Episode 5 - The Liam Perkins Interview - The transition from National League player to Head Coach

Liam Perkins shares his rugby journey, starting from a young age at Gosport and Fareham Rugby Club and progressing through the ranks. He talks about his time at Newbury, Ealing Trailfinders, and Worthing, where he served as club captain. Liam then discusses his current role as a player-coach at Petersfield Rugby Club and the club's aspirations to become one of the best clubs in Hampshire. He also mentions the challenges of sustaining a club at higher levels and the importance of building a strong foundation. The conversation covers topics such as the transition year at Liam's former rugby club, the challenges of coaching and playing at the same time, the players Liam has played with who made it to the professional level, the players who didn't make it but should have, the future of rugby and the need for accessibility and growth, and Liam's aspirations as a coach.

Transcript

Carl (00:12)
Hello and welcome to the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This podcast wants to shine a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl, I'm an avid rugby fan and regularly injured player. Thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to say a massive thank you to everyone that's been following our socials and supporting this journey so far. We'd love to get more feedback from you on the topics discussed.

and also guests you'd like to see on the pod. This week we have another great guest on. We've managed to catch up with Liam Perkins, who has had an illustrious career through the National League Rugby. Now player coach at Petersfield RFC, we were able to discuss Liam's journey through his rugby career, which saw him part of the Ealing team that got promoted to NAT1.

Also, whilst playing at Worthing, Liam got to see first hand the Quins development system and current and future internationals development. One current England international took half a season to show his true potential at Worthing, but after that Christmas, Liam actually turned around and said he felt sorry for the players that this international came up against. Before the interview,

We want to run through the scores from this weekend's Papa John's Community Cup Finals, which were played across the country with games played at Twickenham, Sixways, Shaftesbury Park and DMP. One thing that I will say, these score lines have taken a little bit of time to compile as in usual rugby fashion, the social media presence from the RFU for all results was pretty lacking. However, we got there in the end and it looks to have been some amazing games over the weekend.

So we start off with Twickenham. So on the 11th, we had the Regional One Championship Final, which saw Heath take on Barnstable. That ended on a 35 all draw, which Heath won on first try scored. So kind of a weird way to end a final, but I'm sure due to timings of all the other games around it, there was a reason behind that. Regional Two Championship.

was played between Northampton Old Scouts and Southend Saxons. Southend Saxons won 26 -35, which, looking at their social media, means they've won the quadruple this season. So what a season for Southend Saxons by the looks of it as well. Next game was Counties One Championship. That was played between Longlevens and Widnes Longlevens won 25 -19.

Counties II Championship was played between Brunel University and Old Rutlandshens. Old Rutlandshens won 41 -43, so another close game there by the looks of it. On the Sunday at Twickenham, the Women's Championship Playoff was played between Thurrock and Cheltenham Tigers. Cheltenham Tigers run out 42 -10 winners. The Women's Intermediate Cup.

was played between Lichfield and Old Albanian second 15. Old Albanians won 12 -7. The Women's Junior Cup was played between Sheffield Tigers and Thurrock second 15. Thurrock run out 36 -14 winners. The Counties Three Championship was played between Old Elfamillians against Wigan.

and Old Elthamians won 45 -22. So over at Sixways on Saturday, the regional one plate was played between Oundle and Wirral. Oundle won 24 -12. The regional one shield was played between Leek and Stoke on Trent. Stoke run out 34 -17 winners. Women's intermediate plate was also played between

Workington Zebra Finches against Westcliffe. Workington come out 22 -10 winners. Women's junior plate was played between Holden and Peter Lee. They played Oxford Harlequins. Oxford Harlequins run out 59 -26 winners. Up at the DMP over the weekend, there was

The regional two North plate was played between Moulton and Norton versus Lutterworth. Lutterworth come out 41 -28 winners. The counties one North plate was played between the Old Winneans against Bradford Salem. Bradford won 54 -41. I believe that is now Bradford on for the treble.

They get to play in the Yorkshire plate this weekend, the weekend coming, I believe. Counties two North plate was played between Ashbourne and Ripon. Ripon won 31 -14. Counties three North plate was between Wallsend and Tupton. Wallsend run out 26 -5 winners.

Regional 2 North Shield was played on the Sunday between Keswick and Olney. Keswick won 2017. The Counties 1 North Shield was played between Peterborough Lions and Beverley. Beverley won 58 -33. Counties 2 North Shield was between Dinnington and Huntington and District. Dinnington won 72 -24.

Counties three, North Shield was played between York R .I. and Ashton Under lyne. Ashton come out winners on 35 -28. The remainder of the games were played over at Shaftesbury Park held on the Saturday the regional two South Plate, which Drybrook took on Reeds -Weybridge. Reeds run out 42 -29 winners.

The Counties 1 South Plate was played between Kingsbridge and Twickenham, with Kingsbridge winning 36 -28. The Counties 2 South Plate was played between Harrow and Smiths Rugby. Smiths Rugby won 31 -29. Counties 3 South Plate was played between Widden Oldboys and Worth Oldboys. Worth Oldboys won 53 -14. On the Sunday,

The regional two South Shield was played between Graves End and Newbury Blues. Newbury run out 25 -8 winners. The county's one South Shield was then played between Midsomer North and Ashford. Midsomer North won 39 -38 with a last minute kick to decide that game.

The county's two South Shield was then afterwards with Cirencester playing Saracens Amateurs with Saracens running out 44 -16 winners. The county's three South Shield was then played between Old Glynonians and Cranleigh with Old Glynonians winning 22 -21. So as you can see from some of those scorelines coming across,

It's been an absolute phenomenal weekend for the Papa John's Community Trophy winners and also the losers to get the opportunity to play in some exceptional, exceptional stadiums out there. So no further ado, let's get to the interview with Liam Perkins and discuss his journey throughout rugby.

Carl (07:30)
Well, we have Liam Perkins in today for our special guest on Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Liam, thank you for coming on, mate. Really appreciate it.

Liam Perkins (07:39)
Yeah, no problem. Yeah, it's good to be on.

Carl (07:41)
Obviously we go through some normal questions on the podcast. So obviously a little bit intro from yourself, how you got into rugby, where you've been, what you've done, and then we sort of delve a bit further as we go along, mate.

Liam Perkins (07:55)
Yep, man, no worries.

Carl (07:56)
what got you into rugby? How did you get into it? And where did you start the journey and where's the journey taken you?

Liam Perkins (08:06)
So I started at, what are the points, under sixes, so the youngest age group you can start at down at Gosport Park for Gosport and Fareham So I was a slightly larger child growing up.  So my parents thought rugby would be  a good sport to get me into. No one in my family had been rugby people at all, so they were sort of stepping into the unknown a little bit.  But it really just started with a...

