Michelle Holdsworth: Captaining England Women's Deaf Rugby | Rugby TTL

Michelle Holdsworth, captain of England Women's Deaf Rugby, on the challenges deaf players face and the fight for funding.

In this episode: deaf rugby; the funding fight; captaincy; raising the profile.

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Carl (00:10)
Hello and welcome to the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This podcast wants to shine a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I am Carl. I am an avid rugby fan and regularly injured player. Thanks for joining us on the next instalment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast.

We want to say a massive thank you to everyone that's been following our socials and supporting this journey so far. We'd love to get even more feedback from you on the topics discussed and also guests you'd like to see on the pod. It was another great weekend of rugby. Obviously two great games played in the European Challenge Cup and the European Champions Cup finals.

The Rugby Europe Conference title was also won by Luxembourg with a 19 -0 win over Moldova. Due to the ongoing issues in Israel, there was not the full format the conference played out this year, with Latvia missing out on their opportunity after a very good group stage. The Division de honor title was won by Valladolid after a 20-19 victory over Burgos. A little bit of revenge there from the Copa del Rey defeat.

few weeks ago. Burgos even missed a penalty with about three minutes less in the game to play. Xabia Aguiles went on tour this weekend, that's probably why I sound a little bit croaky still, playing in a beach sevens tournament in Alicante. It was a great spectacle for sport with beach volleyball and many other sports all set up along the beach for spectators and players to enjoy. The Aguiles lost in the final to a sudden death try.

The S16 is putting an absolute shift and we cannot wait for next season. With no further ado, this week we have an England captain on as our guest. Yeah, I still can't believe how early on in the pod's journey that we've managed to get an England captain. But here we are. Michelle is the England captain for the England women's deaf team and is having to raise money to get herself and the team on tour this summer in South Africa.

to any money that you can send their way will be going to a great cause.

We get to discuss Michelle's journey through rugby and how she became deaf due to a rugby incident and how it's actually even progressed her rugby journey further than she probably even thought it would be able to. I think it's time that we get on with this great interview now.

Carl (02:21)
We now have Michelle Holdsworth on from England Rugby. So kind of a big deal today. So Michelle, lovely to have you on. Thank you so much for making the time. Would you like to do a little intro of what you've got and then we can start going for the usual questions.

Michelle Holdsworth (02:38)
So I'm the captain of the EDRU so England Deaf Rugby Union. We are either profoundly deaf or hard of hearing players that all come together nationally and play international rugby.

Carl (02:52)
Awesome. That's an amazing feat. How long have you been part of the system then?

Michelle Holdsworth (02:56)
Part of the EDRU, about six years now, but it has been long running before I came along and a lot of effort and hard work has been put into establishing a charity run rugby for the disability of being deaf.

Carl (03:04)
Awesome.

Yeah, and for that to, if you have to highlight that as well as a charity at international level, that's quite concerning that we're not supporting every aspect of Rugby

Michelle Holdsworth (03:23)
I think it's quite hard because there's certain players that are absolutely outstanding and they're having to self -fund themselves for tours. Our team manager, Gloria, she's out there finding sponsorship and getting the money to get us established and her name out there to Mecca's well -known to be fair and she breaks her back to do that.

Carl (03:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, so obviously we've got Michelle on because Michelle, you've got to raise, what is it, £2 ,500 to get yourself sort of to a tour in South Africa in August, is that correct? International tour?

Michelle Holdsworth (03:58)
Yeah, £2 ,200 per player and then as an establishment on top of that, the EDRU has got to also raise £10 ,000 for us to be able to tour to South Africa and play against them.

Carl (04:08)
Wow.

So is that a three game tour? Is it a one game tour? Or have you got other games, three games? It's just crazy that we're in the world that we've got now. You've effectively got to self -fund it and your coach is out there probably with a bucket rattling coins trying to get as much money in the door that you guys have got to go on tour. Obviously that's why we've got you on today to help try and push that message across and we can get that.

Michelle Holdsworth (04:15)
Three game tests now. Yeah, three game tests. Yeah.

Carl (04:41)
get along to that a bit further along. So, Michelle, thank you so much again. Can you tell us your rugby journey? Where did you start? were you born deaf or did it develop? Did you sort of find out later on in life and then that was the aspect of rugby or was it a case of you playing rugby and that was that from the start?

Michelle Holdsworth (05:02)
So a lot of the girls are deaf from birth or profoundly deaf from birth or in childhood they've had problems with hearing. Mine's through rugby. So in the bottom of a ruck get my head stamped on, my ear pop, can't hear out my left ear. So from a bad situation became a good situation because the set of girls that I play alongside are absolutely fantastic. It's a huge family.

Carl (05:17)
Whoa. Ooh.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (05:30)
It's so welcoming and I've met, like I said, another family alongside my own.

Carl (05:36)
Yeah, that's amazing. That's rugby though for you, isn't it? So obviously, as you mentioned then, you got a little stamp in a ruck We've all been there. It's usually a hand, not quite an ear, and then becoming deaf out of it. So who were you playing for then? Was that obviously to a level in women's rugby or was...

Michelle Holdsworth (05:39)
Yeah.

That were Don Castedemons playing for them their NC1 level. So I've played NC1, NC2. I've played one game at North of England. I've played for Yorkshire and I've also played for Lancashire.

