able to have a reasonable amount of mediocrity in a league. And some mismatch games, which we've had this season, haven't we? We've had some mediocrity from probably the bottom two. We've had some ridiculous, you know, a 90 -0...

Carl (25:35)
Mm -hmm.

rusty (25:45)
result is ridiculous, quite frankly. I am massively in favor. I understand that people want to protect their investments and all of that. And we could, you know, as we used to have a parachute payment or we could have a playoff or there are ways to do this, but the reality is that ain't going to happen. So I know they're re negotiating the long form agreement at the moment. The RFU and the clubs and.

Be interested to see where that ends up because they were talking about having Prem 1 and Prem 2, weren't they? And sounds like some of the championship clubs aren't that happy with that.

Carl (26:17)
Hmm.

No, because they're doing a bit of a rebrand around it. It's just sprinkling a bit more glitter onto a dog shit product, to be honest. It's so weak and it's... Obviously, Ealing, they say about the stadium and stuff like that, but as you said earlier, hit the nail on the head, it's down to people protecting their investment rather than opening the door to... Because the thing is, Ealing's never gonna...

rusty (26:27)
Heh.

Carl (26:47)
improve to that level if they don't get the investment from the TV money that's now available. Doncaster obviously got a really good ground, Coventry are all set fairly well set up. Obviously, Cornish Pirates had one hell of a season as well. Is that going to end up being a sacrifice to the championship because they're not able to get to that promised land in that sense? Are they going to say, well, I'm just in the championship? Because I think the Cornish Pirates owners basically turn around and say, it's up.

The club's up for sale, he said, I'm on my exit program. He said, but I can't actually enter into an agreement to sell it to anyone because the RFU still haven't told us about how the Premiership stuff, whether we're ever going to be available. Because if they don't, there is no investment coming basically. So that's the short and long of it really. There's nothing there.

rusty (27:39)
Yeah, having coached in the championship for quite a few years, like being in the original meeting when the RFU said we want the championship to go professional and full time and stadiums and all of that. And actually, what did we end up with? We've actually ended up with some teams like Plymouth who've got a stadium but aren't playing in the championship anymore. Mosley have got a stadium and aren't playing in the championship anymore. Like, yeah, it was, again, I'm none the wiser really. I think that meeting was in about...

I want to say like 2007 or 2008 and I'm not sure we've kind of moved forward from that point. Yeah. And again, like I'm just a massive fan of promotion relegation and suddenly you have some slightly different pictures in the competition. And yeah, as you said, Ealing might get some funding and might be able to increase their stadium. We, I was actually at Rotherham at a time where we got promoted and then they told us, and I think we believed them at the time.

that we didn't get promoted because the toilets weren't big enough at Millmore, the ground. And I think we believed them. And then actually, a year later, some people were like, no, no, no, your owners took some money. And I was like, right, OK, that's weird. But again, at that point, I think rather we were quite happy not being in the Premiership because we just lost every game when we were in the Premiership.

Carl (28:41)
Wow.

Fair enough. And there are teams that will, but some teams, it's the same sort of in the football world as well though. There's teams that are yo -yo clubs that will eventually become a club that can, and being able to play that week in, week out rugby will improve teams eventually. It's just when it finally sticks, there's clubs that are too good for the championship. There's clubs that are not good enough for the Premiership. And it's just, as you said, both in agreement, it's something that's got to happen. It's just clearly.

not what the hierarchy want by the seams of it. So...

rusty (29:31)
Yeah, there's, yeah, I mean, again, and three clubs have gone bust and there's actually lots of really good players playing in the championship at the moment or have had to go apply that made in other countries. So, yeah, there's a, there's definitely an oversupply of good young players coming through my, you know, the England twenties and, you know, the young players coming through, there's some, there's some class players.

Carl (29:55)
Well, that'd be the sort of the perfect ground for them to go and actually say go and play in the championship and stuff and get within amongst teams that know they're going to be fighting. A lot of clubs have obviously got them already tied up those under 20s, which is fine. Get them out there and just get them into a club that's going to generate that winning feeling. Once players know how to win, it becomes easier once they get sort of into a bigger club. Do you agree with that?

rusty (30:23)
Yeah, Fletch actually spoke. One of the things he was thinking about doing when we were at the RFU was having a club in the championship where pretty much you'd get all the twenties to play and you'd coach them. So part of that, again, as an example, so think about when Yorkshire, you know, went bust or whatever, liquidation, whatever it was. But like if the RFU had taken over Yorkshire, you used it to go, okay, we're going to have like...

