Episode 9 - The Mark Witcher Interview - One Club player supporting the growth of Womens Rugby!

Summary

Mark Witcher, assistant coach at Portsmouth Rugby Club, shares his rugby journey and experiences coaching at Portsmouth and Hampshire. He played for Portsmouth Rugby Club throughout his career and had the opportunity to captain the twos and the vets. Mark mentions players he played with who went on to make it, including Oscar Wingham and Brendan Tracy. He also talks about players who didn't make it but should have, such as Matt Brano and Rich Herring. Mark also discusses his coaching experience and highlights Abby Harding as a standout player he coached at Portsmouth. During the conversation, Mark Witcher and Carl discuss the progression of women's rugby during Mark's tenure as a coach. They mention the impact of televised games, initiatives like 'This Girl Can' and the Inner Warrior series, and the accessibility of women's rugby at the local level. They also touch on the challenges faced by women's rugby in terms of funding and opportunities for players to progress to higher levels. They discuss the need for a more open and inclusive approach in the sport, allowing for promotion and relegation and providing pathways for players who may not fit into the traditional academy system. They also highlight the importance of attracting and retaining top talent in order to compete with other nations. The conversation covers various topics related to rugby, including the promotion and marketing of the sport, the potential for the women's game to become a cash cow for the RFU, the challenges faced by grassroots clubs like Portsmouth Rugby Club, and the importance of sharing knowledge and supporting each other within the rugby community.

Transcript

Carl (00:11)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep shining a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl. Thanks for joining us on the next instalment of the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod and keep in touch with us on our social media platforms. We have some amazing guests lined up in the coming weeks and we really don't want you to miss out on them. It was another great weekend of rugby.

There was the spectacle of the Prem final, which didn't disappoint on the pitch as always. The URC quarter finals were in full swing, setting up some pretty tasty semi -finals between the Bulls and Leinster and then Munster host Glasgow. In the Rugby Asia Championship, Malaysia hosted Hong Kong China, but suffered a 70 .6 defeat to a dominant Hong Kong China side. UAE hosted South Korea this weekend.

and pulled off another shock in the Rugby Asia Championship, with South Korea being their own downfall in losing in 36 -32 UAE win. The PWR semifinals put on another spectacle, with a nice local derby being set up for the final between Gloucester, Hartbury and Bristol. Rugby Europe Championship Sevens tournaments were in full swing this weekend. We started off

in Croatia with some amazing results and with the women's tournament being won by Poland after beating France in the final. The men's tournament ended with France beating Ireland. Over in Belgrade, the Rugby Europe Conference One division. It was another sevens tournament with Norway beating Denmark in the final.

in the men's final and in the women's Moldova won 24 -10 over Slovakia. Don't forget to catch up on these tournaments on rugbyeurope .tv and the Rugby Asia Championship games are still on YouTube so they're well worth a watch. This weekend coming up we've got another great weekend of rugby. We'll be popping on down to the Spain women's against

Canada, which is down at La Vila in near Alicante. So we'll be heading down there to watch the game and get some footage up on our socials, show how a Spanish international game goes about. The Seven Circuit continues for Rugby Europe with their Conference 2 division being played in Bar in Montenegro. Rugby Europe Trophy tournament will be being played in Zagreb in Croatia this weekend too.

super rugby semi -finals will also be taking place with the Blues against the Brumbies and the Hurricanes against the Chiefs. So two great games there to start your weekend off if you're a nice early bird. However, we now move on to this week's podcast. So this week's podcast, we've got a great interview from Mark Witcher, who was a one club man over at Portsmouth Rugby Club. He played throughout the...

senior set up all the way through. He managed to then move into coaching and was a coach for the Portsmouth Valkyries women's team who helped them put them on a massive trajectory with an unbeaten season thrown in the mix. He then become head coach of Hampshire women's alongside he is still a huge advocate for the game. He's moved back into the men's game at the minute as an assistant coach at Portsmouth, but his passion for the women's game.

can still be seen and heard throughout this interview. So this one did really go on for hours. I know I keep saying it, but this one pretty much did. Mark's a great guest, full of knowledge, full of rugby passion. It was an absolute blast. I probably spent more time editing this one down, but what a guest, what a pod. Take a listen, make sure you stick through to the end, because it's a belter

Carl (04:18)
well, we've got Mark Witcher on. The man, the myth, the legend of rugby within the women's game in Portsmouth and Hampshire. Obviously now assistant coach over at Portsmouth Rugby Club, is that correct, with the men's? From what I know and what I understand of where you've been and what we've got, we've got a really good pod, really good pod to listen to today, mate. So thank you so much for your time. Just...

MARK WITCHER (04:32)
Yeah,

Carl (04:44)
Great to get you on. We'll start off with your rugby journey, mate, if you're willing to sort of have a little run through, clue everyone in of what you've done, where you've been, and then we can start going through the usual questions.

MARK WITCHER (04:54)
Yeah, no, no, of course. It's quite easy for me because one club man and all those cliches, but I honestly take it right back to under 14s. I went to a naval boarding school. So if anyone from the Portsmouth Area knows Holbrook, then they'll know that trip up to there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, just south of Ipswich, so the Royal Hospital School. It was either cross -country or rugby up there for me. So...

Carl (05:00)
Yeah.

That's an Ipswich. Is that the Ipswich one?

MARK WITCHER (05:22)
Started that, got back there, Mum and Dad lived in Cosham and literally opened the Yellow Pages and Portsmouth Rugby Club was the nearest because I had to get my bike to get there and I kind of never looked back and played right through the club in ones and was lucky enough to captain the twos and the vets and I've been there all my life and a few years back, same as a lot of guys, really quick text message with, can you come and help out? There's a coach needs a spare pair of hands and that.

Carl (05:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (05:50)
turned up one night at the Valkyries and that's seven, eight years ago and was there for six years. And, you know, we had a really good, really good time. And then we were lucky enough as well that got involved with Hampshire as the assistant coach and then was involved as head coach as well. And now just as I say, back with the men for the last year as assistant coach and hopefully pushing through to this season as well.

Carl (06:19)
Yeah, brilliant.

so obviously Portsmouth, well established club in the local area, got a really decent club house, got fairly easy access to it as well and I've teed yourself up with a bit of a question a bit later on about it. The ones, what division are they sort of battling in around now? Because they're sort of a fairly sturdy team within that division now.

MARK WITCHER (06:42)
Yeah, I mean, I think they've all been rejigged and it wouldn't surprise me if they're rejigged again, but I think it's counties one they call it now. So, you know, there's still a few recognisable teams in there that we've been coming up against for quite a few seasons and that where I think we finished fifth this season. So we're well established in that league and there was some really close, I sort of looked at the ones and the twos this year and actually, apart from a couple of sort of runaway.

Carl (06:47)
Yeah. Bye.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (07:09)
runaway winners if you like or runaway results. A lot of the results are fairly close which shows that the leagues are kind of about right. You know you weren't getting lots and lots of silly results.

Carl (07:20)
Yeah, that was the same division as Peetersfield, wasn't it? So Peetersfield just won that league from you guys. Obviously they've done a big push this season to get out of that league and dominated as well, to be fair to them, Havant they? So they've done well. Obviously we had Liam on the pod the other week and they've got big plans down at Peetersfield. They've got a really good set up as well. Portsmouth have got that platform. They've got three or four teams.

MARK WITCHER (07:24)
Yeah.

Carl (07:47)
still because when I was back over there they had a fourth team rocking around as and when and no.

MARK WITCHER (07:50)
Yeah, no, it's one, they're putting three teams out. I would say that the third team is the one that kind of, we're putting a lot of effort in at the moment because they're in a league. The feedback is that those lads want more rugby. And that's, you know, that's what we've got to give them. The ones and twos is kind of like set. Their leagues are pretty set. You know, the third team league, I think they're in county three, I think.

Carl (07:57)
Okay.

MARK WITCHER (08:17)
maybe in four. The games don't come as thick and fast and that's something we've got to look at this season really for player retention. If they're not playing then they find other things to do at the weekend, don't they? But as you said...

Carl (08:17)
Yep.

it and then you've obviously got a really really good vets team as well over there at Portsmouth.

MARK WITCHER (08:33)
Yeah, and again, it's cyclical, you know. So I was lucky that when I skipped it, we'd all kind of just come out of the ones and twos, still keen for rugby. Our bodies are still fit and our minds are still capable. And it was a pleasure. We even noticed that we were playing against sides that were getting quicker than us and the rugby was getting harder again. But it's...

Carl (08:47)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (08:58)
We're just sort of filling that void again now. So the younger vets, if you like, are coming through again and 35, yeah, over 35. So it's, you know, you look at a great final issue with Haventon Toss and it's kind of like they've stayed together and they've got their younger vets coming through and that way then it's, you know, not only is it good, it's one of the best supported sides within the club from us and other teams as well. But it's important because...

Carl (09:04)
what's the cutoff is it 36 or 35?

