Episode 4 - The Si Pickett Interview - Purple Cobras, Epilepsy Awareness, and is Welsh Rugby Dead?

Si Pickett, creator of the Purple Cobra 7s team, discusses his rugby journey and the development of sevens rugby. He shares his experience playing with talented players who went on to make it in professional rugby, as well as those who didn't but should have. Si also talks about the growth of Havant RFC and the success of the Purple Cobras as a charity sevens team. The conversation covers various topics related to epilepsy and sevens rugby. Si discusses different types of seizures and the importance of spreading awareness and providing first aid for epilepsy. He also talks about the purple Cobras sevens team and their upcoming tournaments. The conversation then shifts to the role of sevens rugby in the overall rugby landscape. Simon shares his thoughts on whether sevens can be the saviour of rugby and the need for more characters and innovation in the sport. The discussion concludes with a conversation about the potential for private investment and franchise systems in sevens rugby. The conversation covers various topics related to the future of rugby, including the need for flexibility and adaptation, the potential benefits of scheduling games on weekdays, the importance of marketing and accessibility, the challenges faced by clubs in terms of geographical spread and financial stability, the impact of closed leagues and the lack of promotion and relegation, the potential for a cup competition involving lower-tier teams, the issues with the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) and its disconnect with regional teams and grassroots rugby, the potential decline of Welsh rugby, the inclusion of South African teams in the United Rugby Championship (URC), the lack of development opportunities in Wales, the need for a Wales A team, and the importance of player development and retention.

Transcript

Carl (00:12)
Hello and welcome to the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This podcast wants to shine a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl. I'm an avid rugby fan and regularly injured player. Thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to say a massive thank you to everyone that has been following our socials and supporting this journey so far. We'd love to get more feedback from you on the topics and also guests.

you'd like to see on the pod. This week we have another great guest on. We have Si Pickett from the Purple Cobras. A little caveat to this intro, the interview was recorded a week or so ago, so some of the events in the interview have now actually happened. They must have been listening in. Also, hope everyone watched plenty of rugby over the weekend. There was some great games out there. Army Navy was another huge spectacle on and off the pitch.

with an absolute barnstorming finish. Another game of two halves was in the Copa del Rey final in Spain, where Burgos overcome Valladolid by one point. Norway didn't manage to get a win on home soil to kickstart their campaign, unfortunately. Moldova beat Bulgaria to secure their playoff spot in the men's conference with an exceptional team trial in the process.

Moldova now get the opportunity to take on Luxembourg in the playoff match at the end of May. Malta backed up their recent victory against Cyprus with another victory in the return leg. Bermuda hosted the Cayman Islands, but unfortunately for them, they suffered defeat against the guest on home soil. Sri Lanka, massive celebrations out there by the looks of it again, also won their fourth Asia Men's Championship Div 1 title.

after managing to beat Kazakhstan at home. After that little run through of rugby across the globe, we have now our special guest interview to discuss about Purple Cobras, the seven scene, epilepsy awareness, and is Welsh rugby dead?

Carl (02:21)
Hello and after the little intro there we've got Si Pickett who's another club stalwart from my old club Gosport and Fareham and creator of the Purple Cobra 7s team. Obviously great to have you on Si and obviously be able to share the love about the 7s game where you sort of began at Gosport and sort of go down the 7s route and see.

see what it is and ask a few questions around whether it is the savior rugby that World Rugby are looking at the minute and what the purple Cobra is having store this season and for the seasons to come. So, well, thanks for coming on, mate. It's great to have you here and putting some time aside to talk to the wider rugby community as well, hopefully. So.

Simon Pickett (03:08)
Yeah, you're welcome, man.

Carl (03:09)
Um, we'll, uh, we'll get into the first question, mate. What got you into rugby and, uh, and the journey that embarked upon that afterwards?

Simon Pickett (03:19)
So I didn't really have any choice in the matter, if I'm honest. The old man, being Welsh, obviously played locally in Wales. He joined the Navy. So I spent most of my life down in Gosport. So at the ripe old age of eight, I was sent down the rugby club. Remember my first session was with the age group above, which probably wouldn't happen these days. But no, I got stuck in and I've loved it ever since.

Carl (03:21)
Yeah.

Not quite, no.

Simon Pickett (03:46)
been with Gosport now for 30 odd years, had a little flutter elsewhere, played for US Portsmouth for a season and then had a bad knee injury in 2012, which stopped me playing for quite a bit. I managed to eke out one more season with Locks Heath Pumas. They asked me to.

Carl (04:06)
Yeah, yeah. As just discussed with Polly on the other interview as well, apparently they've just managed to get their own pitch now, which is great to see as well, so, yeah.

Simon Pickett (04:15)
Yeah, amazing for them and the opportunity they gave me to be able to kind of retire on my terms was great and a real kind of, you know, it was what amateur rugby is all about and down in those levels it was all about the camaraderie and being able to do what I needed to do to finish my game. Yeah.

Carl (04:22)
Yeah, brilliant.

Yeah.

finally sign off, yeah. Brilliant, and then obviously you had a little stint as a head coach at Gosport for a little bit as well before the poly-era come in. It was a...

Simon Pickett (04:44)
Yeah, so I did the twos for quite a significant time after I'd done my knee actually. And I couldn't stand standing on the touchline and just watching. It was just, it wasn't me. So I got involved with the twos, kind of renamed the Vikings to give them a bit of identity. I mean, I loved it under Mark Wells coaching the ones at the time. Put a lot of faith in me. And I really enjoyed it.

Carl (04:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (05:07)
and the Vikings came on leaps and bounds, I think, in that period. I enjoyed it. And then the following season, the first team coach, he had some issues, like personal issues, and I was asked to step up for a little while in the early part of the season, which I again, I really enjoyed. And then obviously, I had children come along, essentially, which kind of took up my spare time.

Carl (05:10)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (05:30)
So kind of taking a step back from the coaching a little bit, although I'm involved with Evan now and Eslin, my son and daughter's teams a little bit. So I still get out there, still get the boots on and get involved.

Carl (05:41)
Yeah.

Are they down at Gosport as well? Are they part of the Gosport youth system?

Simon Pickett (05:47)
Yeah, so they're both in Gosport. Yeah, one with the under nines, one with the under sevens. So one's just started the first season of contact. Evan was a bit shy at first with it, but has really stepped up now. And Eslin is with the under sevens playing Tag Rugby. Again, not the most naturally gifted player, but she worked so hard. And because of her working hard, she's now

Carl (06:02)
Yeah.

That's it.

Simon Pickett (06:14)
quite a vital member of the team. So yeah, it's good.

Carl (06:16)
Brilliant. Cause that's the difference out in Spain. So obviously over here now, they actually start full contact from under six. So they have to wear a head guard and a mouth guard and they start full contact. So do you think that, as you said, Evan get into the under nines and then just start in full contact, sort of a contact level, do you think that holds the English game back or?

Simon Pickett (06:25)
Already.

Carl (06:40)
Do you think that's why a lot, because as you know, you get to the twos and threes, there's a lot of grown men that's still reluctant to tackle. Is that because it's not, it doesn't become second nature to them from an early stage? Do you think that's a part of a development piece that we're missing out on in the English game or?