Carl (06:01)
Wow. Okay.

Wow. So you've done really well to, and then obviously, well, to be honest by the sounds of it, it's benefit of the deaf game as well, because you've now managed to become England captain for the deaf, the deaf women's team, is that correct? So that's.

Michelle Holdsworth (06:29)
Yeah, I'm honoured that I got asked to become captain because I had big boots to fill from the previous captain. High expectations. But like I said, the up and coming girls that are coming into this team now, it just blows you away because rugby for me saved my life because it gave me the avenue to play, to release my anger, my... Any worries on that pitch.

Carl (06:36)
Yep.

Michelle Holdsworth (06:58)
You forget it all. You play your game. You come off. You have a pint. And it's absolutely breathtaking. But the girls that are coming into the EDRU now, I'm an old has been these girls are going to absolutely blow the socks off this game coming in the next five to 10 years.

Carl (07:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amazing. So obviously, how long ago did you, was the Ruck, when was the ear damage caused? Was it seven years? So did you just sort of stop normal rugby or did you continue but try to cover up being deaf or was it you kind of got to be able to scoop straight up into the EDR family and was able to really push?

Michelle Holdsworth (07:27)
Seven years ago. Seven years ago. Yeah.

Carl (07:46)
push on with your rugby in that avenue or was it a lot of people, I've played with a few lads that have been deaf or still deaf obviously, it doesn't sort of disappear, they're deaf but they tried to mask it for so long but then they managed to put their hands up and said, well actually no I am and then they've been able to take their game away in another avenue as well. So how does that work for you?

Michelle Holdsworth (08:10)
Yeah, like I'm quite outgoing so what you see is what you get with me but some of the girls really do mask it because they feel that they could be treated differently and they shouldn't feel like that. Like the first game I ever played for the EDRU, it was in Portsmouth and a big travel... There's a lot of travel involved and these women travelling from Scotland...

Carl (08:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Love it. I'm a Pompey boy, so that's perfect.

Michelle Holdsworth (08:39)
just to come play the game of rugby and actually be accepted for being a little bit different, for having an impairment which can impinge and we all come together and actually play a game of rugby actually very well now.

Carl (08:47)
Yeah.

So is there much adaption to the game or is it kind of as normal? Do you have to adapt any of the game or is it just the case? Because as you said, some of them were born deaf that played, so they probably understand the game throughout. So like in rugby, sometimes you don't need to make a signal. You know your mate's going to be there. Is that being able to train week in, week out that that is effectively the same sort of scenario or has there been slight tweaks?

Michelle Holdsworth (09:20)
We don't get to train week in, week out. We get to train once a month. So like on crouch, bind and set in the scrum, the refs using hand signals. Our profoundly deaf players, some of them, we've got a flanker, she's an animal on the pitch and we have to pull her back because sometimes the refs blow on the whistle and she's still tear -arting it down the pitch to score that try. So...

Carl (09:27)
Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Michelle Holdsworth (09:49)
We have to know each other in terms of if we know that whistle goes we have to communicate as a team to get everybody into place.

Carl (09:50)
Well, let's see.

Yeah. Yeah.

Usually a flanker's in the middle of a scrap though, to be fair. So it was probably easier to try to drag them back from scoring a try and trying to keep constantly getting them out of the scrap. So we all know that that's the drill. So, okay, that's amazing. So obviously when you entered into the EDR system seven years ago, did you ever envisage this is where you'd be? Now as England captain.

Michelle Holdsworth (10:01)
Yeah, that's the one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To be fair...

Carl (10:26)
Was that ever on your radar or was that, as you said, an absolute honour to be representing your country?

Michelle Holdsworth (10:32)
No, it's not. It's an honor and a privilege to ever get selected to be captain of any team. But to be fair, I wasn't expecting it. But and like I said, I had huge boots to fill. But I always pride myself on team, family, rugby. And rugby is at the forefront of everything I do. It keeps me going. It keeps me sane. And to be fair, if it was anything that EDRU I'd do anything to help.

Carl (10:37)
Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (11:01)
see it thrive, to see it grow, to actually get the funding that it actually deserves. So I would always push, no matter what, whether I were captain or just a player, to try and get that name out there for the men and the women, to be fair, because we're all self -funded. And it's quite sad that these players, some of them from a bad financial background that are having to try and scrape together enough for a tour of a lifetime.

Carl (11:07)
Yeah.

Well, most of these have probably got jobs alongside training. As you said, if you can only train once a month, they've got a normal job. They've got the normal commitments. The cost of living is affecting everyone as it is anyway. So it still baffles me that we're having to have discussions around funding teams at any international level, let alone at the upper echelons.

As you said, you sort of said that you played NC1, which was a very good standard. Do you think if your ear wasn't damaged in that ruck could you have gone higher? Do you think you could have made it as part of that Premier 15s that's now rocking around? Is that where you could have been?

Michelle Holdsworth (12:13)
I personally feel I started rugby at 27, so I started too late. I found the love of rugby a little too late. I would have loved to play at that standard, but I think I found it a little too late and I'm very lucky for the opportunities I've actually had in the 10 years I've been playing.