MARK WITCHER (09:27)
people don't want to walk away and don't want to give up rugby.

Carl (09:30)
No, not at all. And then obviously the Valkyries go in great guns, done really well, obviously, since you stepped aside still as well. So great platform there. What's the youth system like over at Portsmouth? I Havant really been involved. Is there much of a Tots and Colts system going through or?

MARK WITCHER (09:47)
Yeah, there is. I just saw a message actually a few days ago. I think they take them from under fours, which was younger than I thought it was, and it goes right through. And actually, that's something that we've identified this year that senior coaches are going to pick them up from a slightly younger age and maybe transition coach is kind of like a bit of a buzz around the RFU if you're supposed. But make that link a little bit tighter between the juniors and seniors.

Carl (09:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (10:14)
But yeah, the actual Mini and Junior set up is really, really well represented, well supported. I think they found from COVID actually staggering the times on a Sunday, gave them more pitch allocation and that's allowed them to probably get more people down there. And it's just brilliant. I mean, I've always admired all the local clubs. Their Junior setups have all seemed pretty good and it's given me an opportunity to look at ours. So yeah, no, it's definitely, it's thriving.

Carl (10:42)
Yeah, because I was speaking to a Farnham player on the pod that's coming out Friday, where the Nags Ed Birch is on. He said they've got 1 ,000 kids in the youth set up at Farnham, which is unreal. That is a lot of kids. They've got them through mini youth as well. So apparently they've got them in two and three year olds. As long as they can bumble around and pick a ball up, they've got a set up.

MARK WITCHER (10:54)
I'm ready.

It's a beast. I don't know how you manage that.

Carl (11:10)
ready to bring them through, it's just unreal. That's just phenomenal.

MARK WITCHER (11:12)
Brilliant. Yeah, and I think that just, I think it captures everybody. If you've got a, you know, if you've got a six or seven year old player and they've got a two or three year old brother or sister and now they can be involved, you know, that's win -win. The parents, you know, the parents can have them both down there. And I mean, I know, I know a couple of guys that used to play at Farnham and I was, I saw their set up for the women's set up as well. And yeah, they're definitely another club that are going great guns. I mean, their catchment era is slightly different.

Carl (11:23)
Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (11:38)
again, but you've got to push it, you've got to push yourself to make it work. You can't expect them to come to you. So that's brilliant to hear that.

Carl (11:47)
So as you said in your rugby journey, obviously rocking around in the ones and twos as the one club man for Portsmouth, who did you play with that went on to make it and was it obvious?

MARK WITCHER (12:01)
yeah. I mean, one of them was, was a long, long time ago and it was obvious he was a different class. There's a guy called Oscar Wingham and I had sort of dig deep back into the archives a little bit. And he went to Leicester. This is, you know, pre professional era and, absolute superstar and open side. And the best accolade I can give you about him is that the only reason he didn't start for Leicester was that Neil back was the open side for them. And that's, you know, I,

Carl (12:12)
Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

 big shoes to try and move around unless he's got crocked

MARK WITCHER (12:30)
 And you know, I didn't know, so Oscar was in, I think, my last years of colts going on, but I remember how good he was. But a bit sort of, and then, like Brendan Tracy, he were like a little shout out. I mean, he went to Clifton. I think that, you know, because we were kind of like pre, we sort of just pre -pro era, I suppose,

Carl (12:41)
Right

it out.

MARK WITCHER (12:56)
it's that kind of like, other things got in the way, I suppose, you know, ambition itself wasn't enough. So yeah, you know, Brendan, absolutely. But there was a couple of guys that I did, I played with that were a couple of Kiwi boys and they come over and a guy called Brad Christensen, I was skippering the twos at the time. And it's only a little story that I did, I'd say to him. So we had this chat and I was told that this 24, 25 year old Kiwi was coming over, hoping to play number eight for the ones.

But he's going to come and play for Pompey twos against Bognor twos two that day. So I'll pick him up. And he's tall, he's athletic, he's handsome, he's everything. I wish I was. And we played this game and it's just one of these days where everybody gets their hands on the ball. They're eight picking up and Brad's just folding them up every time. I'll make just stop. I'm just said to Brad, you got to stop doing it. And I said to them, eight you just got to stop doing this. He's going to do it for fun. And...

Carl (13:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (13:52)
He mentioned in the way about what level you played at in New Zealand then and it's kind of like I think it might change now But it's kind of like it's called like the intermediate cup He's like the NPC cup and it was one step away from being selected for the super 12 I think it was then and you know, this guy was a superstar even a guy called Ben Stuart it was the other guy's center and they were just They were just folding. You know, it really brought Pompey on at the time we were lucky enough to play with him, you know, and I don't think they're playing anymore, but that was

Carl (14:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

amazing.

MARK WITCHER (14:21)
Yeah, those guys, Brendan Oscar was my eras and as I say, Neil Back stopped Oscar. That is only downside.

Carl (14:31)
Imagine that, turning up at Bognor 2s, which is a little trip anyway, innit? And then you've got two Kiwi ringers that are just folding people up like deck chairs.

MARK WITCHER (14:38)
 like, look, you know, it's a local side, you know, Bognor dirty is the wrong word, you know, they're a bit handy, you know, we always have a little bit of a game, bit of a fun with them and he bought, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and it's either that or their pitches or their pitches were always garbage in it, but I meant that, you know, in an endearing way and yeah, this guy turned out to change rooms you can imagine, you know, and it's just.

Carl (14:46)
Yeah, they love a scrap, don't they, Bogner? They're always game.

Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (15:04)
It was funny, but it was, we'd scored a try, I promise you, from our five meter line to their try line, everybody touch ball. It was like, I want to be part of his gang. You know, it was just, it was fun. But do you know what? They stayed over for a couple of years and they threw themselves into that club. You know, they were every social, they were, you know, it was brilliant. It was everything about, you know, you get the tourist, it's changed, I guess a little bit now, but you get these lads coming over just for a couple of.

Carl (15:14)
Wow. Wow. Haha.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (15:33)
Couple of years on a visa, having a bit of a laugh, seeing a bit of rugby elsewhere. They could have gone higher up and I don't know, maybe we just replied to their emails at the right time, but there was no money, helped him out with digs and push him in the right direction of the job. But it was, yeah, it was funny to see. And it made it a bit easier for me as an older, less wiser one, you know, but yeah, it's good fun.

Carl (15:35)
Yeah.

Did he finally make it into the ones or did you just tell everyone he was dog shit to keep him around in the twos?

MARK WITCHER (16:05)
kept the numbers myself. That was it. It wasn't, yeah, strike mate. And you know what, that was it. Yeah, that was it. That was the absolute liberty. Well, that was the absolute liberty. Yeah, him and Ben, they were both here at the same time, which, you know, people that are still old enough that were still at the club, you know, talk about them fondly, because it was just, they seem to sometimes have a competition with each other, just about like who could hit the hardest. And then you're like, I'll never go like that. And you know, somebody else.

Carl (16:07)
That's it. Nah, never turned up. Never turned up was shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (16:34)
It was good, it was good times. As I say, you don't get people like that come through all the time. They're not just in it for themselves, but they were a class. And all the time, we're just like, yeah, I know that a couple of national two clubs had a little sniff on them after their first year. And we're kind of like, yeah, you don't want to go there, mate. It's horrible in the winter. Just stay on the sunny South Coast kind of thing.

Carl (16:56)
Yeah.

then as you said, they must have brought everyone else's level up as well, because they saw them doing it. Like, actually I wanna have a go, see if I can do that. And it's great to see.

MARK WITCHER (17:08)
I think it just comes naturally for them as well. It's just kind of like, or fun, you know, like, I'm just playing for fun, let's have a bit of fun. And we weren't at their level. I think we might have been London 1 or 2 then, so it's a couple of leagues higher than we are now. But it was just, they were playing for fun and they were just good, you know, which made it a bit easier for them.

Carl (17:25)
Yeah.

So next one then, who did you play with that didn't go on to make it but should have? And if there's a good story around it, let's try and fluff it up a little bit.

MARK WITCHER (17:41)
so this is the hardest one because how many people do I offend all in one go? there's no real, there's no like, yeah, there's no real stories about why they didn't or anything. Maybe it was quite bland, but like, I mean, the person I played with that I thought was the most naturally gifted player, he was Welsh, that was his only downside, was a guy called Matt Brano who,

Carl (17:46)
Fuck it, let's push them all under the bus. Let's go.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (18:04)
Hopefully he's known around the county without a doubt. And when I was lucky enough to play with him the first time around, well, I can tell you the story about how he kept me out of the side, but just naturally gifted, you know, he just glided and then stepped when he wanted to. Went to Havant who were probably just pushing above Portsmouth at the time, but he came back and enjoyed his rugby with the vets. And it was always, you know, he looked old enough to be everybody's granddad, but...

