Episode 3 - English & Rugby Europe Review

The conversation provides a compelling case for the future of English rugby, highlighting the potential for teams to develop, the accessibility and financial backing of the sport, and the investment in rugby, Six Nations and Women's rugby. It also addresses the challenges of player development, the reliance on foreign players in some countries, and the urgent need for changes to ensure the development of local talent. The conversation urges us to take bold steps forward and create our own brands, just like Joe Marler and James Haskell, and to strive for success in Rugby. It's time to invest in rugby and support its growth, recognizing its unique value and potential for greatness. The conversation discusses the movers and shakers in the Rugby Europe Championship too. 

Transcript

Carl (00:14)
Hello and welcome to the Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This podcast wants to shine a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl, I'm an avid rugby fan and regularly injured player. Thanks for joining us on the next instalment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to say a massive thank you to everyone that has been following our socials and supporting this journey so far. We would love to get more feedback from you on the topics and also guests you'd like to see

on the pod.

Carl (00:45)
And as mentioned in last week's podcast, this week we're going to discuss the current structure of English rugby, especially with most of the leagues now come to an end. It's great to have a look over who's been promoted, relegated, where a lot of clubs are going to be able to travel to next season. And obviously some of the point scores and the gaps created in those leagues and also somehow some of the leagues have been run really, really close. So...

there's either a big shout out to the clubs that have come second or have they pushed themselves too far this season and then left not enough in the tank for next year. So that'd be a great way to gauge next season and understand how those clubs will be able to push forward as well. So current structure in rugby obviously starts with the Premiership Rugby. We've got 10 clubs left in there. That has now been ring fenced for the foreseeable due to bits that I discussed with Polly last week in the...

in the podcast due to stadium sizes and infrastructure, et cetera, which for the likes of Ealing and Doncaster and a multitude of other clubs, it's probably a little bit unfair, especially with other clubs going bust. There's gotta be a way of making sure that we can protect the greater rugby community, not just the selected 10 by the seems of it. So the RFU Championship is obviously the next one.

but did have 12 clubs in at the start. Obviously one club succumbed to financial disparity as well, which was Jersey, which leaves the championship with 11 clubs. That is now gonna be topped up by one club getting promoted out of the National League, no relegation. So big shout out to Chinnor to get promoted out of National League One. Big feat as well, big, big.

big, big celebrations down there I've seen all over social media Apparently, run pretty close at times throughout the season by second place Rams, but fair play there. Chinnor managed to get it done, get the job over the line, so massive, massive respect there. And that obviously opens the door to them being able to tour around the RFU Championship now, which has got some great...

great teams on board as well. Ealing Trail Finders are obviously still top. Championship is still playing as well, but obviously now because there's no relegation or promotion, it's just kind of who's going to be able to put their stamp on the league. Ealing are obviously at the top. Coventry, Cornish Pirates, Bedford Blues, Doncaster Knights, Amptil, Hartbury, Nottingham, London, Scottish, Caldy and Cambridge are obviously battling it out now at the bottom of the...

the table now. So obviously without the risk of relegation, does that now give them the chance to really put a stamp on next season? Does Cambridge get the chance to go and sign some players now that they've cemented that place next season and say, well, actually we've got this, we can really go and make a proper effort and pick up some players that have shot for the stars and not quite made it into other teams potentially. So...

It'd be great to see how Cambridge capitalise upon that ring fence. And then next season, obviously, I think there is a return to the relegation. So a lot of clubs have got to probably put their hand up and say, we've got to really strengthen here and try and find that way to stand out from the rest of the crowd. Obviously, Chinnor going up. Are they going to be able to keep the same squad?

Obviously if anyone from Chinnor wants to come on and talk about their progression and what their forecast for next season is as well, we'd love to have you on and discuss that and shine the light and show the ambition of the club and fair play to what you've done in that one for this season and hopefully you can go and really push on in the championship as well. So at National League One, there is two to be relegated this season.

which were Taunton Titans and Cinderford, which looking at their current location means they'll probably fall back into National League Two West, but not sure how that will quite fit because that will then overload that division. National League Two West was won by Dings Crusaders. That is a proper name there. Oh yeah, I've got a lot of time for club names like that.