Carl (30:34)
Okay.

rusty (30:50)
We're going to use this as a club where the 20s play, we're going to use it as a club where national coaches coach and practice and where we can bring in other coaches to develop them as well. I actually thought it was quite a cool idea. Here's a place where the young players are going to get, you know, the World Cup team in four, eight years' time are going to be already playing together and they might get promoted, they might not get promoted, but I quite liked it as a concept.

Carl (31:05)
Yeah.

Well, they learn the good, bad and the ugly, as you say. They know what works for them and that path of playing together, winning, losing, however it ends up, they're either going to be at that level and some of them will go off to their parent club and be able to get first team rugby, etc. But why did that never really get off the ground then? Was it just...

rusty (31:46)
I think it was a concept that Fletch was thinking about, as with the RFU, very few of those creative concepts get off the ground, would be my view. Stuff takes a long time, it has to go through quite a few committees. They're probably not agile enough, that's the reality.

Carl (32:09)
Okay, well, it's, yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's ever going to improve. I think we can keep going over it forever, couldn't we? So hopefully it does at some point. The biggest limitations for most coaches in rugby, what is your opinion of what that limitation is?

rusty (32:27)
I wrote down three things. I was thinking about this. It's a good question. Their own attitude to learning.

their proximity to expertise. So if Wayne Smith lived in Bristol and I could go meet him down at Baker Smith's on White Ladies Road, then I'd probably be a better coach. So again, and don't forget, and again, I don't want to feel like I'm having a go at the RFU but we got rid of a lot of people who were like on the ground working with coaches during COVID. So.

Carl (32:43)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

rusty (33:03)
CRCs and RDOs and all of that stuff. So, and then the third one for me is just the, I guess, just the politics. So I work with lots of, or interact with lots of coaches that are really keen to get better. So they, they have that mindset, bit sorted, but they have to work with people who are kind of stuck in the past a little bit, or we don't do it this way, or they've got to coach you with due respect to anyone that played in the front row.

They're played in the front row and probably sees the game a certain way. So I think, yeah, probably those three things like your own relationship with getting better. I think there's plenty that don't want to. Your ability to go and access expertise. And then, you know, just the general politics that exists in any kind of sport. One of my, my favorite, well not my favorite, the slide that people lean in the most to.

Carl (33:49)
Hmm.

rusty (33:58)
When I show it is one, when I lost my job at the RFU, you're able to kind of get your emails, a subject access request. So, and I can see all the emails that mentioned me that were being sent around by the people above me at the RFU. And it's ridiculous. Like people who just aren't even like, they were just wasting their time looking at like my social media or.

Carl (34:18)
Mm.

rusty (34:25)
thinking about what clothes I might wear to an event or, and the reality is that lots of politics just gets in the way of, you know, from the, when we're talking about the kids, like the kids having a good time and getting better. And when all the stuff we're talking about now, like just the politics of all of the game is like, it's ridiculous, quite frankly.

Carl (34:25)
Ready?

Yeah, I think it distracts a lot of people from the game that we love as well, but people are more sucked into it at certain levels when they should be the one that's able to make that decision to move the game forward, but are more concerned of what somebody else's opinion is of them and how they're probably going to put their own job at risk by putting their head outside the parapet sort of thing as well.

rusty (35:09)
Yeah, I mean, as an example, it was interesting. So he won't mind me talking about this, but, you know, Ryan Davis was attack coach for a period of time at Bath and had a good chat with him. And the reality was he was always going to lose that job or go back to being a skills coach as he is. And I was like, you've got to do it your own way. Cause if you don't, you'll be, you know, you'll be eternally sad about that. So it is very hard to go out there and be yourself in lots of environments.

Carl (35:37)
Yeah.

rusty (35:39)
yeah, it's, yeah. And again, again, I think the other thing I'm it's, it's made me think even more about it's just that, like, where are we innovating? So who is like the coaches that are innovating? We've got a Sam Vesty we've got, you know, a few people out there, but we haven't got people that are really pushing the boundaries of the game. In my opinion. we see a lot of copy and paste stuff.

Carl (36:07)
Yeah, I think a lot of people put like Eddie Jones down as a crackpot when he said about Jack Nowell being able to play in multiple roles and stuff like that. I think there will be a time when players can sort of alternate from the back row to centre. They've got the same attributes that are required within the game. It's just the masses that believe he's a crackpot. Obviously it worked because it turned people off the other issues from the players and the...