Carl (18:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (18:31)
he soon gave him the ball and these nippers were chasing chasing his tail, which was good. But I think with Matt, it was just it was work. But the story about him is I think Brian Saunders was our head coach at the time. And Matt came back from Havant and was starting at 13, I think, or wing. And he basically come back and took my shirt straight away. And I just I turned around and Brian and said to him, I said, you know, I was full of beans, eager and I was like, you know, mate, you know, how do I get my shirt back? And he just said, be better than him. And I said, well.

Carl (18:36)
Yeah.

Haha.

MARK WITCHER (19:00)
I said that I agreed that my communication skills are better than his, but it wasn't a selling point for the coaches. So Matt was work, he's a teacher and he's a cracking bloke, but I felt that certainly for backs easily, I think he was the best player that I ever played with.

Carl (19:01)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha!

MARK WITCHER (19:22)
so just the other guy that I really, really thought should have pushed on was a guy called Rich Herring. Just in the same stature as Neil Back really, you know, a bit smaller stature, really good defensively, great ball carrier and just, and could have pushed on. And do you know what? I'm, I'm, I'm don't speak out of turn and say this for him, but I think he just really enjoyed playing with his mates. You know, I'm sure that he got a...

I'm sure it got banded around him going elsewhere. And so much so that I think that he lives a Petersfield way now and every so often their vets have got to run out and he goes and has a run out. So I just don't think, again, it was a different era sounds a little bit cliche, but do you know what I mean? It's like.

Carl (19:59)
Yeah, fair play.

No, I think, as you said earlier, I think down to the professional game coming in so late, probably around that, you probably lost a lot of players that could or would have, should have been in or around the academy systems if they were now. They had the ability to be banding around in that pro level, but they never got picked up early, so they already had a job. They already had the commitments of life. Then the pro sort of piece come around and...

those players already missed that opportunity. So they probably thought, I might as well carry on playing with my mates. I enjoy it. I know I can get pissed every Saturday. I got, get away, go play rugby with my mates, job done. I don't need to worry about all the other stress. There wasn't that development probably.

MARK WITCHER (20:49)
Yeah, I think that's a good... I think you're right, but I think, I mean, another good man of mine, Tom Radbourne, you know, was an outstanding second row and I think went up to Newbury when they were, I think Newbury were nat one at the time, maybe nat two, I don't want to do him a disservice, but it was just he was a good player. It wasn't necessarily about big bucks at the time. And it was, I think that's players still play now because they want to. I just think that you can come...

Carl (21:00)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (21:18)
a little bit lower down the leagues and start earning money now. Whereas, I'm sure we'll talk about it a bit with the women's set up, not right away down. If you're not picked up early enough and it's not clear that you're actually going to flow with it, then yeah, what are lads looking to do it for? And for me, Rich was just absolutely... There's a lot of guys actually I was lucky to play with and it'd be interesting now to hear why they didn't. But for me, honestly, and...

Carl (21:21)
Hmm.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (21:48)
When we meet up now with Rich, I just think that he just genuinely enjoyed playing and having a laugh with his mates. And he was of an era where there was probably six or seven of them, all the same, all exactly the same age, all came through at the same time. And that makes a difference. It's not just like he's a nipper coming to an older side or an old head. He was right amongst having a laugh with his mates. So yeah, it was an interesting one to think about though. That was a real...

Carl (22:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (22:18)
And you know who could I know if there's gonna be one now I know now I won't mention it. If I see these podcasts, which I will send their way. And I'll bet they missed me saying, why didn't you say me? Why didn't you say me? It'd be a conversation for another time.

Carl (22:32)
Yeah, that's it. Well, we might get my episode version two out. We'd be able to name drop them or get them on. Yeah. as you mentioned, obviously you were captain of the twos and the vets at Portsmouth. Was that correct? A little birdie told me that you had one hell of a season at captains of the twos with a very sizable points average at the end of the season. Is that correct?

MARK WITCHER (22:38)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Yep.

 were, yeah, we were lucky on 1000 point season, but it was, you know, it wasn't quite invincible. You know, honesty and then transparency is, Havant beat us in a friendly the first game of the season. I'll never forget it, it ruined the polo shirts. But it goes sort of back to, I like that brotherhood and that camaraderie, because we were lucky that a lot of the ones and twos games were away.

Carl (23:13)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (23:23)
away together, you know, to say you travel off to wherever on a coach together. But it was loads of people training and the ones when they had a twos were getting on the twos, the same in the ones. We were training hard, we were playing hard, but having fun as well. And yeah, it just clicked. And I've never quite looked to see how many players played, but we had, you know, there was definitely a consistency of 10 core players playing week in, week out. But the competition was there and

Carl (23:25)
Yeah, yeah.

MARK WITCHER (23:51)
you know, turning up and turning over a few first teams was quite good to see, but we were really well supported by the club. And it was just one of those years, you know, just one of those years that kind of went right. And it would make it even better because hopefully that little bird told you that. I was in the end of season photograph because I wasn't there for it.

Carl (23:56)
Problem. Yeah.

No, a little bird didn't tell me that one, but he told me something to do with something else in a second.

MARK WITCHER (24:11)
I'll fu -

Okay, but I am yes, I need the captain insert not winter So yeah, very brilliant the best season that we could have had and didn't make the team photo

Carl (24:25)
That little birdie also told me apparently you've got a claim for the quickest yellow card probably ever recorded.

The little birdie said that you come on 30 seconds later, you yellow carded off the line. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (24:37)
yeah, for the what? Yeah, it was a communal yellow card. And yeah, it came on. I told the ref I was deceptively fast. I didn't think I was offside, but yeah. Come out the middle of the park, put a tackle in, and the ref carded me for a communal yellow card. Bit harsh, I thought. Yeah. I think it might have been quicker than that, you know, at the bench there. Probably was, yeah. Yeah.

Carl (24:42)
Thank you.

Eh...

30 seconds in, you gotta love that. What was it?

Brilliant. It was probably the little bird that pushed you. He probably pushed you in front of it, now in him.

MARK WITCHER (25:05)
I'll be having words with you a little bit later on. Yeah. Now, I was deceptively quicker many moons ago, but yeah, I'd probably had the jump on the back of the scrum, I reckon.

Carl (25:20)
So obviously, onto the coaching then. You've had a pretty amazing time at Portsmouth and Hampshire. Probably saw some great players coming through. Who did you coach that went on to make it? And was it obvious?

MARK WITCHER (25:39)
so I've got some cracking players Just this three. I'm going to leave out the blokes because I've only had a sort of season with them. I think it would be unfair. Really? There are some really good players there actually. And there are some guys that I think that can push on, but, there's, there's a girl that came down to us. So a girl called Abby Harding, played at Sarries

Carl (25:48)
Yeah, unfair.

Yep.

MARK WITCHER (26:00)
moved to Hayling Island with a job and just turned up, in the military, turned up and was different class. And I'd announced it, I think it was seven, eight weeks before she just had a baby. And that was like, you ain't playing yet. My wife's a midwife. So I was like, I need to go and talk to her. You ain't playing yet. And this was all new to me. And so I think after about 10 or 12 weeks, I think she was happy and we were happy and.

Carl (26:02)
Okay.

Wow.

MARK WITCHER (26:29)
And she was like, I'm going to say like, her consummate profession was like a bit of a cliche, but she come down and she just put it about, but she was helping the people around her. Like she'd been around, you know, some of England's best and we were really lucky to have her. So Abby Harding had already done it and stayed with us for quite a few seasons and you know, representing the RAF, brilliant player, but just for everything she brought to us. So I learned a lot of her.

Carl (26:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (26:57)
Opposite direction, her name's Makita Lewis, and she's up at Quins now, and not quite had a big break with them, but, and they're putting, she's on loan, I think she went on loan to London Irish this year, but would score tries for fun for us. Bit of boxing, played fullback for us in the hope that players would kick the ball to her. Rapid.

Carl (27:06)
Yeah.

Okay.

Ready?

MARK WITCHER (27:21)
I think she made the Jamaican national seven squad actually. I'm doing her a disservice. Yeah, so she's yeah there you go. I just, sorry, sorry about that cookie. So she, you know, and she's still learning. She's, you know, still applying to try. So we got her at quite a young age and so she pushed on. She went up to WASP but unfortunately, you know, what happened then?

Carl (27:26)
Really? Wow. That's not a bad rock out, is it? Christ. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (27:45)
She's at Quinn's now and hopefully she's being looked after and being mentored in the way that, you know, she'll get her chance. And I've told her that we've been up to watch, watch Quinn's a few times and always meet her. But she, you know, she doesn't forget Portsmouth as well. So she's grounded. She's come back down and did a bit of coaching, I know, and she's keen to do some more. And yeah, she was, she will be, she will be class. And I hope that she does get her opportunity. But yeah, they're the two for me that really stood out.

Carl (27:56)
Yeah.

Brilliant. And then who did you coach that could have gone on further but didn't?

MARK WITCHER (28:19)
All of them, they're rubbish coaches. There are quite a few and that sort of element of success in the women's game is not difficult to judge and you don't take anything away from any of them. So, you know, we had a girl Chloe that went up to Bath and I know that she's doing well up there. But for me, I picked two out and...