And fair play for whoever come up with that, to be brutally honest with you. They're gonna be accompanied by Esher, out of National League Two East as well. So Esher, sort of south London, possibly got links to the likes of Harlequins in the surrounding areas as well, top of the A3. It's a lovely part of the world. But.

done exceptional job there by the looks of it as well. We now get onto the National North. Yeah, National League Two North. Now this is what seems to have been the league that everyone, everyone's turned up to. Rotherham Titans finished the league with a win on 123 points and Leeds Tykes.

run and close in second with 121 points. Third place, Sheffield on 92. There's some great teams up there by the looks of it and looks one hell of a hell of division to have been battling out of Rotherham finished with nearly unbeaten season as well. So 25 wins with only one defeat, whereas Leeds Tykes put 24 wins and two defeats.

but Leeds Tykes managed to put 1 ,101 points on the board. Sorry, 1 ,111 points on the board, which is an absolutely staggering point to be running on. So that looks like that could have been one hell of a league to be in and around and watching and sort of taking part as well, because that is...

That is some massive, massive numbers being put on the board there by some big teams. Out of the then relevant National League Two North teams, they are able to then be replaced at the bottom two, which were Hull Ionians and Huddersfield. So they both managed to be replaced now by Harrogate and Macclesfield.

So a little bit of a further trip there for Macclesfield by the looks of it. There's a lot of the teams are up towards the Sheffield, Yorkshire side of it. Macclesfield over towards the Manchester way. So could be a little runaway, but I'm sure they'll make use of that rugby bus pretty well and hopefully pick up a few wins and drink their way back to Macclesfield celebrating a couple throughout next season. So.

The National League 2 East, obviously won by Esher Barnes coming second pretty close on 106, while Esher finished on 113. Esher managed to only put up 1108, so not quite as many as Leeds Tykes points for this season, but still one hell of an attempt. Dorking running Barnes pretty close as well to finish third on 104 points.

So that's a great league to have been in by the looks of it. Down the bottom, the bottom two, North Walsham finished bottom and then followed with Wimbledon. So they're gonna be replaced now by Colchester and Havant. Worthing another team that hopefully we're gonna be discussing a little bit closer in a couple of episodes time. We've got a potential special guest lined up to.

to discuss his time at Worthing and also now where he's plowing his trade. So it would be great to get an insight there and see what his awareness of Worthing was this season and where they plan on pushing onto. So that'd be great. And obviously a nice, fairly local Derby for Worthing to Havant especially in this current regional league, that's probably as close as you're gonna get as a Derby.

Worthing to Havant now. So that could be a good run. They've got Guernsey in there as well. So that's always a good trip away for anyone. If anyone's ever done Jersey or Guernsey, they'll know it's a decent run ashore and a good crack for rugby teams. Probably not the flight companies or any sort of public transport that's there for that weekend that everyone turns up, unfortunately, but such is rugby.

To now understand the National League 2 West, which obviously dings Crusaders won on 111 points, so massive congratulations. Again, they only managed to put 1 ,007 points on, so the top five, six teams spread across the top three National League 2 leagues have managed to put some points on the board.

And Dings Crusaders, to be fair to him, only concede 382 points as well. So that's one hell of a feat to run that through last season. They've got the likes of Exeter University, Clifton, Redruth Loughborough students in there as well. So they've got a decent league there and they've done really well to crawl out of that one and hopefully hit the ground running

The two teams that are gonna drop out are Newport and Dudley Kings Winford. They are gonna be replaced by Devonport Services out of the regional one, Southwest. Obviously, most of that's potentially propped up by Available Rugby Talent as well, which is discussed in the next podcast as well. We've got another special guest that's...

been in and around the Navy scene as well, and part of the purple cobras. So we discuss a few things next week. And obviously the naval scene is quite apparent. And he mentioned about the Devonport services and Plymouth Albion being able to lean on that resource pool. So that seems to have done Devonport pretty well to manage to get himself up into National League Two West.

And as Polly mentioned last week as well, Oxford Harlequins are going to be sharing that league with them after getting promoted out of regional one, the Midlands league. So great, great group of teams there and some potentially create away days. However, the big glaring thing for myself and potentially other fans within rugby, probably not.

the likes of Cambridge or Caldy whoever, succumbs out of the championship at the detriment of other teams not being able to get promoted. Does strangling the championship now with no relegation?

hamper or improve the league. I think it's a massive opportunity for the likes of Cambridge or Caldy, however the league decides to finish, to hopefully cement their spot and use this season like a lot of clubs did during the premiership as a development season. Not how it should be seen because obviously it's a competitive competition. However, there is a lot of teams that should be using those.

those leagues and those opportunities to develop. And I think probably the one standout team from that ring fencing of the Premier League was probably Harlequins. They managed to develop their Joue rugby and managed to win the title as well, which is great to see. However, we can't keep putting that sticky plaster over.

leagues left right and centre there's clearly something fundamentally wrong with the way that rugby is being sold to the masses. Is it?

