Ed Birch: The Nags Charity Barbarians & Rugby for Cancer Research | Rugby TTL

Ed Birch on the Nags Charity Barbarians — a grassroots club raising money for Cancer Research UK.

In this episode: the Nags Barbarians story; charity fixtures; grassroots fundraising; community rugby.

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Carl (00:12)
Hello and welcome to the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This podcast wants to shine a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I am Carl, I am an avid rugby fan and regularly injured player. Thanks for joining us on the next instalment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast.

We want to say a massive thank you to everyone that's been following our socials and supporting this journey so far. We'd love to get even more feedback from you on the topics discussed and also guests you'd like to see on the pod. Firstly, we want to run through some scores from the weekend and upcoming games around Europe. As mentioned in last week's pod, Bradford Salem managed to go on and complete the treble after beating Keighley 40 -19. Huge congratulations to Bradford for

an amazing season and a historic treble.

The division de honor playoff was in full swing with Burgos beating El Salvador and Valladolid beating Ciencias Sevilla to set up yet another final between Burgos and Valladolid on Sunday in Burgos. Division de honor B finished last weekend too with a nice local team for me down here in Calpe. Big shout out to La Villa.

who went up to Madrid to get the job done to win the Division de Honor B against Los Rozas. There is another big playoff game this weekend as well between Luxembourg and Moldova in the Rugby Europe conference. That's on on Sunday evening. So if you get chance, get on rugby Europe .tv. Have a watch there,

between Luxembourg and Moldova, who've both been standout performers in that conference. So be a good game to watch there. And now this week we have another great guest on. We've managed to catch up with Ed Birch from the Nags Charity Barbarians. Ed currently plays for Farnham in Surrey.

another club with a great development set up. We managed to finally get this interview recorded at roughly the fifth attempt due to a mixture of Ed's Mrs. watching Netflix while he was trying to use up all of their EE broadband. Then his laptop just didn't want to record anything. So we had to settle for the trusty old mobile phone. This interview is an amazing journey of a team formed by some amazing fundraising feats. They all started by

pulling a barge along a canal, which I think is probably got to be the craziest starting point for any club. And also the amazing works they do for the local communities that they descend upon and while raising money for Cancer Research UK.

Carl (02:47)
Well, we have Ed Birch on from the Nags Charity Barbarians. Obviously been nagging Ed for a little while on Instagram. There's also a funny story to the amount of attempts that we've tried this interview, which we can get to as it goes on. Ed, thank you so much for your time, mate. Thank you for coming on. Do you want to do a little intro of yourself?

and the Nags charity barbarians for everyone that doesn't know.

Ed Birch (03:16)
Yeah, sure. So I mean, for myself, I'm Ed Birch, current play at Farnham down in Surrey. Originally from Kidderminster in Worcestershire and just I've moved about and obviously as I've moved about, I've moved clubs as well. Started at Stourport up in Worcestershire, then moved to Kiddie. And then when I moved unit over into Norfolk, I had a load of friends that were in Ely in Cambridgeshire. So I moved there, was there for a season.

went away again and then came back and moved south down, Farnham had been here since 2018.

Carl (03:51)
you're in the in the RAF Ed or were you in the RAF or is it still a current current posted?

Ed Birch (03:55)
I don't know, it doesn't date to 2018, so a good 10 years and moved about a bit. Obviously, we've been a lot of time together. Well, not far off. And so playing from a trade and all that kind of thing. So yeah, and I really embraced Rugby all way through, but always been low level grassroots kind of.

Carl (03:59)
Okay.

Yeah, managed to get a few games that are rough as well. There or thereabouts.

Ed Birch (04:22)
kind of play us more towards maybe the social end rather than the performance kind of end. But hey, but yeah, with the nags, we are entirely grassroots level club who raised money for cancer research UK and we have done since 2012. And we combine playing biannual fixtures against a club with on the opposite year doing stupid

crazy challenges, or to just raise as much money as we possibly can. So yeah.

Carl (04:57)
So the Nags charity barbarians, for those that don't know, get onto the website and have a look through the stories of the charities that have been done. How did it come about and what was the first challenge for those that don't know? Because it was pretty epic.

Ed Birch (05:14)
Yeah, I mean, it was five rugby mates who wanted to raise a bit of money for cancer research. And they had a sixth who had a canal boat. And they thought it was a great idea to pull the canal boat from Birmingham to Worcester. So that's about 30 miles. And pull it purely under under human power. And the name Nags comes from when

you know, back in the Industrial Revolution when it was horses pulling the boats and that was nags. So that's where the origin of the name came from as well. And then because they were all rugby mates and that kind of, and they kind of thought, had the great idea of putting it all together and playing rugby to raise the money as well.

Carl (06:00)
No, it's brilliant. Obviously, I'm pretty sure there must have been a couple of trips to pubs on that route of pulling the canal boat. You can't be doing that effort without a little trip.

Ed Birch (06:05)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

they stopped off at one pub a bit too long and then kind of the last leg was absolutely emotional apparently.

Carl (06:20)
had to play catch up. Did they have to do the locks and everything? Did they have to do all that as well? Just, Christ. I think I've done one once and that's a lot of admin, let alone then getting back and pulling the canal boat into the bit and then, Christ, that is one hell of a challenge. So, Birmingham to Worcester, about roughly 30 miles, correct? Give or take, so.

Ed Birch (06:23)
shabam.

Yeah.

Carl (06:46)
They must have come across a serious amount of locks to go in and out of as well. That must have...

Ed Birch (06:51)
Yeah, it's very up and down, very, you know, I mean, not just going along one canal either. You've got to go across multiple kind of different branches. So there's it's.

Carl (07:01)
So obviously that, that you'd be, they were tugging that along one side of the canal, correct? So obviously we did everything have to be sort of cleared. Cause I know you go along some that they part the other side. It's I'm guessing it's the, it's the tow side, correct? Is that what they didn't have to try and crash into any boats and move boats as well and stuff, did they?

Ed Birch (07:14)
Yeah.