Carl (28:32)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (28:43)
One of them was girl, girl, Sophie Roseman was already playing. She was a big larger than life, like number eight, bull carrying, no, ex, ex Navy, no nonsense. But she, she didn't carry the side. The players, the players lifted their game. If they saw her name on the team sheet and I sold my soul to her a few, you owe me a few actually, Sophie. I sold my soul to her a few times, mate, just, just to get her playing, you know.

Carl (28:56)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (29:12)
Yeah, you're playing for your only plan the first half. You know, I'm going out tonight. You're only planning for issue. How we know? And where I'll drive it air and back or whatever it was, whatever, you know, I know you're coming back from injury, just pay 10, whatever it was. But she, everybody else's game raised 10 % seeing her name on the team sheet. And so Sophie probably, and even the other girl, I mentioned a minute, but Sophie

Carl (29:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (29:35)
was coming to the end of her rugby, if you like, and work was taken over and getting qualified for what she's doing now and that side of it. And that's important. It's an amateur sport at our level. And I know that. And I tell the players now, we don't pay your bills. We don't pay your mortgage. And we have to accept that. And Sophie was a very, very good player.

Carl (29:41)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (30:02)
definitely could have pushed on. And actually one of her right -hand women was a girl called Charlie Morgan. And Charlie stayed at Pompey. She's represented the army quite a few times now with full honours. Charlie was a brilliant number nine, but could also, I think she's kicking it in the back row every so often now and could play 10 for us, didn't like it. But yeah, Charlie was a really, she's a paramedic now, but she...

Carl (30:24)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (30:32)
she could have made it. And I think it was, again, I think I wrote down for both of these guys, it was the opportunities for women to find themselves. Nowadays to find, they were on the cusp of, at one time you could almost walk into a, it wasn't premiership, it was like championship one, if you like. You could almost not walk into a side, I'm not taking it away from that, but the pool wasn't as big. Whereas,

Carl (30:54)
Yeah.

Yep.

MARK WITCHER (31:00)
Nowadays, because they got rid of their development teams in the women's premiership, the championship one got more saturated. So it was difficult you had to push harder to get further up. But both of those, both of those are the attributes to absolutely fly, I'm sure of it.

Carl (31:12)
Yeah.

So what season would that have roughly been that they were there or thereabouts where they could have, because the transition's only been.

MARK WITCHER (31:23)
So I picked them So seven years ago, I started with the Valkyries and I think they were both there then. I think we went up in 20. So the season before that was unbeaten. So that might have been the 19, 20 or 18, 19. So you could argue that they were probably at their peak then, if you like.

Carl (31:33)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, so that was probably what a season or two just before the Prem 15s that sort of come in. But probably a bit too late for the whole development piece to make it as a pro and make it as a viable sort of actual full -time job as well. Is that fair to say?

MARK WITCHER (31:51)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, well, also, I'm not gonna, I hope I'm not being rude to them and I can't remember how old they are. Sophie's certainly north of 30 and I'm sure Charlie's there or there. So they're not getting picked up as a development age, you know, and to be able to, you know, you'll do well to, so we were national, we were national champ one, so that's tier four. Winning that going into tier three, the jump, I mean, I made a few notes about the jump from the lowest league to,

Carl (32:24)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (32:32)
two leagues above is huge. And then the jump from champ two, which is kind of like, we got relegated to that in my last year, but a jump from champ two to premiership is only two leagues, but it's, the golf is huge. You're talking about playing, you're playing international players, you're playing, you know, ex -international players. know, these girls are playing or training, not necessarily week in, week out, but they're training with.

Carl (32:34)
Yeah.

Yeah.

It is a huge.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (32:58)
international players and international level coaches. And so yeah, we were, it was a few years too far back for them really, but they would have made it all day long.

Carl (33:09)
So they, I've said this on a couple of pods as well, they're probably the players that were lost to the system that was created too late because there wasn't a development path earlier on to make that sort of progression. have probably been lost to the way the system's not been set up early enough and we could probably go back.

years and years and as you said just lads from your era that you don't get the opportunity because it wasn't a professional game. Because rugby's only been professional for 30 years at a men's level it would be probably quite amazing to go back and see how many players have probably missed out and what teams could have been like back then.

MARK WITCHER (33:38)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you now, I went to a Naver boarding school and it didn't go against the trend, but you know, they always say it's like everyone came from private schools and you know, I only know one guy who's older than me, you know, one guy made England B, you know, back in the late, late eighties. And whereas now I think the pathway for the men set up, I know they're changing it again this year, I think, but.

Carl (34:07)
Bye.

MARK WITCHER (34:17)
The pathway is established and recognized, and senior clubs are picking them up and are helping them through. And I think that the pathways sort of go lower than the premiership in the men's set up. So you will find championship clubs and even that one clubs have got at least some sort of recognized pathway. Whereas, what we're saying sort of men's set up is 30 years old. The women are...

Carl (34:20)
Mm.

MARK WITCHER (34:45)
20 plus years behind them, 25 years maybe behind them. So it's getting better and I have seen it firsthand how a club with a good pathway internally can help progression, but also feed a club to maybe, I'm not sure I like that so much, but.

Carl (34:59)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (35:06)
We were never one to hold a player back and you shouldn't. They need to be picked up in the right way. And you're right, if our generation or our era, how many missed out because they weren't quite, they weren't picked up in that way because clubs couldn't take a punt on them almost.

Carl (35:20)
It happens in football a lot as well, though, doesn't it? The top club will go and sign them and then loan them back for a season or two to the club that they come from to give them that chance to develop. And I don't think that's always done within rugby. When I was speaking to Liam, though, the other week, he said that a lot of the men's game, they've got a programme where the prem players, their entry level youth system will go to, say, a NAT two for a season.

then the next year up their graduates will go to NAT 1. And then there is a bit of a path that they've generated. But if you don't go and have a good season at your NAT 2 team, does that mean you're lost to the system? Do you just get thrown by the wayside? Because not every player becomes at their peak at the same time. Just because they've been picked up by Academy doesn't mean that it takes them another five or six years to get what?

I'd probably say like a dad strength. Do you know what, it's weird. Like you get to a certain point in your life and you've got a certain level of natural strength that you didn't have before. And it just, it changes you as a player and everything like that. Some lads don't develop in that same path. It does take them a bit longer. And then they're able to go and play their game.

MARK WITCHER (36:17)
Yeah.

I think the thing as well is keeping them interested. They become disillusioned. So you're a Premiership rugby side and you release six, seven, eight academy players. They've just gone from being representing potentially a Premiership side at an academy level. They get dropped. If they don't get picked up by, at what level do they get picked up from to think, do you know what, this is still a good level. I'm still playing competitive rugby.

Carl (36:40)
Hmm.

MARK WITCHER (37:05)
And as you say, a lad at 20 or whatever might get dropped from the academy, but he might be a superstar at Pompey's level, but actually, is that pathway back up ever gonna be there for him? I don't mean coming down, but even going to a Nat 1, Nat 2 club, is that path ever gonna be there for him to go back? And I think that needs to be looked at even more so.

Carl (37:27)
Unless that club that he goes to has got a clear plan to get to the championship or above. They're not going to get to the premiership because the RFU are stuck in their ways, they're archaic, they don't want any more than the old guard. That's the promised land, they're protected.

MARK WITCHER (37:45)
Can I come in on you really quickly? Sorry, because it's really interesting, but I want to know your point from it. If they didn't ring fence it and they allowed the likes of Ealing, Cornish Pirates, Doncaster, whoever it is, if there was a promotion and relegation with established clubs, clubs that are financially viable, wouldn't that make it more exciting?

Carl (37:47)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

100%, like Newcastle, well, they finished with what, four points this season or something stupid like that. Gloucester getting beaten by 80 odd points. It's a disgrace to the league. Like they're on about, I saw something else today. They're on about rebranding it slightly, but it's the same dog shit with a little bit more fucking glitter on it. It's crap. It's not gonna improve anyway. It's not, and like just this.

MARK WITCHER (38:29)
Yeah.

Carl (38:34)
stupid idea that Ealing doesn't have a big enough ground. They're never going to get into the position to have a bigger ground because they can't bring any more in at the championship level. You've got Doncaster. It's good enough for them to hold women's rugby there for the England game, but not good enough for them to get into the Premiership You've got Sale that's stuck in the arse end of nowhere. You've got Newcastle in the arse end of nowhere.

The RFU are stuck in their own little bubble that they want their own little bit and who they want in there, the rest of them can die. That's pretty much my opinion of what Premiership Rugby is now. It's they think that's it. They've got, they can go up on the marquee players, the rest of it below, leave it to rot. They don't give a fuck, to be honest. And that's my opinion. And that's why I started this pod because I just can't see them opening the door to anything else.

MARK WITCHER (39:23)
Yeah.

Carl (39:27)
and while you've still got Bill Beaumont in charge and on top of the fucking world rugby doing whatever he wants, the game's going to disappear at this rate and it'll be him single -handedly with his hand on the murder weapon.