Is it because it's not as accessible? You can get all over YouTube and Twitter and you see a lot of the clubs having to promote themselves not being promoted from a lot of it. I know that next season TNT are gonna put out every Premiership game made available, but is that gonna be at the detriment of other games being having to play at the same time and...

Focus being turned away from other leagues, yes, probably. But as we discussed last week with Polly, a lot of clubs were probably going to benefit from people being able to watch them on a Tuesday night, Wednesday night. I prefer to chuck that on than anything on the Champions League and stuff like that. So there is a scope. We do have, as I mentioned earlier, we've got an interview next week with someone.

from the Purple Cobras who, actually funny enough, it got announced today. It was like they must have been listening in to the interview, but we mentioned that is the way rugby needs to push forward, is somebody like the Saudis or Qatar or something like that got to come in and pump some serious money into it. We joked that they were putting money into snooker and stuff like that, so why won't they do it to rugby?

And then today, obviously, it's been announced that they want to, that the Qataris are looking at putting some money in and trying to create the Super Bowl of rugby. And I know the purists look at it and laugh and scorn it and say, we can't be doing this to our game. But our game is not going to last forever if we, if we keep on ignoring that everything comes down to financial backing of the masses. And sadly, obviously a lot of it is going to be coming from

that region, the Middle East, as I mentioned in the next interview podcast, that's potentially for other people to discuss. I agree that there's many negatives, there's also many positives. We're not a political show, that could turn pretty nasty pretty quickly, so I'm not going to get involved in that. My passion is for the game and for rugby to grow and for everyone to be able to have an opportunity on every platform.

Looking through obviously the current rugby structure in the UK, we've got 11 tiers of rugby and there's pretty much one that's ring -fenced. And now the second one is ring -fenced as well. However, how long is that gonna be ring -fenced for? Are you gonna get the opportunity to play that as a pretty much professional level? Probably not, unless there's some significant money coming in. There's obviously a lot of money gone into America.

as well. So America are looking at pumping a lot of money into rugby and managed to really get some good financing behind their MLR league, which is brilliant to see. But where does that continue within the rest of the rugby community? Is that going to be divvied out or are people going to have to potentially sell their soul to?

to departments that they may not agree. So there's another stat the other day that the sort of funding that's been allocated over the recent years to rugby. So in 2018, CVC Capital Partners invested 225 million into the Premiership Rugby and received a 27 % stake.

Roughly based off that, they assumed back in 2018 that Premiership Rugby would be valued in the billion pound mark. Is that the case now that there's only 10 clubs, possibly others to follow with the downside? Are they going to get their return on investment? Is this why they've had to go and sell every game to the likes of TNT to...

to try and resurrect that investment or is that money gonna solely go back into rugby and cascade down through the tiers The pessimist inside me does not think that that will be the case. I know that there'll probably be others that says that that's what's gonna happen. CVC have also in 2020 chucked 120 million into the United Rugby Championship, the URC.

they received a 28 % stake. So that's obviously now gathered additional teams since the inclusion of the South African clubs. Based off of that, that only values the URC at half a billion as an investment vessel. Is that probably right? They might have seen an increase on that, but where does that increase go? Does that?

any increase in the value go back into the clubs? Does it go back into grassroots rugby? Does it cascade down? Or is this just literally we are as a sport being taken over by investment partners that want to see their return but don't have any plans for future progression of the game below? Or are they leaving that down to the RFU, the WRU, the IRF, et cetera, et cetera?

CVC also put their hand in their pocket in 2020 for 365 million into Six Nations Rugby. So they received a 14 % stake, which rough maths on that. They will probably value that in the 2 .4 billion range, which is exceptional. But if you, as an investor bought,

or had to put your hand in your pocket for...

Football across Six Nations, you're probably looking at a 2 .4 billion pound investment for 14%, not that being the whole pot that's available for Six Nations Rugby. It's been brilliant to see that they've really tried to push Six Nations Rugby recently as well. It's available on a lot more platforms. I think their marketing team have done an exceptional job to really push.

that as well and also stepping out of the shadows and letting...

the women's Six Nations get the proper limelight that it deserves, not having to have it tagged on before or after the men's game. So I think that's really probably helped the Six Nations brand push forward and the accessibility to both.

Both the men and the women's game, because it doesn't, it's not like when you used to go to Twickenham and they said, oh, the game's on beforehand or the game's on afterwards. If you bought a ticket for the men's game, you get to watch the women's afterwards. And the shame that you'd see everyone making an exit for the, for the, after the game, because that's it. They've seen the men's, there was the diehard and more than willing to stay around and watch the women's game, because there was some times that...

there was an exceptional standard that's probably even better than the England men's team. But there was, as I mentioned in the first one, the Hooray Henrys that had gone there, they're not interested in the rest of it. So the women's have now got their exact limelight and I think that has really helped the branding piece as well. So I'm hoping that's part of that CVC investment that's allowed them to push it forward. But why has that not worked on Premiership Rugby? Why has that not worked on the URC as well?