I hadn't really thought about them having to have cleared. Yeah, they must have had some sort of communication with people. But yeah, I mean, as a starter for a rugby club, I don't think you get much more unique.

Carl (07:29)
Yeah.

It's just mad. And then obviously, was that, so that was 2012, correct? So 2013, was 2013 the first year, the rugby year? Was that the first rugby tournament? 2014.

Ed Birch (07:40)
Yeah, 2012, yeah, and

Thank you.

I think it was about two full men's sides, 30 minute games. I just went out and played those games and raised more money.

Carl (08:05)
Yeah, and then that's basically done on a couple of year cycles every year now, correct? So you've done a little bit of a tour around the Midlands and Wales, correct?

Ed Birch (08:15)
So 2014 was Kidderminster, 2016 Lampeter in Wales, 2018 was Droitwich in Worcestershire, 2020 could have been Llandaffrey, but obviously 2020 got affected by Covid, that got delayed to 2022. And then we've literally just the weekend gone, so the 10th to the 12th of May, sorry to date it all, but we've been in Tewkesbury in Gloucestershire.

hopefully bring moving it somewhere, somewhere a bit further so we can evolve and grow our kind of our base because we pull players from so many different clubs. I mean, just this weekend was 33 different clubs players from. So.

Carl (08:58)
Wow. As I was saying to you the other day, I had run out of likes on Instagram. There's team sheets for team sheets. My thumb nearly fell off. It was pretty amazing to see.

Ed Birch (09:09)
Yeah.

It's part and parcel of charity rugby, isn't it? People commit and then they can't make it for some reason. We had one lad who I'll probably come onto a little bit later, who got notified on the Monday of game week to be told that he's been picked up for London and South East under 20s. So, you know, you get that kind of thing where you've got somebody that genuinely wants to be there, but London and South East under 20s is kind of a big thing. So...

Carl (09:32)
Wow.

Yeah, definitely. I saw that on the Army -Navy game the other day. There was one of the women's, she was in the first team, she was training that week and I think she got a call on the Thursday that she had to go on the ship. So they've had to literally replace her and the whole team, that was it, she was just gone. So she had everything prepared, got her head in the zone and then on the Thursday, no, you're on your ship, off you go. So...

Ed Birch (09:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Carl (10:10)
Rugby's rugby and when you get the call you want to do everything you can to get there but he can't always so fair play to him for getting the call up for the under 20s stuff so we'll come on to that a bit later on. I'm still flabbergasted by some of the charity events you've done in between the stuff so for ones that don't know can we have a bit of a debrief of them as well because they are phenomenal.

Ed Birch (10:38)
Yeah, so I mean, obviously we started with the great idea of pulling a narrowboat 30 miles and then to top that, a couple of years later, we went with canoeing from Bridgnorth in Shropshire down to Tewkesbury in Gloucestershire. So that's about 50 miles on the River Severn. So yeah, that sounded absolutely insane.

Carl (10:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Would that have gone through like Iron Bridge and stuff? Because I used to, I've done a bit up in Shropshire and stuff and it's a beautiful part of the world. Bridgnorth is just above Iron Bridge and you come down through that bit and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you come down, Iron Bridge is a beautiful, beautiful town and village to stay in. The whole lot, yeah, don't get me wrong, but yeah, that's no easy feat as well because that's quite a treacherous bit of...

Ed Birch (11:02)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's just below.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm river root is cause I mean.

Carl (11:27)
bit of water there as well, wasn't it? Was there any training or just a load of random lunatics got in kayaks and just set off?

Ed Birch (11:27)
Yeah. Face the sevens.

have to say it's part and parcel of what we are as the Nags complete bunch of lunatics we go at stuff. So yeah, I mean, yeah, 50 miles in, I mean, on any sort of transport would be tough, but on a canoe or kayak, and not having not trained it, everything just burning and it was baking hot from all the photos I've seen. So yeah, absolutely red as on the water.

Carl (11:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Amazing. So we'll see another epic one there. What was next?

Ed Birch (12:10)
Christ, next.

Carl (12:11)
was that Snowvrest after the after the kayaks?

Ed Birch (12:13)
Yeah, they don't seem to diminish at all. They seem to get. Yeah, so I mean, it was guys climbing Snowden as many times as they possibly could. Some guys did it in teams. So then they'd have to go up and down less because they were obviously climbing it to the height of Everest. I think you've got to go up and down about eight times. So if you're in a team, up and down once. But if you

Carl (12:33)
Yeah.

Why?

Yeah.

Ed Birch (12:40)
you've got to go up and down Snowdon eight times and it was over the course of a weekend really kind of smashing that kind of thing in then

Carl (12:45)
Yeah.

That's just crazy, isn't it? But it's worthwhile. It raises money for an amazing cause. And then...

Ed Birch (12:54)
During COVID, there were people doing individual things, climbing their stairs the length of Everest, because obviously, the idea was already there, but it's locked down.

Carl (13:01)
What?

Yeah. And nobody had anything else to do anyway, weren't allowed to do anything, so up and down the stairs.

Ed Birch (13:15)
There were hair shaves, there was other walking kind of thing. People were just doing what they physically could. And then, yeah, that brings us to 2023 last year, where we did walking around the Isle of Wight, doing the whole coastal route around the outside. And we had guys that did, I think it's something like 75 miles, and we had guys do it in two days. And then we did it in three, and then guys that did it, all guys and girls.

Carl (13:23)
Yeah.

Wow.

Ed Birch (13:44)
all that kind of thing that did what they physically could. They didn't really have to do the whole thing, they just did what they could. And I think that weekend we raised about 10 grand that weekend, so yeah.

Carl (13:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, so it's no easy feat as well because obviously anyone that knows the Isle of Wight, it's pretty hilly. There's some cliffs as you get further around the backside of it. It's a fairly bumpy walk, but the views are phenomenal, aren't they? So that probably made it a lot easier for people to get around.

Ed Birch (14:13)
The ups and downs you're having to compete with landslides as well at the moment so it might not be able to go the route you want to you then got to cut in cut back out and kind of stuff on the fly.