Simon Pickett (06:40)
Um...

So I can see the pros and the cons of both ways. Like I said, I didn't start till I was eight. I missed out the tag rugby piece. It was kind of thrown in at the deep end. And I loved it, like that suited me. But I'd potentially say that my game suffered as I got older. So the whole, obviously your first couple of years playing tag rugby.

Carl (06:59)
Mm.

Yeah. Straight in, yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Simon Pickett (07:18)
It's all about evasion and not getting caught and obviously the contact side of it's taken away. And potentially, I know it's only two years, but I feel like my game maybe suffered a little bit and I kind of got stovepiped down there. I'm a big brute. I want to put the big hits in, like tackling. Whereas I think Evans benefited. I certainly think Evans benefited from the tag rugby.

Carl (07:21)
Yeah.

Yep.

Up the jumper. That's it.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (07:45)
He's a bit slimmer than I am, don't get me wrong, but he's a big lad and his footwork already is pretty decent from having to play that way. And it only took him a little while to kind of settle into the contact bit, so it wasn't horrendous.

Carl (07:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, because I think in New Zealand, it's a sort of a similar setup. I don't think they start tackling until maybe under 12 because they're taught to, as you say, try to evade tackles and find space and offload as quick as possible. And I think New Zealand aren't too bad of a team, so they must, they might have something that works pretty well. So I think it's finding that hybrid level of making sure that contact is, is met.

But also, because I think there's still an element of people are scared to make tackles in even in men's rugby,

Onto the next question then, mate. Obviously, 30 years of rugby, you've probably come across a few people. Who did you play with that went on to make it, and was it obvious when you played with them?

Simon Pickett (08:45)
So I think probably my most obvious example of that would probably be Josh Drananui. So a Fijian lad who was in the Navy. I played Navy under 21s and under 23s with him. He played on the wing, was strong, slight, the typical kind of Fijian offloads. Really, you could tell he was a level above everybody else.

Carl (08:52)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yep.

Simon Pickett (09:10)
That used to be a good level to be fair, but he was strides ahead of everyone else. He went on to play for London Welsh, Harlequins, played England's sevens, played in the French leagues as well. He played at the top level and had shuffled down over the last few years. Just recently retired actually. He was miles ahead of everybody else and had plied his trade all over the place to be fair.

Carl (09:11)
Yeah.

I don't know.

I already-

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (09:35)
allowed him to, so the majority of that was whilst he was still in the Navy, which is great, quite similar to Sam Matavesi now, the Fijian international, obviously he's playing for Northampton and playing for the Navy still, so the Navy allows him to do what he needs to do.

Carl (09:39)
No problem.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, brilliant. That seems to be a fairly common theme with the armed forces, because... was it Rokugungi? Or... yeah. And obviously, he did okay, didn't he? So... Do you think there's many more that are coming through the system? Do you sort of keep your eye on what's available in the Navy squads, etc.? Is there any...

Simon Pickett (10:01)
Rock of Daguni for the army.

Yeah, no buts.

Yeah, so...

Carl (10:18)
anyone's that are going to come through that they're going to sort of blitz through past everyone.

Simon Pickett (10:23)
Yeah, there's a few good young lads and quite a few of them are currently playing at the National League level. So Ed Pasco plays for Red Roof. There's a few others dotted around as well. Plymouth Albion normally pick up quite a few players because of their links to the Navy in that area. So yeah, there's a few around. Just a good side now in the Navy. Gone are the days where they used to get walked over by the army. That's become...

Carl (10:29)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (10:48)
a lot more of a professional outfit than it ever used to be. And the lads are playing at a decent enough level to be able to play week in, week out so that army navy fixture isn't a shock. And I mean, you're getting 60,000 people watching it. It's obviously going to be a decent level. Otherwise, people wouldn't...

Carl (10:51)
Yeah.

Mmm. Yeah.

100%. There's, yeah, there's some exceptional players that turn up. And as you say, being able to create that as effectively a full-time activity and the lads playing out to play week in, week out, probably has come on leaps and bounds. Even the under 23, he's got under 23s and under 21 system. So you've got a proper system coming through now. And when I was back in England, used to pop along and watch some of them and some decent.

Simon Pickett (11:23)
Under 23, so yeah.

Carl (11:32)
decent level. The Tri-Services Cup was always a decent one to go and watch down at Barnaby Road and stuff like that as well. So there's a good system within the Navy to, as you say, actively challenge the Army in the Army-Navy games now. Was there anyone that you played against as well that went on to make it? Because I think

Simon Pickett (11:52)
Yeah, so I never got to play against Kyle Sinclair. Obviously he went on and done pretty well. I think probably I'm trying to think who my obvious choice would be from that. Obviously Trevor Leota, but I was in a rugby league environment when Gosport had a rugby league side. So Trevor used to play for London scholars, I believe, just to keep his fitness up during the summer. He didn't like his fitness, so they got him playing rugby league.

Carl (11:57)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Simon Pickett (12:21)
just to get him out and about and burning some calories essentially I think. So we played against him for Gosport Vikings so that was good.

Carl (12:26)
Yeah. Oh, brilliant.

Oh, cool. Next one then, who did you play with that didn't make it but should have and why?

Simon Pickett (12:33)
Oh, most people will know them, the two Dugan brothers, both of them for Gospott and Farham. Wayne was in the Navy for a little bit and obviously been on the Navy scene. I think it's a real shame really, because I think there's a lot of, I think that's where England get it wrong. There's a lot of talent in the lower leagues that not necessarily been picked up between the age of...

Carl (12:41)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (12:57)
kind of 16 and 18 into an academy. And you know, and they haven't really finished growing until kind of 20. I've seen an article from Sam Warburton the other day who was saying that, um, there's a lot of academies he's seen it where they're picking the guys up at 16 to 18, the big monsters, and there's guys who have probably got a better skillset, but because they've not quite developed yet, they're getting let go or they're not even getting picked up in the first place. Um, so I think

Carl (13:00)
Mm-hmm.

developed.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (13:24)
Yeah, probably them two definitely. Obviously they've moved on to Havent now, who will be playing National League next year. And that's both where they should have been playing for a long, long time. Obviously both stalwarts of Gosport and had their loyalties there. So potentially a little bit of that, that they liked playing at Gosport and liked the amateur game. But yeah, both of them certainly were, again, were strides above everybody else. And probably should have gone on to...

Carl (13:29)
Done. Yeah, brilliant work.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (13:51)
professional I think anyway.

Carl (13:53)
Yeah, both quality players obviously now gonna be sort of applying their trade in National League next year after going up the hill and over to Havant. So fair play to what they've done. Yeah, great to see Havant actually making an effort of getting through the leagues. How far do you reckon they can go? Because they've clearly got the confidence on the role and they've got a good development of players over there as well, haven't they?

Simon Pickett (14:16)
You know, yeah, they've got an excellent mini youth section over there for starters, to the point where they've got a waiting list for teams, which is just like unheard of, certainly, back in my time. And, and they've obviously got the ground, the one stand, that would probably be the one place where they could develop a little bit further. It's kind of this, the stands and the capacity to be able to, to get supporters in the ground.