MARK WITCHER (39:27)
It makes me laugh. Sorry, mate.

Yeah, we have to hope that it, we have to hope that there's some forward thinking. Mavericks might be a bit pushing it, but you know what I mean? I mean, what I was going to use was the old football analogy, at least the Premiership, turn around to Luton and said, right, you've got to do a few things, but you are going to have your stadium in the middle of people's houses and you're going to be in the Premiership. And all it'll do is to Ealing is say, look, you're not going to be able to, we understand you can't increase the numbers. There's a couple of safety measures we need you to have a look at.

Carl (39:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (40:08)
And yes, you've earned your place at the table. And then they get a year, they get a season, but they have to show, they've got a business model in place. There's no good them signing 10 superstar players, get relegated and can't afford them. That's not a good model. And there's no parachute payments and such. But it would give them that opportunity. And I just think at the moment, as you said, Newcastle kick about at the bottom. Why don't you give somebody else a chance?

Carl (40:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Obviously, Jersey went bust, so they've now ring -fenced their championship for this season, which Caldy or Cambridgeshire are down around that bottom run. Are they probably good enough for the championship? Maybe, maybe not. They've now got another season. Are they really going to push on before the relegation piece comes back in next year? Ealing, are they going to win the title again next year? Is anyone else going to compete? Hopefully. Coventry have had a really good season. Doncaster have had a really good season.

MARK WITCHER (40:43)
Yeah.

Carl (41:10)
So it's been a good top end of the championship. Nobody's gonna have any interest in that if it doesn't end anywhere. Like if you've got the same 10 teams that can't fund their own clubs, I reckon give it another year or two years and we'll be down to eight teams in that premiership, because at least two would have dropped by the wayside.

MARK WITCHER (41:29)
Yeah, well, I was talking to a mate even a couple of years ago before before was and he had his finger on the pulse a little bit before was was when and for Irish when he said, mate, there are there are majority of the premises are teetering on on financial ruin. And they need the money, the TV money to be sustainable. And that's not right. And as you said, somebody's got to have a look at it somewhere and say, you know, what's going on? And it's I understand with the women's side of it. What I ring fence it.

Carl (41:36)
Mm. Yep.

MARK WITCHER (41:59)
not permanently, but they've got to protect this asset that they've created, I suppose. But even then, Worcester went by the wayside and WOS went by the wayside. So it doesn't make it immortal. No, no, I tell you what, it was Darlington, wasn't it? Yeah, DMP, wasn't it? Darlington Motor Park, yeah. But even so, they took the decision to drop out. And I think they even went further down. But

Carl (42:11)
Did Durham drop out as well? Did Durham drop off? They dis...

Darlington. That's it. Yeah. So they dropped off.

MARK WITCHER (42:29)
You've got the likes of, you know, literally have combined now, literally have gone with Leicester Tigers. You know, Thurrock are always up there. Cheltenham, I know, won it this year and, you know, they're always pushing. And I was lucky enough to take our women's team to Cheltenham and although there's no stand, the setup is really good in terms of pitches, et cetera. When do they get their opportunity? And I get what they are if you're worried about.

Carl (42:39)
Mm -hmm.

MARK WITCHER (42:57)
is you know are they in that financial position but every so often i think you've just got to you know if if if we're looking to try and rather than rebrand it rather than try and you know sprinkle cool glitter on it like you said just just make it a bit more exciting don't even don't change the laws or anything just give give other teams an opportunity to dine at that top table and you never know

Carl (43:17)
It will naturally level itself out. If you opened it up to 14 teams or 12 teams or whatever it is, there will be a natural progression. They've obviously got this big sticky plaster that they're putting over next season with every game being made available on TNT Sports or whatever it is. All that's doing is putting another further sticky plaster on, being slightly accessible to the armchair fan. Most fans

you're part of rugby, you watch rugby, they're going to be playing on Saturdays or what, unless they're going to be putting them on midweek in the evening and stuff like that, which is then going to lose fans going to the game, which it doesn't matter how big your stadium is if you haven't got anyone in it. So why can't you open the door to Ealing, let them have some of the TV money and Doncaster and stuff like that, and then let them grow and develop. There isn't, it's just so narrow minded because once you get...

what, you've got the Midlands and then you've got, what, Sale's what, Manchester. So you've got the Midlands and then you've got Newcastle that's in the arse end of nowhere. If you've got Newcastle, why can't you add the Cornish Pirates? Why can't you add like, Richmond back in, do you know what I mean? It's just so archaic and I don't know why, it's down to money, but that's why, like you said, you're a lad that if he drops out of the under 20s.

MARK WITCHER (44:14)
Man, just a year.

What do you think about that?

Carl (44:40)
If he drops out of an under -20s in a championship academy system, in a premiership, where would he be able to fall? At least in football, you've got five tiers of pretty much professional football. He can still make some money even in the conference and still have a path of, if he has a couple of blinding seasons, he won't get in the championship and get his big payday. We've not got that safety net. Unless you go abroad and you go and play in France and you put your trade in to their four divisions of rugby, which are very good decent level.

MARK WITCHER (45:00)
Yeah, definitely.

Carl (45:10)
They've got international players playing in the fourth tier in French rugby out there. We've got that, but they're never going to see that again. They're never going to get to that high. There's no progression path once you've dropped off that Academy conveyor belt. And we're not supporting that by not letting anyone else in the Premiership

MARK WITCHER (45:20)
No, you're right.

No, and that's another thing. So you imagine like a top four, top four premiership side, drop out, drop an Academy player, for example, they may well get picked up by one of these newly promoted sides. You know, you got, and let's use Ealing as an example, they get promoted, you know, they pick the lad up, he has one season for him as a development player, he could be starting, you know, within a season, could be starting straight away if that's what the player they need. So yeah, I think you're right.

Carl (45:42)
Yep.

 the salary cap, it's crippled the league. English Premiership rugby is not able to offer the money to compete with the best players in the world. They're not gonna attract the best players in the world to come to the league. At least with the Premier League in football, they've got big clubs, they've got big money, they've got big players.

English Premiership rugby hasn't got that option with this salary cap in place. They're all going to France for their retirement or they've got the option to go to America, to Japan. They're willingly upset all of these players that can still do a job and put their name on the back of a shirt and sell that product. It's just so close -minded as a business, it's terrifying.

MARK WITCHER (46:42)
Yeah, it's something I think about quite a lot actually, because you see these guys that go off and I think that England have got two decisions to make. How do we attract these players? And I think that comes down to money. And I think that some of the clubs have had it away a little bit. So I think that that comes down to the RFU. They manage themselves as a club, but the RFU can't let them get away with it. So if you're going to let them increase the salary cap, then...

you know, there's got to be there's got to be clauses, etc. written into I'm sure there has been also. And so I think that that you're right, I think to compete with, you know, I can't believe that the Japanese television market can be on par with ours, let's say, so the monies that come in for some reason, so they're getting the South Sea Islanders and the Kiwis all going over there. So there's this money for it. And an appetite and same in France. I know it's really big over there, but

they're doing something right because they're getting superstars going over there now. It's not even for payday like you said, you know, some of the England boys are leaving now. You know, they're going over there potentially in their prime. And the other thing for me is this selection of, you know, player goes to play abroad and they can't be selected for their country. I think that somebody somewhere just needs to take their blinkers off. And you let somebody, like with modern technology, and with, I'm not saying we've got loads and loads of recruiters or like,

like in football, they go and send their agents or talent scouts around. I know we haven't got that set up, but with modern technology nowadays, you know, I'm seeing all of, I mean, you know, we've got VEO at Portsmouth like a lot of other clubs have. I'm not saying that's out and out what you want, but I'm sure if you want a video reel of an individual player, they're put together nowadays. You know, we're getting CV sent over now with show reels of like a 20 year old lad. I can't believe that we can't send these players away with our blessing.

Carl (48:19)
Yep.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (48:34)
and we can have them coming back, they're playing with superstar players from all around the world and then they can come back and bring some of that back to the England set up.

Carl (48:39)
Exactly. That's the thing, they're going to go and play with better players. They're going to go and learn new things. They're going to bring the bits back.

Most coaches speak to each other. As long as they know they're doing exactly what's instructed to do, there is no reason. But going to the Japanese stuff, a lot of the Japanese clubs are actually funded by businesses. So you've got Toyota and stuff like that. They're all sort of fund around that because they want that brand and...

which is brilliant to see because they buy into it, they understand it and they actually send scouts to the South Sea Islands and stuff like that. They've got scouts over there and they start picking the kids up from the age of eight now. So they've got a big plan of what they do and how they set up. So they know exactly what they've got to do. They go and pick them up. A lot of these, a lot of these Islanders even Tonga, I think I was listening to the Faka Tower podcast on by the journeymen Co of a week. And they were saying that,

MARK WITCHER (49:22)
Wow.