Carl (14:19)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Nah, it's amazing. the event's just been done. Have we got an idea of what the next crazy fundraiser is or is it still in the planning of the Lunatic Asylum? What's, Wes?

Ed Birch (14:38)
It's definitely in option B right now. I mean, there's been some ideas banded about like pulling a steam train the length of a marathon. I mean, that's been a long running kind of thing that we've been trying to organize, but logistically, it's quite difficult. So nailing that down, maybe that might come off. One idea that was brought that was kind of mooted over the weekend was pushing a scrum machine the length of a marathon.

Carl (14:40)
Right.

Yeah.

Yeah

Ed Birch (15:05)
Yeah, when you think how much it is to just move it 10 meters.

Carl (15:08)
Yeah, especially some lads that I've seen scrammage, they can't move it forward. They've just been going backwards to be... Most of them getting folded up going backwards all the time.

Ed Birch (15:14)
Yeah.

You've got to have a big ass field, relatively flat, and you've got to have plenty of bodies because people will burn.

Carl (15:27)
yeah, that'd be amazing to see.

Ed Birch (15:30)
But this is big and keep going and it might not be either of those things, it might be something else completely different. But this is kind of what we do and how we kind of get around things. And then in two years time, we will be playing rugby again. I mean, this time we did two vets games, two women's games and four men's games.

Carl (15:38)
That's brilliant.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (15:56)
and hopefully in two years time we can go bigger again and maybe three of the vets, three of the women's and maybe five men's games if we can get it that big and depending on where we go we might...

Carl (16:00)
Yeah.

That's a big event to get hold of that many pitches and trying to time that as well. So that'd be incredible to pull off one weekend as well.

Ed Birch (16:12)
It's all... Yeah, I mean, it's all... So it's... One rolls into the next. So we did... The Friday was the two vets games. And then the Saturday was the two women's games back to back. And then obviously the men's games after that. Just so it keeps it in one central focus of the club rather than, you know, my friend's over there and my friend's over there, which one do I go for? So it's...

Carl (16:23)
Yeah.

The hangover that must be incurred on the last men's game on the Sunday must have been crippling. They'd have been dreading that, surely. Absolutely gopping.

Ed Birch (16:48)
it was horrific. I mean, you've got people going, because obviously we advertise it as the 10th to the 12th, because that's the whole weekend. We've got names on the 12th and you're like, well, no, absolutely hanging. And it's, I mean, hey, you know, it's we know what grassroots we can do with the socials.

Carl (16:57)
Yeah.

Night.

Yeah.

the fundraisers are up to before the start of the weekends event. You said roughly the 210 ,000 pound mark. Is that roughly where you were at?

Ed Birch (17:22)
10 ,000 yeah so our aim for the weekend just gone was to get us up to the quarter million Hopefully we do that but obviously we only know that we've got 30 grand at the moment, but we're still expecting more to come in And then yeah, but then the whole game is to just keep going and keep going and keep going

Carl (17:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rugby Against Cancer was obviously another one that a big charity down Portsmouth way that you've probably aware fully aware of as well.

That would be a pretty epic set up if we could get the Nags charity against the rugby against cancer and well Twickenham's got much else to do, has it? So I'm sure just fill that. There's only a tiny stadium. Just get that filled up and see what we can do.

Ed Birch (17:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, he's finding a way to...

I know I can't speak for Rugby Against Cancer, but I know that our concept is trying to keep it to grassroots clubs because it's not just about money for cancer research, it's also giving back to grassroots clubs, giving back to the community. To take Tewkesbury, it's not the biggest clubs. Because obviously all grassroots clubs have gone through hard times with cancer.

Carl (18:31)
No, it's the local community as well and it's all of us.

Ed Birch (18:40)
COVID and then the cost of living and all that kind of stuff. So it's being able to give them that kind of bit of a boost as well.

Carl (18:46)
Even the likes of Farnham. Farnham has probably got a similar sort of setup to be able to host that sort of ensemble of random rugby players turning up.

Ed Birch (18:52)
Yeah, exactly. Yes, I mean...

We've got what four men's teams a vets team two women's teams and that section is just getting bigger year -on -year And then I think on a Sunday's over a thousand minis and juniors You

Carl (19:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's unreal. Because you've got Camberley up the road as well, who are now sort of pushing up through the leagues. But Farnham have always been there or thereabouts and held a big sort of player base and really set up a proper bit of the development.

Ed Birch (19:13)
But yeah.

Well, I think that this kind of area, you've got Guildford, as you say, Camberley, and then not too far down the road, we've got the likes of Basinstoke, Winchester, all these big populous areas that are all competing for the limited amount of rugby players that there are.

Carl (19:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, and to be able to put out four teams, two women's teams, two vets teams or whatever, and the youth system like that is massive, massive shout out to what Farnham have done there. Ed, the rugby journey, what is your rugby journey? I know we've discussed this separately, that it started a bit later than most. And I'd like to probably expand on that a bit further down the line, but.

Ed Birch (19:52)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Carl (20:14)
If you want to brief everyone on what your journey is, where you've been and what you've seen.

Ed Birch (20:22)
Yeah, sure. I started at 18. Growing up and all that kind of thing, I wasn't near rugby clubs and that kind of thing. I lived on a golf course. That was sport number one and got me through friends and school. You could do this, you could try that.

Carl (20:34)
Yep.

Mm -hmm.

Ed Birch (20:41)
So yeah, at 18, went to Stourport and started there. And then I was kind of there maybe quite intermittently because I joined the RAF. And then I think it was back in, I think it was 2013, I went away to the desert for six months, came back and went, well, every time I went back to Stourport, I knew less and less people, don't get me wrong, amazing club. And it bounced.

It's bouncing back from, you know, the COVID and all that kind of thing. It's really, really strong at the moment. But I moved across to my hometown of Kidderminster. Fresh start. And then I was there for maybe a couple of years. And then while playing sevens for the RAF police, snapped my right fib. Which, yeah, that was not... Yeah, maybe a little. I mean, I thought I'd sprained it and got the medics to get me up and walk me back round. And then, yeah.