Carl (14:22)
Yeah.

Yes, cool.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (14:44)
They've got the 4G pitch which really suits them as well, the kind of rugby they play. And great for the community, obviously the community get to use it. A lot of the other local rugby clubs get to use it on an ad hoc basis. So it's good in that regard. I think certainly they could do well next year. I don't see them falling straight back down. I think they'll do well. And it's good to see three or four GOSPORT guys over there that have developed through

Carl (14:47)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (15:11)
Our mini-youth stepped up obviously Wayne and Wes went quite late, the two Dugan brothers but see Rory Penfold over there doing well. I believe so yeah and obviously getting quite a bit of game time with the ones as well and then obviously Sean Shepherd who's had an incredible season. I could see him going on levels again. I think he'll probably stay with Haven and try and move Haven along.

Carl (15:19)
Yeah. Captain of the twos over there, honey.

Yeah. Ah.

I think he was another one that had an injury probably at the wrong time, then he did his knee. But I've played with Sean and you can tell he's a different gravy. And if he didn't pick that knock up, do you think he could have gone on a match what the Dugans sort of should have been?

Simon Pickett (15:39)
Yeah.

Oh yeah, without a doubt. Obviously, Joe Batley, a Gosport graduate.

Carl (15:56)
Yeah.

Simon Pickett (15:57)
so, so Joe Batley's obviously gone on to play Premiership Rugby, Gosport and Fareham graduate. From what I saw of him as a, as a youngster, Sean was certainly in the, in the same ability in terms of talent wise. Obviously, Joe's a little bit bigger and, and is a bit of a monster, to be honest, playing second row and in the back row, but Sean certainly has got...

Carl (16:13)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (16:20)
ample amount of talent. I think he scored 20 tries for having this season from Hooker, which and not all of them are the stereotypical kind of hanging on to the back of the mall. He's scoring them from all sorts of places.

Carl (16:25)
Yeah.

He can find some space out of nowhere, Sean, as well. And trying to tackle him is just a lot of admin. He's built well to bounce a tackle, and he ain't afraid of making one either when he's on his game as well. He's phenomenal.

Simon Pickett (16:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I think Havant will do well. On one hand, it's kind of... Gosport used to play Havant like regular at the same level, level five.

Carl (16:51)
Mm.

Simon Pickett (16:59)
But we've got to understand at Gosport that where we are in terms of geographically makes it difficult to recruit and it's all from internal. But to see a club down this area making strides up the league, I know it's haven't. But it pains me a little bit, but it is great to see this area moving forward in terms of rugby.

Carl (17:04)
Yeah.

Brilliant. Yeah. I know. Yeah, we all know that. It all stings a bit. It all stings us a little bit.

No, brilliant. So obviously getting onto the purple Cobras, mate. Obviously you started up the Cobras as a, it was a sevens. Was it Worthing Sevens? Was it just after the Worthing Sevens that we went to back in the day that Gosport put a team out?

Simon Pickett (17:25)
Thanks for watching!

I think so, Wervin Sevens, I think was the, yeah, Wervin Sevens was the first, first outing for Purple Cobras back in 2019. So started the team, quite a Gosport nucleus and a base of players, but my daughter has epilepsy. So, so I thought, well, what better way than to start a charity sevens team to kind of spread the word and raise some money.

Carl (17:40)
Yep.

Okay.

Perfect.

Simon Pickett (17:58)
Fortunately, she's under control of medication now and is beginning to be weaned off it, but I still feel really strongly and passionate about the message that we're trying to move on. There's not a lot known about epilepsy, a lot of it's genetics-based, where there's not a lot known about genetics. People don't fully understand epilepsy either, so everyone kind of has the impression it's the flashing lights and people are...

Carl (18:11)
Yep.

Okay.

Simon Pickett (18:26)
having seizures on the floor and then they're not all like that. So my daughter has absent seizures or did have absent seizures where she was staring into oblivion and you just couldn't get her attention. So she looks like she's just not concentrating, but she's actually having an episode and then myoclonic seizures, which are kind of twitches. So there's varying loads of different types of epilepsy.

Carl (18:27)
fall to the floor. Yeah, yeah.

Ready.

Okay.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (18:50)
And people aren't really aware. And then even kind of the first aid piece. So people aren't really aware what to do sometimes with the first aid. They just, again, they think they see the generic kind of having a seizure on the floor fits. People can deal with that, but they don't know how to deal with the other type of seizure. So we try and spread the message. And again, Sevens has a festival feel to it. So like music festival feel to it. And people just get randomly chatting over a beer. So we just thought what?

Carl (18:52)
Bye.

Yep.

Simon Pickett (19:18)
what a better way than to spread the message about epilepsy through the means of Seven's rugby.

Carl (19:24)
And obviously the purple Cobras aren't a bad sevens team, they've won a few tournaments around and what's the plan for this season? Where can we see the Cobras out and about?

Simon Pickett (19:33)
Yes

So, yeah, we've done all right. We are a social side. So we try to not stay away from the elite circuit, but it's not what we're about. We sometimes get lumped in with the elite because of dropout. So I had a house of hope, not last year, but the year before. We were lumped in with Wild Dogs, who are a top team on the elite circuit, held our own. So, yeah, we do all right.

Carl (19:45)
Nip.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yep.

Simon Pickett (20:03)
but we're very much about the social. We've won a few tournaments in our second season 2020. Covid put pain to us a little bit obviously which was a little bit of a shame but we've slowly grown. This summer we're out in Winchester in May in a couple of weeks time. We've got Havant Sevens in the middle of June. We're looking to go to the

Carl (20:21)
Okay.

No problem.

Yep.

Simon Pickett (20:28)
in July. I think that's pretty much confirmed. So that's turning into quite a big tournament, kind of on the levels of trying to knock on the levels.

Carl (20:35)
Oh, brilliant. Where's that held? Is that over Ventnor or is it ride? Oh, okay. Well, sort of a camp out as well because obviously you've got, it's a bit of a lick to get over there, isn't it?

Simon Pickett (20:39)
Bent narrow, I believe. Yeah. So again, they have a... Yeah, so we're getting the caravan site. So we've got a caravan for a couple of days, kind of treating it like a mini tour. So proper kind of amateur rugby stuff, few beers, kangaroo court. So yeah, it should be good.

Carl (20:49)
Yep.

Yeah, problem.

Yeah. What, in a caravan? I can't even imagine the state of that in that caravan after that.

Simon Pickett (21:00)
Wow. I don't think they'd be too happy with us for that, so we might do that elsewhere. But yeah, so we've got that. House of Hope we're going to again. We should add a couple of more dates in between. And then we've got, so Saracens Amateurs. So up in London, again, a great tournament. So they're a charity-based tournament. We went a couple of seasons ago, really enjoyed it.

Carl (21:15)
So, where's House of Hope, sorry? I'm a little bit out of... Ah, brilliant. Okay. Yep.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (21:27)
invited us back again this year. So yeah, we've taken the plunge and we're gonna go again.

Carl (21:29)
Ah, brilliant.