A lot of people focused upon him, but when you actually look at it from an innovative way, why is it crackpot? Why can it work? What's that one player that could make that position their own? Which one could flip between? Jack Nowell was obviously an exceptional player. Ben Earl I agree.

rusty (36:54)
I know. I think Ben might've played a bit of time at 12 with England 18s. I played one game at centre for Bath against Newcastle. Twigamala was my opposite number. We didn't win. It was close though. But again, yeah, we did a world's best project after the 2015 World Cup where we, you know, we kind of researched and spoke to the top 45 players in the world and...

Carl (37:11)
Yeah.

rusty (37:24)
They'd all play, they'd all play multiple positions. Theo Dan's a really good example, you know, played centre, moved to seven, moved to two. Like, I almost think like most of those England front rowers, all of them, at an age of 16, 17, were not playing in the front row. Genge eight, I think. Sinckler played 10 with Anastasia Long.

Carl (37:30)
I think he's exceptional.

No.

rusty (37:52)
as Theo Dan playing centre, like those players played multiple positions. Like if they'd been put in at a proper young age, I think you become quite limited in how you play the game and also how you see the game, I guess. So, again, at junior rugby, people should be going like players are going to play at least three different positions. Kids, when you turn up, I want you to choose the three positions you want to play this season at some point. You will learn lots.

Carl (38:05)
Hmm.

rusty (38:20)
Players who played 13 playing at wing understand then what the 13 needs, so just those multiple positions. Ben Smith played, who also played sevens, at times played on the wing, at times played fullback, played a fly half for New Zealand sevens. So, yeah, this will be giving people lots of different experiences to help them be better rugby players.

Carl (38:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I coach an under 16s team out here in Spain as well, so I've kind of just adopted them. So I've become the president of the local rugby club and also now been tagged on to under 16s, under 14s and coach the under eights and the under sixes. For the under 16s, I sort of got to them in a period where they were a little bit lost. Some of the coaches would sort of come towards the end. The lads had kind of lost their little way. And the first session I got involved, I was just like, lads,

I just want to see you play rugby. Just go, we'll go out and on the training park and we'll just play rugby and the rest of it. I can just try and figure out what position you should be playing, where, what, what, what's your positive, what's the negatives and the rest of it will all figure out together. so there was three games left of the season and we literally had to play the top two, we had to play the top team twice. So they were unbeaten in the first game.

We lost the first game because I wasn't able to get to the game. I already had another engagement to go to. We went up to the other game against San Roque second game of the last. We literally dominated throughout. We just made a couple of silly mistakes throughout and they just managed to put more tries on the boards, et cetera. Last game, we went to the top of the table. They were unbeaten in their own backyard and we managed to win 40 -27. The lads were absolutely buzzing. They were like,

You've told us exactly how to play rugby. I said, no, you guys knew how to play rugby. You just had to be put in a direction and the rest of it come together. You all knew how to do it. And then we had a beach tournament, beach sevens tournament. I've just literally been on tour. So we left on Friday. I got back this afternoon. So we had a rugby tour in Alicante and the boys played a sevens beach tournament. We weren't really invited. We gate crashed it and we ended up losing in the final.

in sudden death because the final was 3 all and then it was a sudden deathh penalty try, whatever. Yeah, we lost in the last minute, but literally they were mixing teams to give us a La Vila from down the road which used to be in the Challenge Cup. They sort of merged with another club. They were merging all these clubs to try and take on our lads. Our lads come at absolute weight. They said, yeah, we lost the final, but...

We're just absolutely enjoying it. We're loving the rugby and they can't wait for next season and stuff. So it's, there's not, I was like, they were like, so when are we going to do the drills? When are we going to stand? I was like, lads, just let, we'll just play rugby. The rest of it I'll figure out as we go. And then we'll run through the drills that we need to do at some point. And we started to get into the point and they were just like, there were literally 20, 30 lads turning up for training. And the other parents were like, there's never been this many. Like they've not.

They've not enjoyed their rugby this much just by being able to play with their mates and actually sort of getting out on the pitch and seeing the results come. So like next season is going to be really exciting for us as well. But a lot of people get bogged down in details and They're more worried about those intricacies rather than self -development. The lads have become better in themselves and they've enjoyed their rugby. They've understood their rugby. I've sent...