Carl (21:27)
Bet that stung a bit, didn't it?

Ed Birch (21:34)
That was a bad idea. But yeah, and then about 18 months later, got, you know, got back to being able to play again. And that's when I joined Ely in Cambridgeshire and also with them, a good season. absolutely incredible little club. I follow every, every club that I've been on and, you know, try and every club that I've been with. But yeah, and then they're absolutely flying as well.

Carl (21:36)
Bye.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (21:57)
and then went out to the Falklands for six months, came back and joined Farnham in Surrey because my wife lives down this way and then I've never left really.

Carl (22:08)
So the Falklands then, have they got a team? Is there some sort of set up? I know it's sort of a forces base around there, but the locals not being dragged into it?

Ed Birch (22:09)
Yeah.

Unfortunately, it's that windy, it just wouldn't be possible.

Carl (22:24)
I've played on the Isle of Wight, mate. That's probably about the same. Playing down at Ventnor, when you fly half misses from five metres out from a kick because of the winds that bad at Ventnor, that's a pretty bad... We went over there once and we won 48 -7, I think. And all it was, we scored eight tries. We missed every conversion.

Ed Birch (22:29)
Yeah.

Yay.

Yeah.

Carl (22:52)
and two or three of them were literally under the posts and because of the wind but obviously they knew what they were doing so their trial they scored they managed to convert it. I think I even ended up trying to take one just to see what the hell was going on but it was yeah just mad place so

Ed Birch (23:11)
I mean, it doesn't stop. The wind just doesn't stop. I mean, it averages out about 20 miles an hour on a good day. On a bad day, it's 40 to 50 miles an hour winds. If it rains, it's raining sideways.

Carl (23:15)
Really.

No, so a lot of people that I know have been down there have sort of said you're either become a gym bunny or an alcoholic down on the Falklands and that, well, if you're going to get blown away you may as well be absolutely tombolaed so that you're probably straightening yourself out, lean against the wind.

Ed Birch (23:35)
Yeah. Yes, sir.

Yeah, that's a lot of people do and that's the thing you either get in the gym or you just get on it and...

It is pretty much a 50 -50 split. No. No. Yeah.

Carl (23:56)
Yeah, yeah, there's no middle ground. You can't be both. It's one or the other. So obviously you managed to play in the in the RAF police, you said, for sevens. Where did you manage to play that? Where was that?

Ed Birch (24:05)
Yeah.

So 7s, Christ, 7s was all over, but it was mainly 15s. But I mean, 15s got, I mean, most kind of the normal units and that kind of thing. But I played at Cardiff Arms Park in 2016. It made me realize big time that 3G is no fun. You know, I get the practicalities behind it, but for, for,

Carl (24:15)
Yep.

Yeah.

Nice.

No -

Ed Birch (24:41)
real kind of grassroots level rugby, it's no fun whatsoever in my opinion anyways. And then a little bit later in 2016 as well we went over to New York for a rugby tour, played sevens there in the New York sevens tournament and then played New York police department at 15s and their fire department at 10s I think it was. So yeah.

Carl (24:47)
No.

Very nice.

Okay.

So that was roughly what eight years ago. That's probably around the sort of the start of the rugby journey in the States. Could you see that development or was it at that point still very, very green?

Ed Birch (25:21)
I think in some respects it was kind of a mix because the Sevens obviously that's been a bigger thing in America for longer. You know, so many teams at that tournament and some of them were, you know, very, very handy. With the NYPD, I mean, we had to borrow a couple of props because, you know, the RAF, it's not exactly big guys.

Carl (25:37)
Yeah.

Ed Birch (25:51)
propping job. So yeah, we had to borrow a couple of props and then we just yeah, by running angles and running lines and that kind of thing. We just yeah, we did we did a number. And then 10s was a different game again. And it was, you know, and they've had some handy, handy guys. The fire department did and yeah, that was a bit closer. But yeah, we still, you know, did the job. So.

Carl (26:05)
Yep.

Ed Birch (26:17)
But yeah, as you say, it was the very kind of early days of rugby growing in America. So yeah, you can definitely see that there was. It's still the phrase grassroots, isn't it? It's that those little sparks of of life that it was it was you could see things were being tried and they were learning from having these experiences with other other nations. At the time, it was still very straight lines, basic kind of.

Carl (26:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Ed Birch (26:45)
bit stuff really.

Carl (26:46)
Nah, fair enough. Was that the only sort of a way tour that you had with the RAF? Did you manage to get anywhere else, anywhere sunny?

Ed Birch (26:55)
Well, not with rugby, no, unfortunately not. No, they're horrific things to try and organise as well, especially the girl for the Navy that got pulled at last minute. That kind of thing happened as well. You've got lads that signed up and gone, yeah, I've paid my money. And then, by the way, you're off to XYZ.

Carl (27:14)
Yeah, I'm coming. And then that's it.

Yeah, when I spoke to Polly in one of the earlier interviews, obviously he's Navy or ex -Navy and he was saying that lads would turn up and one minute you'd have enough for two teams and then the other one you'd be sort of just pulling randomers off the street because everyone else has just gone to get pissed rather than to actually play a game. I bet that's some amazing experiences to go and see that and see.

just to be able to see that firsthand as well, rugby coming into population within the America and probably seeing what they can do now.

Ed Birch (27:53)
Yeah, I mean, we didn't just as a rugby team just do rugby. We also did little kind of bits on the side as well. I mean, we did. We went to the New York Police Academy and that is insane. It is just so big and so much money. It's just put anything we've got in the UK to game. And then we also tied in with USA rugby and went out elementary school in the Bronx and run little kids there. So.

Carl (28:01)
Okay.

Really?

Yeah.

That was nice.

Yeah, wow. Yeah. Was there much sort of appetite for that? I know obviously going out there, it's kind of going, you go into a school or a college. Was there anyone that when they done that, do you think, well actually they might turn out to be, that if they sort of stuck at it, was there any?