Oh, Christy. So obviously you did tap on the COVID and the pandemic piece. How many, how many sort of season, seven seasons were sort of affected by that? And do you think it's taken a little bit longer to rebuild the team or is everyone sort of as soon as it was ready to go, everyone was back out and?

Simon Pickett (21:49)
Yeah, so I think we've probably lost two summers, I would say, to COVID. Yeah, it has taken a little bit longer to build up. And obviously, our nucleus of players has slightly changed as well. So your older guys that we had in 2019 are either retired or not really enjoying their sevens anymore, shall we say. So we've had to build up the...

Carl (21:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

on the verge. Yeah.

Simon Pickett (22:13)
the younger Nucleus are players and the player base, albeit it's Gosport based, we are getting players from all sorts. So we've got a lad who was a former epilepsy sufferer as well, who plays rugby, coming from Tring to play in Winchester. So, and that's kind of what we want to do. We don't want to be, we want anybody to come and play for us. So yeah, we've...

Carl (22:25)
Okay, brilliant. Yeah. Oh, brilliant.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (22:37)
just started, so we managed to get a men's and women's team out at Worthing, not last year but the year before, in fact no, the last two years.

Carl (22:42)
Quality

Worthing sevens again on the on the circuit this year again trying to get

Simon Pickett (22:48)
Yeah, I think so. I think we'll tag that on to the end of our summer seven season, but we haven't confirmed it yet. So that was quite good for us. A social seven side that's managing to get a men's and a women's side out is quite unusual in the seven circuit as well and something I'm really proud of that we managed to do.

Carl (22:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's cool.

might have scope to be able to roll a Vets, Sevens Vets team, do you reckon that's a, is that an option?

Simon Pickett (23:09)
Wow, so there's a Fatboy 7s it's called at Reading I think this season, or it might even be 10s I think, just to give the legs a little bit of an extra help in. So we're looking, we probably might go to that, it's just quite a tight schedule that's all. But yeah, we're going for anything. I mean, last season we played a 15-a-side match against Ripples of Compassion.

Carl (23:16)
Oh really? Oh brilliant.

Yeah.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Simon Pickett (23:35)
another charity that's quite close to a lot of Gosport Heart. So we got out for the first time ever as a 15 side, and we're looking to do that again at the end of July. So yeah, we're making small strides and getting there. Eventually, we want to try and get our own tournament down in Gosport. So either at Gosport Park or...

Carl (23:38)
Yep.

for them.

Yep.

Simon Pickett (23:55)
one of the local military establishments. So, Collingwood might be an option with their playing fields, I think. So, that's where we want to try to get to. Obviously, small steps. I think we'll get there.

Carl (23:57)
Okay.

No, it's obviously with the blip of the pandemic in between, you could have probably been at that point by now potentially because it's a massive part of the Gosport sort of ethos. And even the surrounding areas you said, people coming down from Tring just shows exactly what you guys are trying to push forward and spread the word. So obviously, I know you mentioned earlier about trying to spread the word of different parts of epilepsy. And we sort of touched on

people only know about the seizure on the floor and that sort of stuff. What would be the way to treat the other epilepsy, is it a episodes or attacks? I don't know what the terminology around, perfect.

Simon Pickett (24:46)
Yeah, I would label them as episodes. But a lot of people, a lot of the time, it's just comforting people and allowing them to get through that period as they need to. And then obviously, if it goes on for, I think they normally say longer than two minutes, it's where you need to start worrying and an ambulance. But people like to try and shake people out of...

Carl (24:54)
Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Simon Pickett (25:11)
seizures, which I know sounds ridiculous, but yeah, like exactly. And it's kind of, especially with the absent seizures, people kind of like, oh, what's like, what's going on? And it's just, just kind of let it pass and, and then through. But we, when we go out on our tournaments, we normally have the gazebo up, we set up the tables with the information of first aid information. And we set up, we also take kind of contacts because there's a lot of

Carl (25:13)
It's like trying to wake a baby, isn't it? You never wake.

Bye.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (25:40)
So recently one of our players, his nipper, was diagnosed with infantile spasms, which obviously when they're a baby, and that's a type of seizure, when they're a baby they can't tell you what's going on. And as a parent you're really worried, you don't know what's going on, you don't know who to contact, so we kind of take the leaflets for the help, so we pick things like young epilepsy and

Carl (25:47)
Okay.

No.

Yep.

Simon Pickett (26:05)
Epilepsy Society and the Epilepsy UK research leaflet. So this kind of point of contact. So we like to signpost people as well. Cause it's so common. People don't realize how common it is. I think it's one in 50 people have some form of epilepsy, which, you know, is, yeah, it's a lot.

Carl (26:13)
Yep.

Really?

That's quite a significant amount. One of the lads in the S16s at Xabia here over here, he suffers from it and apparently he's having a scan because he's got the on either side that triggers or something. So sometimes one will pick it up and he's under control with certain tablets, et cetera. But we just got to be aware that, as you said, he has certain triggers and we've...

We've got to adapt certain things around that as well. So it's just exposing people to all elements. As you say, most people expect flashing lights. That's it. People are gonna drop to the deck, have a seizure and then that's that. But there's a lot more awareness that needs to be spread around. so that's key. I never knew about the two minute sort of panic button, not panic button, but you got to make people, you start.

that's the trigger to get an ambulance and stuff like that. So that's.

Simon Pickett (27:15)
Yeah.

There's also people kind of, because of the contact in rugby as well, people kind of disassociate like the, oh, if you've got epilepsy, you can't play rugby. And Freeman, the England winger. So he has epilepsy, but under control with medication. And a lot of people don't know that. Don't get me wrong, there will be incidences where, I mean, I've seen kids that have like 50 epileptic seizures a day.

Carl (27:20)
Hmm.

Yep.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, really? Oh, wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (27:42)
they're obviously not going to play rugby. But there's certainly avenues still to, I say my daughter plays tag rugby. So even if you can't do the contact, there's still avenues to play tag rugby, touch rugby when you're older, walk in rugby as you get even older. So there's still avenues to be involved in the game, but without having to do the contact. And then even then, if you do suffer, if you're under control with medication, there's still the opportunity to potentially play.

Carl (27:43)
No.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, it's brilliant. So obviously, I did brush on it earlier. World Rugby is sort of trying to brand the Sevens scene as potentially the savior of rugby by trying to push that. I did discuss this with Polly the other day as well. Do you think Sevens is the savior of rugby or is that the T20 of rugby equivalents to cricket? Or do you think there's something needed in between?

or are they two completely separate scenes of this beautiful game?

Simon Pickett (28:41)
Currently, I just think they're two completely different parts of the game. Could they be closer? Yeah, quite possibly. Is it the savior of rugby? I'm not convinced. I mean, I know there's a lot of... It's worked so well in cricket, the shorter formats, the colours, the... You know, the... Yeah, the music. Yeah, so I think there's a lot we can learn.

Carl (28:44)
Mm-hmm.

fireworks, the Friday night games double, yeah that's it.

Simon Pickett (29:04)
And again, I think England's, certainly the UK and Europe actually in general is a bit of, we're kind of halfway house, I think, with rugby. We've gone to the professional game where we want players to be paid. But then we try and hang on for grim death for the traditions. And yes, I'm obviously old and bold. I like the traditions of rugby. We all have the stories from like, that don't happen these days.