Carl (49:38)
He was eight hours away from the mainland in Tonga, so he didn't even feel part of Tonga. So he was never planned on playing for Tonga because it was never that close. It was eight hours away. And he was one of the first ones to sort of be picked up and brought out through the system and go to France and stuff. But a lot of that was through links with family members. But now the Japanese clubs actually have got scouts.

on these islands, going around picking up kids from the age of eight or nine and getting them over to Japan so they're ready with the residency rules. So they've got the idea and we Havant got that.

MARK WITCHER (50:12)
And that's the worry is that, yeah, and that's the worry. We were a top nation for attracting people and people still do want to come over and they recognise the Premiership has been a challenging league, but we're getting left behind by Japan and France and other nations will overtake us as well. And before you know it, we'll be the ones that wondering why we're putting out a second rate international side.

Carl (50:21)
Yep. Yep.

MARK WITCHER (50:38)
because everyone's going away. And again, I don't want it to come back to money, but these lads putting their sales on the line for a relatively short career, why don't they have a few years in the prem and then arguably in their peak, they're going off getting paid X amount of times more.

Carl (50:47)
correct.

It was like Lewis Rees Zammit disappearing off to the NFL. He's going to get paid very well for a few years. Hope, fair play to him. Go get it done. In five years, you could still come back and tear up rugby because nothing would have changed.

MARK WITCHER (50:58)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, if you imagine, imagine if he had a couple of years over there, it doesn't quite work out. So he's a bit part player or whatever. He'll come, he'll come back to France or Japan, rip the backside out of that earning a decent wedge, set himself up for life and then come back to England or Wales and still get into, yeah, still be in time to get international caps. So yeah, fair, yeah, yeah.

Carl (51:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

He could stay in America. So the American system, rugby over there as well. They've got a lot of players going over there in their heyday, so there's no reason the money's not in the pocket there as well. So fair play to him. 2031, 2031, 2031.

MARK WITCHER (51:39)
Well, I think they've got the next, not the next World Cup, but a World, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I look at a few of the roles that are coming up in Canada and America and the university systems. And you look at the wages, they're looking to pay the coaches. It pales us into insignificance. And they want to be a shining light. Obviously, they want to do well in their own backyard. So, yeah, you're right.

Carl (51:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (52:04)
that you can just see it in the next few years. American Canada don't do it by heart. So they'll pay a load of money into it. And it will be the next place to go.

Carl (52:13)
And then you've got the likes of India as well. So I've got a lad that I'm speaking to that's coming on the pod in a few weeks time. Yeah. So he was saying there's 28 provinces within India and they all come together for like a national selection. So obviously I don't want to give away all the juicy bits before, but they've obviously got 1 .2 billion people within the player pool.

MARK WITCHER (52:18)
Yeah, I can't wait to hear that. I can't wait to hear that.

Carl (52:36)
Their sevens game is what they're trying to bring through and really push them into it. So in a few weeks time when that pod comes out, it's going to be really interesting because they've got really big plans over there how was the progression of women's rugby during your tenure then?

obviously as we sort of touched on it lightly, was it, got to a point where it was just a steady building blocks and then it accelerated or was it one day turned up and next thing it was all the big thing that now everyone's showing as part of it and the RFU are using it as another blinker for their deficiencies on other departments.

MARK WITCHER (53:11)
I think that it was the start of the televising of the Red Roses games, even on YouTube or whatever it might have been. I think that started switching people onto it.

Carl (53:23)
Yeah, was that when they made it onto BBC One? Because obviously it used to be on BBC Two, but nobody ever really knew about.

MARK WITCHER (53:29)
I think it was just even when it was on BBC two to start with, but then it obviously hit the years and was just on YouTube. It wasn't even on trust trust or TV. but yeah, hitting that, there was, you know, this, this, this girl can, the inner warrior series. they were really, they were really providing the momentum. And I think that the success of the red roses, we're starting to sort of switch people onto it. So the younger.

Carl (53:35)
Yeah.

Hmm.

MARK WITCHER (53:53)
The younger generation was kind of like, I can do this. Why isn't my school putting it on? And they were, the players themselves weren't afraid to have a voice. I think the RFU did recognize that. And I think that talking to some of the development officers, the regional officers that I was dealing with at the time, we were pushing against sort of like a half open door. So, if you've got ideas, you come to us with them.

And if it works, then we'll roll it out. And we even had that, you know, there's funding for it. What do you want to do? So I think that there was kind of like a bit of a swell of a few different areas. I think that the international and Premiership players were a little bit more accessible than the men just because there was a smaller pool of them. You were going to go and watch Quinn's play at Guilford at Surrey Sport Park, where you park up and walk in. There's no...

Carl (54:22)
Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (54:47)
It's not a stadium. So it was a little bit more accessible, I suppose, whereas we want it to be a big stadium to everything. Of course we do. So even at local level, I think that there was an uptake, especially around locally to us, there's a fair few women's teams, but we are fairly spread out. So we're not fishing from the same pond kind of thing. It's kind of like,

Carl (54:54)
Mm.

MARK WITCHER (55:14)
that there were enough to go round and then, you know, Portsmouth would decide that we're doing well, Havant been doing well at the moment. Trojans have historically always done well and produce some, you know, some pretty, pretty top class players. But for us, it was kind of like, we were lucky we hit a time really where I think that we tapped into the Navy at a time where they were trying to put more effort into their inter -service matches. And this was just pre them going to Twickenham.

Carl (55:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (55:41)
So the few years before that, we had quite a few there. We recognized that the university was a, the big thing for us was getting a second team out. And they didn't have to go in the league. We just wanted them to play six or seven games a season because we had too many players for the first team and we didn't have enough players for a second team. So our remit was that let's get another team out and then they're playing rugby. Didn't matter if it was competitive or ten a side. We wanted,

Carl (56:09)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (56:10)
wanting more than that. And it just, you know, it's just a success, breed success a little bit. And we were lucky winning the, we won the national junior cup. We went a season unbeaten and you know, I'm really proud of our achievements, but it's 20 years gone by. They start, you know, the, the, the foundations were set 20, 20 years or more ago. So we're only, we're only helping building that. And, you know, we're only part of their kind of fabric, if you like, but.

Carl (56:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (56:35)
you've got to push your names out there and, you know, getting us into like rugby world magazine or in the news. I mean, Kevin Ricketts, you know, God rest his soul was a massive champion for us. And every week, Sunday night, phone me up. How did you get on this week? And suddenly, you know, you're in the media a little bit and, and so it was really good. But I think that, well, I think that we were only, we were still on the coattails of what they're.

Carl (56:46)
Yeah.

Problem.

MARK WITCHER (57:00)
what the international players were doing and the creation of the Women's Premier League.

Carl (57:03)
Yeah.

What the women's game's done is phenomenal. What the Red Roses have done and been able to push it forward. Do you think or do you fear that is now the next cash cow for the RFU? Obviously they've managed to fill up Twickers the other week at reasonable prices. They're what, 30 or a quid a ticket, something like that. Wasn't mega dollar, still accessible for most.

MARK WITCHER (57:21)
Cool.

Carl (57:33)
Are they going to use that as the next cash cow for the Hooray Henrys paying 80, 90 quid because their mate's got a prawn sarnie down at Twickers for that weekend?

MARK WITCHER (57:42)
So I'm gonna, I'll be honest with you, I've been there, I haven't been there when it's been sell out, sell out yet. I've been to quite a few of the Red Roses games and they've had 50, 50 plus thousand people there. And we've paid as little as 20 pounds for me and five pounds for my daughter. And I went to Twickenham to watch a men paid, I used to pay 30 quid a pot for that.

And you're right, paying, I don't know, 90, 100, 150 quid. So we go and watch, we still got to Twickenham we get to see an international game. We've just booked tickets, we've just booked tickets for the New Zealand game in September.

But my fear is that they're not selling out regularly for the women's game and I think they should be doing that first before they ever consider putting the money up. Because their dream, the RFU's dream for me in my opinion is that next year England play New Zealand or France in the final of the World Cup and it's a sellout.

And then that's when they'll be right. Women have sold this out now. We're going to start putting the prices up. And I think that I told you earlier on that the women's game is 25 years behind the men's commercially, even more maybe. And you can see that with a number of times the sponsorships changed for the for the premiership. And that is my fear. And I don't know. It will come a time when I have to. There'll come a time when it's.

Carl (58:55)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (59:10)
commercially a necessity, but all the time it's not. And if you're not filling it up yet, then I think you should leave one alone for the time being.

Carl (59:18)
I'm fully on board for it to go up if it goes back into the game, if it goes back into the system to generate more players to come through and for more leagues and stuff like that. I think a lot of rugby fans will willingly pay that 20, 30 quid extra to make it accessible and improve that. The cynic in me knows that that's not gonna happen. They're not gonna put the money back in the system. It's just there to cover the cover -ed, cover -eds.