Ed Birch (28:35)
they were all kind of eight, nine year olds. So I think it was quite a challenge kind of.

Carl (28:41)
No, but did any of them sort of become a natural? You know some of them, they're naturally gifted. They're an exceptional athlete, even at an eight or a nine. They just need nudging in the right direction.

Ed Birch (28:55)
Yeah, I reckon so. Yeah. And I think that's the big, the big thing with, with America and their kind of rugby setup is that they've got the athletes, they've got the skill sets, they just need to put it all together. And when they do, you know, it's the old cliche, isn't it? When, when America put it all together for rugby, then they'll be phenomenal.

Carl (29:04)
Hmm.

Yeah. Do you think that's not just an issue in America? Do you think that as a world and as a society, we don't develop athletes, we develop players for different sports, whereas if there was maybe a central hub of athletes that would then be specialised in a thing after they've got their core basic athlete level and say, well, this one's...

Ed Birch (29:36)
Thank you.

Carl (29:45)
this player can jump 30 foot or whatever and this one's exceptional off the line. This one's got just brute strength. And then they were pushed into, or guided, should I say, not pushed, but guided into the right direction of which sport would suit them best. Do you think that's something that as a sporting society we fail at?

Ed Birch (29:52)
Yeah.

I think there is an element of that but I think because of the human nature and free will you'd be absolutely amazing at something and not want to do it. I played back row but I've had so many people over the last few years go, yeah you'd be great at front row, you've got the build for it, you've got the strength for it and I'm like I've got no interest.

Carl (30:15)
Yeah.

That's because nobody else wants to do it, Ed. That's how I ended up in the front row. Nobody else wanted to do it. And that was because I could get around the bit still, but add a bit of a size to me. I ended up front. Anyone in your team, never trust any of them because all they're trying to do is make you a prop. They're all at it.

Ed Birch (30:45)
Yeah, I even gave it a shot at the start of the season just gone and I was not a fan. Really not. It's a special kind of per -

Carl (30:52)
I do love it. I do love it. I do really, really enjoy it. When you make your oppo squeal like a piggy, it's probably one of the best feelings as a grown man. But when you have it done to you and your wind's escaping you, it's not a pleasant experience. But yeah, as you said, you've got to be a certain breed of human to be willing to jump in that front row.

Ed Birch (31:06)
I mean that was -

it.

It's a fair play to people that do it, especially people that seem to have done it for 20, 30 years, still enjoy it.

Carl (31:25)
Yeah, I've played against, yeah, against lads at Trojans and stuff like that. I think they've still got a prop. There's one over here that plays for Denia He's in his 50s. He's literally, he's got, I'm pretty sure he's got a peg leg as well. He literally just trundles, he does nothing else. He just turns up to the scrum, does that, and he gets around a bit. He's got a bit of a hand, but you ain't seen him running. If you do, he's just, it's just like, it's...

but he still loves it. He just cracks on. I think he's a geezer over from Argentina or something like that. And he's just solid as a rock, does his job and just loves it.

Ed Birch (32:06)
Well that's the thing, we had a guy at Farnham called, well we call him Sid, but yeah. And yeah, as you say, big farmer strength, solid rock, doesn't really move away from the centre of the pitch, you know, maybe 10, it doesn't need to because he only needs to...

Carl (32:22)
No, he doesn't need to. He's got his five meter channel under the post and that's about it. That's straight back and forth unless he's got to go off for a scrum.

Ed Birch (32:33)
Yeah. And I mean, the only reason he jacked it in was because of the law changes that start to see tackle height and all that kind of thing. Cause you know, the old, I suppose the older you get, the less flexible you get. I mean, I'm only 35, but even I'm finding I'm probably a bit less flexible than I was five years ago. And you know, getting that bit lower for some people is more of a challenge. And I think it has seen, it has seen a few people kind of walk away from the sport, but then.

Carl (32:51)
Yeah.

Ed Birch (33:02)
From experience of the season, I've seen that it hasn't been that difficult a transition for people.

Carl (33:09)
No, I think the referee, a lot of it's down to the refereeing as well. I think if the ref's to the point and it's managed on both sides fairly, I think that probably works best. It's when, you've also got to adapt to the players you see, as you said, your SIDS that aren't as mobile, but they'll still make the tackle, but because they haven't quite dropped far enough.

Ed Birch (33:37)
Hmm.

Carl (33:37)
doesn't need to be yellow. Sometimes worst case is a penalty and just allow the game to play. If there's no real risk to anyone apart from Sid's back, then sometimes you just, but unfortunately I agree. A lot of lads have moved away from the game because of the rule changes and it's constant and I 100 % understand it and 100 % support they're trying to protect player welfare. However,

would it be better to... It's not really done when you come and start playing for rugby. When you started playing at 18, Ed, I finally got into the game when I was about 19, 20. I did a bit of school and stuff like that, but I finally got into it about 19, 20 as well. But I just learned on the fly a lot of it. I kind of understood the technique and I watched a lot of stuff.

There's no assessment for somebody that comes and starts playing rugby.

Ed Birch (34:39)
No, exactly. There's no kind of well done, you've passed a certain level you can now play.

Carl (34:46)
Exactly. Imagine the amount of lads that would be walking around with their one tackle badge. Like, you remember those 50 meter swimming badges you used to get with Tony the top? Imagine that if you could get your first tackle badge and stuff like that on your kit. But there's no assessment, is there? There's nobody, because if you go and play football, you have a trial. Rugby, we've just got to grab whoever's available. And that also probably...

Ed Birch (35:12)
Yeah.

Carl (35:14)
affects the ability of the players around and I played it to a half decent level and you could tell when you're playing at that level the people you play with understand the game so you get less injuries. When I was playing threes and I was getting injured every week or taking a knock that done this I actually fractured my knee socket playing threes because somebody tackled me over the try line and

Ed Birch (35:35)
Wow.