Carl (29:30)
Yeah.

Simon Pickett (29:31)
I think we need to move with the times. We've not got many characters in the game. And if you look at things like the NFL, where they fully exploit it, and don't get me wrong, obviously, you've got the masses that watch NFL. But we've got to attract more to the game, and currently I don't think there's enough going on to do that. Joe Marler a great example, so because he's a bit of a character, people will know who Joe Marler is, even if they're not rugby fans. We just need more and more of them.

Carl (29:41)
Yeah.

Yep.

Simon Pickett (30:01)
albeit it's because he's a pretty boy and he's gone to American football. Everyone knows who he is. And I just think we need some more people like that, people that are willing to say what they think and a bit more character involved rather than the generic media answers that are given out. And again, same with the, I think England made strides with the Rag and Bow man at one of the games.

Carl (30:05)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Simon Pickett (30:24)
and doing that, I think that makes a big difference. It gets the kids involved. It makes it more of an event. You know, the NFL do it with the halftime shows. And I think, yeah, we just need to keep going in that direction, I think.

Carl (30:30)
Yep.

Do you think that's because it's not available much on the telly? As I sort of mentioned the other day with Polly's interview as well, that you pretty much you've got your mainstream and then after that, unless you're part of the championship rugby or anything, it's not really readily available. The Rugby Europe Championship, you've got obviously Spain, Georgia, that's all available online to watch. But because it's not on the telly, it's a lot of admin for people to go and...

Chuck it on, as you said, we don't shine a light on the wider game. And once you're in the England, the premiership, you've got that underneath that. We don't have anything to underpin a development path for, for people that are shot for the stars, but not quite made it. Um, in France, you've got four pro leagues that are top quality leagues as well. And I was speaking to somebody the other day about Ireland. So basically if you don't make it into the provincial sort of set up.

by about 18. You pretty much miss out and you fall into the All-Ireland League as well, which you still make a living off. But there's some top quality players in there, but they're automatically discounted. And that's as far as they're allowed to go because they've not made it through to the likes of Leinster's development squads, Ulster, etc. Whereas in New Zealand, I know we've popped back to it there, but the door has never closed for an

any of the sides and still get a potential call up. So do you think that's something that we've closed the door on in certain areas of rugby and some have to make that decision between sevens and fifteens as well? You can't really flip between the two and I don't know how that's a negative for some players because I think some players have probably come on better from playing sevens because you've got more expansive but when you

Simon Pickett (32:18)
Yeah.

Carl (32:24)
got to find that space, whereas 15s is very much regimented, this is the drill, this is what we're doing, whereas 7s gives that freedom to certain players as well.

Simon Pickett (32:34)
Yeah, I mean, you've got a few examples, people who have played sevens that have gone on, mainly the Kiwis, to be fair, in kind of your Saveas Obviously, De Pont's doing things at the moment, which, but for one, the best player in the world currently, it's taken the best player in the world to be able to flip between the two quite easily, I would say.

Carl (32:41)
Mm. Yep.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (32:57)
I think it's Sonny Bill Williams even said like it's literally a completely different sport in terms of the fitness that is required. So it makes it very difficult, I think, to kind of flip between the two. It's, you know, like cricket, you can play, you can be a decent test player. And as long as you've got a bit of a, you can knock it a bit. You can go and play T20, et cetera. You know, I think it's complete. Yeah.

Carl (33:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, or go to the IPL as well and you get paid some big, big dollar and is that the way that Rugby could be used? Is there gonna be like a franchise piece? Could you franchise people for sevens halfway through this and they get paid their big money and be able to put that on as a, yeah.

Simon Pickett (33:35)
Yeah, I mean, I'd be all for it and I think it would take like a private investor, you're Saudi, so I'd love to see that where you just go, do you know what, we'll have a sevens tournament, we'll have these franchises, we'll get the best players in the world. And I know it is a different game and it's a different fitness, but actually, do you know what I mean? If you're getting paid megabucks to go and play sevens,

Carl (33:43)
Yeah.

have a draft system and people sort of...

Simon Pickett (34:01)
whether you're a 15s player, you're going to take it. You know, and then do we keep players in the game? You know, kind of your resummits and that who have disappeared off to the NFL. If those kind of opportunities are available.

Carl (34:02)
Yeah.

Yeah. I think he's, exactly that. He's got the opportunity. I think I heard it on the rugby pod the other day. He was talking about how much he's going to get from his three-year contract and I think as long as he makes the roster, I think it's nearly three-quarters of a million pounds a year or dollars a year.

Simon Pickett (34:30)
Yeah, I think it's 900 grand for the three years, even if he's in the training squad, which I think at Gloucester he was like, I think it was 200 or something. No, it's not horrendous, but.

Carl (34:35)
Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, which ain't a bad, bad salary for, but it's not, there's, there's a reason why retention and there's that the money's not in rugby. Uh, and maybe, as you said, if the Saudis want to come in, open a checkbook, get a draft system, play

the system as well to say, right, actually, we're going to put a real flag in the ground. They've managed to do it with boxing. Obviously, they've done some mega shows out there and some of the undercards were so poor leading up to it because they didn't have the money to put multiple. And that's why a lot of people have probably gone to the likes of UFC because they're, I think, UFC 300, I think they literally had 10 world title fights on one card.

whereas boxing and stuff is pretty much one or two a push. But the Saudis are obviously trying to push that forward, which is great to see. Obviously there's a lot of.

political underlying with that, with the sports washing. And, but that's, that's for somebody else who probably discussed to be honest, cause we want to see this beautiful game grow. And if somebody's able to shine that light on it and put some money in the, in the players pockets, because they, a lot of them aren't going to last that long. There's players still retiring at 26, 27. And as you said, if he, like Lewis Rees-Amott, who's only on 200 grand, if he can go and get three years, at least in the NFL.

Simon Pickett (35:43)
Yeah.

Carl (36:08)
and he could still dot straight back into rugby. He's of that ability though, three, four years in the NFL, comes back, he's made his money, he can go and still easily make a mark on the rugby scene quite easily. So it's, I think that, as you said there, the Saudis are potentially the one, but do you see it? Is it gonna come?

Simon Pickett (36:11)
Yeah, very much so.

I don't know. Stranger things have happened. I think they're trying to get involved in the snooker at the moment. So, you know, if they're getting involved in snooker, you know, what's stopping them getting involved in a high adrenaline sport like contact sport? You know, I wouldn't rule anything out at all with them at the moment.

Carl (36:37)
Okay.

No, no.

Simon Pickett (36:48)
the opportunities where players get dropped off from academies and then they're not found again. I find it, I really struggle with it because very rarely do you see somebody who's playing, I think, who was one of the England scrum halves who played for Bedford Blues, I think was his kind of development and then got picked up. That's so rare, it's so rare. Whereas if you look at kind of football...

Carl (37:04)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (37:13)
And again, it's probably to do with the exposure, kind of the TV exposure and the YouTube highlights now kind of thing. You could have a lower league championship player that you go, hang on a minute, or a League One player. They're banging some goals in at the moment. Let's give them a go.