I think the URC, you can only now watch it in the UK on Premier Sport or something like that, which a lot of people don't have because they're not interested. It's another subscription on top of another subscription offered. And then there's games that are just really innocuous that don't have decent timings and they're in competition with other games that, as Polly mentioned, they'd prefer to put on. So...

The URC doesn't seem to have worked as well in that sense, by the looks of it. I know that they've brought in some really good South African teams, which is brilliant to see. Glasgow are obviously dominating the current league at the minute, at the top of the table. So hopefully that's really supported them in their development. But how long before that?

starts to fall apart because it's got to be underpinned by further investment and other models. In 2023, Silver Lake invested 200 million New Zealand dollars into New Zealand Rugby to receive 7 .5 % stake, which is...

a massive, massive payment for a 7 .5 % stake that basically roughly values New Zealand rugby just over £2 billion, which is phenomenal to be honest, because when you look at it on the All Blacks and obviously Super Rugby, would you value it at £2 billion? Probably the brand, yeah. But does that...

warrant that sort of valuation potentially. It's like if it supports the leagues below as well. And you obviously mentioned it in the next podcast that the NPC contracts allows people to be able to develop in their own time in New Zealand, which is great to see. Just because you've hit a certain age doesn't mean that you're written off in New Zealand. You could still get an NPC contract when you're 29, 30.

If you're putting an absolute shift in and super rugby, they're not worried about whether you've come through the academy system and done the hard yards in that sense. As long as you've done the hard yards and can make a difference for the all blacks, you're available. And I think that's a big, big deficit for a lot of other countries as well. I was speaking to somebody else the other day about the Irish set up as well. So you've obviously got the four provinces. And...

there's the All -Ireland League below. So there's a lot of lads that have come out of the likes of the Leinster or the Ulster system for one way or the other, whether they've not had the day that they thought or they've made a mistake on their way through, opted that they haven't made it, but still probably some of the best players you'll come across in their position in their time. However, they didn't quite make the level to make.

the province teams, however, they're now playing their trade in the All -Ireland League, getting paid half decent packet, but they could still probably do a job in an international shirt or stuff like that. It's the same in football. It doesn't seem to be, especially in England, there's players that have dropped out of the Premier League, stay with their clubs, gone to the championship. There's not many that still get a look in.

whereas you go across to other parts of the world and they have to look up and down the divisions as well, which I don't think we seem to do in rugby. There's probably players out there, I know there's the old saying of international rugby is completely different to club rugby and I do agree. But obviously if you're not inviting players in or around the training squad or giving people opportunities within England A, et cetera.

is how do you know that they're not to that standard? There's usually a reason that we've got development squads and surely that's the opportunity to look at players that are ready for development or have the opportunity for development, not just going through the same players that we know pretty much what they can do, but are still some that are just not quite good enough, even though they've pretty much cemented a shirt for some reason or the other.

More recently, Ackley Sports Group in 2024 invested a further $75 million into South African Rugby Union to receive a 20 % stake. So that is...

basically only a 400 million US dollar valuation for South African rugby, which for a lot of countries, they seem to lean on the South African development teams to underpin their development squads as well. So obviously Scotland have got.

their own contingent of the South African brigade. There's others that have come through. Obviously Spain have had to use a few players that have come across and it helps a lot of countries. But does that also stifle the development of the players below? There's obviously in football you've now got the homegrown talent rule, but that's so weak for a lot of...

clubs, they have to have a certain amount of players, but it's maybe five. So it's nowhere near what it used to be. But obviously in New Zealand, if you want to play for New Zealand, you have to play in New Zealand. Same as England, but it doesn't, it hasn't worked out because the Premiership hasn't got the facilities or the funding now to survive or offset players going over to France and earning their big payday.

unless we're going to keep churning over squads every four years once they've got to a certain age in England and then they disappear off to France or a rule cap's changed or however that development piece has got to happen, there's got to be some big changes within.

the system itself and we've got to shine that light and underpin the rest of English rugby and not have to keep leaning on the RFU and the Premiership to support, potentially support the rest of the leagues. Whereas obviously in football as well, you've got the same issue with the Premiership says they have to support the football league.