Carl (12:17)
Bye.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. So do you think the women's set up is now...

it's actually being supported or do you think the RFU are using it as a way of masking their other deficiencies within? Do you think it's been...

Michelle Holdsworth (12:49)
I think the women, the England women are doing phenomenal and I think it's taking the performance of the men away and I think the women are excelling and showcasing what rugby's about, how to behave on the pitch, how the performance is, the score line and just how rugby's supposed to be played and I think now they're seeing that they can sell tickets for women.

Carl (12:54)
Hmm.

Mm.

Yep.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (13:18)
Fill stadiums with women and it's taken a long time to get there.

Carl (13:18)
Yep.

No, it's awesome to see, but do you think they're now going to tax that because the tickets are within a good price point for women's rugby? They're not overpriced, it's still accessible for the masses. Do you think that they're now going to find that as an open door for a cash cow now that they know they can get 60 ,000 in Twickers?

Michelle Holdsworth (13:43)
It's very possible, but it's hard to say because I don't sit behind that desk and make those figures up.

Carl (13:51)
I'm not sure anyone does sit beyond that desk. I think there's probably many of these sort of conversations that don't really make it outside. But it's amazing to see. I've watched the women's game for a long time as well. And as you said, the standard of rugby is phenomenal. And what they're doing for English rugby as well is covering up some of the other deficiencies that the men's game is highlighting, especially...

Michelle Holdsworth (13:53)
I'll see you tomorrow.

Carl (14:19)
now that there's more women's teams growing within the own premiership, let alone the men's game that's dropping off. So hopefully it is another way of making sure this beautiful game is available to everyone.

Michelle Holdsworth (14:36)
Yeah, and hopefully not a lot more law changes happen to affect the game also.

Carl (14:42)
So obviously the rule changes are down as well, rugby rule changes. Do they come across into the deaf game? Is that another one that you have to adapt to further?

Michelle Holdsworth (14:55)
No, we follow all the law changes that normal rugby players. It's just basically the communication side that we struggle with and we have to adapt ourselves to knowing how our players play.

Carl (14:58)
Okay.

Yeah.

So obviously as you said, with your flanker that just disappears down the pitch to score a try, how do you adapt to that? Does somebody have to run after them or is somebody just trying to get their attention from the sidelines or?

Michelle Holdsworth (15:22)
Sometimes it's a signal, a hand wave, sometimes in a scrum, just a pull of a shirt, if you're in a mall, if you're in a line -up. There's certain things that players know about certain players that they'll either tap them or they'll pull them back. It's just knowing that family member.

Carl (15:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's amazing. So obviously when you were playing rugby, obviously now we know that it's both sides of the ability fence. We've got when you started and now obviously with England's game, as you said, there's some players that are gonna really dominate in the coming years. Who did you play with?

that has gone on to make it, say, Premiership Rugby, et cetera, or obviously gone on to further international level. I know you're playing at an international level as it is. So is anyone that you've gone on to play with that's gone on to make it, and was it obvious when you played with them?

Michelle Holdsworth (16:21)
I was very lucky to play two games alongside Jodie Hounsler. She plays for Exeter Chiefs, she's been one of the gladiators. She is absolutely phenomenal and so down to earth. So yeah, totally. A lot of people knew that they were expecting big things from her.

Carl (16:27)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Really?

That's amazing. So obviously you had the privilege of a couple of games there and probably being, you sit there and you think, I actually managed to be part of that. Did you put your flag on it? Did you say you made, that you were part of making it for her?

Michelle Holdsworth (16:58)
I didn't make anything for that girl. Her dad and herself made that impossible. I met her twice, like I said, and I were very lucky to play alongside her, but I did nothing for that girl to get where she is. That's down to herself.

Carl (17:08)
Not clear to ruck out for, to score a try or anything, to put her on prime time.

Michelle Holdsworth (17:16)
That fast I would never ever be able to catch up to her down that wing and I'm a prop so no.

Carl (17:20)
You never know, sometimes all these props, we always get lost on the pitch and sometimes it works out. we've now got the other question. Who did you play with that should have made it but didn't?

Michelle Holdsworth (17:27)
Sometimes. Sometimes.

That's a difficult one because I've played alongside a lot of different playing positions that are phenomenal in their own right. Because people think rugby players or the fast ones are the best or the triscorers are the best. But really, the ones that slug it out in those contests, and I'm all for these silent but deadly players. And I've played alongside a couple of players, but there was one player at Halifax when I played alongside her.

Carl (17:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Michelle Holdsworth (18:08)
Lucy Cochrane, silent but deadly. Would go in the forward, do what she needed to do in the forwards. Would go in the backs, do what she needed to do in the backs. But she just, I think, life takes over. She's still playing now at a good level, NC1, but she could have probably gone a lot further.

Carl (18:09)
It's got a current, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm guessing she's been around probably the last 10 years, like you sort of said, you got into the game roughly, if not a bit more.

Michelle Holdsworth (18:30)
sorry.

I started at Alifax, so yes, she was my first team I went to.

Carl (18:37)
Wow, so obviously rugby, the women's games come a long way in the last 10 years. Do you think if that was set up like it is now, she would be one of them? As you say, those players are critical to a team. It doesn't always need to be the flashy white boots wearing backs that are running around the wing. Teams need the ones that are willing to be able to put the yards in and just do the dirty work, get the rest of the platform built and then allow them to play. Do you?