Carl (08:20)
Hehehe.

okay.

Liam Perkins (08:34)
an idea to let me blow off a little bit of steam. So I say, especially being a bit of a bigger child when I was younger. So yeah, that's where it started. I've stayed with Gosport from all the way through the minis up until the end of Colts.  So I'll say about 12 or 13 years or so, all through the age groups of Gosport. Made a couple of first team appearances for Gosport in my last year of Colts for...

Carl (08:37)
Yep.

Was that under the Wellesley era? Was that in that, yeah.

Liam Perkins (09:01)
Yeah, it was. Yeah, I had the privilege of playing with my coach, Di Whitehead, who coached me all through the age groups. He was still playing long after I left, actually, probably, but he was still playing when I made my first team debut. So that was a nice thing to have done at Gosport, to be honest.

Carl (09:08)
Ah, what a man, what a hero

Yeah.

Yaaaayyyyessss

Yeah, yeah, he's  a legend, though. I think he's still had the occasional run out now. I think he still laces his boots up here and there. So after the Gosport then, what happened  there? Did you get approached, or did you think, actually, I could probably make a move here, or was there...

Liam Perkins (09:28)
He certainly is, yeah.

Yes.

So I had no ambitions whatsoever to ever really sort of play any National League stuff or even any ideas of being paid to play rugby  at any level. I didn't really think that was a viable sort of option for me, having not played any academies or anything like that. It's a little bit isolated down in the South Coast, the Gosport, no real academies around, didn't go to a school which even played rugby. So  there was no real sort of pathway for me and I didn't really ever really see that as a...

Carl (09:55)
Mm -hmm.

Liam Perkins (10:14)
as an option, it wasn't even a consideration. I was playing county on the 20s at the time and my coach, Mike Marchant, who's Joe Marchant's dad, yes, he asked me to come up to Newbury for pre -season training where he was a second team coach at the time. And to be honest, I spent the pre -season just doing a lot of running and holding bags for the first team boys. They were level two at the time before it was the championship.

Carl (10:19)
Mm -hmm.

How are you?

Okay.

Liam Perkins (10:42)
in effect the championship before it was a professional league. So I just sort of thought, well, yeah, I see how I go now. I really enjoyed the training, got really fit, played some second, sort of had the expectations of players and second team stuff with them. I then get a phone call on the Friday evening before the first league game, which was away at Cornish Pirates saying, we've had two boys, we've had two boys drop out Liam, he needs to be on the coach in half an hour. So that,

Carl (11:08)
What from Gosports you have to get from Gosport to Newbury which is rough for anyone that doesn't know is roughly an hour's journey really in it. So did you make it? Did you make it?

Liam Perkins (11:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so straight all the stuff just about, yeah, all the stuff in the kit bag and then down to Penzance on the Friday. And then, yeah, I made my debut against Cornish Pirates away. My last adult rugby game being Farnham away I would have been level seven probably. And then three months later playing level two away at Cornish Pirates, which was a little bit of an eye opener.

Carl (11:24)
Whoa, that's a proper shift.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Liam Perkins (11:44)
Shall we say.

Carl (11:45)
How did that game go? How was the step up?

Liam Perkins (11:50)
I can't really remember to be honest, it was a bit of a blur. I do remember everyone being a lot bigger than me. I've always been very tall but I was probably about two stone lighter than I am now so I don't really know how I coped. It was definitely a baptism of fire, I played with some pretty handy players down there. It was when Newbury were a pretty tidy outfit.

Carl (11:52)
Really?

Yeah, yeah.

Liam Perkins (12:14)
And that's when it really started, to be honest. I didn't feel massively out of place. And that's when I sort of thought, well, maybe there might be something in it for me really, playing at that sort of level, earning a little bit of money, doing the thing I love. So, yeah, that's where it all started really.

Carl (12:24)
Yeah.

So what season would, what year would that have been?

Liam Perkins (12:35)
So that would have been 16 years ago, so, or 15 years ago, so yeah, probably the 08, 09 season, probably, yeah.

Carl (12:38)
2008, 2009.

So what, how much were you sort of taking in your pocket? Yeah.

Liam Perkins (12:49)
I was very naive. I was very, very naive then. I think I was probably getting hundred pound a game But when I sort of looked...

Carl (12:55)
How much was left beyond the bar as well?

Liam Perkins (12:58)
Well, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But when you total up how much it costs when you go away, paying a fair bit of food and a couple of beers here, it probably cost me money. But I'll say I was so naive about what rugby players got paid at that level at that time. There was probably players earning pretty much their full -time wage playing for that team at that time. And I was there sort of picking up a little bit of pocket money. So, but...

Carl (13:06)
Yeah, yeah, that's it, yeah.

really?

So what actually happened to Nubri then? How did that sort of come to an end?

Liam Perkins (13:25)
So we got relegated that year. I probably played eight or nine games that year, which I was happy with. I went on loan to Havent for the second half of the season that year, but Newbury actually got relegated. They finished fifth bottom and it was the year they restructured to the actual championship. So I think they went down fifth bottom, so really unlucky. And then soon after that, Vodafone, who was the biggest sponsor.

Carl (13:31)
Right. Yep.

Okay. Yep.

Bye.

Yeah. Right, okay.

Liam Perkins (13:51)
pulled all the money. So things went downhill quite quickly for the club after that. I carried on and played another two years for Newbury after that in national one and national two as well. So I played for them for three years and got relegated three times. So yeah, it wasn't easy.

Carl (14:01)
okay.

Not ideal, mate. So after that, then after the cascade through the leagues by the sounds of it, what with you ended up over at Worthing, is that correct?

Liam Perkins (14:21)
I went to Worthing for, I was recovering from an injury and so I knew the coach Will Green down there who got me across. I played a couple of games, didn't really have much of an impact, that was towards the end of the season. Didn't particularly enjoy my first spell there for whatever reason and that's when I was approached by Ealing Trail Finders who were doing very well in National One at the time.

Carl (14:27)
Yep.

Mm -hmm.

Okay.

Mm -hmm.

Liam Perkins (14:49)
And they come in for me that off season, signed for Ealing, which was a huge commitment for me because I was living down in Portsmouth and traveling up to West London three times a week. Yes, and got approached by Ealing. I thought, you know, why not just give it a crack? I love playing that level. I thought, I want to carry on doing it. So to have that opportunity was amazing. And to be honest, that probably the two years I spent at Ealing.

Carl (14:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Liam Perkins (15:16)
probably learned 90 % of what I've learned in rugby in those two years and the coaching was fantastic.

Carl (15:19)
Yeah, yeah.

So that was what, potentially what, 2011, 2012 season? Was that roughly?

Liam Perkins (15:28)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would have been around then, yeah, yeah.