If rugby and that was able to sort of step out of the shadows and we found a way of the championship funding themselves, there was a way to fund that and cascade it down. We wouldn't have to keep having this handout system, which only funnels and reduces money coming in of one part and it's got to come out of one part pot of funding to go into another pot of funding, which is going to stop either a development system or it's going to stop.

one part of rugby being able to progress because it's had to be taken out of another pot of funding. So media, TV rights is where the big money comes in. That's obviously, that's what gives exposure. We also don't really have any big names in rugby. We've got the ones that have come to the end of their career and obviously realized they've got to go and create their own industry afterwards. The likes of obviously Joe Marler and James Haskell.

They've all managed to create their brands towards the end. The rugby they had, obviously they had their identities throughout and they were probably the only ones that sort of had a level of character. But the rest of them all seemed to toe the line and sort of keep themselves to themselves. And unfortunately, as a professional sport, sometimes you need a maverick that can bring attention. And obviously the amount of attention for the likes of say Maradona or Eric Cantona.

They obviously weren't the best behaved, but they also had something to bring the media to the sport, as well as everyone else being addicted to the rest of the game. Rugby doesn't seem to have that, and it doesn't seem to have the same impact on the media as football does. But I think that's because it doesn't have the same exposure as football either. So...

We need to find a way of allowing players to express themselves, but also still protect the core value of the game.

And that's a hard balance for them. And they've probably got media training more times than they have actual rugby training at sometimes because a lot of people are more worried about upsetting people and putting themselves out of line and then probably putting themselves out of a job, which because there's not as many leagues to drop down into and still make a living, they've kind of got to protect that. So because we haven't got a tiered system, we won't allow a lot of mavericks or...

or personalities come out of the game at the minute. And that's a real shame from a publicity point of view and a way of growing the game and making it accessible for kids. You're not gonna see many kids running around with Marler on their shirt anymore. The likes of Haskell, Beauden Barrett, there's probably...

lads down in New Zealand running around because they're all kept within and that is a rugby country. Whereas we're also battling against three, four, five other different sports in the likes of England and Spain. We've got to find, you've got to find somebody that's got to help drag that superstar.

icon out of players to be able to push the game as well as the funding comes to follow. Rugby Australia are currently seeking 300 million Australian dollars for a minority stake as well. So a lot of countries are realizing they need funding, but is this just the initial funding is a sticky plaster or is this being used?

with an ambition to find a long -term goal for the clubs. And I don't expect that is, I think it is that sticky plaster level at the minute. And it really worries me that in five years' time, if something doesn't happen, like money coming in from the Saudis or the Qataris, is the beautiful game gonna...

disappear. Is there going to be a risk that a lot of these premiership clubs start going bust? Are they going to have to be completely restructured? Are they going to have to come in and privatise these clubs, which is never going to happen, it's an impossibility. But you can't see a whole league disappear. There's obviously a lot of clubs that don't...

have potentially the funding for a long period of time. I think the likes of Newcastle are self -funded by their owner, who's done a brilliant job so far. But again, they're so far out, obviously up north, there's no clubs around that are local rivalries. There probably is, but obviously not as close in the premiership. A lot of clubs have got to go and travel a long way.

there will be fans that go away for Newcastle away, which is massively, massively respectful, but cost of living crisis at the minute as well, cost a couple of quid to get up there as well. It takes forever. You probably got to take a day or two off work. If you're self -employed, you're already in the hole for a good sort of 500 quid plus just to go see your team up at Newcastle away for a weekend at least. So it's a big investment for a lot of people and...

There's probably a lot of people, same with football, same with other sports as well. It's not just rugby, but if we don't find a solution now, if the next boom cycle comes in the funding, everyone sort of gets on that euphoria wave and we've all got money to spend because the government has done whatever they've done. We then come out the other side, we've got another recession. How many clubs are actually going to survive the next recession? Because they've...

not being able to utilize the funding or raise the correct funding and create that development model to survive the next recession. It's the same in a business cycle. You might be able to fly off the moon on the wave up, but they're not preparing for the recession cycle on the other side. I really fear that rugby's going to potentially take that boom in the next...

the next recession cycle as well. This recession's possibly one too early, but we've already lost quite a few clubs. How many are gonna go on the next cycle round? And it's terrifying to think that about 10 clubs in the premiership could be four clubs, could be six clubs, could be no clubs in five, six years' time if they're not funded or prepared in the next...

The next few years, so it's definitely a cycle we need to keep abreast of on the podcast and see how the funding's coming in and out of rugby and how that's cascaded down through the leagues as well to allow a lot of other clubs to develop. I think obviously big money coming into the industry as well through America.

will probably shine a big light on it as well with the MLR gathering pace and the college universities, which will also automatically bring money into the game. It's just how many players are going to use that as their retirement pot as well as France? Are we going to lose a lot of players to America because they're going to pay them bigger money because they've got the audiences? They've found a way of marketing that appeals to the masses as well over there.