Carl (35:42)
into my standing leg and pop my knee, the socket out of my, like the ball out of the socket. Like I'll 100 % chase the ball down, but it was 100 -0. We were winning 100 -0 at the time. And like those things wouldn't happen in the upper levels.

Ed Birch (35:46)
EEEE E

It's almost like there should be bands of maybe the level. So proper grassroots level, your third, fourth team rugby, one level. Then you've got the next level, which would say be, I don't know, Gosport and Fareham ones, Farnham ones, port and event. Then you start going into like nationals and then it goes again. Maybe that's a thing, but.

Carl (36:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It happens with the leagues that are available, but again, the rugby clubs are so desperate just to have to field a team that they have to see who's available. And it's not like you can bring a player across, you know whether a player is good or not, but there's no banding, there's no ability, there's no, they turn up, yeah, I've played for this team or played for that team. Most of the coaches probably do a bit,

because of men's rugby, because it's so... I've got to get down there on half seven, I'm due half seven till nine o 'clock on a Tuesday and a Thursday. We've got 30 lads, we're doing a run through, the first team's the important team, second team is the adult, third team, if you're there, just run round and just be cannon fodder. There's no internal development within rugby clubs to try and improve players, which I think is also a detriment to player safety and player welfare because...

If you can't teach them how to tackle properly, they're either going to hurt themselves or they're going to hurt somebody else. A lot of these lads are there, got a job, obviously, most of them potentially self -employed. So if you're self -employed and you take a really dodgy knock from somebody that doesn't know the game but wants to be involved, and brilliant, more than welcome, but you break your leg or you break your foot or you can't work for six weeks, they ain't going to pay you bills just because they fucked up.

Ed Birch (37:32)
Yeah.

Carl (37:49)
I think there's something that we probably neglect as a game as well. I don't think...

Ed Birch (37:53)
Yeah, I mean, I suppose in some respects it's because football, for example, is very, very simple. You know, kick ball in goal, job done. Yeah. Whereas complex and for somebody, I mean, I don't know about yourself, but for myself when I was 18, picking it up, I always felt like I needed that kind of education beforehand.

Carl (37:59)
Mm.

Yeah, run there. That, yeah. Can you turn? Mm.

Yeah, I agree. I managed to go into a really good team at Gosport and I managed to get games in the threes and went to training and just tried to sort of involve myself as much as possible, watch the games and understand the game. And ask questions was critical as well. You ask the right players and you'll... But that was off my own back, not through people being like...

we're going to do a session, you lads, fairly new, or you've only been here a year, we're going to just run through the basics, this is what we expect. If you didn't learn on the hop while you're doing it, as you said, you're not sort of swept up. And it took me a lot longer to probably get to where I could have been earlier on in my game. And it's just rugby. I think a lot of stuff goes by the wayside. We don't...

Ed Birch (39:08)
Mm. Yeah.

Carl (39:16)
don't review a game till it's fucking dead. Lads will sit there and go through minutes and minutes of hours of footage or just chatting shit about what people did wrong. But trying to actually put it into practice and change that, it's just not there to, at the grassroots level, obviously, above that, yeah, 100%, and that's what they get paid to do. But grassroots, it's not.

But I think that's also down to players don't turn up for training because it is a hobby.

Ed Birch (39:52)
people's bodies time to recover. Unless you've got the time to do that proper recovery, then it makes it harder and harder and harder. And obviously when people weren't quite as big, it was probably the collisions weren't as big. But I mean, speaking for myself and probably quite a few lads from the nags of the weekend, your body takes that

Carl (39:56)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (40:22)
amount of time to recover. I mean, depending on, you know, was the ground hard? Well, if it was rock hard like concrete, then it's a bit longer to recover than if it was, you know, you were running around in a in a in a quagmire. So it's all these different fast, you know, facets of the game that is rugby, that it's quite hard to kind of make perfect. And

Carl (40:30)
Yep.

Yeah.

Mm.

Ed Birch (40:48)
Maybe if we're striving for perfection, we need to kind of just tone it down a little bit and strive for getting it as good as it can be.

Carl (40:55)
Yeah, I don't think there's many things that will ever reach perfection. It's just rather than changing the rules constantly to realise that they're... Because the game's going to disappear. If they keep changing the rules every week and this is being dropped out, you're going to lose players, you're going to lose viewers, you're going to lose those bit... Because rugby is a very, very brutal sport. And that shouldn't change, but make sure we teach players how to...

Ed Birch (41:19)
massively so.

Carl (41:25)
make those tackles correctly. Make sure our player welfare is bred from that rather than saying we're going to stop doing that. We're going to stop doing that. Like the scrum penalties. If you shit at scrumaging, make sure they train it. Stop just saying, I can't. So if you get a scrum penalty now and a free kick off it, you can't then call another scrum afterwards.

Ed Birch (41:46)
Yeah, and half the problem is that it's not being looked at from a grassroots level. It's being looked at at the national level and not everybody plays international rugby. Some people only play social rugby. Some people only play, you know, we've got lads in the nags that play only for the nags now. They're not part of a club, so they only play once every two years. And if you start to affect...

Carl (41:59)
No.

Ed Birch (42:14)
the game because you're looking at the top then you maybe lose what is the foundation of the game.

Carl (42:20)
Well, people become disenfranchised with it as well, don't they? So it's like the 50 -22. It's an exceptional rule at the elite level because there's lads that can make that kick. There's lads probably when you get down to maybe level seven that can probably still make that. Three's rugby and below, you're lucky if somebody can kick it forward sometimes. And it's true. And then...

Ed Birch (42:34)
Mm.

but it gets re -

Bye.

Carl (42:45)
Then you've got the goal line dropout as well. If the lads have worked so hard to get to that and held up, you should be rewarded with a five meter scrum. Most of them would fuck it up though, but it was still, you got a bit, now you've got a goal line dropout, you've got props trying to trudge back to then cut it's at that level. I think a lot of people have become disillusioned with that and coming away from it.

Ed Birch (43:05)
Mmm.