Carl (15:31)
So you've done a couple of years there, was that a couple of years that they were stuck in that one or were they?

Liam Perkins (15:35)
Yes, we finished second in the first National One year and then got promoted the second year. So I didn't play as much in the second year because I played a hell of a lot of money and had some amazing players there. So probably played 10 or 12 games in the first year and then probably about the same the second year. But I can say I was part of the squad which went up to the championship, which was pretty special.

Carl (15:42)
Okay.

what an experience, still. I'll bet it is.

I can imagine, yeah.

Liam Perkins (16:03)
And then from there, then it was a decision about, you know, professional rugby and all that entails. So.

Carl (16:12)
So obviously, what made you decide, obviously, because everyone that probably knows you, you went back to Worthing after the Ealing promotion, correct? What made you make that decision? Was it because you didn't think rugby had that long -term viable option as a career? Or was there other doubts within your mind? Or obviously, as we discussed, you've got a family, did that come along at the same time?

Liam Perkins (16:22)
Yeah, yeah.

No, so I was given the opportunity to stay on for another season, but the director of rugby at the time was quite clear with me that it would be very much a squad player. It would likely make some British and Irish Cup appearances if I was lucky, but outside of that pretty much a squad player. But the expectation on training and attendance was the same as the professional members of the squad. So when I sort of totaled up what the sort of...

Carl (16:43)
Okay.

Right.

Liam Perkins (17:08)
package would have been for the games I was playing. I just, the money was, I mean, I couldn't have afforded my mortgage to be honest. So the level of, I could have taken the punt for a year and said I was a professional rugby player, but that's probably would have been a name only to be honest. So yeah, exactly. And I think I was quite realistic at the time when I was looking at the players around me thinking I don't.

Carl (17:16)
Right, okay.

Yeah, yeah.

doesn't pay you mortgage does it?

Liam Perkins (17:33)
think that I'm good enough to make that step and make a real crack at it. I did know that National League was probably my level, as a decent National League player. So I took the decision, I approached Worthing myself as a sort of localish National League club to Portsmouth and ended up spending 10 years there. So I very much enjoyed my second stint.

Carl (17:41)
You're sealing, yeah.

Okay.

Exactly, so how quickly were you become club captain over at Worthing as well? Correct, so was that a fairly instant or was that a couple the seasons in or? Okay.

Liam Perkins (18:02)
Yeah, yeah, well, I'll find out.

I think that was about, I think that was three seasons in or four seasons in maybe, but I spent five years as club captain in two stints. It's probably my third or fourth season I become club captain. Held that for four years, gave it up for a couple of years and then took it back again for my final year there. So.

Carl (18:14)
Right.

Okay. Nice.

What, because the captain before wasn't doing a good enough job compared to you? Drop those clangers in here.

Liam Perkins (18:30)
Well, yeah, I don't want to name any names.  Yeah, no, we had a new coaching team come in under Jordan Turner -Hall from Quins. And he really sort of shook things up and got the boys playing some pretty tasty rugby. And that was the last two years at Worthing. And definitely my two most enjoyable years of rugby  under Jordan. We played some fantastic rugby, had some great players there.

Carl (18:38)
Okay.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

So obviously you've now sort of, you're over at Petersfield. Player coach, is that the official title or is it more coach or?

Liam Perkins (19:06)
Yeah, no, no, there was always going to be a couple of years of transition as well. That's how I sold it to my missus anyway. I want to get into coaching because I can't see myself not being involved in rugby in some capacity. So, but I did feel I had a couple of good years left in me at National League. But I just had a really good opportunity from Petersfield and I saw it as a way of transitioning from the play into the coaching.

Carl (19:13)
Fair enough, that's the easiest way. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Liam Perkins (19:36)
via player coaching at a slightly lower level.

Carl (19:38)
It's a great setup as well as Petersfield because you've got a great platform of players of that level. You just got promoted as well, correct? Level six. So at level seven, they were a very, very good side, but potentially be classified more of a sort of a yo -yo team. They were very good at being able to get up to the top and kind of...

Liam Perkins (19:49)
We've just got up to level six. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, they've sort of, they've gone between sort of level seven and eight quite a lot through the years. We've gone up into level six, that's the highest the club's ever been, which is fantastic for the club. But when I was approached to go there by Jason Ford, was sort of trying to put the coaching team together. I set up a meeting with the chairman, Stu Barden, who is the most supportive bloke I've ever met in my life. He's fantastic.

Carl (20:04)
dropped off too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Ready?

Liam Perkins (20:30)
Just getting the feeling from the chairman, Fordy, and then knowing the players they had there, I knew that we'd be able to do something this year. You'd probably call them underachievers when you look at some of the boys they've got on their squad. I look around and think there's half a dozen lads who wouldn't look out of place at a Worthing with the right guidance. So knowing that, I was sort of...

Carl (20:35)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yep.

Liam Perkins (20:55)
Pretty sure I wasn't setting myself up for a fall, so I knew there was a lot of good things in place that we could have a real crack at it this season and obviously we'd done very well.

Carl (20:57)
Yeah.

So how many players did you have to recruit? Or did you kind of, did you have a blank canvas? It was a case of like the lads knew whether they were coming or going. It was, or you come in, you assessed everyone, stood back and said, actually, I know this player could do this, or actually I'll need to go and bring a load of lads across and start from.

Liam Perkins (21:23)
So before committing, like I say, I don't know if you know Jason Ford, he's done a lot of stuff in the local rugby, a few clubs in the local area, you know, respect that guy massively. And when he was saying to me, if we get X, Y and Z in the door, we'll do very, very well. You know, I trusted his judgment on that. There was a lot of returning players who hadn't played rugby for a season or two at Peter's for whatever reason.

Carl (21:36)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Okay.

Right.

Liam Perkins (21:52)
So we worked really hard on getting those boys back in the door and back engaged in the club. We had a couple of lads come across from Worthing who were sort of coming towards the end of their playing careers like myself, which obviously bolstered and gave us some great experience to go along with the Petersfield boys because it's mainly Petersfield lads. There's the vast majority of Petersfield lads in that squad.

Carl (22:07)
Yep.

It's kind of like, it's nice to let people that don't know Peter's field as well. It's kind of, it's in the sticks to an extent. It's kind of on the outskirts of Portsmouth in it, but it's not quite far up, far enough up the A3 to be its own sort of entity. So you kind of grab players that probably can't get into Havant sort of set up potentially. And you've got lads that will have to come across as well. So it kind of.

Liam Perkins (22:40)
Yeah, yeah.

Carl (22:46)
creates its own group and its own ethos in itself at Petersfield. And you can see that through the age group system as well that they've got up there. They've got a really good, sort of they've got the new, they've got a new stand open, is that correct? I've moved away a little while ago.

Liam Perkins (22:49)
Hmm.