Is there a lot of things that we can look at doing that they do? American sports seem to have a way of creating a hype and euphoria around what they do and what they brand. I don't think we do that in Europe as well, anywhere near as well, to be honest. We're very basic with our marketing pieces and how the...

players are pushed to stand out. So.

The...

The current model for English Rugby, in my opinion, is a big sticky plaster to protect.

the top tiers. I know that's a big statement and probably not agreed by a lot. However, there is a lot of protection being put in place for these 10 clubs that doesn't allow opportunities for other clubs to grow. And the likes of Ealing Trail Finders are probably the worst affected. They've literally single -handedly pushed that championship every season.

with a team coming down, coming up, et cetera, run other clubs really close, but once they finally got their opportunity, the door was closed on them. And I don't think that's fair. There's clearly a protection bubble around the premiership for the brand. And unless that is sort of broken or a way of the brand.

supporting the tiers below, it could potentially be the death of English rugby, in my opinion. So on top of that bombshell, next week I'll also discuss with our guest, is Welsh rugby dead or on its way to being dead because of the same system being set up by the WRU that does not want to listen to anything that anyone wants to say. They're doing their own thing.

setting up their own model and have forced out into the regions and below. So that will obviously be discussed next week. A lot of bombshells being dropped here already. So hopefully, hopefully we get a few conversations going in the comments and opinions coming back because everyone's got an opinion and.

A lot of people probably see a lot more than I do or others do as well. So it'd be great to hear everyone else's opinion and sort of potentially gather that together and review some of those statements that I've made based on that further information. So leading on to another progressive part within rugby Europe as well. So I mentioned on the first podcast that the rugby championship had recently finished.

Obviously, you've got the team this season. There's a current model that allows promotion and relegation between the...

rugby championship, the rugby trophy, the rugby conference and then down into the development. So we've recently had the rugby championship finished that worked in a two year cycle which allows eight teams to start with which were started off with

individual group systems so we've got pool A, pool B, we've got Georgia in pool A, Spain, Netherlands and Germany. pool B was Portugal, Romania, Belgium and Poland. So Georgia obviously won pool A with 14 points, Spain finished second on nine points, Netherlands on third on six, Germany finished bottom with pool A with zero points.

Portugal won Group B with 11 points. Romania come second on nine points. Belgium got nine points in third. Poland finished rock bottom. So, something to then throw into the mix. The...

The pools are then mixed together to create a ranking semi -final. So the top two teams out of each pool are taken out of the pot. You then play two semi -finals. So Netherlands played Poland. Netherlands won 54 -7. Belgium played Germany and Germany won 21 -11. So Germany finished bottom of...

their pool, but have managed to beat Belgium, who won two of their games and finished third in their pool, which then allowed Netherlands to play Germany in the fifth and sixth playoff final, which Netherlands won 45 -0. Seventh and eighth playoff was between Poland and Belgium. Belgium won against Poland, which means Poland have now been relegated from

the Rugby Europe Championship into the Rugby Europe Trophy. The tournament was obviously won by Georgia, as we discussed in the first one. The final was between Georgia and Portugal. Georgia beat Romania 43 -5 on the way through to that. Portugal and Spain put up one hell of a shift against each other as well, and Portugal come out 33 -30 winners

Spain managed to finish third in the end by beating Romania 40 -19. So great day of a championship rugby as well, because they hold that all in one day. So you get four games of international rugby for four finals effectively. So there's not many days that you can go and see that level of international rugby all in one go. So

that was held in March, so when that next comes around, we'll be popping along there, hopefully trying to get some interviews and get some footage for everyone to see the spectacle that is the Rugby Europe Championship finals. So it's an exceptional day out by the looks of it. Cheap as chips as well in comparison to a lot of stuff. So.

it would be great to see. So in the next installment of the Rugby Championships though, that will be joined by Switzerland. So Switzerland managed to win the men's trophy. So massive shout out to Switzerland. They finished the league, top of the league with 22 points. Sweden come in second on 18 points. Czechia come in third on 14. Croatia...

fourth on 11 points, Lithuania with four points in fifth, and Ukraine finished bottom with no points. Obviously potentially a few other concerns for Ukraine than the rugby at the minute. Obviously not able to hold any of their games at home either, so I think they had to play all of theirs at other venues. So a lot of obviously countries had to accommodate that, so.