Lads, go and watch some YouTube clips, go and watch these bits, go and watch these other bits. Understand what I'm saying to you, then try and put it into practice. Some couple of lads would then doing the same thing that I told them to look at on YouTube. I'm like, that's all we need. Self -education, the rest of it's easy.

rusty (42:07)
Yeah, you've hit on a few things there that I would agree with and well done. I mean, one is that it needs to be fun. Otherwise they won't come back. The second thing is I think that coaching is helping people help themselves. So self -directed learning is super important. They're already doing it in other, so the fact that Everton plays FIFA.

definitely helpful in football. The next thing is like build a team, build like a structure, whatever people want to call it, around strengths. Don't just build structure because you're copying what New Zealand did two years ago. So again, I would go, let's have a look, let's play a bit. Let's see who's good at what. How can we put you, where do we want you to touch the ball? How are we going to get you to defend? Because it's going to be very different if, you know, different.

You know, you watch Jack Willis at the weekend, like, well, Jack Willis defends very differently to Russell Earnshaw. So you wouldn't want to put them in the same positions, quite frankly, in the same way that if Inga Twiggamala played 12 and Russell Earnshaw played 12, you would play differently. So I think understanding what people's strengths are and building stuff around that. I would imagine you've got lots of players that have played football, so they'd be pretty skilful anyway. They'd move well. You'd have a reasonable amount of players who can kick a ball.

So I would want to kind of recognize that stuff as well. And then, yeah, the last thing is just how do you create like this team spirit where those are the best teams I've been part of really. So definitely at uni, definitely when I played at Stockton Club Rugby, like we'd been friends for life really. And that for me is the purpose of sport. So it's about connection. It's about, you know, in your situation, it's about being part of your community.

Carl (43:40)
Hmm.

Yeah.

rusty (44:01)
It's probably a place where people can come together. I'm sure the parents are enjoying it as much as the kids. and forming, you know, great connections. yeah, that's how I see the game really. I wouldn't, people talk about detail. I don't know what they mean quite a lot of the time. I think about the game is as principles, that's how Toulouse would coach it. That's how Sam Vesty would coach it. That's how the Hurricanes would coach it. Tack is, we have some principles around how we want to play the game. And.

Carl (44:10)
Yeah.

rusty (44:31)
how we get the ball into the best space and it would then go down to like, okay, how do we use our individuals to do this? So how do we get our best players on the ball? Probably against their worst players quite often. How can we have like change of pace? How can we have multiple threats in attack? What's our attacking kicking game look like? Not just this kicking the ball away nonsense that I see way too much of.

Yeah, there'd be lots of stuff in there I would agree with. It sounds like you've had a good time doing it as well. You got pretty excited about it.

Carl (45:05)
So yeah, loads of the lads as well, they've sort of come to me and said, actually, I want to play this position next season or can you help me with this part of my game? And they're starting to think for themselves as well, which is key. They're enjoying what they're doing, who they're playing with. There's a few lads that are...

rusty (45:05)
Cough

Carl (45:24)
unable to play next year due to the age rulings in Spain as well. So they play in two years, so it's beyond the 16s, but they can't be 16 before the start of the season. So if any lad, because the season starts in maybe mid September, lads that are born at the start of September then are excluded from that age group, even though in the same year group is all the lads that are still playing. So some, it's really odd, but some of them are going to stay on and help coach.

I said, I don't want to, we don't want to lose your part of the group because they all go to school together. They all hang out, et cetera. I said, come and coach, come and keep part of the game, come and understand it, see what you can do. You can get involved in the game. You can still keep in touch because hopefully we haven't got seniors or an under 18. So that's my next mission is to try and add that into the club as well. So there's a path for the lads that are staying around to carry on within the club as well and push that forward. So it's a lot of the lads are.

enjoyed it. The parents keep messaging, dropping messages saying, Carl, the kids are absolutely loving it. Thank you so much for everything you've done. I was like, it's not me, it's them. They're enjoying their rugby again. And that's the biggest point. If they don't enjoy it, the rest of it, you don't, you could put any top class coach in there and they won't get the response out of the boys if they don't want to be there.

rusty (46:43)
Yeah, I love that. I love that the boys are now coming to you asking questions and wanting to get better. That is coaching in my opinion. And yeah, well done. You've sounds like you've, yeah, you've gone over there and taken over as chairman. Sounds like you've got a lot on your plate.

Carl (46:49)
Yeah.

God, yeah, the missus was like, are we not busy enough? I was like, nah, clearly not. So, if you were able to create the ultimate coach, whether that was in rugby or in life, however you want to adapt it, what would be the best attributes to put as part as that coach?

rusty (47:02)
Yeah.