Yeah, so they,  the thing with Petersfield is they're definitely doing things the right way, getting the infrastructure in place. So the facilities are great, the gym's brilliant, you know, they've got four floodlit pitches, the ground staff are brilliant, the pitches are playable almost always.  The facilities for that level are fantastic and that's something I really try to drill into the lads this season is like,

Carl (23:06)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (23:28)
They don't really know how lucky they are because there's clubs at level three and four who could only dream of having facilities like that. So they've got a really good basis in place. And if we can just sort of keep the sort of buzz going that we've got in the squad at the moment, coupled with the facilities they've got, the vision of the chairman, we want to make it an attractive place to play. We want to be able to attract people.

Carl (23:29)
Nah.

Liam Perkins (23:54)
and make it a more successful club because they've got everything in place to do that with or without me to be honest.

Carl (24:00)
What is the target?  Where  is Petersfield going to go? Are they going to be trying to compete against the likes of Havant and push up towards the National Leagues? Is that what the chairman's got or is he just building a well -established club within  the leagues?

Liam Perkins (24:12)
I think.

Realistically, they're a community club, which is fine. That's absolutely fine. The idea that the chairman gave me was he wants to be one of the best clubs in Hampshire. So when I look at who, OK, well, until having got promoted, what level was the best club at Hampshire? OK, well, they're level five. So then I'm thinking, OK, well, that's two promotions from where we started to the beginning of the season just gone.

Carl (24:24)
Mm -hmm.

Liam Perkins (24:46)
I don't think that's outside of the realms of possibilities. Obviously things will get harder. We'll have to  put different things in place to compete at that level. But I don't think there's any plans to go above that because as soon as you go up to level four, you're into semi -professionalism and playing players. So that's a massive, massive jump and a huge commitment and gamble for a club like Petersfield And I don't think there's a desire for that. But if we can get to...

Carl (24:56)
Mm -hmm.

Yep.

Liam Perkins (25:15)
being considered one of the best and highest level Hampshire clubs, I think that would be mission accomplished.

Carl (25:19)
Yep.

Yeah, because the likes of Camberley they've kind of gone on that little run as well. They kind of come out of obscurity and really they've put a couple of quid in, I think, and gone up through the leagues as well. Obviously, East Grinstead did it previously, but that's all come tumbling down. But Camberley have gone on and sort of pushed on as well. It is doable in those leagues, but I think you've got obviously, as you say, the chairman or whoever's back in the club's got to realise there is probably a point.

Liam Perkins (25:35)
Hmm.

Carl (25:52)
And I think that's the downside to rugby as in the UK. There's teams that can get promoted out of, in football, you can go all the way up, you can get to like level four, level five, and there's the money, there's a significant money there to support those sort of clubs. Whereas rugby is the top two tiers at the bush, and as you probably know, championship players and stuff.

Liam Perkins (25:57)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Carl (26:20)
they can't even make it viable. As you said, it wasn't really a viable package for you to potentially become a championship player up at Ealing. So  you don't get that  depth of availability for top level rugby, which is a real shame because clubs like Petersfield and Havant and stuff like that, they could probably stick out and be that Southern.

representative in the in the top of leagues because we don't have that as you said, Quins is the closest at the minute or even Ealing's a lick as you said, West London and Richmond's probably potentially the closest championship club in that sense as well and it's

Liam Perkins (26:54)
Hmm.

Yeah, it's so difficult for clubs to take that step in that gamble because, I mean, when I was with Ealing, winning every week in National 1, they were getting 300 people to watch. And when you think about what some of the players are probably getting paid there, they obviously have a money man, they did then, they're still the same guy. But as a business model, it's not great when you're only getting a few hundred people through the door to pay.

Carl (27:05)
Yeah.

Liam Perkins (27:28)
you can't really justify the match fees for players. So yeah, it's obviously difficult. I've never blamed players who will take the money which is on offer to them at all though because you're like, rugby career is very, very short and if you can earn a little bit doing something you love, then why wouldn't you? But I've seen so many clubs come and go in the National Leagues through the years who, like the Soka facilities at Petersfield, like some clubs who literally have nothing, Havant even got their own pitch or changing rooms, but they're paying players five which round a game.

Carl (27:31)
Nah.

it.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (27:57)
sort of thing, well what's the priority for the club? Because you're never going to get the facilities in place if you're shelling out all your cash on players. You need to get some sort of base in place before doing that.

Carl (28:00)
Yeah.

 and I think Petersfield as you said, they've kind of got that the right way around. I think Havant obviously had the,  maybe the luck of the draw. I might be selling that a little bit short, but obviously they managed to get the funding for their floodlit pitch, which probably saved them as a club to an extent, because playing at a way at Havant it was,  well, it was in the middle of Leigh Park most of those pitches back in the day, but they were not the best maintained and they...

Liam Perkins (28:33)
Yeah.

Carl (28:36)
They probably lost a lot of games because of flooding, etc. etc. because it was brought by the creek. So I think that floodlit pitch has probably allowed them to push on and I think that's probably helped them really well as well. But they've not kept that as a closed access of they to be fair. They allow that for a lot of clubs around, which is really good.

Liam Perkins (28:46)
100 % like, yep.

So Havant for me, like they have done things completely the right way. So obviously they had their fingers burned and went down the leagues a little bit, having paid players for a time and obviously played at a decent level when the leagues were first set up. But they've got all of the things in place now, good facilities, they've got great support off the pitch, good coaching set up, great director of rugby there. They've created an atmosphere that makes players want to go and play there, whether they get paid or not. So like they've done...

I'm really happy to see them up in the National Leagues now to see how they get on and give that a crack. But they've definitely sort of built from the bottom up. That's the way it seems to me, looking from the outside.

Carl (29:37)
Do you reckon they need a little bit of a rebuild for next season or do you think they've got the depth of players there to really give next season a punt?

Liam Perkins (29:50)
It's such an attritional league. So like 26 game season, I mean, it used to be 30 game seasons in national two, but now it's 26. So it's a little bit less. It is such an attritional league. So like squad depth is huge. If I'm honest, I don't know too much about, you know, their plans about bringing players in and all this sort of stuff. I think they're starting to offer some match fees for next season. So obviously that'd be a bit of a draw to some players. But yeah, certainly like going up into that league.

Carl (29:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

some.

Liam Perkins (30:18)
I know it's going to be, it will be tough. It will be tough. I hope they stay up it. I'm sure it will be a difficult year for them, but they've got some fantastic players there. So if they can keep their squad fit, I'm sure they'll do okay.

Carl (30:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, because obviously they'll be coming up against Worthing next year as well, which is probably the closest local derby that you could probably get in that sort of region. Worthing have kind of dropped off a little bit compared to what you, as you said previously. Is that a change of personnel? Is there something more to that?