MARK WITCHER (59:40)
Maybe that's what my pushback is then, Carl, is that, yeah, call me an old cynic, but I'd rather them fill it up at the prices they're charging now. And that's talking about accessibility. Those people that they're taking to watch now, my mate's daughter, we take with us, she's playing at Portsmouth, she's 10 years old. That's accessible to her. You make that ticket.

Carl (59:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

MARK WITCHER (1:00:09)
or people can't afford it, you suddenly make it, they can't afford it, then you're taking that away from them before they've even filled it up. And yeah, that's a fear. If they're open and honest about it, we're putting it up, declare it, X amount of percentages going back to grassroots, you know, and don't make it just a token gesture. They're getting rid of development officers that are doing so much work on the ground to make it easy for coaches to, you know, for material and coaching equipment and...

Carl (1:00:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:00:38)
And they're getting rid of them because, and using COVID in my mind as an excuse, because they weren't, I think, I might have answered to me, I think every time Twickenham doesn't put a game on, or every time they put a game on, they make 10 million quid. So if they're not putting a game on, they lose 10 million quid. You know, well, that's great. But if you can't put, if you're not filling the stadium, then you're not, you know, do you charge three times the amount and have a third amount of people in there? I don't know. It's not, not for me, I'm afraid.

Carl (1:01:04)
How can you be running a business and losing 10 million quid every time? Nah, it may, and that's exactly what we've got to do. Because nobody else is calling it out. A lot of people are rolling over having their tummy tickled and think that they're going to get away with the RFU running the beautiful game into the ground. Somebody's got to call it out.

MARK WITCHER (1:01:05)
It's quite militant that was Carl, isn't it? It's quite militant. Apparently, if they...

I might be wrong, I might be wrong, but I'd rather than be transparent and say that, you know, the price is going up and an extra 10 % or whatever it might be is being ploughed back into grassroots. And you go, do you know what? I'm all up for supporting that. Here's my extra 10, 15, 20 pounds. So yeah, I appreciate what you're saying.

Carl (1:01:36)
Yep, exactly. And I think Pompey did the same. So Pompey Football Club, they did it as well. So they gave you an option. If you bought a match ticket, you donate an extra 10 % to the Academy side. So they just put it on the thing. You didn't have to pick it. If you wanted to donate a bit extra, click the button. You donated that. You bought your ticket for your game and you gave a little bit extra to the Academy. So you knew exactly where it was going. So that was a separate pot.

R if you want to look at doing stuff like that, just something's got to happen. So look, they clearly can't fund it themselves. They cut, as you said, if they're cutting development offices, they're cutting other parts to support the wider game and the growth. Rugby is such a big community internally. We're

Very stuck within our own little bubble though. We obviously, I said earlier on in the first pod, we think we're bigger than we are, but a lot of people willing to put their hand in their pocket to support the bigger cause. Just some people have to be nudged in that direction. So if the RFU said, tick this box and you pay an extra fiver, but it goes to Molly down in Sidmouth at five, that's going to be able to get into the game of rugby.

people will be clicking that button more times you get a chance to pay for a normal ticket and it's not advertised enough. We don't show what it gives back as well. Just because they tick that button, they don't go and see what it's added on. Rugby seems to be like, we've donated this, but we don't show you what the end product is. We're still very inept at marketing.

MARK WITCHER (1:03:08)
I think all that

Carl (1:03:11)
more worried about videos on Instagram of people throwing a ball around a couple of times. I think that's brilliant for short clips and bits in between, but we've got to go and see what is actually happening on the ground and how many people are coming through.

MARK WITCHER (1:03:11)
Yeah.

I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, and that's it. And then a bit of that builds on what it, I always say to our club, it's easy to get, it's always easy to get 10, 100 pound sponsors and it is to get 1 ,000 pound sponsor. So it must be easier for us to get 80 ,000 people. I'm not saying 80 ,000 people are gonna all click it, but 10 ,000 people click 50p or whatever it might be. And then there are a few then, for your donations, we've been able to provide X.

Carl (1:03:39)
correct.

MARK WITCHER (1:03:52)
Sidmuth under 15s, Sidmuth under fives have now got a set of sponsored match balls or whatever it might be. And I know it does go on. I know them because every so often you put in for a grant, you get it or whatever, but you just hit the nail on the head is actually, if they're a little bit more humble about it and they present it in such a manner, then I think that you're going to find that there actually are some people out there that are a bit more philanthropic and go, do you know what?

and I can afford to, I've had a lucky good year or whatever it might be, I can put in a bit more. And that's how you get your pawn sandwich eaters, not giving them blinking corporate tickets and boxes, show them what that money's used for.

Carl (1:04:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly that. And they've got a big screen at Twickers. They've got all of those bits. So the people that do go regularly that see that, they bought a ticket or they buy in advance, that money's already, it's on the big screen. You see it and you sit there and you think, actually, I was part of that. And we don't get that feel, feel good factor in rugby as much. It's very much a lot. I was speaking to Polly in the, second pod and he obviously head coach there. Ian White is,

MARK WITCHER (1:04:47)
Yeah, brilliant.

Carl (1:05:02)
chairman and he has to deal with it. I said about he said about the grants and that I said is it literally you've got to be there at the right time you've got up on one leg and you've got to click the right button and make sure you he's like sometimes it's just the email comes in you've got to click the right link at the right time he said we don't get told what's available at the start of the year right this is what's available can you put a business case together because it is a business don't get me wrong everyone needs to make a case also actually these five clubs have all put in a

good case there's 50 grand, can't pick one of them, we're gonna pick all five of them, give them 10 grand apiece. And it's just not accessible, it's not, it's just English nature as well though, and at most councils. They make it impossible to reach, but then when they get to the end of the budget, they'll prefer to dig a road up because they've got to spend the budget rather than putting it back into something that's gonna keep kids off the street.

MARK WITCHER (1:05:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Carl (1:05:55)
Leading on to obviously the player pool that's available in the region. Our Pompeer team that should be higher up the leagues with the player pool that's available on the Portsea Island.

and in the surrounding areas obviously. Is this going back to the funding piece or is there something else that's potentially happened at Portsmouth that doesn't allow the club to exploit? Because Portsmouth Football Club, biggest club in Hampshire, no qualms about that.

Havant up the road are doing a lot bigger than Portsmouth Rugby Club? Have Portsmouth missed the boat that Havant got on board with, or is there, obviously you being a Portsmouth lad through the club, through the coaching system, is there something that Portsmouth as a club have missed the boat on?

MARK WITCHER (1:06:46)
It's a really difficult one because I'm more than happy to take my port... Yeah. I'll take my ports with tinted glasses off and say that, you know, Havant have clearly done something right. I used to sort of say all the clubs would be doing this locally and one season, Pompey would have a good season and then Gosport would be up there and...

Carl (1:06:51)
How long do you want to be assistant coach for, Mark? How long you got left?

MARK WITCHER (1:07:14)
Winchester or whatever, you know, and Havant whatever it might have been. And then we're all about the same about the same level. But they've just something's clicked up there. And, you know, one day I'd love to find out what it is. And you could argue that, you know, they've suddenly got a pitch that can be used all year round, which is a nice selling point. You know, if you go upstairs in their clubhouse, they've that's all been completely reinvented. And it's

you know, it looks nice and it's, you know, they're marketing and they're, catering and everything just seems to be, you know, the, you're ticking the box at the moment and doing it right. And I think that if you can get these things right, you, you get that bit of a swell and a bit of momentum, ⁓ and success off the pitch can then breed success on the page. And it's sort of like self -fulfilling. So that, for me, I think that we should be sort of tapping into Havant's model as

Carl (1:07:59)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:08:08)
best we can maybe to decide what aspirations we've got. Because I think that depending on how far you go, the level that your club may get to may not reflect on the ambition that the club's got, if that makes sense. And I mean, by that, we should at least be a successful London division club. We were, we were up in that two, that one.

Carl (1:08:29)
Hmm, yep.

MARK WITCHER (1:08:37)
comfortable there. And I believe the club have got ambition and desire to be back there. I think that once you get above that level, and you're talking National League, then I think it's a different dilemma altogether. I think that finances come in low down anyway, the clubs are run as a business and they have to be because we run that clubhouse, we've got to pay for it, we've got to maintain it.

Carl (1:08:59)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:09:05)
So there's a business element even at our level, but when you're getting up to contractually signing players, et cetera, then I think it's just, it's different. But in terms of player pool, I'm really proud that we're the city side and I know US sportsmen for in the city as well. And I know that we've probably got about eight clubs that are jotted down, fairly local and we span quite a few leagues. Although some are condensed, but.

Carl (1:09:28)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:09:32)
There should be a bit of rugby for everybody. I'd love to say we're a sleeping giant and we're going to push on. But I think that there'll be a natural glass ceiling, I suppose, but there'll be a level that we could get to. Certainly we should be aspiring to be pushing a couple of leagues above from where we are now into the London leagues. I think that what's admirable with Petersfield is that

Carl (1:09:51)
Mm.