Carl (47:21)
and who in the current game is best at each of those attributes that you've come across.

rusty (47:26)
I've got a few, so I'm going to reel off some stuff. So, noticing super important coaching skill, like without it, you've got nothing. So, you know, where, where are you standing? What are you noticing? a bit like you said, they're like, I'm going to let you get playing and then I'm going to notice stuff and I'm going to see like what people are good at. And then we're probably, Aidan McNulty he's over at Munster at the moment did.

remarkable stuff in Newcastle Falcons Academy and then with Irish Women's Sevens getting them to the Olympics. So he would be noticing. Next one is simplifying. I see a lot of coaches having some really long huddles. John Fletcher is the best simplifier I know. Got lots of little rules that are really helpful. You know, if people take the ball standing still, it's a turnover, then suddenly they're able to do depth. I put kindness and...

Probably because one of my litmus tests is, sorry, my litmus test is would I want that person to coach my kids? And kindness is super important. And I've got kind of two sides to this coin. So kindness, Peter Walton and Anastasia Long are both two of the kindest coaches I know, but also having really hard conversations is kind and telling people when you need to tell them stuff rather than.

admiring the problem, which sorts of coaches do. They go, our car's not very good at this. cool. Have you told him? no, I haven't told him. yeah. So, so Clarkie is with the hurricanes is probably the best at the hard conversation stuff. And then, and then I just put like, environment. So Sarah Kelleher hockey, she's with Irish hockey now was with, with the nags. It was just awesome and creating a real good environment.

Carl (49:01)
Yeah, I don't know how to say it. Yeah, that's the...

rusty (49:22)
a really good storyteller, amazing with the girls and then actually wanted to add, I'm on a WhatsApp group, it's called the 10th Man Group and it's loads of coaches from around the country, community game coaches who are like sharing ideas and problems and fears and hopes and all that stuff. And there's two guys on there, there's Nick Wilkinson and James Clark. And honestly, I've never met people who love creating games as much as those two do.

Carl (49:33)
Yep.

rusty (49:51)
So if I was going to have a couple of games masters, it would be those two. I did a camp once at Molesford and they both came and I let you, you know, the young kids that I'm not that good at coaching. I could probably do 10 minutes, but then my, honestly, she's given it a work going clock and they're off like job done and just got so many like, yeah. And he's got like, well, he's got loads of names for his games. Like he plays tutti frutti and I, what's that? Like.

Carl (50:04)
Yeah.

rusty (50:20)
Just loves it. So I guess those are some of the skills I think about. which again, just shows like the other thing is that coaching is really hard. So to do all that stuff, to notice, to simplify, to be playful, to be kind, to be able to create a great environment, to have good practices. Like it's hard, eh? Like, and especially if you're like a, a parent helper who's been persuaded to come over the fence and you used to play and.

Carl (50:31)
Hmm.

Yeah.

rusty (50:48)
You know, you were coached slightly differently then of course you go back to how you were coached. So that's a guess why I get a bit frustrated that the RFU would get rid of people on the ground because those people are like trying to do the best they can to keep our game alive during an existential crisis. And we need to support them as much as possible.

Carl (51:10)
I completely agree. It's very hard, but it's also very easy because it's more rewarding when you see the actual feedback from the players and from the age group. It's when the coaches kind of get stuck in that bubble, as you said, they don't look at them, they think, hold on, we're not getting any results. There's no improvement. It must be down to the players. I've just got to get new players. Sometimes you've just got to stay out of it. There was...

A lot of the lads were kind of just lost to the point because as you said, they were getting brought into long huddles. There was a lot of talking. There was a lot of standing around. That's the easiest way to lose attention for under 14s, under 16s because they've got the attention span of about three and a half seconds. And it's very much go play rugby, don't drop the ball. So I've started trying to bring in little bits as well. So after the game, a couple of times they'd left bits untidy. So they got the riot act that got resolved.

and then they started leaving stuff unattended. So that on the coach on the way back started getting put up for auction. So the lads were then trying to stitch each other up and just little things like that that brought that environment piece back together with them as well. And they love it. So they're now running around trying to stitch each other up. So I always left this here, so it's up for auction. I'm like, well, no, because you've now tucked him up, you've got to pay a fine. They're like, I can't. So next season, one of them's going to be the allocated fines master and stuff like that. And they're like buzzing.