Carl (37:27)
Paul Mullen done it. He dropped down to the conference and obviously where he's got with Wrexham there's people having conversations whether to sign him as a championship striker again. He took a dip to put him where he is and obviously they've brought mega sort of highlights to the game in that sense, the lower league, because they've obviously got the Disney Channel, they've got all of the Disney Plus video and stuff which allows them to shine that light on. Do we need...

Simon Pickett (37:36)
Yeah.

Carl (37:53)
a Hollywood investor that comes and buys something like Wasps that's fell through, but where are they going to get the return? And that's the question because I think next season they plan on TNT are going to play every single Premiership game on the telly. I think they've got every single game is the plan. But does that mean it's at the detriment of do you get to watch one game or are they going to have to move the whole structure? Is there going to be more games on?

Simon Pickett (38:09)
Oh really?

Carl (38:22)
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday nights, is there, are the fans gonna suffer? Because a lot of people really struggle with the tradition of, that's it, football's on at three o'clock on a Saturday, rugby's on at three o'clock on a Saturday. If their club is then playing on a Tuesday night, is there gonna be a back lesson? Do people go to the game and still put money in the club's pocket? Or are they gonna sit and...

sit at home and is there going to be a decline in the attendances to these games?

Simon Pickett (38:51)
Yeah, it's getting the balance right, isn't it, between getting people through the gates and seeing it live. And there is nothing better than watching live sport unfold in front of your eyes. Obviously, being Welsh, going to the Principality Stadium, there's nothing better in the rugby world for me than attending there. But if the one, the TV rights are going to bring money in and add to the exposure,

Carl (38:55)
Yep.

Better than that.

Yep.

Yeah, what an atmosphere. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Simon Pickett (39:18)
It's just getting that, we just got to be, I think, a bit more flexible in terms of what we're open to. Yeah, we want to stay true to our traditions. You know, that's what makes rugby different to football and, you know, the respect for the referees and the shaking hands afterwards, after you've been into battle with each other and having a beer in the changing rooms afterwards together, that we want to keep all of that. But we do need to move with the times. If we're going to...

Carl (39:25)
Yeah.

Simon Pickett (39:45)
the game's going to remain professional, which clearly it's going to, then we've got to move with the times. And if TV rights and moving games to a Tuesday, Wednesday night are part of that, then I don't see any problem with it. Yeah, me as well.

Carl (39:55)
That'd be great to see. Personally, I'd love to see games on a Monday, Tuesday, rather than chucking the football on or something like that, you can just chuck a game on a Monday, Tuesday. I think that would also increase exposure. It would disenfranchise some people from the traditions, but I think it would potentially, because TNT Sport, they're obviously trying to really push the game, and I think there's obviously, with the Champions Cup.

being on ITV and Channel 4, I spoke to Polly the other day, and he said he actually watched a couple of games because it was on terrestrial and it was able for people to see. So I don't think we do that enough.

Simon Pickett (40:30)
Yeah.

And again, if the clubs market it correctly, like midweek, you get your kids in there for a quid along with an adult ticket, then I don't see any problems with it. The football manager do it pretty well. Don't get me wrong, obviously there's a lot more money in the TV rights, but you look at the Papa John's trophy at the football Portsmouth, our local club. It's a quid for a kid and an eight quid for adults to go in and you've got a night out with your kids for.

Carl (40:38)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (40:59)
for 10 quid. If you market it correctly, I don't see the problem.

Carl (41:00)
Yeah.

I think that's the hardest thing though for the likes of Gosport, as Polly also mentioned the other day. The local Premiership rugby club is Harlequins, that's probably the closest, which is not an easy trip on a Saturday as it is because it's Twickenham, it's the train or you drive up and it's... Try and do that on a mid-week game would be quite difficult for a lot of people from our area, so the likes of Havant if they can carry on that and...

Simon Pickett (41:12)
Yeah.

Carl (41:29)
be able to sort of increase that exposure down south, that'd be brilliant to see a club pushing that echelon and open the door.

Simon Pickett (41:38)
Yeah, I mean, that's where, again, because the English game is slightly different in terms of the teams are established. It's kind of the traditional teams geographically. It's pretty poor. You've got your nucleus here, your London side, you've got your nucleus of your West Country sides, your Midlands sides, and then you've got like Newcastle and kind of Sale, who I believe are both struggling as well financially.

Carl (41:47)
Yeah.

Yep.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (42:03)
Anyway, so the spread of the top clubs isn't particularly great geographically, which then makes it again, makes it difficult to access. Do the English RFU get involved and make it kind of a demographics kind of regional sides like Wales, Ireland and Scotland have done, I don't know. Again, because everyone's got their old traditions and like, oh, we need to have

Carl (42:09)
None.

Hmm.

Yeah.

They've pretty much closed the Premiership as well though. There's no relegation because they're not allowing any run up from the Championship. So they've now also done the same to the Championship. So the Championship is now closed. There's no promotional relegation for the next season or two, I believe in the Championship as well, which either allows development or it stunts. There's positives to allow clubs to reset, but also...

Simon Pickett (42:30)
people aren't gonna budge.

Yeah. So again, you've got a double-edged sword there again where, because you've got a league structure that should have relegation and promotion to it, to then make rules that stop that from happening. You know, your Ealings for example, their ground doesn't meet the criteria to be in the Premiership,

Carl (43:06)
Yeah.

Simon Pickett (43:11)
the Newcastle's. So why do you need a big massive ground that you're only going to have like half fill?

Carl (43:17)
So Doncaster have got a proper outfit as well. They've got a proper ground and stuff like that. It's why, if England women's are able to hold their games at Doncaster's ground, why can't Doncaster, I know their team's probably potentially not there, but why have you got to close the door? Why? Because it worked during COVID, because obviously it was trying to reset the league, but now it's like...

It's an old boys club now, isn't it? If your face fits, you're stuck, and if you're not, and does that mean they're gonna go bust? Yep.

Simon Pickett (43:46)
Yeah. Again, it's a bit archaic and it's half and half again. If you want to go down the kind of closed off, this is the 10, 12 teams that we've got in the Premiership and there is no relegation or promotion. I don't see a problem with that, but the demographics of those teams needs to be better spread.

around the country. It can't just be the 10, the 12 that were already there in the first place. And don't get me wrong, it's not as easy as just going, like shut all these teams down and you're going to play here because of the owners, etc. I fully understand that. But it's kind of, yeah, I say it's halfway house.

Carl (44:17)
You're not it, yeah, move these around. Yeah.

Yeah, because obviously you've got the LV Cup as well. I don't know what it's been rebranded as now, if it has at all. A lot of that is more of a reserve teams basis. Do you think rugby would benefit from similar to like an FA Cup system where the championship could have an opportunity to play against?

the Premiership team with a cup draw, and I know it's adding games, but do you sacrifice the like of an LV cup for Cornish Pirates to go and play Saracens, or Ealing going to be able to go up to Newcastle, Newcastle coming down to Ealing for a cup tie? Do you think that would have more of a attraction within the rugby community?