Liam Perkins (30:35)
Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

So there was a big, the coaches were there for two years, my last two years. The head coach Jordan was leaving, the director of rugby had left as well. And it definitely felt like a bit of a transition year. It always would have been a transition year this year. That's part of the reason why I left. I...

Carl (30:58)
Mm

Bye.

Mm -hmm.

Liam Perkins (31:16)
I'd done 10 years, over 180 games for the club. Love the club, loved the people there, but it sort of felt like the right time for me to step aside as well and let that transition happen because we're the best will in the world and I'm not going to be doing it forever. Other people need to take on that responsibility and leadership role in the squad. So, yeah, it just felt like the right time because there's a lot of changes going on there at that time.

Carl (31:24)
step aside and...

Nah.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (31:44)
In hindsight, sometimes I feel like I wish I would have stayed and helped him out a bit more this year, but then by an old boy like me, probably wouldn't have made any difference to the way they finished this year. So I've been down and watched him a couple of times this season, which has been good. Get down there whenever I can. But I think it was always going to be a transition year for him. We've changed coaches, DOR going, there's just a few changes going on around the club. So I think that'll be, I think that'll do much better next season, I'm sure that will.

Carl (32:11)
Is that just, do you think that's tweaked? I know I'm probably putting you on the spock here a bit, but is that tweaked or do you think there's a bigger problem at Worthing or is it just a case of that sort of nucleus a player has sort of come to an end and they've not rebuilt earlier than they potentially needed to?

Liam Perkins (32:27)
I think with rugby, as I'm sure you know, you can't buy experience. Well, you can if you pay someone enough. But without, I'm not being big headed here, but I left my best mate, Matt McLean left with me. He's my co -head coach at Petersfield. So we both left.

Carl (32:34)
No. Not a nap too as well, it depends.

Highest points scorer ever at Worthing? Wow, yeah, so... That's hard to replace.

Liam Perkins (32:52)
He's the all -time National League point scorer. So that's some real pedigree. Exactly. So you've got first captain leaving, you've got National League all -time point scorer leaving at the same time. I don't think any amount of youngsters can replace the experience in a squad like that. They've had a lot of young players playing this season who will be all the better for this season though.

Carl (33:05)
Yeah.

Liam Perkins (33:19)
There'll be several who will be much better players for that and I'm sure they'll go on and have a much better year next year. But yeah, there's obviously a nagging feeling that I'll feel a little bit bad for having left them and then doing so badly this year, but it's one of those things I couldn't have gone forever.

Carl (33:35)
Yeah, I think you'd have probably felt worse by staggering that exit. Do you know what I mean? Like, you'd have probably, rather than, you'd have felt more become of a coach. Do you think that was an option? Do you think you could have... Okay.

Liam Perkins (33:48)
I was offered a player coaching role at Worthing. Having sort of been played there for 10 years and been skipper, you know, all the young players that have come through I'd known since they were 19 coming into the, and I just didn't think that was probably the best way to start my coaching, to be around loads of people who've known me exactly, because they've known me socially and all that sort of stuff.

Carl (34:02)
Yeah.

Nice, it's hard to get that message across, yeah.

Liam Perkins (34:15)
And whilst they might respect you as a captain, a coach is a completely different thing. So I did feel it was very important for me to step away for a couple of years at least and maybe go back in the future.

Carl (34:26)
well, there we go. There's a... There we go. Headlines are all rewritten. Liam returns. So, I'll ask this to every guest. When you've played, obviously, you've played to a very good standard as it is. So, a lot of players have probably made it. Who did you play with that made it and was it obvious? Like, who's gone...

Liam Perkins (34:27)
If they have me. Yeah. Yeah.

Carl (34:53)
A lot of people have sort of said they've got, they're no players that have played in the Premiership Obviously if you tap in around the championship, I'm expecting sort of a World Cup winner here Liam Perfect, here we go, right.

Liam Perkins (34:54)
So, so.

I can't give you a World Cup winner, I can give you a World Cup player, but not a World Cup winner. So Joe Marchant for me, it wasn't immediately obvious. He was on loan from Harlequins with us, at Worthing for a season. Probably would have been 2018, something like that. Maybe 2017, maybe. So he would have been 19 -ish.

Carl (35:11)
Ta.

Right.

Okay.

okay. Right. Yep.

Liam Perkins (35:30)
Um, and the funny sort of connection is his dad, Mike was my Hampshire coach growing up and Joe used to come along and run the water on Hampshire on the 18s and on the 20s, which is funny. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so, so he, he was at Worthing and he was actually playing in the twos at the start of the season, believe it or not. Um, and then towards Christmas time, second half of the season, I've never, I've never genuinely felt bad for an opposition before, apart from when Joe was playing.

Carl (35:38)
That must have been the quickest war you've ever seen, is it?

Okay.

Really?

Liam Perkins (36:00)
He was literally just completely unplayable. I don't know what happened after Christmas. The switch just flipped and he was just completely outrageous. I've never seen anything like it at that level. Just completely unplayable. And then the season after that, he won Quins Young Player of the Year.  He played a shedload of Premiership games. And obviously, you know, he went  on to play for England.  So he was definitely the one who I knew at the end of that year that he's something special at this point.

Carl (36:16)
Yeah.

Liam Perkins (36:29)
but it wasn't immediately obvious.

Carl (36:31)
didn't sort of turn up in the white boots and they kind of expected all of it.

Liam Perkins (36:36)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's quite shy, to be fair. At the start, so...

Carl (36:39)
Yeah, so obviously, Joe.

decent player there. So anyone else that you sort of played with that...

Liam Perkins (36:43)
Hmm. So we were lucky at Worthing for maybe six or seven years out of 10 that we had a really good link with Quinn's. So we'd have their first year Academy boys would come down, we'd have three or four a season. So probably out of four of them, one or two would then go on and play for Quinn's first team or internationally. We've had the likes of Dino Lamb who plays for Quinn's and Italy. He was with us for a season.

Carl (36:56)
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah. Good luck.

Liam Perkins (37:13)
Very, very good player. Lovely lad as well. Again, you knew he was going to go on like this 18 year old, 19 year old turning up and I'm looking up at him. He's probably three stone heavier than me at 19 years old. You know, you think this guy's got everything to be a proper, proper player. Yeah, I've been really lucky to play with a lot of players who've gone on to play a lot of first team games for Quins, which is probably one of the most enjoyable things of playing at Worthing to be honest.

to sort of see these boys coming through and then see them go on to do better things like Joe and Dino.

Carl (37:46)
Have they still got that link or is that a link that's possibly eased on a little bit that they haven't got that? Right.

Liam Perkins (37:51)
They had a few boys this year. They had a few Quins dual reg players this season again, which was good.