So it's just great to see the kids in the game, they grow and enjoy it as well. And they've got a real belief back as well. And I think that's the easiest bit of coaching. When you see the response and you see those little bits back and the lads are together and everything, it makes everything easy. It's just some people make it a lot harder than it needs to be.

rusty (53:06)
Yeah. And you're like really close to impact with coaching. That's one of the cool things, isn't it? Like you actually see it, feel it, touch it, hear it from kids and parents, like regularly. so that's the cool thing. Like that's, that's why I love it so much. That's why, as I said, that that's why the nurses have accepted terrible pay for so many years is because they are literally close to impact. And.

Carl (53:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (53:35)
by doing a job that they truly believe in and aligns with their values. And the same with coaches. If you truly want to help people get better and help people help themselves, then you can go and do that. You can go and hang on the picture of people and they'll get better and you'll get some endorphins released in your body and you'll want to come back next week. That's not to say it isn't sometimes really frustrating and challenging. All of those things, it's a bit like being a...

Carl (53:58)
yeah, yeah.

rusty (54:04)
father isn't it really like you know you see all the cool stuff and then every so often you get derailed.

Carl (54:05)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you just stand there and think, how, how, why have you done that? Everything else you do is amazing, but why? Just how? And then you just have to just like, okay, right, they're only kids, we'll move on.

rusty (54:23)
Yeah, that's why, and for me, that's why co -coaching is so important. Like having a good coaching team that supports each other, that are helping each other gets better, that's able to, you know, like some kids might not want to come up and speak to Rusty, but they might want to come up and speak to Carl. They might have a better relationship. So that kind of dynamic of co -coaching is super important.

Carl (54:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

In respect to when you've gone into teams, obviously you've gone and done a little bit of consultancy around different sorts of sports and different coaching setups, which was the most receptive to your advice and who were the worst.

rusty (55:04)
Well, look, again, I guess my job is to, as my daughter's not quite sure what I do. She thinks I'm Chandler Bing.

my job is to kind of maybe like, you know, raise people's awareness of stuff they're doing well, maybe like notice some stuff that might make a difference and then it's up to them really, like they've got to choose to do their own learning. The reality now is that I...

Carl (55:26)
Mm.

rusty (55:32)
People come to me, so the doors open. It's a bit like the players come to you and go, no, Carl, can you help me with this? So it's definitely an easier position to be in. That's not to say it's always playing sailing. I will generally, and so the story, so when I first started working with New Zealand Sevens, I basically, they said, would you do it? Would you tell us how you beat us? So I did. They then said, would you do a workshop? I said, yep. On one condition that as a result of the workshop, all the coaches try.

Carl (55:34)
Yeah.

rusty (56:01)
an experiment for a month, and then you get feedback from the players, but you don't tell the players what you're doing. And so them like doing something for months around co -coaching around coaching individuals around some of the game stuff, and then getting amazing feedback from the players, probably convinced them. when I did a piece of work with Rangers at the start, I was really like, do you want my medium or spicy? And the feedback. And when you go in as an independent, people generally say spicy.

they're paying you to come in. They probably don't want you to go away and only tell them the mild stuff. So, I guess, and I think that helps. So being independent, definitely in other sports, it's almost easier out of your own sports because people don't see you as a threat. Really. I'm not going to take over someone's job in a football club.

Carl (56:55)
Yeah.

rusty (56:57)
They might see it as a threat rugby, but really I don't want anyone's job. I'm very happy doing my own job, quite frankly. so yeah, I get to work with lots of people again, obviously, Clarkie I've worked with in New Zealand and now he's with the hurricanes. So that would indicate that he's pretty open to it. I've loved the fact that the other coaches have been so spent a couple of weeks with them in December and Jan. and,

Carl (57:18)
Yeah.

rusty (57:22)
just really open to like trying stuff and experimenting and setting challenges for each other and going after them, which again, like fuels all my biases. We still have had a really good one actually the other day. We've had a couple where it's been challenging. Me and Fletch started doing some work with the school. We agreed on this piece of work. And after the first session, we both were like, they don't want to do this, do they? And so...

Carl (57:40)
Okay.

rusty (57:50)
We rang them and we just said, look, I'm really sorry. we really enjoyed the day, but we don't think you're ready for this. And they were like, no, no, no, we're ready for this. And we're like, well, you're not really. So anyway, so we didn't do it. And then actually about six months later, they came back to us and said, we're ready now. We weren't ready then you were right. So I guess that was an interesting one. And then just did a piece of work with a football club and we did a priming, online session. And one of the coaches who, who's like.