I mean, you know, we can attest to at the weekend with the Nagzars that we were, you know, we were deep in D and we were doing good. Somehow turned it over, passed it out and I think it was our second row, maybe a prop, thought, thought it'll hoof it. You know, okay, it's champagne rugby, there's nothing on it.

Carl (43:21)
Yeah.

Definitely a prop, definitely a prop if he saw the Hollywood lights. That was it, he was off.

Ed Birch (43:39)
And it goes straight up in the air and then comes down about a metre back and the opposition catch it and sink it down for a try and you're like, ugh. But at the social level, certain rules aren't going to make as much. And it's like, I mean, personally, I'd do away with something like the mark because it stops all momentum.

Carl (43:46)
haha!

Hmm.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (44:05)
You know, it's that kind of thing where it just needs to be simplified maybe. Because you... ...facets of the game. Somebody new to the game or somebody who's a casual fan or somebody who watches the International has then got a clue about the professional club game, let alone, you know, Farnham third team, then they're...

Carl (44:11)
It's like the caterpillar as well, that's just boring.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (44:32)
not necessarily going to gain that interest.

Carl (44:36)
No, we don't make it exciting enough as well. There's too many breaks in play and I think that's probably where they've tried to go with the scrum penalty free -kick call, which I understand, but I think it's too black and white with the rule. Rather than saying every free -kick can't be called, adapt it.

Ed Birch (44:47)
That's the thing.

We can see what they're trying to do. It's just, are things going the right way to achieve what they want to achieve? I mean, I can speak again from, with the nags at the weekend, a lot of running rugby and in 20 feet was, yeah, bit much.

Carl (45:02)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (45:15)
which none of us are elite athletes, you know, we're all mixed, you know, some lads playing at maybe level six, some playing whatever number.

Carl (45:23)
Yeah.

Yeah. How many of the water bottles were filled with beer instead? Or is that not, that's an official secret that can't be leaked.

Ed Birch (45:33)
There was at least one and it was Russian roulette. I've had that as well. Somebody with the hot one of cider or a bit and it's just... Nice cold hit and then you're so hot.

Carl (45:36)
Ehh, hahahaha!

Yeah. there.

Yeah. And you're not, if it's cider as well, you're not sure if somebody's pissed in it. So it makes it even worse, doesn't it? So.

Ed Birch (45:58)
and it's vessel it's it and that's the thing these are the some of the elements that also make up grassroot rugby

Carl (46:05)
that's brilliant. They're the bits you laugh about and when you get back in a bar afterwards, that's the best bit. So on your rugby journey, Ed, who have you played with that's gone on to make it? I know obviously, as you said, you've sort of been around the twos and threes for Farnham. So a few levels up will probably sort of target. So who have you?

Ed Birch (46:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Carl (46:32)
played with that's gone on to make it. And obviously as you called on the lad that's been called up to under 20s, we'll give him a little shout out because it sounds like he's on his journey as well.

Ed Birch (46:41)
Yeah, I mean, for me, it'd be quite hard to say about somebody that's made it because most of the people that I've played with have stayed at the grassroots level. In fact, I can't think of off the top of my head somebody that I know now that's definitely gone up and. Yeah, so I mean, he.

Carl (46:49)
Mm -hmm.

I think there was a lad we spoke about the other day, was it Don Williams or something from Esher?

Ed Birch (47:02)
He's an absolute talent for days. He could do an amazing center. He would put some pros to shame, I reckon, at the time. But I think he plays for Esher now. This is the thing I haven't kept. But I know Esher are a national level, so that's more than making it in my opinion.

Carl (47:10)
Yep.

Yeah, yeah, get with it, yeah.

Yeah, that's a great standard, especially from, as you said, sort of playing in around the sort of level seven, level eight, probably region potentially. That's a decent stand. So who's the lad that's been called up to the under 20s then? Who's this lad?

Ed Birch (47:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's Callum Jones, so you know, he's a bit diverse now. But yeah, absolutely incredible talent. I think from what I've seen, he's gone from, you know, he's been Farnham through and through from the age of, I think it was five that we started out. I mean, even Farnham's now extended into what we call the super minis. So that's like under fours, under whatever. They can walk, they can hold a ball.

Carl (47:44)
Callum Jones.

Wow.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (48:09)
He's gone from there all the way up through the club, through the academy and he's now first team regular. He'd absolutely fly and just so gifted, so talented that in my eyes and I think a lot of people at the club's eyes will absolutely fly.

Carl (48:27)
So under 20s, has he been picked up by an academy or is that sort of part of a trial? Has he sort of slipped by the net potentially or?

Ed Birch (48:36)
Yeah, I think it's the trials kind of, you know, just making sure that the talent in the pool.

Carl (48:42)
Right, because Farnham have they got many links with like, Quins and stuff like that or? Yeah.

Ed Birch (48:47)
Yeah, we're affiliated with Quins I mean, we've got, when I first started, we had Ross Chisholm, the fullback. He moved on and then we've also got Ali and James Chisholm, so his brothers. So Ali's our head coach and then James Chisholm, obviously current Quins player as well. He signed with Quins actually. He's our forward coach.

Carl (48:54)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Ed Birch (49:15)
So yeah, massive affiliation there. Coaches is an analyst on the side for Quins. Yeah, I mean, we've also had, I think he's a center, Oscar Beard, who got picked up for the Six Nations squad. He's also a Quins player. He came up through, you know, Farnham and the Academy and, you know, Farnham's really producing a lot of amazing talent.

Carl (49:30)
Wow.

No problem.

Well, obviously if you've got a conveyor belt basically from two or three years old, you should be able to churn a few out. So no, and obviously having that linked to Quins will help massively in the local area. So the next question, who have you had the opportunity to play with that you believe should have gone on to make it, but didn't? And what's the story behind it if there is a story?

Ed Birch (50:10)
I hate to disappoint, but I haven't got one. No, really I've no, because I mean, it's, you know, obviously between us trying to record this a couple of days back and now I've really through all my flipping teams and all of that. And I've just gone, well, most.

Carl (50:12)
Nah. Nah.

Yeah.

They were there for a reason. They were there because they knew that's their level, so that's fair.