Shame to see them get relegated. Hopefully they get a chance to get everything tidied up and able to focus back again on their rugby a little bit more in the next few years. So some big score lines as well in the Rugby Europe Trophy. With Switzerland beating Ukraine on the final day, 68 -0. Sweden beat Ukraine 36 -24.

the week before that as well. So Ukraine put up a big shift there as well. Switzerland pretty much dominated most games that they competed in, scoring well over 30 points nearly every time out as well. So there's...

There's a big depth of rugby ability, what seems, in the men's trophy. So, good chance for Sweden to hopefully state their claim next time round if Poland don't bounce back from dropping down a league. Could work for Poland, it could work against them, because obviously if they cascade down, a lot of clubs and countries...

Relegation doesn't always work well for them, but sometimes it also helps their improvement. So hopefully for Poland that works in their favour. Ukraine looks like they've been relegated to the Men's Conference League, which is currently being played at the minute. So that's divided into four separate pools. So there is...

here actually to be fair. So we've got Latvia in pool A with Denmark, Finland, Andorra and Norway. Latvia are leading the charge at the minute with 15 points, Denmark in second on 12, Finland third on nine, Andorra fourth with five points, Norway propping up the table with no points scored currently. Pool B is Luxembourg, Hungary,

Austria, Slovenia and Bosnia -Herzegovina. Luxembourg, 19 points, top of their league. Four wins, hundred and 88 points scored so far. So they seem to be putting some serious points on the board as well. I wanna look at the fixtures and the results again in a minute. They've done very well so far, Luxembourg. Pool C is Moldova, Bulgaria.

Turkey and Serbia. So Moldova at top alongside Bulgaria, both on nine points. Moldova on top on points difference by the looks of it currently. Turkey third on four points. And Serbia propping up the table with no points picked up so far. Pool D is Malta, Cyprus and Israel.

Only one game has been played there so far and Malta beat Cyprus 22 -17. So Israel obviously with their current situation on there potentially won't have many games or will have to play their games in other areas of Europe to allow their attempt on the men's conference pool. Recent results.

Standout results here, so got one here. Luxembourg beat Slovenia 84 -7. I think I saw the highlights the other day. They've got a rather large eight, I can't remember his name now, and I'm not gonna attempt to try and say that, not after the first podcast attempt of names. I don't need to put that upon anyone again. Managed to break out of the scrum, and literally just nobody was stopping him. He was absolute.

monster, destroying players. So maybe Luxembourg are the next ones to sort of come up out of the men's conference piece. There's probably going to be a brackets of play of tournament at the end as well to see who goes up. So one to look out for in a minute would be Luxembourg. Denmark managed to put...

A nice little local rivalry win on Norway by winning 41 -5. So that's a great one to see. Hungary seem to hold Luxembourg back a little bit more than Slovenia. So Hungary only lost 15 -18 in Hungary to Luxembourg. So that seems to, that could be a big battle if they've managed to get to each other in the bracket at the end, in the semi -finals and the finals, et cetera.

Austria managed to beat Bosnia 57 -17 so that's a decent win for them. Latvia managed to beat Norway 53 -8 so another big score line. Bulgaria managed to beat Turkey 40 -24. Latvia put another 46 points to Finland 17 the other week as well. Luxembourg done again, Bosnia.

5910 so there's been some big score lines so far in the in the conference with some great score lines to see so far. We've also managed to get the fixtures

So we've got further rugby conference fixtures still to play before the pools are finished. So Malta are away to Cyprus in the return leg from their recent victory. So Cyprus will potentially be looking for some points to take that gap away. Norway go to Andorra. So maybe Norway get their opportunity to get some first points on the board.

This is all on the four for the fifth, so that's this weekend coming up. So if you're looking for games to watch, if you get onto rugbyeurope .tv, you get to watch the games on there for free. Great quality, able to watch it with whatever language, commentary you want as well, I believe. So free subscription, sign up, get it on your...

Get it on your telly, get it on your laptop, let your kids watch whatever they're watching on the telly and put this on your laptop and watch some other games. Cyprus against Malta, not many people would be expecting to put that on a Saturday. But, who's to say we can't spread the word and spread the love around the game. It'll be great to see. Norway Andorra I reckon probably could be a big game there. Norway have got to really turn it around by the looks of it. So...