Simon Pickett (45:13)
Compared to an LV Cup, yeah, without a doubt, like you say, it's kind of reserved. I get it, it's kind of a, yeah, reserved. I get it as an element of its development as well. But in terms of attracting funding and people to the game again, I mean, imagine being down at, like you say, kind of a Cornish Pirates and Saracens are coming to town, kind of the gate that produces. I mean...

Carl (45:17)
Roll your reserves out. Development cut.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (45:38)
Ultimately, you need to have the product at the end of it. And if it's going to be like them getting tonked every time they go out, like every lower league team is getting tonked by the upper team, then which doesn't quite happen like that in the football in the FA Cup. Like you get the odd one where it's like 6-7-0 to the team that's the better team. But you get that FA Cup magic. If we can produce...

Carl (45:45)
Hmm.

Yeah, the magic.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (46:01)
a bit of that and like you say Saracens are coming to town, Cornish Pirates or you know Leicester are going to London Welsh or whatever it may be and it just brings a bit of excitement. Yeah I think yeah without a doubt but maybe on a trial basis for example just to see how it how it works out but we've got to try this is the thing we're not it's almost like we're not willing to try in our game currently.

Carl (46:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

We've got to try something, I think it's got to be something.

No, yeah, I think that probably the Welsh regions also have the same issue with the centralized contract because I don't think the WRU also speak to the lower echelons as well within the regions, the clubs under that. Do you think that the Welsh, this is a proper hand grenade in here, but do you think Welsh rugby is dying? Do you think there's that disconnect between the WRU, the

the regional teams and then grassroots underneath that? Is there something fundamentally wrong with the system?

Simon Pickett (46:55)
Yeah, yeah, I've like, yeah, like I've seen it firsthand. The team my dad used to play for back in Wales, New Bridge, they're in kind of, I suppose you class it as kind of tier three at the moment, it's kind of been broken up in half to go with tier two, so half the tier two is coming down and it's all a bit messy.

Carl (47:10)
Okay.

Bye.

Simon Pickett (47:18)
And a lot of the teams have pushed back on it at the lower level. But the WRU has just gone head first, like crack on, this is what's happening. Put your applications in, less games. So the leagues have got like lesser teams in, so it's less games. Obviously there's the bar revenue, et cetera. So as you go lower down, it's slightly better, but kind of that mid-range, I suppose the equivalent of kind of your national ones, national twos.

Carl (47:21)
Yeah.

This is what's happening.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (47:46)
in England they're less games so it just makes it difficult.

Carl (47:49)
What's the reason behind that? What if they sort of publicized that or if they just sort of forced it out?

Simon Pickett (47:53)
So there's a bit of, yeah, so there's a bit of, so the line that they've sold it with is kind of obviously in Wales struggle with the weather. A lot of the team's been in the valleys and kind of the pitches being horrendous, so it kind of frees up that.

Carl (48:03)
Mm.

Simon Pickett (48:07)
kind of fixture congestion towards the end of the season. The other way they've sold it is kind of they want to reignite kind of tour matches or like the old so back in the day, for example, like Newbridge were quite a decent side back in the day that my dad played for. They would go and play kind of London, Welsh, Bristol, Gloucester as just one off games and that

Carl (48:08)
Right.

Simon Pickett (48:29)
The WIU is trying to sell it as like, you can go and have them sort of games again, albeit obviously Newbridge are not going to play Bath, but you know, you can go and have them games against Clifton or whoever it may be in those gaps.

Carl (48:41)
Are they trying to support that though? Or are they just said that's down to the local club to try and push and...

Simon Pickett (48:46)
Yeah, so they're like, that's up to you, essentially. So the opportunity for tours and friendlies and it's just, yeah.

Carl (48:53)
But then obviously the English game has got a fixture list and they've still got to meet all of those requirements throughout. So it's not like it's adapted to the rest of the game. Do you think that's obviously now coming more apparent on the international scene for Wales? Do you think that's going to seriously hamper the development? Obviously a lot of the bigger players are going to France to get their payday.

Simon Pickett (49:02)
Exactly, yeah.

Yeah

Without a doubt, with the Welsh game, there is an element you have to be reactive. So if it's working, you kind of leave it alone, which I think the Welsh did under the previous reign of Gatland. It was working, kind of the 50-cap rule, 60-cap rule, it was working. It was keeping players in Wales. The international team was doing decent. I mean, we punch above our weight all the time. That's, people kind of forget that.

Carl (49:39)
Yeah.

Simon Pickett (49:41)
and we do. But then where I feel there should be a reaction, so kind of the getting rid of the 60 cap rule because we've got so many youngsters that have gone across the borders to play for like Gloucester Academy, Exeter Academy and it's all to do with scholarships and education. So they're getting that under their belt and then because they're in with those clubs, it then becomes an issue to play for Wales.

Reece Sammet was an example of that. Luckily, he was on his original contract with Gloucester. So that's why he was able to play for Wales. If he had a one-year contract with Gloucester and played for Wales and then signed a new one, that would have been him ineligible for Wales. But we've just reduced it now. I think it's 20 caps. But that was so late on.

Carl (50:05)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (50:27)
like it's been going on now, if you think about the youngsters that have gone through the academies and are playing for the top Premiership teams, you're talking like five, six, you know this has come in for the last five, six years and we've just changed the rule to 20 caps. It's just, isn't working for us personally.

Carl (50:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I think obviously the main situation as well was that Wales, the players were willing to basically go on strike against England of all games as well to make that statement. There's clearly some massive disconnect between the WRU and the player base and by the sounds of it the rest of the club's underneath.

Simon Pickett (51:01)
Yeah, and that action was taken by the internationals who essentially had nothing to worry about. They were on the central contracts, getting paid by the clubs, the top money, and they felt so, so passionately about what was happening to the other players, kind of back at the regions where they were on six months to run their contract and players weren't getting offered new contracts or what was going on. And these guys have got mortgages, bills to pay.

Carl (51:08)
Hmm.

Simon Pickett (51:29)
and they're not aware of what's going to happen in six months' time. In terms of their contracts, just not really acceptable. Hence, the players felt so passionate to go on a strike about it.

Carl (51:31)
Yeah.

No.

It's a fair play to them. Do you think the URC does enough as a league for Welsh teams? I think obviously the inclusion of the South African teams and does that also potentially dilute Welsh rugby? Because obviously there was an opportunity for, but before South African teams come in, Welsh rugby was sort of flourishing, as you said. Do you think they've missed the boat?

Simon Pickett (51:52)
Um...

Carl (52:02)
on a lot of that as well because Scarlet or Ospreys were doing brilliantly. Cardiff Blues were putting in shifts.

Simon Pickett (52:05)
Yeah, I mean, my we've we. Yeah, like club rugby's been a struggle for a while, I think. For me personally, it depends what you want. Like, I think the I personally would go down to three regions and kind of pull that money a little bit better, a bit. Oh, so I generally think that it's probably going to happen.

Carl (52:20)
Mm.

I'll put you on the spot. Which one would you get rid of then?

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (52:32)
But I think the WRU, rather than pulling the trigger and saying, you're gone, are waiting for the first one to fall over, is my personal opinion. Yeah, and I think like, you saw it up in Scotland, didn't you? Where it's now just Glasgow and Edinburgh, and they've gone from three to two, and they've definitely benefited from it. You see the two Scottish sides doing pretty well.