Do you think she was of that level that if rugby was at now, she would be able to make that as a problem? Really? I wonder how...

Michelle Holdsworth (19:10)
Most definitely. Undefeated player but she was the one that you knew. If you were taking that ball in, she'd be there. She was just a stonker of a player.

Carl (19:23)
Yeah.

I wonder how many players got lost to the system because the game was so slow and so far behind.

Michelle Holdsworth (19:32)
I think a lot. I think a lot.

Carl (19:34)
It's quite amazing and it's not even just in the women's game, it's probably in the men's game as well. Because if you're not part of an academy, you don't really get picked up. But there's a lot of players that you think, actually, you could probably still do that sort of job like Lucy, you were saying about Lucy. They do the hard work, they do all the stuff, the non -flashy showboating stuff that teams need to grind out. And there's...

I think that's potentially what's happened in the Premiership. There's not as many of those players. Because it's so regimented, there are certain players that have only got certain roles. They can't be within certain other positions. Do you sort of agree with that?

Michelle Holdsworth (20:13)
Yeah, the utility players are the main players on that pitch. The ones that go unnoticed that are hitting rucks, hitting those breakdowns every single time. And you know, you might make two or three breaks with a ball, but you know that that same person is going to be behind you every time you take that ball in. And they do go and make...

Carl (20:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, they're literally in your pocket, before you even know you're attached. Like, I can run! They're just chuffing you along a little bit more.

Michelle Holdsworth (20:35)
Yeah, there's certain times you look around and you know by the boots you know which person it is, it's the same person every time.

Carl (20:43)
Yeah, yeah, they're, they are critical for the game. And I wonder how many have gone, gone missing within the system. we now get to talk about the trip to, to South Africa. that's coming up in August, correct?

Michelle Holdsworth (20:58)
Yeah, August the 1st to the 10th.

Carl (21:00)
Okay, so nine days in, what is it, dotted around South Africa or are you just flying to Joberg or?

Michelle Holdsworth (21:08)
We're going to Joberg, we're going to the sports performance facilities there, staying there and obviously playing the three test matches, the men and the women.

Carl (21:19)
Okay, brilliant. So it's sort of a combined tour between the men's and the women's game.

Michelle Holdsworth (21:26)
Gloria always tries to say the women are the same as the men. The coaches are fantastic, Fulham and Jack, they're always trying to integrate the men with the women so the women know that they're as equally important as the men.

Carl (21:30)
Yeah.

I completely agree, yeah. So it's when, yeah, as you said, there's a lot of stuff that gets separated just because they think it's easier. So have you got any warm -up games? Is the case of just out there and you're straight into the middle of three internationals, what, a couple of days apart or?

Michelle Holdsworth (21:57)
We basically just played, well we played a friendly against Bedford Invitational, the women, because Wales were unavailable and the men played against Wales men as a warm -up game ready for August to avoid injuries before we travel. And then we fly out, we've got a couple of days training and getting ourselves together and then every other day we've got a test match.

Carl (22:03)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

That's crazy, isn't it? Just shovel it in. Is it gonna be televised? Do you know if it's gonna be accessible on the likes of YouTube or something like that, at least?

Michelle Holdsworth (22:29)
most

The World Cup in Argentina was a televised for us. We think it will be, but it's down to the South African sides. More than likely. I can't comment for 100 % sure, but more than likely.

Carl (22:40)
Right.

Obviously, hopefully it is and then we can share that to try and get as many people watching the games as possible as well for you. So obviously with the three tests, is it a game where the women's play in the morning and the men's are after or is it alternating so you guys get the spotlight on the days that you've got your games or are they going to just try and adapt both games onto one?

Michelle Holdsworth (23:14)
We haven't had the agenda fully released, but normally, either the men will play in the morning or the women will play in the morning and then the men will play in the afternoon. And it's normally on the same day. So like when we went to Bedford, both teams, the women played at two o 'clock and the men then played at four o 'clock. So as soon as the women were ready, we went to support the men. But there's been occasions where the men have started early and then stayed to support the women. It is a huge unit.

Carl (23:21)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, it's brilliant. So how did the Bedford game go? What was the result?

Michelle Holdsworth (23:48)
55 17 win.

Carl (23:51)
Lovely. And the men's against Wales.

Michelle Holdsworth (23:54)
I think it was 55 -15 the men. Another win.

Carl (23:58)
Okay, awesome. That's a great sign to take with you. Probably a lot of people come away buzzing from that as well to get yourself ready to take on the South Africans.

Michelle Holdsworth (24:11)
Yeah, well, hopefully we'll be coming home with a couple of wins there, too.

Carl (24:15)
It's got to be a tall win at least. It can't be coming back with anything less. how long have you now been England captain?

Michelle Holdsworth (24:18)
Yeah, definitely,

I jumped into the role last year, but I didn't have a full season last year and then I got asked again this season to become captain. So roughly about seven months.

Carl (24:27)
Yeah.

Okay.

Awesome. So with that, you've got the added responsibilities as well. Have you sort of felt yourself become a bit more like a mother hen? As you said, you've got a lot of people coming through the system. You're trying to help develop them as well as making sure that you've got everything ready as part of that family to go and really put it.

put it to the South Africans. If you have many other games as captain so far as well that you've...