That could be a good game to watch. On the 11th they go to Finland. They've got a home game against Finland as well, so that could be a big game. As I said, to be confirmed, we've got the Cyprus -Israel game, Israel -Malta, Israel -Cyprus, and Malta -Israel. So there's still games to confirm, which I believe is going to probably withhold the semi -final set -up.

back a little bit potentially because it will depend on how the format will allow people to play. We then also got the development division, which is great to see, which gives a clear path for how clubs are able to get into the Rugby Europe Championships, etc. Currently only two teams, Montenegro and Kosovo,

they've paid each other twice now once at home once away and Currently Montenegro atop of the league because they won the return leg To two weeks ago now, they won 35 12 whereas Kosovo managed to win 27 -0 Against Montenegro in the first leg. So they are literally divided

by a bonus point. So Montenegro on five points, Kosovo 'Ivoire on four. I believe that will, whatever team gets relegated out of the conference will be supplemented by one of the teams out of the development. Hopefully after a few more than just two games, I need to clarify how that model works.

how they slide in and out of the development and if there's other teams coming through as well.

Spain recently won the

Rugby Europe Championship, women's, destroying everyone because Spain's great. But we obviously managed to win all three games against Netherlands, Portugal and Sweden. So Spain won all three games, ended up on 14 points. Netherlands managed to win two, draw one.

to finish on 10. Portugal come third, 1 -1 lost 2, finished on 5, Sweden lost all three games. I am not sure how the Netherlands drew a game on here though. I believe that should be classed as a loss because nobody else drew. So unless there's a team in there that nobody's aware of, drop that in the comments as well if you want.

pretty sure that's a typo on the Rugby Europe website. So.

As we said, we've gone through the current structure of rugby in England. We've got the current structure of the Rugby Europe Championships. Looking at trying to delve further into these in between upcoming interviews, we have got an interview sorted for the next podcast with Sy Pickett from the Purple Cobras, who was mentioned in the first interview with Polly.

we've got him on board to discuss the sevens scene, where he started, how he started, where his rugby journey's taken him. The Navy scene as well, the development, which has managed to support the likes of Devonport Services and Plymouth Albion and the other sort of local Southwest teams or other clubs that are near a Naval base that are able to get their hands on players that...

are out of the under 23s or the under 20 system, et cetera, in the Navy, which has now put a serious competition together for Army -Navy. Another big shout out, Army -Navy is again this weekend, so there'll be plenty of coaches descending upon Twickenham, plenty of fancy dress, plenty of questionable activities. However, it is a great day out for rugby, for fraternity.

As I mentioned earlier as well, me and Si discuss is Welsh rugby dead? Coming from an avid Welsh fan, I thought I can ask anyone else. Obviously being English, a lot of people class it as bias, so I thought I'd ask it from an avid Welsh fan. So we find that bombshell out next week. And...

It's quite an interesting listen to how Welsh rugby is.

has developed itself, whether it's in the same situation as English rugby currently with the RFU and the WRU deciding how to protect certain assets rather than the actual continuity of rugby throughout the community. So plenty more to go through.

Obviously in the coming podcasts, got another guest, big guest lined up after Si Still working on that, trying to add more guests, hopefully off the back of this or off the back of future interviews we can get a few more in. Try and minimize the amount of times that I've got to sit here and rabble on at you guys about rugby and many divisions. I do want to cap this section off with a big shout out to the...

S16's Aguiles rugby. We went up to Valencia at the weekend after the Valencian team, UCV, didn't respond to us all week. We finally got a confirmation we had the game sorted for a quarter to three kickoff. With an hour and a bit bus journey up on being notified the day before, managed to turn up. Few players dropping out because of...

a bit of a sickness bug and some injuries rolling around. We went up to UCV on their home turf and they were unbeaten on top of the league and we managed to beat them 40 -27. So massive shout out to Aguiles rugby. Big plans for what we plan on doing next season. Great development piece on how we're trying to open that up to the rest of the community and allow.

as much rugby passion be involved within Spain and the Spanish communities. So a lot of work to do over the summer with the players and obviously with the community. But big shout out to the S16s and the other clubs, the Escuela that are also playing this weekend up in Valencia. So big shout out to Aguiles Rugby. So more to go, but...

Hopefully we can try and avoid me rambling on you guys a little bit too much with getting some more guests on. What do you reckon?

Carl (57:03)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you've made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and to express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues. So in today's episode, we discussed the current rugby structure in England and its potential downfall for the beautiful game. We also looked into the movers and shakers in funding in rugby across the globe and their impact.

We finished with the Rugby Europe Championship model and the club's affected by promotion and relegation. In the next episode, we have another great guest on, Si Pickett from the Purple Cobras, who founded the Seven Social Team with the ambition to spread the word around epilepsy after his daughter's diagnosis. We also discuss his rugby journey and the big question, is Welsh rugby dead? A big shout out to the teams mentioned today.

for their promotions into their respective new leagues and commiserations to the teams that were relegated. And a huge thank you to all of you for tuning in. Thank you and goodbye.