Carl (57:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (58:20)
He's a cool coach. He's in his, he's in his sixties and he was like, we were on this zoom and he was like quizzing me and felt quite cynical. And I was like, this is going to be hard work. And anyway, so then we did the session on the evening and it was cool. It was great fun. And then we did like a reflection session. So we caught up later and anyway, this coach just said, look, can I share my screen? And she had a few things and he just went, we're doing it all wrong. Aren't we? It's like.

Carl (58:29)
Hehehehe

Hmm.

rusty (58:49)
If we do the same as everyone else, whoever has the best players at the start is going to have the best players at the end. So it's like, why are we doing the same as everyone else? And it was just like this hallelujah moment. I loved it.

Carl (58:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, like every light bulb was going on, that was it. He was...

rusty (59:06)
Yeah. So I guess, and those are the ones that excite me really when, you know, you think, this person's quite cynical or they're not quite sure, you know, and then, and then they go, okay, this, this could make a, this could make a difference to the kids. Cause that's ultimately what I'm interested in is actually like, as you described, like your kids having an awesome time. That's, that's of course, I want you to have an awesome time coaching them as well, but they are the most important thing.

Carl (59:33)
100%. with the receptiveness as well, is there sort of a...

Nationality, like with English, being English, we're fairly cynical. Well, I know I am in most parts of my life, or I have been, but I understand the importance of self -development as well. I think as a nation, do you think we're predominantly cynical enough that we don't look at ourselves? A lot of people blame everyone else.

rusty (1:00:04)
Yeah, I've had a couple of other good hallelujah moments to work with a business and one of the ladies the other day just went, I get it. It all starts with self -awareness. I was like, yee -haw. Yeah, look, I'm really lucky. So I generally get to hang out with people that want to get better. And I'm really serious about it and really serious about creating amazing experiences for...

Carl (1:00:12)
Hehehe

Yeah.

Yep.

rusty (1:00:33)
either the kids or the grownups that they're working with and they want to be part of good environments. So I'm very, very lucky really. I'm probably got a slightly biased view of the world. That said, when I worked at the RFU, it wasn't always like that. So at that point, you're not, people aren't coming to you. You're almost sometimes being forced on with, you know, other. So I did, I won't mention the club, but I did a day with one of the clubs and.

Just had coaches who were just like, yeah, but the players are this and the players can't do this. And there's no leadership anymore in these young players. And again, just really simple stuff like putting people in boxes, admiring the problem. Like just stuff that was doing my head in, if I'm honest. And one of those coaches is no longer in a job, thank God. And the other one is just about still coaching, but yeah, like.

Carl (1:01:19)
Yeah.

Mm.

rusty (1:01:31)
The biggest effect size in education is good teachers. The biggest effect size in rugby is good coaches. Like it's not, you know, I don't know what your facilities look like or your, you know, your changing rooms or anything like that. But the thing that's going to unite those kids and help them get better and realize their potential is, is you quite frankly. So it's such a.

Carl (1:01:35)
Hmm.

Hmm.

rusty (1:01:59)
important role with young people. Like we've all had, I'm sure you've been the same as me, like I've had coaches when I was younger that have completely inspired me to play sport.

I guess that's what you're trying to achieve now at your club, isn't it?

Carl (1:02:11)
Yeah, definitely. It's the same in business as well. I've been in business with people and there's ones that have inspired me, there's ones that have also probably limited certain bits and some people are just that way inclined and you have to learn to navigate that as quick as possible I think as well in life as well as in sport. But it's the ones that are not willing to.

self -aware as you say are the ones that limit probably a lot of other people around as well. I've got, I've always been very, very to the point. I'll tell people what I think they need to do better to improve themselves. Not everyone takes that as a positive because not everyone wants to be as aware as I probably am, but the others that have embraced it, they can go wherever they want. It's up to them then. It's just some people.

are too scared to tell people the truth as well to a certain extent because I fully understand feelings and stuff like that. But some people need to have that little conversation. Actually, if you do this, you can actually make your life a lot easier or your role a lot easier in what you do. But I think people aren't willing to have those hard conversations in life anymore.

rusty (1:03:28)
Yeah, as I said, Clark E and Joe and I are both very good at the hard conversations. My reality is I work with people who want to get better. Pure and simple. I have options around who I work with and actions are super important to me and anyone that I'm hanging out with is generally one to get better. So I'm very, very lucky.