Michelle Holdsworth (25:08)
I've had two other games as captain. They were learning curves because I'm quite a force to be reckoned with on the pitch. You've got to learn how to handle your players and the women out there, they handle different things differently. So I'm learning. Every day is a learning curve, but every player is different too. So I'm always trying to accommodate different personalities, different ways.

Carl (25:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (25:38)
and I'm still learning and it's a big learn but I'm trying to do my best because like I said some of these young players coming through if I can just push them to just push themselves a little bit more big things could happen with some of them.

Carl (25:52)
with them being part of the EDR system, do they play club rugby for deaf teams or are they available to play in normal rugby? Okay.

Michelle Holdsworth (26:08)
They're playing normal league games. They're playing from low level rugby, some of the ladies, to high standard championship rugby. So all walks of life, they're playing. They're playing weekly at their clubs and then they're also committing to training with the EDRU. So it's a big ask from them to do all the travelling and the fundraising and everything that they have to do.

Carl (26:17)
Yeah.

Awesome. So they've...

Yeah?

So normally where do you sort of gather to train then on that once a month? Because I'm guessing you can't, as you said, you're called coming from a bit of everywhere. Is there a central place or have you pulled rank and now you're captain, everyone's got to travel up to here?

Michelle Holdsworth (26:51)
No, no, no. Basically we meet at Bromsgrove, so that's in the centre, but there's people coming from Devon travelling four and a half, five hours, and that's self -funded. There's people coming from Scotland catching flights down to Birmingham, that's self -funded. And that's all for the Love of Rugby.

Carl (26:56)
Okay. Yeah.

Yep. Wow.

Jeez. Yeah. Yeah, that's just obscene.

Michelle Holdsworth (27:13)
I'm playing on a team that's inclusive to their disability of being deaf. So I'm wanting to show that showcase that they're just as good as any other player.

Carl (27:17)
Yeah.

I'm 100 % and as I said, I've played with lads that have sort of covered it up to an extent, but you wouldn't know that they had any sort of issue in that sense of hearing. They played their game, they'd done every job properly. They didn't miss a ball, didn't miss a beat. But again, it's that inclusivity of teams understanding if there's something that they've missed.

there's a reason and how to adapt around it, which is by the sounds of it, you guys pretty much got nailed and working pretty well in that sense. So with the calls, I'm quite intrigued by this. So obviously in your training, is there, when you do finally get together, is a lot of it just what they've gathered together from club rugby or is there the same sort of drills that...

at international level and saying, right, we're going to do this or do any of the girls play together in their own teams that they've come down or is everyone literally just together and then this is the drill, this is how we're going to try and run through this play, this play, this play.

Michelle Holdsworth (28:35)
Yeah, so we've got a forward coach and a head coach. So they tell us what we have to do. It's the same as any international or any normal club level rugby. So we still do the drills, but it's just like about communication. So we can't just be saying, we're doing this. So there might be a sign on the pitch where we're signing a crash ball or we might be signing a black ball or different things. And people might think, why are they doing that?

Carl (28:39)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (29:05)
that with the hands, well we're actually signing a call that we're going to be doing on that pitch and you don't actually know what we're going to just bring to the table.

Carl (29:10)
Bye so much.

No, that's just, that's amazing. So sign language, sorry for my naivety. Is there sort of a universal or is there ways of like the dark magic as we know, you can sort of do a certain signal that can throw other teams off or is there sort of universal signals that are used within the game? Do you know what I mean? Or...

Michelle Holdsworth (29:41)
So we've got some sign language, some that can actually sign to the profoundly deaf and we always try and bring the sign language into the calls. So if we're calling from a certain ball, we're going to be signing that so the other girls that are profoundly deaf know what's happening. So even if it's just a small, a rhino ball, we'll be doing the sign for a rhino ball or if it's going to be hot, we're going to be signing hot.

Carl (29:45)
Right, okay. Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (30:08)
So I don't want to give all my calls away because somebody might be listening. But the ladies bring what actually some people may think is a hindrance or might alter the game down for them. They bring it and make it a positive. And it actually works very well on that pitch with the girls that we've got that are signing and bringing the...

Carl (30:08)
Wow.

No, no, no, I'm not, the last thing I want to do is that, but.

Michelle Holdsworth (30:36)
the profoundly deaf to the partially deaf to everything on that pitch working together. We gel really well.

Carl (30:43)
I'm just absolutely amazed of it because a lot of lads don't listen on the pitch when they're allowed, when they've got the ability to listen. So being able to adapt the game and it works so well with the signals, it's again, it's that creating that rugby family

So do you have to, in NFL there's a playbook. Do you sort of all sit down after a session and sort of say, this is the signal or is it a couple of minutes in between the sort of the drill where you say, well, actually we're gonna adapt this or I'm gonna add this, this and this in to try and, or is it literally, this is as simple as it is, I'm gonna do a giraffe ball or whatever and I'm just gonna sign a giraffe.

Michelle Holdsworth (31:25)
No, so basically we're a team. So the team has to decide. So, the foot gets split, backs get split, backs go and do all their fancy pants stuff. So forwards will get in a huddle, we'll agree on it, we'll set it out, done. This is what players were going to do. And we decide as a team because it doesn't take one person to win a game, it takes the whole team, subs as well. So we all need to be on the same page and we are learning slowly but surely.