MARK WITCHER (1:09:57)
they've set their stall out at quite an early, they've been building to it. I know some of the coaches and DORs that have been and gone and managers, but it's not, they're not just trying to do this overnight. Stu's been there for a long time and he's an ambitious guy and he's definitely set his stall out for where he wants them to be and he's prepared to go for it. And it's gonna cost them,

Carl (1:10:03)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:10:24)
financially and physically and whatever else, but they're prepared to go for it at the moment. And I think that, I wish them well. I mean, the thing with Winchester is that they've probably a year or two ahead of Petersfield in terms of ambition, but it's still this year because of Jersey. And now they've got another year of being in that same league. And the danger for them is that Petersfield come up behind them and railroad that.

Carl (1:10:42)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:10:52)
that promotion again. But for us, I think that we, if we're going to progress, we need to do it right. But I know the club and I know the chairman really, really well. And it can't be at a cost, you know, it's got to be as self -sustaining as we can be really. And by that, it's going to mean that it's going to mean that we will hit a ceiling because you'll get to a stage where

Carl (1:10:54)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:11:16)
players can go and play for another club, fairly locally, and if they're good enough, they're going to get paid for it. And we're not there.

Carl (1:11:24)
No, but when I used to go to Portsmouth, your clubhouse was never full after games. I know this is probably shooting in the dark here a lot, but there was a period that it was packed and then there was a real lull when you guys didn't fill out your own clubhouse. We were the sort of the last, the away teams were the last teams that were still in your clubhouse. Do you think the club lost a little bit of identity for a period?

didn't sort of support its own because it was cheaper to go down the spoons around the corner than.

MARK WITCHER (1:11:57)
Yeah, well, do you know what? Yeah, you're right. And I think that clubs have to have to look at that, not just Portsmouth, but all clubs. I think that success breathes, I'll flip it around from success on the pitch does breathe success off of it. If you've got sides doing well, they're going to stay behind and support it. I think that the dynamic has changed about what players potentially want afterwards. So it's, you know,

We need to try and keep players afterwards, but it might just be for a couple of hours rather than into the night, which they've got new bar management in now. So they're more attuned to the club, I think. I don't think it's right for me ever to talk badly about previous coaches, but I think there was an element of the club not moving in the right direction. And I think that...

We lost some players because of that. And I think that, you know, potentially we all took it for granted. you know, I'll come from a very successful era at the club. bar was packed, you know, we were winning staff, but also, you know, you've got to take those blinkers off and turn around and say, and I think we probably went too far. Like somebody didn't grab hold of it beforehand and say, you know, what can we do to put it right? And it's all well and good throwing these things up. But,

Carl (1:13:13)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:13:16)
things cost money and if we had a free bar after every game we'd be packed, you know, home and away. But there's got to be other things we can do and I think that with the management setup, the committee and the coaching setup now and the players, I think the club's been squeezed a bit more now and by that I think we're all sort of like, the communication's definitely, the communication goes further up and down through the club now, whereas it might have stopped.

Carl (1:13:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:13:46)
it might have stopped within a side or it might have stopped from the committee down, whereas there's definitely more of that. I think that there's a really good feeling at the club at the moment and that's come from putting more sides out. We've had a fairly successful season, even in as much as not even having to put a walk over for a team this season, being able to fulfill fixtures.

And I think that that can only be good rolling into this next season.

Carl (1:14:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, the thing is, some clubs have always lived on the coattails of the past. Portsmouth probably fell into that trap a little bit. There was a very good area when that was there and lads probably still lived on that story rather than making their own mark within the bit. And as you said, everything changed on the accessibility of the bar. The bar...

MARK WITCHER (1:14:21)
I completely agree.

Carl (1:14:39)
if your club's not doing as well as, they've changed it down at Gosport. They understand not everyone is gonna go and stay there and get battered and then end up in Emma's every sort of Saturday. But it's a stipulation of every game. Just come up for one drink, buy a Coke, have your Scran, get on the road, just show your face. See the supporters, see the people that are willing to stay there, that have stayed there and come down, watch Gosport

Portsmouth got such an amazing set up, you've got the gym, you've got all those access pits, you've got the train that everyone can get in on, you've got a decent carpark, you've got, the platform is there, it's just, it kind of got to a peak and then it just fell off while everyone was holding on thinking everyone was carrying on up.

MARK WITCHER (1:15:27)
Yeah, and I think taking it for granted. I think it's kind of like, it's all right. We've packed the clubhouse out before. We pack out every week. And the stuff you just said about then, when we were vets, one of the stipulations was you couldn't leave before six or you paid your little fine. And nobody really left before six. I'm driving, you had a couple of co -ops and you stayed because you didn't want to pay your fine. But you're right. But I think that also, I want to sort of tip my hat a little bit to...

Carl (1:15:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:15:54)
the volunteers that have come and gone, but also having volunteers in the right area. So this, at the moment, we've got a couple of really good media guys. We've got people now that are, we're sort of getting right people in the right places that actually sort of know what they're doing, but also know where to seek out the help from. And I don't mean just the social media, but for example, we've got a bar manager in there now that's run bars or

he's there on behalf of the club, rather than running it as an independent business kind of thing. You know, we've got coaches and players that are talking now. We've got a social media set up that are trying to promote, you know, increase the visibility online, And actually it looks eye catching and looks like...

Carl (1:16:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:16:37)
people want to be involved in it. So I think that we have to use that and we have to be aware of that and not take it for granted. And I think that that's there now and they're kind of trying to tap into that a little bit. We're trying to get the people that don't play anymore, trying to get them up. What would make you come back to the club for a match day? Or what can we do to help you come back to us? Like you said, I'm really proud for it to be the city side.

Carl (1:16:59)
Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:17:06)
It would be lovely if we were mirroring what the football club were doing. But we can do it. We can have these small steps. We'd gather steam eventually. And I think we're getting there. We are gathering a bit of pace. And hopefully this season it's another one where we can just push on a little bit more.

Carl (1:17:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

You've got a new DOR as well, haven't you? Jordan's stepped in there, is that correct?

MARK WITCHER (1:17:29)
Yeah, Jordan's had a year. Yeah, and what I like about Jordan is that he's got a younger perspective on it. He says he's still playing, but I'll be one of the judges of that. It's how you play the good game. I was never going to mention it. But also what's good is that Jordan took a bit of time out and went to another club and maybe saw how parts of that were run. And so what he's

Carl (1:17:41)
Did he ever play originally? Yeah.

Yeah.

MARK WITCHER (1:17:57)
He's fresh from playing, if you like, and maybe knows some of the pitfalls that the guys are experiencing. But also he's keen to listen. Yeah, he was with me for a bit when we coached the Valkyries. he knows that we all want to sort of like support him, but also he's keen to support us. And I think that's really important. And I know you get DORs that are either very playing orientated or might be a little bit off the park.

orientated, but I think Jordan's really, really working hard to try and pull all elements together. And I think that will be part of our progress, certainly this year.

Carl (1:18:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, fair play to him. It's no easy feat. He's got a little one just arrived as well, hasn't he? So he's got his hands full. He's keeping himself busy there trying to pull it all together.

MARK WITCHER (1:18:42)
Yeah, absolutely.

Carl (1:18:43)
It's again, it's just one of them. I think grassroots, a lot of lads dropped off because of COVID. A lot of teams are in rebuild as well. I think that's probably an element of it. I remember going to Portsmouth and ended up playing their fours and then there was a lot of clubs, Gosport had the threes. Those clubs, those extra players fill up the rest of it and fill up the bar usually because the threes and the fours are usually your socials that end up drinking your bar dry.

That's kind of gone from the game as well, which I think probably doesn't help a lot of clubs.

MARK WITCHER (1:19:12)
Yeah.

Carl (1:19:16)
I think we could carry on for days, Mark, to be honest, but it's brilliant to have had you on, mate, and some absolute gems on there as well, mate. So I'm sure we can throw some hand grenades at other people and see if they want to answer the call in as well off the back of this.

MARK WITCHER (1:19:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good to chat.

Good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Carl (1:19:37)
Top man, brilliant. Cheers, Mark. Thanks for your time, mate. Really appreciate it.

MARK WITCHER (1:19:39)
You're welcome. Hey, no problem. It's my pleasure mate. I look forward to it. Take it easy, pal. Bye mate. Bye bye.

Carl (1:19:43)
Take it easy pal, cheers mate, bye bye

Carl (1:19:45)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues. So in today's episode, we discuss Mark Witchers rugby journey as a one club man, then coaching the Portsmouth Valkyries and Hampshire women's with some amazing, amazing results in there with an unbeaten season of throwing the mix as well. Hope you enjoyed the ranting and ramblings about the game.

as we have a few more ready for next week's pod. We welcome Russell Earnshaw on to discuss his rugby journey from winning the European Cup with Bath to playing for the Babas and being told he would never be able to play for them again after going on a typical Babas drinking vendor. It's a really great chat about coaching, rugby, self -development. So can't wait to get that one out for everyone to see and hear.

Once again, a huge thank you to you all for tuning in. Thank you and goodbye.