Carl (37:58)
Yeah.

Any that we need to look out for the future?

Liam Perkins (38:04)
No, I've only watched a couple of games so I wouldn't like to comment on that. We had one a couple of years ago, Cassius Cleves, who I think in two or three years' time you'll know his name, Cassius Cleves, a winger for Quins. I think he could be something special in a couple of years. Yeah, yeah, he's English lad, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's pretty tasty.

Carl (38:14)
Okay. Yep.

English lad.

Nice.

That then leads on to who did you play with that didn't make it but should've and what's the story behind it if there's a story behind it.

Liam Perkins (38:38)
So when I was sort of thinking about this question, there's one guy who popped out straight away,  a mutant of a second row at Worthing called Charlie McGowan,  six foot eight,  give or take, probably about 19, 20 stones of pure muscle.  No,  just completely destructive. He was coming towards the end of his playing when I had just sort of come to Worthing.

Carl (38:58)
Didn't need to jump in a line out by the sounds of it

Bye.

Liam Perkins (39:08)
But he was a sort of traditional old school second row, completely uncompromising. Couldn't necessarily pass the ball with his left hand, but second rows didn't need to then, so it's fine. He's definitely one that I really, really wonder how he didn't end up. Because he looks like a professional second row, plays like a professional second row, got all the attributes. So I don't know if it's a motivation thing he didn't want to, or he just wasn't picked up, just went under the radar.

Carl (39:10)
Yep.

No. No.

Right.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (39:33)
But he's definitely won. He played for the Barbarians when he was at Worthing. He played for England counties when he was at Worthing. This was all later on in his career. I think there's, I'm pretty sure, so Will Green, he played a prop for England. He was Worthing's coach for a time. And he, I think it was Daily Mail column or something, and he had to select his all -time 15, and he put Charlie McGowan in that second row. So it probably shows the sort of...

Carl (39:37)
Okay.

Yeah.

what level he was at, yeah. Wow.

Liam Perkins (40:02)
whatever we could have been at, you know? And he's a lovely, lovely man as well. Lovely bloke. Scary on the pitch, but he would say boo to a goose off the pitch. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Carl (40:10)
I can imagine six foot eight, you're open, he ain't clearing you out of a rut too. So never got the story, didn't know, sort of understood why, didn't make it, or just never quite asked.

Liam Perkins (40:22)
No, no, I don't know really. I mean, there's, you see a lot of players and you think, there must just be, it's like a 1 % thing, isn't it? You know, if you're not in the right place at the right time, you don't get picked up. If you're not fully committed to stuff off the pitch, like in the gym, you don't get the chance. It's really, really fine margins, I think.

Carl (40:31)
Yeah.

Do you think Rugby doesn't allow, 1 % is obviously a lot bigger in football because there's obviously probably a lot more leagues that are pro or at least a decent semi -pro. Do you think Rugby doesn't offer that capability because of, well, obviously the premiership's now ring -fenced at the minute for the 10 clubs. The championship's been ring -fenced for this season.

potentially next depending on ground and capacity sizes. Do you think we're ring -fencing the English leagues a little bit too much to protect the old guard and not allow development?

Liam Perkins (41:24)
Because of the money issue, you're relying on semi -professional rugby players or amateur rugby players to do stuff outside of their training nights. You're asking for a lot of motivation, a lot of commitment from young lads. A lot of them aren't getting paid to be putting in hours in the gym, extra skill work, all this sort of stuff. And if they're not getting paid for it, it's like you've got to be realistic, they've got a job. Whereas with...

Carl (41:29)
Hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Liam Perkins (41:52)
So I don't really know what pathway there is unless you're in an academy. I don't think there really is one that you see the odd player like Alex Dombran or whatever being picked up for university stuff. But I don't think there's that much of a pathway. Hmm. Yeah.

Carl (41:59)
Yeah. I think they had the eye on him for a long time before that though, didn't they, with Dom as it wasn't like it was somebody that I think he'd already turned down an academy to go and do his degree. So I think he'd kind of already been in or around that scene and they'd had enough of an eye on him to say, this is where it wants to go. But as you say,

Liam Perkins (42:11)
Right, it's go to uni. Yeah, yeah.

I think the time that they do definitely do very, very well, in my opinion, is when they farm out the Academy boys to National League clubs. So most Premiership teams will have a link with a National 2 club, a National 1 club, a Championship club. National 2, we normally get the first year Academy boys. National 1, they get the second year Academy boys. And then hopefully they're coming first -team rugby players, unless they're real anomalies like Marcus Smith, who just goes straight in as a 19 -year -old.

Carl (42:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (42:50)
into the first team. But I think that's definitely something which rugby does very well is they get the nippers out to the, you know, the National League stuff and their spurs a little bit, blood them in a little bit, playing against some horrible old players, learn the ropes. I think that's fantastic. But I don't think there's really much of a pathway for your bulk standard semi pro or amateur player, to be honest.

Carl (42:58)
Bluff them in a little bit, yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, nobody that's gonna get plucked out of nowhere and sort of... I'd mentioned this in the podcast that's coming out with Si Do you think rather than the LV Cup, do you think something similar to like an FA Cup style where say Saracens could go to Cornish Pirates or go to Worthing or have some sort of  FA Cup style...

Liam Perkins (43:14)
Hmm.

Carl (43:39)
cup tournament that allows to open up a bit of accessibility to the bigger leagues. Okay, it will take a while for some of the clubs to not get battered every week, but do you think that would add something to the English game and allow other clubs to be, to shoot for that star and aid development as well? Because players, as you said, players playing with better players makes better players.

It doesn't matter how much your club is new. As long as you've got experienced players that can help other players understand the game, and playing against players that's going to put them in a position that they learn from, do you think that that will improve the game?

Liam Perkins (44:07)
Hmm.

I just think that there's such a massive gulf between professional players and semi -pro, purely for the amount of gym work that boys can do. I don't think that's a viable thing for rugby, outside of professional going into semi -pro. I think it's such a massive gulf because you've got semi -pros who are doing Tuesday, Thursday nights for an hour and then do stuff on their own time versus professionals who are in the gym for a living.

Carl (44:25)
Do you think? Yeah.

Liam Perkins (44:49)
Yeah, because if you have one team in, say, National 2, who suddenly have an influx of cash, get a load of good players in, pay them some good money, they're beating teams in National 2 by 70, 80 points in the same league just because they've got a little bit of cash and they can get some better players in. So, sort of times that by 10, I think, if you're asking for a National League club to play against a championship club.

Carl (44:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Or maybe an adapted version then, maybe not the elite level, because what about the academy sides of those elite level clubs? Do you think that that would be a potential option rather than, as you say, completely like baptism of fire and throwing Saracens against Gosport? Do you know what? That sort of lunacy, but an academy...