Carl (31:29)
Okay.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (31:53)
When everyone's on that same page, magic things happen. The last game we played, we were outstanding and hopefully we can continue that by being together.

Carl (31:58)
Yeah.

So with, so obviously your line out calls and stuff, most people are normally shouting during the line out, I'm guessing it predetermined, you know exactly where you're going, that's it. Do you have a cancel Like sometimes if it's not gonna go the direction, there's a technique for it as well.

Michelle Holdsworth (32:19)
Yeah, there's a sign for cancel, there's a sign for crash, there's a sign for mall and it's all dictated by us as main caller.

Carl (32:32)
Okay, so you've got a pack leader or a line out caller, that's it. That's the drill. Okay. Sorry to sound really, really, really, really naive here. It's amazing. It really...

Michelle Holdsworth (32:35)
Yep. Yep.

But we... No, no, no, no. No, no, no. We've moved the calls up. We've decided the calls at training. So we're setting that one person up with a big job, to be fair, because on the day, it's down to them. But we've initiated a couple of players that we know are up to the job that can get that line out very well. And it's working.

Carl (32:56)
Yeah.

Yeah. It'd be fucked if they forgot how to sign in the middle of a line out or whatever. Absolutely screwed. shit. Just throwing around the Team America signal or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody else having a shout at it. Yeah. Christ. So after South Africa, is there...

Michelle Holdsworth (33:03)
Yeah, definitely.

Well that's when the Cancel Bar would come in!

Carl (33:21)
Is there any more tours next season? What's the plan? Is it literally just game by game at the minute within the EDR system or?

Michelle Holdsworth (33:32)
The EDRU every year releases the plan of action of which international games are going to play, what tours are going to happen. So once the South Africa tour is done and we come home hopefully with a win, the management team and the committee will get together, they'll do all the slogging behind the scenes that the players don't see, then they'll bring out their training dates, the game dates, the tour dates and what funding we'll need for that season.

Carl (33:42)
Yeah.

Yep.

So the South Africa tour is the end of the current season, is that correct? Is that kind of where we're at?

Michelle Holdsworth (34:07)
I think how it's falling, it's the start of our new season, but we'll get the games and stuff announced after South Africa so we're not over filling our brains.

Carl (34:12)
Okay.

Yeah, that's fair enough. So where is the normal home pitch for the England team? Is it a bit of a nomad system? Do you kind of, what's available for games or is there, like Doncaster have got, the women's go up there quite a lot now, obviously with the, have you got an allocated stadium or is that another RFU decision that's not?

Michelle Holdsworth (34:48)
So England, England, death don't have their own fixed grounds or stadium. It'd be absolutely lovely if we could get our own fixed home grounds and stadium or funding for that, because it would be really well used. And what the what the the team manager does is she does the home games and she tries to distribute it. So sometimes we're up north, sometimes we're down south, sometimes we're in the middle.

Carl (35:00)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yep.

Yep.

Michelle Holdsworth (35:16)
there's a lot of travel so to be fair to us all as players she tries to ammine to different locations. Obviously away games is obviously who we're playing against so we may have a trip over to Wales, we've had a trip to Argentina to play in the World Cup last year, it varies, it's just like normal rugby.

Carl (35:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, so how was the World Cup? How was Argentina?

Michelle Holdsworth (35:42)
hot and it was seven so a prop plane sevens it were hard graft and But we did come second

Carl (35:44)
Yeah.

well. Amazing. So, really good, real worthwhile trip. Was that just before you become captain? Was that the final swung song by the previous captain or?

Michelle Holdsworth (36:01)
So I managed to go over to Argentina as captain.

Carl (36:07)
wow, okay. Brilliant.

Michelle Holdsworth (36:09)
So I was very lucky to actually experience that because, like I said, I'm coming to the end of my time playing rugby and every little thing is moment, it's phenomenal what I've managed to do in my time that I've played.

Carl (36:15)
Yep.

Mmm.

Yeah, just be able to pull on the England shirt once, let alone, and then be able to call yourself captain is, yeah, it's phenomenal.

Michelle Holdsworth (36:28)
Yeah.

Carl (36:31)
Do you, this is, I'm going a bit off piece here. Do you think there is the scope for our...

An EDRU version of a women's team to be able to compete in the premier 15s, is there scope for that within the men's game as well, rather than trying to make them inclusive, as you said? Do you think there's a way of adapting the leagues to be able to support the same vision, or is it there's people that are not at that level?

because of that or do you think that with the inclusivity that we've got to really embrace that there is a capability if some of these players could actually create a really good team to compete against the pros in that sense?

Michelle Holdsworth (37:19)
Yeah, no, I totally, totally think if the teams could train regular and the funding out there to support the players, that some of the girls on the EDRU side and some of the men on the EDRU side, in fact, all of them with the correct coaching and the correct fitness, anything is possible with the teams. But funding and training and.

Carl (37:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (37:46)
help along the way, like not having our own grounds to go to train at, it's a real big thing for us.

Carl (37:53)
Hmm.