Carl (52:40)
Right. Strangle the funding and then allow one to hang himself in a sense.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (52:56)
pretty decently in both the URC and in Europe. The Welsh team's just non-existent at the moment. So that's where I would go. Going back to your question, which one would I get rid of? I don't know. Probably Scarlet's, I think. And I think they're probably the ones that are struggling at the moment anyway. I just think, again, demographics of it,

Carl (53:02)
Hmm

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (53:19)
The Dragons works quite well with the Blues, and then obviously Ospreys and Scarlet's right that way. So it'd be one of them too, and I think Ospreys are in a better position than Scarlet's are. So that's where I would see it.

Carl (53:22)
Cardiff up the road.

No, it's a worrying time for Welsh rugby. I think Scotland are also probably having the same issue up there as well because I don't think their development system allows as much to come through because there's only two teams. What players are waiting in the wings to take into that into the Scotland international side because once the old guard are gone is there that

development system as well, why only having two teams? Do you think...

Simon Pickett (53:59)
Yeah, I mean, if you take the... I don't think Scotland have got a cat rule as far as I'm aware. So they, you know, the old... Yeah, well, the, you know, the older guys who then go and get their paychecks elsewhere. I think that that's, there's kind of a natural wastage in regards to that, which brings youngsters through. I mean, if you're talking about... It's getting it right, isn't it? I think in Wales at the moment, it's kind of...

Carl (54:03)
No. If you've got a South African passport, mate, you're in the team pretty much.

Hmm.

Simon Pickett (54:23)
If you think the four sides, if you go, if you say in a squad of 35 maybe, I don't know what the squad sizes are, but if you say 35, you're looking at 140 players. Do you want 140, are all those 140 players at the level that they kind of need to be to play international rugby? Or do we want to concentrate on the top, you know, yeah, well, you know, top 70 in terms of a couple of squads or?

Carl (54:31)
Mm-hmm.

Top 20, yeah, 25.

Simon Pickett (54:50)
If you're talking 115 or whatever, if you're going to do three teams, concentrate on that. If we're talking about the elite, elite game and getting the best for Wales as an international side, I would...

Carl (55:00)
I think England have sort of brought back the England Saxons as well. I think they've realised that development piece has got to come back. Have the Wales sort of got the same set up? Have they got a development team underneath?

Simon Pickett (55:11)
Yeah, they're not looking at it at all. I mean, even I think the sevens funding is cut for whales. So, whales aren't even on the seven circuit anymore. So, even that as a development piece, which does work. Certainly for kind of your back rowers and your back frees, I think it's a good development piece. Sevens, so they've cut the funding for that. But yeah, I don't see a...

Carl (55:22)
Right.

Yep.

Simon Pickett (55:33)
I don't see a Wales A as such any time in the near future.

Carl (55:37)
Do you think that would help? I think international exposure to a certain level would probably, would that bridge the gap or is this a big, is that a sticky plaster a little bit too late to now chuck in the mix?

Simon Pickett (55:39)
Um...

I don't know, to be honest. I think only like, again, it's one of those things that like, let's do it and see what happens. And if it's developing players over in the next, like you do it for two years and you get half a dozen that come through, then you have to say it works. I don't know, because of the whole, our player base is quite small.

Carl (55:54)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Simon Pickett (56:09)
So I don't know if there is a requirement, you know, by the time they've played under 18s, under 21s, are they then at a point where they, you're either at Wales first team or you're not? England's slightly different, in my opinion, because of the player base you've got. I mean, it's constant arguments from the supporters, isn't it? Like, who should be in the England squad? And it happens all the time.

Carl (56:17)
In or not, yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (56:31)
I think potentially there is an element of like, well, yeah, let's pull them in and give them a run out against Samoa, for example, or your Fijis, and not necessarily against your top nations. I mean, they kind of do that, don't they, on a lion's year where England will go away on tour and it'll kind of be an England A side because the main guys have gone away with the British Lions.

Carl (56:37)
Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think what they've, I saw a stat the other day. So the under 20s is obviously a lot of countries use that as their development piece as well. And I think, I saw a stat the other day from two, since 2003, Argentina have actually brought 85 players from their under 20s into their first team, which is a.

unreal stat and I don't think many other countries got close to that. So Argentina are literally able to predict probably their 15 every seat from their under 20s and what a path and what a system to know that there's actually a massive chance and I wonder what the retention rate of under 20s in Wales and stuff like that and in England, what is the retention of under 20s into the actual first team?

at an international level is also quite, because under 20s, Italy have now massively moved forward with that. Their under 20s are turning over trees in the six nations.

Simon Pickett (57:55)
And again, I wonder if, because again, I don't know too much about Argentinian rugby, but in terms of their youngsters and their, I don't think there's really that much kind of academy opportunity. So when they're casting their eye for Argentina under 20s, they're literally looking at everybody. And then

Carl (58:08)
No.

Yeah, a lot of Argentinians have come over to Spain and they come over to the French leagues to sort of apply their trade as well. And they get blooded into a decent level of rugby straight away. Their time of shine is, as you said, that under-20s piece and 80-odd players that have come through from that system. It's just phenomenal.

Simon Pickett (58:39)
Yeah, I just wonder if they're casting their net that little bit wider than we do with the academy setups. Most of the top tier nations have got clubs with academy setups, so they're just looking at that when it comes to selecting Wales under 20s and England under 20s. And they're missing out on lads that are 19-20 playing for the championship teams or slightly under that.

Carl (58:42)
Mm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Pickett (59:04)
Yeah, that kind of stat points me in that direction again, kind of confirming the fact that, you know, it's where you're kind of, where you're getting picked up early rather than necessarily that late developer who might get in.

Carl (59:08)
Hmm.

Yeah.

No, I think, yeah, I think there's a very rigid system in a lot of the top tier of rugby, whereas the others are able to probably cast their net a little bit wider, and you could turn up trees in the championship and the door's not closed for certain countries. I think we've probably discussed pretty much everything.

Si to be honest mate and thank you so much for your time today and great to shine a little light on the purple cobras and the epilepsy piece which is so close to your heart and when the pod goes out we'll obviously get all the links and get it shared and if there's any fundraising piece we'll try and push that forward as well mate because it's a great cause.

another one that's close to everyone in Gosport's heart as well. So it's a massive thank you for you to come on, mate, and share the love a little bit.

Simon Pickett (1:00:10)
Cheers, five a man.

Cheers, thank you very much.

Carl (1:00:13)
No worries. Cheers.

Carl (1:00:13)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you've made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and to express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues So in today's episode, we discussed with Si Pickett from the Purple Cobras, the social seven scene, the ambition to spread the word around epilepsy after his daughter's diagnosis. We also discussed his rugby journey and the big question is,

Welsh rugby dead, which by the sounds of it, according to a Welshman, that is correct. Next week, we will be welcoming Liam Perkins, now of Petersfield, to discuss his move into coaching after a hugely successful career at Worthing. And we also get to discuss his decision to move to Worthing earlier in his career after being promoted with Ealing to Nat 1 Once again,

huge thank you to all of you for tuning in. Thank you and goodbye.