Liam Perkins (45:27)
Hmm.

Yeah.

I do think the the Papa John's Cup stuff's pretty good. I know they play the same levels throughout the country. But if we're talking about Cup competitions, I think that's been a really, really good thing. This is the second year. This is the second year now. I think it was still called, yeah, yeah, yeah, Papa John's Community Cup. I think that's good to get a bit of a buzz around the Cup games, playing against some different clubs, that sort of stuff.

Carl (45:40)
Yeah, I do, yeah.

Mm. Is that the first year that's come in? Right. What was it called last year? Was it the Papa Johns? Was it?

Yeah, getting a Twickenham as well always helps.

Liam Perkins (46:06)
know  yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah so i think that's a really really good thing rugby doesn't do many good things to be honest and initiative wise so  hmm

Carl (46:14)
No, I think we've, yeah, we're kind of stuck in certain processes, aren't we? And it's trying to find a way out and me and Si discussed about before it come out in the general press,  the Saudis or the Qataris coming and putting some money in,  something's got to pump money into rugby for it to be able to push forward across the globe because we're missing a lot of opportunities  to grow that because of...

the traditions and we're probably of the same ilk. We love the traditions, we know they've got to be there, but we've also got to move with the times to make it accessible to as many, because the society's not the same as it used to be. Going on a rugby coach, I'm sure probably you coming back from your first game at the Cornish Pirates away, there's probably things that you probably try to forget still now to this day. But rugby's still, we...

Liam Perkins (46:55)
Thank you.

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Carl (47:12)
We love those traditions, but we've also got to keep those away, move with the times a little bit, make it accessible to as many people as possible.

Liam Perkins (47:18)
Well, I think the trouble is at the moment is rugby is definitely like an echo chamber. Like when you're in it, you think everyone loves rugby, everyone knows about rugby. But in reality, hardly anyone knows anything about rugby. So yeah, like to grow the game and make it's probably like saying making it more accessible, but it doesn't help that like to watch rugby on TV. It's all pay per view stuff. There's nothing like just switching your TV on for your casual viewer. Rugby is not on unless there's a Six Nations.

Carl (47:27)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (47:49)
So if you want to watch some Prem games, you've got to pay subscriptions for that. And I know that's the model that football follow, but they've got millions of people that subscribe to it. Whereas rugby, if you want to grow it in the first instance, you've got to make it as available in your face as much as possible, free, grow that follow and get people enjoying it and then try and garner some income off of it probably.

Carl (47:56)
Yeah. Correct.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think they obviously managed to get some Champions Cups games and Challenge Cup games on Channel 4 and maybe ITV now, but nowhere near enough, as you said, to make it accessible to somebody that accidentally clicks on Channel 4 on a Sunday afternoon and the game's on. TNT are apparently gonna make every game, every Premiership game available next season. But obviously, as you said, part of the subscription.

Liam Perkins (48:17)
Yeah.

Carl (48:41)
They can't be doing that on every... You can't make that as accessible by saying, well, this is now going to be every game. Are they going to put games on Monday nights, Tuesday nights? And then do you affect the fans that are going to the ground? Are you going to lose?

Liam Perkins (48:51)
Yeah.

So this is another issue as well, most of the people that watch rugby are involved in a rugby club in some capacity. So you're either taking your kids down there, you're playing, you're coaching, you're doing something at the club. Those are the people that would go and watch the game, but you're doing rugby stuff anyway. So you're like...

Carl (49:00)
Exactly that. Yeah.

Yeah.

I said this to Polly as well, I said to Polly, but do we, does rugby follow what football has done? Like lads that play football on a Saturday morning will go to say Fratton Park on a Saturday afternoon because the game's on a Saturday morning. But Polly said the games are now adaptable, but that's brilliant. The games might be adaptable, but are the pitches, are the setups, are the clubhouses, is the tradition holding rugby back?

moving  the demographic that are gonna watch a game or go and see a game  from moving it to playing in the morning because most of them are just gonna see that as we know, more drinking time after the game. So it's a hard balance to find. Do you move it to a weekday? But you then lose a lot of demographics, especially down Portsmouth Way to Quins on a Tuesday night, Wednesday night, any of that.

Liam Perkins (49:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Carl (50:04)
trying to get into South London, Twickenham, is going to be hard enough as it is. And it's not cheap anymore. The cost of living crisis, a lot of lads would have to probably leave work early, may lose a couple of quid. It's a really fine balance. And personally, I think the bubble's going to burst soon and a lot more rugby clubs are going to fall out of existence, which is a really scary place to be in.

Liam Perkins (50:32)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, definitely. It's obviously a bit of a crossroads. The game's definitely a crossroads because you don't want to lose, I personally wouldn't want to lose the traditions of rugby and what it means and the ethos of being part of a club and all this sort of stuff. It is very, very important for the game. But equally, if you want to grow the game, get more people watching, your casual viewers paying money or merchandise and going to see the games, then you need to...

Carl (50:32)
as a rugby fan.

Liam Perkins (50:59)
you need to have characters and people that are marketable and all that sort of stuff, you know, the highest level, which I think they are doing better at, you know, the likes of Atosje, like Marcus Smith, like players like that are really marketable and, you know, they've got Nike sponsorships and all this sort of stuff. They're definitely a lot more like accessible.

Carl (51:15)
Yeah, I think Marcus Smith is probably more. I think Marrow, Marrow's Marrow, I don't think he's one of them that's, he's very outlandish in that sense. He's very, he's a very clever human being and he's able to articulate himself very well. But I don't think he's going to be, like you've got the other end of the scale. You've got the Marlars, you've got the Haskells and you've got other players that are going to stand out. And it's finding that balance because NFL,

Everyone sells the dream, everyone's on the social media, everyone. Do you think the media management of rugby's a little bit too controlling and we've got to stay this fairy tradition?

Liam Perkins (51:54)
I do think you've got to be a little bit careful though because you don't want to sell your soul to the devil as well because a football player can't go on the tube and be pissed up after a game without getting photographed, mobbed and all this sort of stuff. Do rugby players want that? Do professional rugby players want that?

Carl (52:08)
Well, nor can Billy V. He got tasered the other day, so.

Liam Perkins (52:14)
Well, yeah, exactly. But like, you know, 99 % of people would walk past a professional rugby player, even an England player, and wouldn't even recognise them. They could walk down the high street and most people wouldn't even recognise them. And then it's sort of like, well, do you, would the professional want to be, do they want to cross into that realms of being front and centre in the media all the time, can't go anywhere without being paparazzi, all that sort of stuff? I don't know. I don't know.

Carl (52:34)
Yeah.