Ed Birch (50:30)
Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, there are some players that you go, you probably should be playing maybe a bit better, but the application maybe isn't there and the appetite to go up and you just want to play a certain level because you enjoy it, then, you know, it's playing playing to you to where you want to be.

Carl (50:36)
Better. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. So as you mentioned there, we've had a few attempts at this interview now, haven't we? So we're trying to navigate around the bits that we've already discussed, but re -go over them. So we've probably refined this pretty well now. the NAGS charity, Ed, the plan is another mental attempt of some sort of charity fundraising next year. And then...

Ed Birch (51:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Carl (51:18)
two years time now would be another tournament, another tournament. Do you think that's gonna sort of drift down south? Is that gonna be, or is that gonna be the Wales, or are you gonna have two? Are you gonna have two set up separately, or?

Ed Birch (51:22)
Another rugby w -

That's what I'm saying.

No, I think we'll just keep it as the one big setup because, you know, pulling people in from mid and West Wales, pulling people in from different areas, it's good to keep it as one family, one group. We really are just a family kind of club. We've got people that are starting because their dad, they can play along the side of their dad or their mum. We've got father, son.

Carl (51:42)
Yep.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Ed Birch (52:02)
groups, we've got mother -daughter groups coming through. So it's really that kind of ethos. So to keep everybody together. But yeah, I'd love to see it come to come south to grow down south. I mean, one, it'd make my commute for that game a little bit a little bit easier. But it's it's it's not just about kind of growing the club. It's about bringing people together for the cause and

Carl (52:05)
Yeah, that's brilliant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ed Birch (52:30)
give back to, because it's not just rugby in the Wales and the Westmids and all that kind of thing that are struggling, it's rugby all over the grass. And it's putting into those clubs and being able to help grow those clubs.

Carl (52:43)
Did Tewkesbury's bar get drunk dry at least? Was it empty when everyone left? Was that the bare minimum that got done, yeah?

Ed Birch (52:53)
Yeah, I mean, it seems to be our modus operandi. It is our thing. We turn up.

Carl (53:00)
You can't go somewhere and not drink a bar dry with that many rugby players and a whole weekend as well. They must have had deliveries all weekend. Did they pre -plan it?

Ed Birch (53:09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Saturday morning there was a pre -planned one coming in, but yeah, it was... Yeah, I mean, as I say, it's not just rugby players, it's rugby players' families, rugby players' friends, people from the local area that maybe have never gone down the rugby club before. I've enticed them to come and see what's on offer and get involved.

Carl (53:26)
Yeah.

So alongside the rugby and stuff, did you have other bits for the kids that had come along as part of families? Was there like trampolines and sort of bouncy castles and all that sort of stuff on? So it's a nice big sort of festival feel where if everyone gets together, gets to watch a bit of rugby and raise money for an amazing charity as well. So.

Ed Birch (53:39)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

At least if the kids want to go and do something, that there was something on the side for them to do and it's an environment that rugby clubs are, where they can just be and enjoy it and hopefully maybe that kind of produces the nags of the future as well.

Carl (54:01)
Yeah.

100%, yes. We said that, I said this in an earlier pod. It usually is, if you... Obviously, we've not kind of come from it because our families weren't part of it, but normally if your family's part of it, you... And it's something that obviously the club that I'm now part of out here in Spain, I'm trying to do. There's no seniors. So there's no seniors game at this club, so...

Ed Birch (54:19)
Mm.

Yeah, it's handed down from generation to generation.

Carl (54:42)
at the minute we do up to S16s, which is under 16s, we've got an age group from under 6s, under 8s. They do it in two year groups. So you don't recycle the age group every year, it's every two years. But there's no seniors team added to it. So recently becoming president, that's my target is to add a seniors team to it. Because I think that's where we start really developing the...

Ed Birch (54:50)
Okay.

Yeah.

Carl (55:10)
the availability of you for the futures and stuff. So it's.

Ed Birch (55:13)
Because they see somebody doing something, they can follow that example. And that's why we're always encouraging people to bring their families to the NAGs, because then it's garnering that kind of ethos at an early stage.

Carl (55:20)
Yes.

Agreed.

I think our fifth attempt of this interview, mate, I think we've pretty much nailed it. It's been an absolute pleasure to finally get you on, being able to talk to you five separate occasions, pretty much. So I think Ed's pretty much trying to get himself a co -host spot on here at this rate.

Ed Birch (55:50)
I mean, just for Tewksbury, I've already got myself on a podcast, on a radio show. You know, I've just got to keep the momentum going now.

Carl (55:58)
Yeah.

That's it, Hollywood film next for Ed. We'll see you in some sort of new remake of the Bambi film or something, maybe, you never know. Absolute pleasure to have you on. Great cause. We'll obviously share everything on the socials to raise as much money as possible to tag that on. One last thing from you, Ed, if you want to do a final pledge to everyone, a call out.

Ed Birch (56:04)
I'm out.

Carl (56:27)
what it is, where it is, and where people can expect to find out the information for the next crazy idea that you guys have got and hopefully get involved and support it as well.

Ed Birch (56:38)
Yeah, sure. So I mean, we're on nagsrubgy .co .uk, we're on Facebook, we're on Instagram. All the information is pumped out from there. I mean, my message really for everybody is look us up, get involved, and you'll be welcome with open arms.

Carl (56:55)
Thank you, Ed. Thank you so much. Everyone get involved. Great cause, great group of people. And Ed, thank you for your time coming on here, mate.

Ed Birch (57:03)
Thank you very much.

Carl (57:06)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you've made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and to express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues. So in today's episode, we found out how a great charity fundraiser was founded by six lads deciding to pull a barge the length of a marathon and the amazing ideas they have lined up for the future. Next week, we have gone big time. We have managed to get...

and England captain on. We speak to Michelle Holdsworth from the EDRU and the fundraising needed for their tour in South Africa in August. Really looking forward to sharing that interview with you all next week. Once again, a huge thank you to you all for tuning in. Thank you and goodbye.