It's a real shame. We mentioned it earlier as well, the amount of people that probably got lost in the system early on within the women's game before it become the new franchised product for the RFU to promote another way of rugby. Could you foresee that becoming the mixed ability game?

you think it's solely down to funding or do you think there is a certain level of...

at archaic systems that are holding everything back? Or do you think it's solely funding?

Michelle Holdsworth (38:29)
them.

I think 80 % is solely funding, but then also 20 % is not having the right publicity, getting your name out there to entice the players that are deaf to let them know, listen, there's a team here that will welcome you, hope and armed, any level, we'll train you, you come together and we'll play decent rugby. And I think the scope is the women are doing absolutely phenomenal, but...

Carl (38:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (38:57)
A lot of players would have heard, or a lot of people would have heard of, of England deaf women. So why aren't the women coming alongside to help the England deaf women?

Carl (39:01)
No.

I agree. I think they've obviously had their own battle and hopefully that they can now lead the charge into other aspects. But my fear is that they've been lost into the system now because they know they've got their funding. They don't want to probably upset the apple cart of trying to push for other funding. I know there's a lot of players push the dream and say that they'll stick by everyone, but...

I think a lot of them have kind of, they're worried that it's gonna upset the apple cart and do they think they're gonna lose funding from their side? Or do you think that's unfair?

Michelle Holdsworth (39:42)
And it's very difficult in terms of financial situations are hard and it's who to pick and where to pick in. And I think certain players are getting missed like we've said previously because they're getting overseen because they aren't getting the showcase that they need.

Carl (39:49)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, agreed. So obviously the previous games you said the World Cup was shown, was that on YouTube or was there actual? Yeah. So your other games against Bedford, was that on YouTube? Was there any of that sort of coverage? Because Bedford have got their own system, haven't they? Because they've got Championship Rugby there.

Michelle Holdsworth (40:09)
Yeah, you too, yeah.

Bedford.

yeah, Bedford were really brilliant. It was a brilliant game against Bedford. Wales women were unable to play us and Bedford stepped in straight away and found a team for us to play as. They were amazing. The only thing was, was the changing facilities at Bedford Blues. Only had two changing rooms, so our team manager had to really get Bedford Invitational's ground.

Carl (40:25)
Yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (40:49)
we had to use two different grounds. So the cameras were set up at Bedford Blues for the men, but they would have been set up for the women prior. They've always been set up for the women prior, but it just coincided where we were playing at different grounds and the cameras couldn't be at two places.

Carl (40:59)
Okay.

That's a shame. Again, it's rugby having to adapt to systems as not having the full facility package there.

So you've mentioned it as well, you're coming to the end of your career in that sense. How long do you reckon you've got?

Michelle Holdsworth (41:27)
I didn't think I'd have this season in me. And I've been training and I've been pushing myself. So I had one of the best games against Bedford that I've had in a while because I'm obviously getting older and having a child affected my body as well. But I'm hoping I can get one more season at least out of me.

Carl (41:29)
Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, so do you play club rugby as well? At the minute are you playing?

Michelle Holdsworth (41:51)
I was playing rugby for Oldham and I'm just finding a new team more local to myself due to the fact of travel commitments with my son.

Carl (42:03)
Okay, how old's your son now? Wow, great age. I've got a six and a four year old and...

Michelle Holdsworth (42:07)
It's fantastic.

Carl (42:13)
Yeah, I thought two was hard. It gets harder.

Michelle Holdsworth (42:16)
Well I'm hoping he's going to be a prop forward too so fingers crossed.

Carl (42:20)
Yeah, my eldest, he plays for the team that I'm now coaching president at. He's a little bit worried. He's a back, so he dances around a lot. So that's a little bit of a worry. I hope so. But my four -year -old, he does boxing and he's just a lunatic and he's ginger. So he's a loose cannon. So I'm sure he'll be up front. He'll probably be the...

Michelle Holdsworth (42:32)
I'm sure he'll come into his own. I'm sure he'll come into his own.

Carl (42:50)
the flanker you've got to chase down because he's not heard the whistle just carried on or in the middle of a scrap. So, yeah, they're kind of stuck in the game now. It's a beautiful place to be with where we're in Spain and then being able to play on the beach as and when as well. So it's awesome. Do you get much coverage internationally for...

Michelle Holdsworth (42:52)
Yeah, more than likely.

Carl (43:16)
sort of the EDR, is there many other teams to play or is it the main fundamentals like your sort of tier one nations, South Africa and France and stuff like that or do you manage to, was there at the World Cup, was there teams like Spain and is there any of the ones that we wouldn't be aware of?

Michelle Holdsworth (43:36)
So, to play internationally, you have to have a loss of 40 decibels. So, certain teams struggle to get those players in because obviously they're not heard of. The deaf teams like Wales deaf, England deaf, Argentina deaf. So, they're slowly picking up numbers now because we're slowly getting out on social medias. So, this is why in Argentina we had to play sevens because most teams only had a few players.

Carl (43:40)
Yeah.

Yep.

Bye.

Michelle Holdsworth (44:06)
So luckily now against South Africa, we're going over there to play a full 15s and it'll be the first full 15s tour that we've ever done. So it's landmark.

Carl (44:16)
Wow.

amazing. I wonder how many of them have been eating Biltong since the age of five though so it could be it could be a take...