I think that's a hard balance, as you say, between making the game, because I think, I saw a stat the other day, rugby's obviously only professional for, is it the last 30 years or something like that, or 20 years? Yeah. It's been professional for that period of time, but we haven't moved with it. It's still very amateur in that sense. It's got the professional label, but I don't.

Liam Perkins (52:51)
It'll be about that, yeah.

Carl (53:07)
If you're running a business like this, you've got no hope from a business point of view. You'd have to maximise as much revenue as possible and it just doesn't seem to have taken that step. We've put a label that these players are professional and they're looked after and there's this and there's that. But as the actual business point of view, it doesn't seem to have moved forward because, as we've referenced back to...

there isn't the appetite in the wider public. If you're part of the bubble, you think it's the biggest thing in the world, but rugby really isn't. There's sports like cricket, there's stuff like that, F1 potentially. There's other sports out there that people are more obsessed about than rugby, but because you're inside that bubble, you think it's the biggest thing in the world, and it's a brilliant sport, and it brings so many people together, and so many people from different avenues of life, and you make friends for life.

But outside, people have got this tarnished, they're just drunk lunatics. Most of the time it's just... Yes.

Liam Perkins (54:10)
I think it's got to start with the kids. Get the kids involved in my nip of plays that Havant in the under sevens. A lot of people that he plays with have never been involved in rugby before in their life. Their parents just took them down to the local rugby club and they love it. They love the atmosphere. We went on our first tour this year to the Isle of Wight, which was brilliant. It was just a piss up. It was, what do they call when they all play together on the Isle of Wight? Vectis.

Carl (54:28)
Dija. Where about, which, what clubs?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it, yeah, yeah, yeah. wow. Was that played in Ryde or was that in Sandown? Sandown's normally got their decent pitch. Sandown and Shanklin, they've got...

Liam Perkins (54:37)
Leptis Vandals, yeah, so we've done that on a Sunday, which is really good. But things like that.

I think it was at Isle of Wight Rugby's club's pitch. I mean, I don't know the geography of the Isle of Wight do well, but things like that.  Well, exactly.  But things like that,  like the touring stuff and like being, everyone goes somewhere together, all the families are there, you take your other kids and it's just real great fun and brilliant to be around. My best memories of rugby are going on rugby tours and Gosport every year to France.

Carl (54:49)
okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah... Nah. As long as it won't vent, though, because that's pretty much France. Yes!

Liam Perkins (55:16)
make friends for life, all your parents are there, you know, they're best mates. Like you don't really have that with football and I just wish people could, more people could see that and you could get more people involved in that because I know people would love it. It's such a great atmosphere to be brought up around as a kid.

Carl (55:24)
Yeah.

looping back through to the Petersfield journey, you've got a couple more promotions to go, as you've said. Do you see yourself going up through the leagues as a coach? Like you've set your stand, you know you're a player.

Could you see yourself getting to a nat one coach? Because you know how to play that level and you said you're comfortable with that. Have you got aspirations to get up there or is that just one of them? You'll see how it goes or do you think actually I could probably make a mark in that level?

Liam Perkins (55:57)
Yeah.

I'd like to coach at the level I played at. Somewhere in the national leagues would be my ambition. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. I definitely would like to have a crack at coaching the level I played at. Definitely. That would be the ceiling. Very, very happy with being at Petersfield. Committed again for next year.

Carl (56:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (56:29)
because it's a really great place to sort of learn my spurs, brilliant club that's going places. But yeah, certainly in the future, hopefully it's a long, you know, a long path for me, you know, plenty of games to coach, plenty of seasons in me. I'd definitely like to coach the level I play at, yeah. Yeah.

Carl (56:48)
I'm going to try and finish on a little cliffhanger or a little hand grenade here. When you're going to hang up the boots then or is that still going to be the one last, is that the two seasons of promotion then when you get to where you need to be for Petersfield, is that the time or?

Liam Perkins (56:56)
Ha ha.

So I'm.

I promised my wife I'd play two years as a player coach and that would be done. So I've got one more year. But then I managed to break my thumb quite badly in the third last game of the season. I had pins and plates put in it. So she didn't say it, but she was looking at me and I thought her eyes were saying, you've got to grow up now, Liam. I don't know if I'll play next year or not, maybe. I'll do a pre -season and see where I am.

Carl (57:12)
Yeah, we've all promised wise a lot of things though.

Boom.

Oof.

Yeah.

Liam Perkins (57:37)
Certainly next year, if I do play, would be the last season. Yeah. I'll be 36 by the end of next year, so.

Carl (57:42)
Fair enough. So you obviously, you, goh, goh, getting on a bit, mate, now, wouldn't you? But I'm sure you can still plow your trade there pretty well if you can get them through the leagues. So obviously you got.

Liam Perkins (57:48)
Yeah, yeah.

It's been very enjoyable. It's been really enjoyable playing and coaching. I've still got the buzz and I've still got the love for it.

Carl (58:00)
So the next season, so what sort of team, you're obviously gonna have to get on the coach a lot, you're gonna have to get around a little bit more and stuff.

Liam Perkins (58:06)
Yeah, a bit more travelling. So we've got the likes of Chichester, Salisbury, Newbury, which should be good to go back to Newbury. So there's a little bit more travelling. It's not anything too mad. Yeah, a little bit Wimborne probably one of the further ones down that way. Yeah, it's not too bad. I think we'll do okay. I think we'll have a good year.

Carl (58:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

it's the season after, isn't it? That's when you start racking up the air miles, potentially. But, okay, mate, well, what an interview. Thank you so much for your time. Great to spread the word across the rugby community as well. So, I'm sure everyone that's listening as well really appreciate your time as well, Liam. So, cheers, mate. Thank you.

Liam Perkins (58:33)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll be. Yeah, yeah.

Pleasure. Pleasure.

No problem at all. All right, thank you. Cheers mate.

Carl (58:57)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you've made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and to express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues. So in today's episode, we discuss with Liam Perkins his career in the National Leagues of Rugby, his movement into coaching

and the massive support he has received at Petersfield to make that step a success. We found out how Joe Marchant ended up destroying teams in the second half of his spell at Worthing after a slow start.

We also discussed the Petersfield Chairman's aspirations to make Petersfield the best team in Hampshire and Liam's journey to make sure that that happens too. Liam also set out his ambitions...

be able to coach at the same level he played at. So that'll be exciting to see whether that happens, whether it's at Petersfield or somewhere else. Next week, we have Ed Burch on from the NAGS charity Barbarians, where we discuss how the charity was founded and some of the amazing fundraising that they have carried out so far. A little snippet. The charity was founded when the founding members decided they could pull a canal barge the length of a marathon.

with the obvious detour to a pub en route. Really looking forward to sharing that interview with you all next week. Once again, a huge thank you to you all for tuning in. Thank you and goodbye.