Carl (1:03:52)
Yeah, definitely. So, gonna go back full circle now to, obviously you managed to play for the bar bearings as well, which I don't think was dropped in at the start for all those.

rusty (1:04:02)
I did, I played in, we went on tour to, we played Germany, in Germany. I played with some people, so like Peter Stringer played, Derwin Jones, Scott Hastings, he was a real good team. However, we just got on the lash for like four days. And that was probably my, I was good at drinking. And Mickey Steele Bodger, RIP, found me under the table in a beer festival hiding from him.

Carl (1:04:08)
Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

rusty (1:04:31)
and told me that if I didn't leave immediately, I wouldn't play for the Barbarians again. And I didn't play for the Barbarians again.

Carl (1:04:38)
So that leads on to who was the best player you ever played with or played against?

rusty (1:04:46)
Well, I played with some good players. Actually, it was good for me to think about this. So go back to uni, I played with Steve Surridge, he played for the All Blacks. He was the best defender I ever played with. He was like a judo champion in New Zealand and played back row with me. I also played with Dan Lyle at Bath who was doing stuff that no other player could do. He caught her, he was chasing a 22 drop out and he caught it one handed.

So full stretch in the air, one handed catch and kept running, which is quite frankly ridiculous. But I also played with Ian Bolshaw who turned up at Bath and said, just give me the ball and I'll score tries. You know, it was an 18, 19 year old who was, I guess the closest Englanders had to like Christian Cullen, who is one of my favorite players. So I guess I hung out with some pretty good players. And then the two I'd thought about that I played against and...

Carl (1:05:27)
Yeah.

rusty (1:05:43)
Again, in 99, before I got injured, they picked a team, they picked a North and a South team from the premiership to play against England in the World Cup warmups. And I was picked in the South team. And the back row was due to be me, Francois Pienaar and Zin Zandbroek. So I got to play against those two guys. And the other guy I got to play against was Josh Kronfeldt. So I played back row. And obviously, if you were to go...

Zinzane Brook was my hero really as a youngster, like his ability, he was a skillful wasn't he? And then, yeah, then seeing Josh Kronfeld who in, you know, in the World Cup was just ridiculous. And then he obviously came over to Leicester and got to play against him. So yeah, I was just guest played with and against him. Cause again, I was at the end of the bath, like, played with Jeremy Guscott you know, Phil deGlanville, Steve Jomo coach both their kids.

Carl (1:06:13)
Yeah.

rusty (1:06:40)
John Slydon coached this Victor Bogu like just played with some legends really. Yeah, so yeah, I guess a journeyman who managed to hang out with some decent players as well.

Carl (1:06:53)
Yes, that's phenomenal. So do you still keep in touch with him or do you just, that was that? You've...

rusty (1:07:01)
Yeah, I keep in touch with a fair few to be honest, obviously lived with a, you know, live with Mike Tindall for a bit, live with Andy Long, speak to Matt Perry quite a bit as well. And yeah, we got a bath, old boys group. And to be fair to bath, they're pretty good at the alumni stuff and people getting together. I missed a couple of them, but obviously we, we won the European cup, what was 25 years ago last year. But again,

Carl (1:07:03)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

rusty (1:07:29)
I missed a couple of the reunions, but we generally get together a reasonable amount, which is pretty cool as well. Yeah, and I'm a very lucky journeyman.

Carl (1:07:40)
Yeah, what an amazing name list there as well. That's pretty impressive. I think we could carry on for days, Rusty, to be honest. But thank you so much for your time. It's been phenomenal to get you on the pod. And I'm sure hopefully further down the line, once the pods gathered a bit more pace, we can get you back on at some point as well.

rusty (1:08:03)
Yeah, no, thanks for having me on. They do gather pace. I look at our timeline of the Magic Academy and it takes a little bit to take off where then you start getting some decent numbers of listens.

Carl (1:08:09)
Yeah.

Well, starting to get big bookings, got you on board as well, so I'm sure that's that Spikes gonna come straight up after this one.

rusty (1:08:21)
Yeah, no, thanks so much. I appreciate you having me on

Carl (1:08:24)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues. So in today's episode, we discussed Rusty's Rugby journey from winning the European Cup and playing for the Bar -Bars.

to being a coaching wizard trying to break the norms of coaching methods in the game and in other sports. In next week's pod, as we mentioned the other week, we are shining a light into the game of rugby in India. We have On From Rugby India, where we discuss his involvement within their current setup and the development of rugby in India. They're huge ambitions in India for rugby, and we're hoping to see some of that firsthand soon.

So can't wait to get that one out for everyone to see and hear.

Once again, a huge thank you to you all for tuning in. Thank you and goodbye.