Michelle Holdsworth (44:25)
They're going to give us it and we're going to have to be prepared because they're going to be acclimatised and they're going to be ready for the game.

Carl (44:37)
Yeah, make sure you protect your other ear because I'm sure there'll probably be some stamping in some rucks as well over there. So we don't want you to lose the other one, do we, Christ?

Michelle Holdsworth (44:42)
Yeah.

No, that's very true.

Carl (44:49)
So is the boy coming with you? Are you going over on a mission yourself or is your little one coming with you as well?

Michelle Holdsworth (44:55)
I'm not, no, no, it's purely rugby. So if I had my son going over, I can't play my game and look after him. So I've got family members and we've got a good support network here where I can face time and see him. And like I said, this will be my last tour. Yeah, and then moving forward, probably one of my last seasons coming up.

Carl (44:59)
Yeah.

Nah, it's fair.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Fair enough. So obviously Oldham, you've moved on from Oldham. What's the sort of teams in your sort of periphery? Where do you want to go and play your last season? Where would you feel that this is going to be the place to play my swan song? Okay.

Michelle Holdsworth (45:34)
I want to play high level rugby. Yeah, I want to play high level. So it's probably going to be Halifax, Barnsley I've been asked to go to Skipton. They've got a really good establishment going. So there's a few teams in my area where I just need to suss out training and see whether it fits my schedule.

Carl (45:46)
Okay.

Alifax would be, if that was where it started and end, that's literally, that's the rugby film written and filmed straight there and you sort of finish it off.

Michelle Holdsworth (45:58)
It'll be a... Yeah.

No, they're fantastic Halifax and I've played, they've always nurtured me there. They've always built me up. They've always been the people. They made me the rugby player I am today, Halifax. So yeah, they have a part of my heart.

Carl (46:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's amazing.

No, that'd be awesome to sort of catch up with you on that and get a bit of a debrief after the tour as well. So obviously off the back of this, where can people reach out, start donating? What else can they do to help support the game? Social media contacts, obviously I'll tag these all in the bit afterwards, but what's the sort of social media tactic of the EDRU? Is there...

specific Twitter handles and stuff, do they try and get it out there as much as possible? Have you all got individual just giving pages or is there a group one or what's the crack?

Michelle Holdsworth (47:00)
We've got individual GoFundMe's. Mine's South Africa Tour, Michelle Oldsworth. Everyone's got their own individual GoFundMe. The EDRU is trying to raise £10 ,000 to help towards this tour cost because it's costing that much to go over there. They've got a page as well, which I'll send you over the details for. The EDRU is on...

Carl (47:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Michelle Holdsworth (47:29)
Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and basically if you can't donate it would be really lovely if you liked the page, followed the page, shared the page just to get the name out there really and show other deaf people if they're playing rugby to actually come and give it a go with us.

Carl (47:38)
Yep.

100%.

Yep. No, it'd be awesome. So that's the target. The main reason we've got Michelle on was obviously England captain on pretty early doors for me. I'm gonna claim it as an England captain there for the pods, really early doors, but let's make sure this tour's the final swan song that you obviously want and deserve. And we'll get everything shared out and try and promote that as.

as much as possible and make it as an easy to, you might even be able to upgrade. You might be able to get business class if people start putting a round in their pocket.

Michelle Holdsworth (48:22)
not that type of person. I'd rather have done it, the rest to a player that's not enough or put it into the charity. It'll all out. No, no, I'm not like that. I'll stick with a nitty -gritty at the back. I'm one of them. Yeah.

Carl (48:28)
That's it, sit at the front. Sit at the front as captain and wait. That's it. Yeah, it's what, about a nine hour flight, roughly? You all sort of flying from Heathrow or sort of Midlands? What's...

Michelle Holdsworth (48:45)
I think we'll be flying down from London across. When I last went out to South Africa, I think it were 11 hours.

Carl (48:51)
Yeah, yeah, it's a long old, it's a long old jaunt, but what a trip that'll be. So, awesome. Michelle, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for spreading the word. We'll do everything we can, socials, to promote it. If you send the bits across to me as well, I'll get them shared before this pod as well. So I'll be getting it out as soon as possible.

to spread the word, but an amazing story and just thank you so much for your time and let's make sure we get that landmark met for you and the rest of the team.

Michelle Holdsworth (49:30)
Yeah, no, thank you for your time as well, Carl. That's really, really appreciated.

Carl (49:34)
No, no, it's an amazing conversation and let's hopefully pencil something, Kim, when you come back with three wins against the South Africans, yeah.

Michelle Holdsworth (49:45)
Yeah, hopefully that's the one. Thank you, Carl. Thank you.

Carl (49:48)
Awesome. No worries. Thank you so much.

Carl (49:51)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and to express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues. So in today's episode, we found out how Michelle lost her hearing from a stamp in a ruck to now being captain for her country. We also discussed the need for fundraising to go on tour in South Africa this summer. Any support would be greatly appreciated.

On next week's podcast, we have Matt McLean on who is the highest point scorer in the National Leagues of rugby. We discuss his amazing journey through rugby in Wales to being a stalwart at Worthing and now at Petersfield as joint head coach with Liam Perkins, who we had on here a few weeks ago now. a huge thank you to you.

all for tuning in. Thank you and goodbye.